.308 Win and 155gr Scenar powder choice ... Varget, IMR 4895 or Reloder 15?


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1858
November 16, 2009, 11:03 PM
I need to work up a .308 Win load this weekend for the Lapua 155gr Scenar and don't have the luxury of a few weekends to do it. I need the "best" load in one outing to the range for a class that's coming up in two weeks. I don't want to choose the wrong powder and waste valuable time. I'll be using Lapua brass and CCI 200 primers. I have Varget, IMR 4895 and Reloder 15 on hand. Does anyone have a suggestion as to the "best" powder. I do have a CED M2 chronograph so I should get some good data re the velocity so that I can generate a ballistic table out to 1000 yards (max range of targets).

Thanks.
:)

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Redneck with a 40
November 16, 2009, 11:13 PM
Based on the performance I'm getting from my 168 gr Nosler HPBT loads, I'd go with IMR-4895.

BullfrogKen
November 16, 2009, 11:55 PM
I'm low on IMR 4895 myself or I'd have something already developed using it.

Never tried R-15.


My 155 Scenar load is -

46.5 gr Varget
CCI LR primer
2.800" OAL (although to be honest, these Scenars seem to not care at all about jumping into the lands)


Do keep in ming that the Scenar doesn't do nearly as well in the wind as the more traditional 1,000 yard, heavier bullets. That might be a factor this time of year. If you find yourself frustrated with it, pay attention to wind conditions and do your best to shoot in the lull.

Kernel
November 17, 2009, 01:40 AM
My modified Powley Computer likes Varget the best. RL-15 is right there, to the fast side. Close enough that I'd try it out if I had time. IMO 4895 is a couple of steps too fast for best results. However, in a gas gun it might be the way to go. All three would work, but IMO Varget is the most promising.
http://images5a.snapfish.com/232323232%7Ffp63254%3Enu%3D3645%3E%3A57%3E257%3EWSNRCG%3D32544%3A57%3A9348nu0mrj

USSR
November 17, 2009, 08:07 AM
1858,

Stop into Sniper's Hide and inquire about this. Several years ago there was a poster there that did extensive load development with the 155gr Scenar in .308. He swore by IMR4895.

Don

1858
November 17, 2009, 11:00 AM
Do keep in ming that the Scenar doesn't do nearly as well in the wind as the more traditional 1,000 yard, heavier bullets.

I thought the high velocity and high BC of the Scenar worked in its favor in terms of wind. On paper it looks better than the 178gr A-MAX that I'm currently using.

Don, I did a search on Sniper's Hide before starting this thread and noticed that many threads there become pissing matches with lots of name calling making it hard to figure out who actually knows what they're talking about.


Thanks everyone for your replies.
:)

delta5
November 17, 2009, 12:29 PM
How would BL-C(2) work in this application?

1858
November 17, 2009, 12:42 PM
delta5, I don't know but it's not a powder I have on hand. I have more than 40lb of Varget, IMR 4895 and Reloder 15 so it has to be one of those for me.

:)

delta5
November 17, 2009, 01:01 PM
I would say you cant go wrong with 4895 or Varget. I have not used Reloader 15 yet.

allain
November 17, 2009, 02:56 PM
at my range. These were the hollow points at 100 yards with IMR4895. Amazing accuracy with a stock Rem 700 VKLS. As good or better than the 168 gr. Match Kings. Again, it was only 100 & 200 yards.

FWIW.

Roy

BullfrogKen
November 17, 2009, 05:41 PM
I thought the high velocity and high BC of the Scenar worked in its favor in terms of wind. On paper it looks better than the 178gr A-MAX that I'm currently using.

I've spent a few 6 hour days at the 1,000 yard range now with both my 175gr Sierra MK loads, and my 155 gr Scenars.


The Scenars are great for distance. On calm days.


I have less drop with the Scenar, b/c it's got almost the identical B.C. with roughly 250 fps faster at the muzzle.

At 1,000 yards (3,000 feet) the difference of time in flight is less than 2/10ths of a second. It's not traveling fast enough to beat the wind significantly better than the heavier bullet, especially the heavier winds I see in the poor weather months of the year. All things being equal, the heavier bullets are less affected by the wind. To see the speed make up for what it gives up in mass, the time of flight would have to be about a half a second faster. In my opinion anyway.


The experiences of the long range competitors around here all mention similar observations. Those 155 gr Scenars are great b/c they have less drop, but they don't do as well in wind. It's not so bad 500 yards and in, but the nearer you come to 1,000 the more erratic they print in the wind. More accurately, the more the wind seems to affect them, and the better you must become and either discipline yourself to only shoot with the similar prevailing wind conditions, or get really good at doping for the minor changes.


Hey, don't just take my word on the matter. Try it out for yourself.


Either IMR 4895 or Varget should provide you excellent results. The difference between the two is so marginal that you'd likely not even notice.

wade rigsby
November 17, 2009, 07:10 PM
try 4895 the powder is very good choice if not best in 308 and 06.

ACP230
November 17, 2009, 08:52 PM
I have made a lot of NRA Highpower and hunting loads with both IMR and H4895.
It's my favorite for .308 and .30-06 loads.

1858
November 17, 2009, 08:55 PM
I ran the three powders in QuickLOAD to see if anything stands out. I used the internal capacity of the Lapua cases that I have to see how much powder results in 62,000 psi. I also ran BullfrogKen's load using my Lapua cases. At this point IMR 4895 looks like it might be the best choice.

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/ballistics/lapua_155gr_scenar/varget_max.jpg

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/ballistics/lapua_155gr_scenar/imr4895_max.jpg

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/ballistics/lapua_155gr_scenar/re15_max.jpg

http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/ballistics/lapua_155gr_scenar/varget.jpg

:)

M ammo
November 17, 2009, 08:57 PM
Varget and RL15
Are just about the same.

You can't go wrong with any of these powders.


Jim M ammo

USSR
November 17, 2009, 10:15 PM
1858,

Did some "digging" for ya:

45.5gr IMR4895
Lapua Brass
155gr Lapua Scenar
210 Primer
2.83 OAL (max mag length)

46.4gr IMR4895
BHA/Win Brass
155gr Lapua Scenar
210 Primer
2.83 OAL

Don

1858
November 17, 2009, 10:25 PM
Don, thanks SO much!! I really appreciate your help with this. I'll show some results when I have them. It might help others in the same situation.

:)

Kernel
November 17, 2009, 10:31 PM
1858,

I noticed all the loads you show have a load density that exceeds 100% and are accompanied by the words "DO NOT USE THIS LOAD" and "DANGER: Load exceeds Maximum Average Pressure!"

While I admit it's been awhile since I played around with QuickLoad, those would seem to be the kinds of RED FLAGS that would cause me to take pause and question the viability and safety of those particular loads and/or the assumptions leading into them.

In particular it is noteworthy that the Lapua cases only hold 54.4 grains of H20. 56 is more typical. That alone could be throwing everything else off, causing the high load densities and pressures.

Varget and RL15 Are just about the same.
That's true, but I think RL15 is just a hair faster. Would be curious if anyone else had an opinion.

1858
November 17, 2009, 10:36 PM
Kernal, very good points but I only wanted to see which powder did what with one set of conditions. These aren't the starting loads. As for the capacity of my Lapua cases, I filled three once-fired cases with water and then emptied the water into a weighing pan (not all at once but I could have I suppose). The values were 54.2gr, 54.3gr and 54.6gr. I just wanted to get a some sort of idea so that I could run QuickLOAD.

Also, I'm new at QuickLOAD so I could have screwed up somewhere.

:)

Ridgerunner665
November 17, 2009, 11:11 PM
Awww what the heck...I can't help it, I like this forum (don't ask, the ones that are involved will know what that means)

That's true, but I think RL15 is just a hair faster. Would be curious if anyone else had an opinion.

It depends on what bullet weight you are shooting (in 308), and it also varies back and forth with different calibers...in the 308, with heavier bullets (175 and up) Varget burns a tad faster than RL 15.

My go to powder for the 308 is RL 15, but I've never shot the light bullets (155's). RL 15 has been just as accurate for me as Varget, and it does it with more velocity. (about 60 more fps with 168-175 grain bullets)

Myself...I never could get any consistency out of IMR 4895, it would put up some impressive velocity but always with a very high ES.

Again...all that is based on my experience and none of it is with 155 Scenars. I don't compete, never have...but I've fired a few rounds at long range.

Kernel
November 17, 2009, 11:39 PM
1858,

First, you definitely want to use your cases’ case capacity in the input screen. What ever it is. Lapua must just have some thick brass.

Second, in load programs like these you want the program to tell YOU how much powder to use. You don’t tell the program. Even if it let’s you force a powder weight.

It’s much better if you tell the program what Load Density you prefer (which, in Quick Load case looks like it’s listed as “Filling/L.R.”. I assume L.R. means Load Ratio).

A load density between 85-102% will typically give the best results. The later being a compressed charge used with a slow powder. I will almost always use a load density between 86 and 94%. I’ve just found that to work best 99% of the time. Let the program tell YOU how much powder to use, based on your given load density.

If you have to pick the Powder and the Charge Weight, what exact benifit does the program provide? It's just a glorified reloading manual. Seems like you're doing all the work.

I'm remembering now what I didn't like about QuickLoad.

rundm
November 20, 2009, 07:18 AM
whatever the load is you need to run the lapua'a fast because that is what they like.

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