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Nicodemus38
November 16, 2009, 11:10 PM
ammo shortage is the word of the daits fun to look at ammunition from factory offerings and what you can roll at home yourself. here is an interesting look.

30-30 remington 150 gr soft point core lokt 20 round box, 14.99 before tax

150 gr spcl bullet, 100 @ 21.99 .2199/1
30-30 remington bulk case 100@ 28.99 .2899/1
remington primers 6 1/2 small 1000@ 30.99 .03099/1

roughly .54079 cents for a round minus cost of powder.
roughly .7495 cents per round loaded from the factory during anual sale at the local super outlet hunting store.

a difference of .20871 cents per round to use for powder. or a difference of
4.1742 dollars to purchase powder for the first 20 rnd box of reloads you make.



also at the local super chain, it costs 86 cents,non sale, for a single round of 230 grain fmj 45 acp from umc. the bullet and case for that round using remington components is 114.95for bullets and cases using the price per 100
at cabellas.
the box at the store holds 250 rounds @.86 each, for a total of 215 dollars before tax. the discrepency of 100.05 dollars to allow for remington to pay for primer, powder, and assembling it.

question, is it really logical to assume that their is an actual shortage of ammunition if i can buy the scarce components that the factories are claiming cant be made fast enough for assembly into loaded ammo by said factories for sale to general public?y, yet this is interesting to compute.

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John E.
November 16, 2009, 11:15 PM
Isn't the shortage the result of folks buying all the ammo they can as soon as it hits the shelves?

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 16, 2009, 11:30 PM
You forgot to include the initial ~$500 setup cost for reloading equipment, and also the time involved to do the work of reloading.

Also, your local shop is quite the rip off, Ammunitiontogo.com has American Eagle 230gr FMJ .45acp. $194.95 for 500 rounds. Factoring in the $10 shipping, that's ~$205. Or .41 cents a round, less than half of the .86.

scythefwd
November 17, 2009, 12:20 AM
TDK - You can get a fairly complete functional setup , minus dies, for about 100. It won't be top of the line, but it will reload your ammo for you.

TexasRifleman
November 17, 2009, 12:22 AM
It won't be top of the line, but it will reload your ammo for you.

Does your time have any value? Mine does. The low cost and slow speed reloading didn't work out in my mind. I tried it for a while but the hours spent for the return I got wasn't worth it.

It was fun to learn about reloading that way but it's pretty inefficient.

mljdeckard
November 17, 2009, 12:25 AM
Demand for raw components does not equal demand for finished ammo.

But most places, it's just as hard to get reloading components, particularly PRIMERS, as it is to get ammo right now.

R.W.Dale
November 17, 2009, 12:31 AM
just a couple of critques

150 gr spcl bullet, 100 @ 21.99 .2199/1

bullets are a good deal cheaper if you buy in quantity

30-30 remington bulk case 100@ 28.99 .2899/1
this cost only calculates in for the FIRST load compared to factory fodder that won't be reloaded by the non handloader

so if you say get bullets for $15 per 100 .15ea and eliminate the brass cost as would be the case with the second firing

$0.18 per round or $3.61 per box of 20 minus powder

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 17, 2009, 12:43 AM
Exactly, time being the most important factor of cost. Aside from the fact that ammo is actually back to decent prices, how fast can you reload? I would assume it is boring, tedious work after a while and a slip up due to inattention can cause some serious harm to you. I already showed 45acp at half your store's cost, and how long would it take to load 500 rounds approximately? Also I'm sure cheap sets are out there but I can't find any full setup on midwayusa for anywhere near $100.....

Double Naught Spy
November 17, 2009, 03:36 AM
question, is it really logical to assume that their is an actual shortage of ammunition if i can buy the scarce components that the factories are claiming cant be made fast enough for assembly into loaded ammo by said factories for sale to general public?y,

Regardless of the claims, if you can't get the ammo in the quantities you desire when you desire them and have not been able to do this for some time, there is a shortage where you are. Whether you want to call it an actual shortage or effective shortage does not matter as the end result is the same.

What I find interesting is that you make this query AFTER resources are available anew. So sure you can get components. You can get ammo as well. Prices are dropping slowly.

Does your time have any value? Mine does.

Ding ding ding dinggggg! We have a winner! Not only does my time have value, but it is in limited amounts. I seem to have something of a shortage of the amount of time I can dedicate to gun-related activities. If I am going to spend time on those activities, I would rather be shooting, hunting, working at my range, maintaining feeders, or taking care of my weapons to get ready to go shooting or hunting. I don't want to be spending the time stuck in the garage or a shop making ammo. Some folks enjoy it and that is great for them, but I see no pleasure in it and the $ savings are not equitable to the Time costs.

scythefwd
November 17, 2009, 04:16 AM
TDK - check out the lee anniversary kits. Single stage press.

TexasRifleman - No, when I am doing my hobbies... my time isn't worth anything. I wouldn't be making money during that time, and as a hobby you can bet it is what I would prefer doing. When working to make a living, my time is about 40 an hour... when I am playing and entertaining my self.... it's absolutely free.

Is your time worth the -20 dollars for the time you are shooting a box of ammo? Time, in and of itself is worth nothing. Either you spend it doing something you enjoy, or you spend it doing something you don't enjoy (which is why we usually require payment for it). When you are very lucky, you get to get paid for the time you spend going something you enjoy. How much value does your time have? Can it be measured monitarily?

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 17, 2009, 08:47 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong but single stage press means only 1 bullet at a time? And don't you need other stuff besides a press like a manual, scale, calipers, a table, etc?

Wingnut13
November 17, 2009, 09:07 AM
"lee anniversary kit" Kit..... has everything but powder, primers, bullets, and the appropriate die set. If your careful you can be loading with a good setup for under $150.

MMCSRET
November 17, 2009, 09:11 AM
I don't understand charging yourself labor rates(time?) for working with your hobby. Do you charge your buddy for helping him put new U-joints in his off road 4 wheel drive mudder? If you do then he should charge you for the ride out to the deer stand.
Or, and this just occurred to me, shooting is not a hobby, but a chore, like paying to have the lawn mowed, so you pay for ammo because your time is too expensive and you pay some one to shoot it for the same reason. Why bother?

youngda9
November 17, 2009, 09:59 AM
How about this:

30-30 remington 150 gr soft point core lokt 20 round box, 14.99 before tax

150 gr spcl bullet, 100@21.99 .2199/1
30-30 remington bulk case 100@28.99 .029/10 (can re-load the cases 10 times)
remington primers 6 1/2 small 1000@30.99 .03099/1
Powder $22/lb, Lb=7000grains, 35grain max load in 30-30 for 200 shots per pound, $22/200=$0.11

roughly $0.39 for a round, $7.80 per box of 20.
roughly $0.75 per round loaded from the factory during anual sale at the local super outlet hunting store.

a difference of $0.36 per round. or a difference of $7.19 per box of 20.

highorder
November 17, 2009, 10:05 AM
Do you charge your buddy for helping him put new U-joints in his off road 4 wheel drive mudder?

I'd be put off if he asked for my help and didn't offer beer when the job was done, so yes. ;)

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 10:25 AM
Does your time have any value? Mine does.

Do you also apply this logic to your range time? Man you need to get some free time and enjoy life and smell a rose or two. Another thought, do you hunt and apply the "total cost" of hunting to the price of meat harvested? Just wondering.

Justin
November 17, 2009, 10:52 AM
Exactly, time being the most important factor of cost. Aside from the fact that ammo is actually back to decent prices, how fast can you reload? I would assume it is boring, tedious work after a while and a slip up due to inattention can cause some serious harm to you. I already showed 45acp at half your store's cost, and how long would it take to load 500 rounds approximately? Also I'm sure cheap sets are out there but I can't find any full setup on midwayusa for anywhere near $100.....

I believe that Dillon posts the rounds per hour you can crank out on any of their presses. Given a lazy Saturday afternoon, it's not hard to make a thousand or so rounds of pistol ammo in a couple of hours.

Ultimately, however, it becomes an issue of economics. If you only shoot occasionally, it probably doesn't make sense to buy a reloading press. If, on the other hand, you intend to compete or shoot with any serious regularity, a press becomes a necessity.
Not only is it possible to make ammunition for less than what it costs at the store or online, it's also possible to load ammunition that is much more consistent as well.

I don't enjoy reloading, I consider it a chore much like doing the dishes or laundry. However, I do enjoy shooting a great deal. Without the ability to reload, I wouldn't be able to shoot nearly as often.

TexasRifleman
November 17, 2009, 10:56 AM
Do you also apply this logic to your range time?

The original argument was that reloading saved money. It does not, especially with the low volume systems. It's fun, it's entertaining, it's relaxing, it's better for accuracy most of the time but you can't argue that it saves any money since your time has value.

Justin
November 17, 2009, 11:00 AM
Ultimately, it probably boils down to what your hourly salary is, how many rounds you can load in an hour. I've seen Xcel spreadsheets that allow a reloader to keep track of his costs, to include time.

chuckusaret
November 17, 2009, 11:06 AM
Was looking at the Dillion equipment but I just ordered a Lee to play with to see if I would enjoy reloading. If I don't I did not waste a bunch of money.

LEE 50th Anniversary Kit #90050 $134.00
http://www.leeprecision.com/html/catalog/anivers.html

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 11:06 AM
Aahhhh the joys of being retired, and not having to be concerned about hourly rates, overtime, salary ect., ect. Was able to retire at 58 years and believe me I'M LOVING EVERY MINUTE OF IT.

TexasRifleman
November 17, 2009, 11:07 AM
I've seen Xcel spreadsheets that allow a reloader to keep track of his costs, to include time.

Yep, I've played with those too.

When I was shooting IPSC and going through 500-600 rounds a week it worked out, cranking the Dillon, all that. But even then just barely and that was back 10 years ago when primers were not made of gold.

Reloading for financials just doesn't seem to work out for me any more. I still do it but I don't kid myself about the reasons.

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 11:11 AM
Was looking at the Dillion equipment but I just ordered a Lee to play with to see if I would enjoy reloading. If I don't I did not waste a bunch of money.



It' good to learn on a single stage anyway, plus when you upgrade you have a press to use for small batch load workups.

kanook
November 17, 2009, 11:18 AM
I didn't see any post on how much fuel, ware and tear, and how many times you had to go to the store to see if they had what you wanted figured anywhere.

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 11:23 AM
Haven't convinced me. Just checked Blazer 45 acp ammo at Natchezz, on sale for $19.99 or 20 bucks a box of 50 rds. I can very easily reload 200 rounds an hour, and cost of components to reload 1 round for me amounts to less than 5 cents, thats $2.50 a box of 50 rds. This works out to approx $70.00 an hour, bretty good pay for a retired old farx.

And I didn't factor in shipping, but also didn't factor casting my own bullets. Leads free and can cast about 3 to 4 hundred an hour.

mustang_steve
November 17, 2009, 11:31 AM
Prices should be calc'd in k-level quantities...as in per 1,000.

Bullets, primers and powder are price x1 for obvious reasons.
brass is price /3 for average number of times it can be re-used.

Reloading gear is not cheap, but it pays itself off for someone that shoots a lot regularly.

Even more savings can be had if you cast your own lead (and the local range you use permits lead ball ammo). Lead can be had quite cheaply in bulk...melting it is pretty easy, and so is casting it.

The thing is, right now everyone is in a "OMG they're gunna ban our guuuuuuns" mode and buying up all the ammo and components they can get. This has lead to pretty ridiculous prices on everything.

Really, reloading and casting your own bullets is the most economical, as the price of lead hasn't jumped up as drastically as other things.

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 11:48 AM
Brass can be reloaded many, many more times than 3. I have pistol brass thats been reloaded at least 100 times, and have rifle brass at over 60 times now.

MMCSRET
November 17, 2009, 12:00 PM
jcwit has it down, I also retired early and I can shoot when ever the urge hits me, usually weekdays as I don't have anyone else at the range on monday or tuesday mornings. I cast bullets for everything I shoot and I have over 140 sets of dies. Its fun, how can I charge for fun? How many of you charge yourself for watching a sunday ball game? Since its sunday its time and a half or possibly double time and a half or at the very least comp time on a weekday, how does that work for you? it probably doesn't unless you are self employed.
Venison at $67.00 a pound or pheasants at $39.00 each, sound about right? Gotta count the "TIME"!!!!!!!!!!

Arkansas Paul
November 17, 2009, 12:13 PM
In my opinion, if you're worried about how much your time is worth, you don't need to be reloading. I enjoy it. It is becoming as much a hobby to me as shooting. MMCSRET has it right. It's fun for most of us. If it isn't for you, go buy it at the store. I really don't shoot enough to justify it. I just plain enjoy it.

Frankl03
November 17, 2009, 12:38 PM
I enjoy shooting and reloading. Also I haven't purchased brass in a while. I pick it up at the range. I have a couple thousand 223 brass and 800-1000 .308 brass. The stuff that I pick up that I don't shoot I sell and put the money into other components.

I just made up some match ammo and shot my first sub MOA group with. It was very rewarding. I shoot mostly hand loaded ammo. I have some store bought laying around but I don't shoot it. I do have some brown bear I'm using up in my PTR 91. But when its gone I will be shooting the hand loaded in it.

Smokin Gator
November 17, 2009, 12:49 PM
Most of us regular working Joe's aren't earning pay 24 hours a day. If you can work overtime whenever you want and make enough to buy the amount of ammo you need, and would rather work than reload, great. But, It seems that usually the people who talk about how valuable their time is, are also the first ones to say that they can't afford to spend even a few hundred bucks on some reloading gear. Think about what's it's costing you to catch some sleep every night!!! Mark

Ed Ames
November 17, 2009, 02:04 PM
Most of the "but your time has value" arguments are, if not wrong, misleading.

Your time has only the value people are willing to pay for it...

Some people have no problem finding a reasonably attractive price for every minute of their day. A good lawyer, reasonable doctor, etc. can bill hundreds per hour and fill every waking hour.

Most people are lucky if they can get $20/hr before taxes, or maybe $15/hr take home.... and they can't find buyers for much more than 40 hours a week. Something well over 10% right now can't find buyers for even that much.

At $15 take home, you would need to be able to reload ~40 rounds of our sample 30-30 per hour to break even. At $40/hr take-home you'd need to reload something like 100 rds/hr of those 30-30 rds to break even. In other words, to reach the point where you would be money ahead to take an hour off at work to reload instead of working that hour and buying factory ammo.

Those rates are easily reached with basic tools.

My preferred reloading tool is a lee hand press. That's the $25 thing that doesn't need a table. As you can imagine, it's on the slow side. With that and a digital powder measure/scale combo I can easily load 100 or more .454 casull in an hour. How much would I have to be paid to break even with the savings involved in reloading?

kanook
November 17, 2009, 02:58 PM
When I reload, it is a load that cannot be readily store bought. So in a sense it's "custom ammo".

How much does Buffalo Bore, Cor-bon, Hornady, ect... get for some of their "custom ammo" that cost way to much and is rarely found. Most of the reloaders I know have a "custom load" and will not purchase store bought.

MT GUNNY
November 17, 2009, 03:43 PM
Quote; Correct me if I'm wrong but single stage press means only 1 bullet at a time?

Actually 1 Round per 2 to 3 strokes! IE; Size, Expand in some cases, Seat and or Crimp.

TexasRifleman
November 17, 2009, 04:06 PM
Your time has only the value people are willing to pay for it...

No, my time has value to me as well. If I want to invest 8 hours reloading to save some cash I can do that. But perhaps I'd rather spend that 8 hours doing something else that I value more.

If reloading is an activity that has a high enough level of enjoyment then sure, it's time well spent to some. To others, the activity is simply a means to an end and for that person the money spent on factory ammo buys back that time to do something else with.

That's why I say that the financial arguments for or against reloading are all silly. You either like doing it or you don't, it's not financial.

SSN Vet
November 17, 2009, 04:38 PM
Who buys .30-30 brass?

I go to the movies and pay $10 for 2 hours of fun....

I go into my "cave" and have just as much, if not more fun, so shouldn't I add that $10 as savings? :)

I got into reloading because I thought I'd save money and learn a lot...

I got deeper into reloading, because it's fun, I learn a lot and I can afford to shoot more.

My initial set up with a LCT press and dies for .30-30 and .357/.38spc cost me something like $250.

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 17, 2009, 04:52 PM
OK, to do a little math. For curiosity. I want to know the following:

How much does it cost for all the equipment required to load 45acp?
How much does it cost for the powder, primer and bullets to make 20,000 rounds of it?
How much do 5,000 45acp brass cases cost?

I figure using a case average of 4 times. It is not always practical especially at public ranges, to pick up every case every time so I'd say 4x fired is a good lifespan.

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 04:57 PM
That's why I say that the financial arguments for or against reloading are all silly. You either like doing it or you don't, it's not financial.


Well with you not knowing anything about my finances all I can say is you do not know what you're talking about regarding my situation.

lobo9er
November 17, 2009, 04:59 PM
prices also reflect how are dollar is losing buying power.

Smokin Gator
November 17, 2009, 05:03 PM
Some people are in the financial postition to buy sufficient ammunition for all of their shooting. The time they don't spend reloading can be spent putting rounds down range or enjoying some other activity or for that matter, just relaxing. For THOSE people you are correct. Many other shooters may or may not actually enjoy reloading, but over the course of years, once the initial start up costs are absorbed,reloading allows them to shoot a lot more. I shoot in several different types of competition and there are plenty of people who reload because otherwise they wouldn't be able to shoot in as many matches, plus practice sessions. For them it is definitly not just a silly financial consideration. Reloading is a necessary chore for some and an enjoyable part of the hobby for others. Also, for people who make a couple of trips to the range a year, reloading probably doesn't make sense. I do happen to also enjoy reloading myself. Mark

jcwit
November 17, 2009, 05:07 PM
OK, to do a little math. For curiosity. I want to know the following:

How much does it cost for all the equipment required to load 45acp?
How much does it cost for the powder, primer and bullets to make 20,000 rounds of it?
How much do 5,000 45acp brass cases cost?

I figure using a case average of 4 times. It is not always practical especially at public ranges, to pick up every case every time so I'd say 4x fired is a good lifespan.

Well if we're going to use this logic we also have to enclude the price of the firearm and put an estimate as to how many rounds it'll fire before its due for retirement.

Just how can you add in the cost of the equiment not knowing what calibers you may use it for in the future?

If you're only using your brass 4 times please let me know as I'll be more than willing to take them off your hands for free of course as you're going to throw them away anyway.

Cost to reload 20,000 rounds of 45 ACP?

Cases------------------------------$ .00----Already have them--Cost for all I own (0)
Primers-----------------------------$ .01----Already have them also
Powder-----------------------------$ .005---Have that too
Bullets------------------------------$ .00----Have the lead, will have to cast a few more

Total about $300.00

Nicodemus38
November 17, 2009, 10:58 PM
maybe i should have been a little more thought provoking with my original post.

at this time in michigan, every brick and mortar store from dunhams to walmart to to the local mom and pop store are giving huge complications from ammo. they love to tell everyone that listens that the box of ammo they have priced so high is because the manufacturer cant produce ammo enough, or cant afford to load large amounts of it due to cost for companents.

so i priced two very popular rounds using cabelas.com to find prices, sans shipping which varies depending on where its shipped to.
i was hoping that someone would be able to explain to me that if im able to get teh same components the factory uses to load ammo, then why is there a "shortage" at the store for loaded ammuntion?

shawn21
November 17, 2009, 11:18 PM
thats why u call the store before u go to get things thay do not have

SuperNaut
November 18, 2009, 12:29 AM
Due to the ammo shortage I haven't been able to shoot when and what I wanted. I have gotten into reloading so that this will never happen to me again. I don't care about the PITA factor, I don't care about savings, I don't care about wild-catting, all I care about is availability.

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 18, 2009, 12:40 AM
Cases------------------------------$ .00----Already have them--Cost for all I own (0)
Primers-----------------------------$ .01----Already have them also
Powder-----------------------------$ .005---Have that too
Bullets------------------------------$ .00----Have the lead, will have to cast a few more

Total about $300.00

Cost for a new soda you made me spit out laughing is .75c!

Come on man, no way you can load 20,000 rounds for $300. That's nowhere close to realistic, sorry. Those materials cost you something at some point. I highly doubt you found 20,000 rounds worth of primer powder and lead.

Does anyone have any realistic calculation, for a new guy like me, assuming I use the cases say 5 times, my handgun range has other people in ports next to me, also some brass will fly past the firing line and not be retrieved so I figure 5 uses is a good estimate. I am buying the powder, primers, and bullets in 2009 not 1999 also. Current day prices for a new guy.

Smokin Gator
November 18, 2009, 01:52 AM
Here's my recent costs for loading 200gr lead SWC bullets in 45 acp. These prices are on the high side, but realistic. Bullets about 7cents each, primers at 4 cents each, powder even at 25 dollars per pound is less than 2 cents per round, the cases don't add a lot of cost even if you buy them when you consider how many times they can be reloaded. Even including a little cost per case it comes out to under $7 per 50 round box. Usually you can get powder cheaper and in some areas at this time primers are cheaper (not where I am unfortunately). You might be able to get bullets locally for less. As I said these numbers are on the high side. Smaller calibers are cheaper. Of course if you have a stockpile of components that you bought in years past your cost is a lot less, but if you bought all new comoponents right now, this would be more realistic. Mark

evan price
November 18, 2009, 02:06 AM
How much does it cost for all the equipment required to load 45acp?
How much does it cost for the powder, primer and bullets to make 20,000 rounds of it?
How much do 5,000 45acp brass cases cost?

Lee Pro-1000 progressive press setup for .45 ACP : $160
Powder check scale : $20
Stainless Steel dial calipers (Harbor Freight) : $10
Misc plastic bins, jars, coffee cans etc. : Free

Total equipment required to start out loading .45 ACP : $200 (rounded up)

Supplies to START to load 1000 .45 acp:

1000 1x fired, tumbled cases from Evan Price : $75 shipped
1000 Large Pistol primers : $35
.67# of pistol powder : $10
1000 Missouri Bullet Co. lead 230-grain RN projectiles : $80 w/THR discount

Total cost of supplies to load 1000 45 acp: $200
That's 20 cents a shot, or $10.00 a box of 50 rounds.

Bear in mind that unless you lose them, .45 acp cases loaded to target velocities will result in cases that last almost forever. I've got .45 cases that have been loaded so many times the headstamp is almost unreadable.
If you scrounge your own cases at the range you can eliminate this cost from your equation.


Cost of equipment to set up your own bullet-casting works:

Turkey Fryer setup with burner and regulator : $40
Stainless Steel pot to melt lead at junk shop : $5
Stainless steel ladle and slotted spoon : $8
Ingot Molds (AKA muffin tins) : $7
Lee 6-cavity bullet mold and handles : $50
Lee lead melting pot, electric : $40

Total cost of equipment to make your own bullets : $150

Cost of bullets when you cast 1000 of your own .45 230-RN bullets...
Cost of wheel weight lead/50# : $5
Cost of propane/electircity to melt lead : $2
Cost of lube for tumble-lubing : $negligible call it $1 but much less

Total cost of 1000 .45 acp 230-rn bullets you cast yourself : under $8
Each bullet costs less than a penny, or roughly, 1/10 the cost of buying them from a caster.


Cost for Evan Price to load up 1000 .45 ACP:

Bullets : Cast myself from WW lead I scrounged
Primers : Bought in bulk before the shortage
Powder : Bought in bulk 8# kegs before the shortage
Cases : Scrounged at the range, freebie, zip, zero, nada.
Total cost per shot : Approximately 4 cents each (rounded up)

Total cost for Evan Price's .45 acp per box of 50: $2.00


HOWEVER! If you start reloading with the intention that you will somehow "save money" it's a false belief. You will just shoot more. But is that really all that bad?

Folks that try to justify reloading with an involved and convoluted cost/benefit analysis featuring a cost per hour for your time, are deceiving themselves. With reloading, you either get it, or you don't. You reload because you see a benefit or you don't.

As for me, there's many reasons to reload, the ability to tailor the load to your needs is one, the economy is another, but the best is that maybe someday you won't be able to go buy 1000 rounds of .45 at the store. Being in control of your own destiny is worth something that is impossible to put a price on.

As far as should you reload or not, hell, nobody but you can answer that. It's either something you want to do or it isn't.

JoeSlomo
November 18, 2009, 03:00 AM
The original argument was that reloading saved money. It does not, especially with the low volume systems. It's fun, it's entertaining, it's relaxing, it's better for accuracy most of the time but you can't argue that it saves any money since your time has value.

It saves money for me, though I can't argue how others value their time.

I can load 100 rounds for around $15.00, which is about half of what WWB costs. I can EASILY load 100 rounds in a half hour, and average about 200 per hour with a dillon progressive reloader at a relaxed and thorough pace.

I find reloading to be relaxing and use it to settle down after a day of work.

When you add the time it takes to drive to the store, wait in line for service, and drive back, the price of fuel, etc, re-loading is cheaper and time better spent imo.

I would NOT be able to shoot as much as I do if I didn't reload.

jcwit
November 18, 2009, 07:16 AM
Quote:
Cases------------------------------$ .00----Already have them--Cost for all I own (0)
Primers-----------------------------$ .01----Already have them also
Powder-----------------------------$ .005---Have that too
Bullets------------------------------$ .00----Have the lead, will have to cast a few more

Total about $300.00

Cost for a new soda you made me spit out laughing is .75c!

Come on man, no way you can load 20,000 rounds for $300. That's nowhere close to realistic, sorry. Those materials cost you something at some point. I highly doubt you found 20,000 rounds worth of primer powder and lead.

Does anyone have any realistic calculation, for a new guy like me, assuming I use the cases say 5 times, my handgun range has other people in ports next to me, also some brass will fly past the firing line and not be retrieved so I figure 5 uses is a good estimate. I am buying the powder, primers, and bullets in 2009 not 1999 also. Current day prices for a new guy.

Cost of primers at a store going out of business 5/6 years ago, a little less than $50 for 5000 primers, guess that works out to 1 cent a round. BTW I bought them out and more than likely have enough to last the rest of my lifetime.

Cost of powder, purchased a few years ago $8 a lb. 32 lbs plus $20 hazmet came to $276 bucks. That comes out to $8.63 a lb. right? Averaging 5 grains of powder to a 45 acp thats .006 cents per case charge.

Cost of lead for bullets, free, help clean the indoor range I'm a member at.

Cost of brass, free, pickups fromindoor and outdoor ranges I belong to. Do I have 20,000 pcs of .45 acp, OOOOHHHHHH YYYAAAA

Cost to load 1 round of 45 acp, $ .016 cents times 20,000 rds equals $320 bucks.

Sorry man, but thats the facts. Need to buy another soda, man?

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 18, 2009, 08:44 AM
No, that was a good explaination why you got that stuff so cheap. Thank you jcwit and evan for the numbers, I will have to reconsider reloading as that is not very much money at all.

jcwit
November 18, 2009, 08:53 AM
Thanks, and when I bought the primers the intent was not to hoard, they were just so cheap I couldn't walk away. Sort of like going into an auto parts store and seeing Mobil 1 or Penzoil Platium for $ .50 cents a quart.

atomd
November 18, 2009, 05:34 PM
Some ammo is cheaper to load. I'm paying about .12 a round for .45 ACP (re-using brass I already have and 230 grain RNL bullets). The cheapest factory stuff here is about .42 a round if you buy it by the box.

That's $300 less PER CASE of ammo. And that's buying the cheapest stuff I can find. For that $300 I could buy a turret press and a set of dies...along with other extras. The next case I load is pure money saved.

The real equation though...what is your time worth? I don't mind spending some of my time reloading. With a good press like a Dillon 550 or 650, you could do 400 rounds per hour if you cranked on it. That's $300 in savings for a bit over 2 hours worth of work. Even if you went slower and took 3-4 hours, that's still quite a bit of money saved per hour spent. I don't know about all you guys, but I don't get paid $100 per hour to work my day job.

mesinge2
November 18, 2009, 08:57 PM
I think part of the ammo shortage is that more people are buying guns and getting CCLs more then any other time in history.

lobo9er
November 18, 2009, 09:12 PM
jcwit wins this one

moooose102
November 18, 2009, 11:31 PM
you also have to factor in that a certain percentage of the people out there are not competent enough to assemble ammunition without getting hurt either in the process, or in the proving of said ammo. it is not at all difficult to put to much of the wrong powder into a cartridge, and have catostophic effects. many others, simply do not want to bother, or have room, or can justify reloading. and that is fine, to each, his own. like others have said, it is not an ammo shortage, it is panic buying that is the trouble.

sidibear
November 19, 2009, 04:16 AM
I reload mainly for shooting at an indoor range which has restrictions on velocity, downloaded ammo cannot be bought here. I reload .45acp lswc for around $0.10 a round.
But when I shoot outdoors I use factory .45acp fmj which costs around $35 / 100, just buying the 230gr fmj bullets costs around $28 / 100 so its not worth the hassle of reloading, but hey, I gain more brass for the downloads.
I also load 7x57 for my Mauser which works out at around $45 / 100 compared with $175 / for factory so there is a significant saving even factoring in my own time.

strambo
November 19, 2009, 06:14 AM
I got into reloading because I thought I'd save money and learn a lot...

I got deeper into reloading, because it's fun, I learn a lot and I can afford to shoot more.This reflects my experience as well.

If you are going to factor time and cost, as others mentioned, factor drive time and fuel to store or time searching and ordering on internet and subtract from loading time.

I can load 200 rds in the time it would take me to drive to the store and back from where I live. 200 rds is a range session. I'd rather load at home and go to the range, then drive to the store and back, then go to the range. time is same, quality of time for loading is far superior (to me).

At 15 mins to do an internet purchase...Ok, I could only load 50-100rds...but I have to wait for delivery as well...

Someone mentioned 8 hrs? 8 hrs of my time loading? Well, lets say 30 mins to set up & 30 mins worth of breaks (fill a bunch of primer tubes, confirm settings, charge etc...) 7 hrs @ 350/400/hr = 2450-2800 rds. Straight 8 hrs all loading = 2800-3200 rds.

I have a Dillon Square Deal B...not slow, but certainly not the fastest out there and very reasonably priced.

jcwit
November 19, 2009, 06:47 AM
I wasn't going to reply any more but I have just one more thing to say. Man alive are folks ever conserned about their time. Kick back, relax, enjoy life, your only going to do this once anyway.

Boy am I ever glad I'm retired and in good health, may not have the most money, or all the toys but have WAY more than most, and if you have your health every thing else is meaningless.

Don't believe me, try laying in a Hospital bed and have the Specialist come in and tell you you've got cancer with maybe a 20% chance of survival. Happened to me 10 years ago, and have been in remission for the last 8 years. Life is good, Praise the Lord!

woad_yurt
November 19, 2009, 07:03 AM
If one buys all the stuff to reload, the price will drop per round the more rounds one reloads. Example: If you pay $300 for a totally equipped setup (w/components) and if you make 1 round, it'll be a $300 round. Make 300 rounds and they'd cost $1 each. Then, if you have to buy more bullets, you'd have to factor their in cost for succeeding rounds. It's a fairly complicated calculation. There is a formula for this type of calculation; I learned it in an economics class but can't remember what it is after all of these years. Is it called a logarithm? I forget....

Anyway, I do know that I can crank out hundreds of rounds and only have to buy the occasional box of bullets or whatever. The last 4 times I went to the range, I shot over 200 rounds of .38 SPL each time. I can afford the components for this much shooting but I definitely can't afford to spend factory ammo prices on 200 rounds every time I go shooting.

I make my own loading; no one offers it. Try finding a factory .38 SPL wadcutter loaded to any decent defense power levels. Factory loadings with this bullet are all powder puff target loads.

I use the wadcutters for defense as well as practice and since my practice and defense loads are the same, I have total consistency. If one shoots seriously, consistency is a big, big deal. Different ammo makes for different results. Shoot 5000 rounds out of the same gun with the same ammo and then try doing as well with different ammo. You'll notice the difference right away. I guess a very casual shooter may not notice much of a difference but, if you do get serious, every little change to your shooting routine will result in inconsistency (AKA: accuracy loss!)

PS: To those who say that saving money by reloading isn't worth the extra time involved, please inject "for me" into the sentence somewhere. If some of us can save even $20, it is worth the time. That's $20 that can go towards the utility bill. It all depends upon one's personal financial situation.

PPS: I also like having a coffee can full to the brim with ammo, full enough to make a little thump when I put it down. Much nicer than all of those little boxes with their shell holders messing up the place.

strambo
November 19, 2009, 07:18 AM
^^^^ Roger, the custom factor is handy as well. My 9mm practice loads are 124g FMJ at 1100 FPS. My defense load is either Speer 124g GD's at about 1150 FPS (standard) or 1250 FPS (+P).

So, for less than the cost of the cheapest 115g factory ammo, I get a 124g load that is very close to my carry load in power, but won't needlessly batter my guns or be pushing "max" load powder charges so I'm free not to worry about mixed brass etc.

danprkr
November 19, 2009, 07:58 AM
Call me weird, but I gotta admit, I pretty much shoot so I have something to do in the garage on days when I can't go to the range. I probably enjoy reloading more than shooting anymore. If I didn't need empty brass I'd go the range even less than I do now.

Smokin Gator
November 20, 2009, 04:15 AM
Jcwit. That worked out great for you. It just doesn't have anything to do with what someone can realistically load ammo for today. Cars aren't $3,000 apiece anymore. Houses aren't 15,000 apiece. People can expect to make more than a buck and a half and hour these days. Mark

jcwit
November 20, 2009, 04:54 AM
Jcwit. That worked out great for you. It just doesn't have anything to do with what someone can realistically load ammo for today. Cars aren't $3,000 apiece anymore. Houses aren't 15,000 apiece. People can expect to make more than a buck and a half and hour these days. Mark

Wrong. First off I started working and never worked for the meger sum of $1.50. Started at $5.00 an hour at the ripe old age of 13. Almost 60 years ago.

New cars aren't $3000 any more thats for sure but the last newer car I bought was a little less than 3 years old and yes I bought it for $3000. My winter driver is older, 7 years old, less that 50,000 miles and got it for $1000. House I live in I purchased from my parents estate for $16,000 and I plan to stay here to the end.

Secret to all this is to keep an eye out for bargains, 3 days ago I was at Sinclare in Ft. Wayne, In. and got one of their $110 dollar arbor presses for $40.00. Maybe I get this from being a purchasing agent for most of my working life. Started at the age of 14, doing the purchasing for a Do-It-Best-Hardware before their was a HWI.

What someone can do realistically do is all relative to what you can purchase whatever for and how much money you can save at the time of purchase.

BTW, right now you can purchase nice homes 15 to 20 years old with all new Anderson windows in the $20,000 price range, and thats in a good neighborhood, in my area.

So sorry you live in Calif.

btaylor73
November 20, 2009, 08:07 AM
I find reloading almost as fun as shooting it

jcwit
November 20, 2009, 08:10 AM
Right on btaylor73, thats the main reason I think its foolish to count your time, unless of course you could spend MORE time doing it.

glockmon
November 20, 2009, 12:05 PM
8889

Smokin Gator
November 20, 2009, 01:39 PM
Wrong. First off I started working and never worked for the meger sum of $1.50. Started at $5.00 an hour at the ripe old age of 13. Almost 60 years ago.

New cars aren't $3000 any more thats for sure but the last newer car I bought was a little less than 3 years old and yes I bought it for $3000. My winter driver is older, 7 years old, less that 50,000 miles and got it for $1000. House I live in I purchased from my parents estate for $16,000 and I plan to stay here to the end.

Secret to all this is to keep an eye out for bargains, 3 days ago I was at Sinclare in Ft. Wayne, In. and got one of their $110 dollar arbor presses for $40.00. Maybe I get this from being a purchasing agent for most of my working life. Started at the age of 14, doing the purchasing for a Do-It-Best-Hardware before their was a HWI.

What someone can do realistically do is all relative to what you can purchase whatever for and how much money you can save at the time of purchase.

BTW, right now you can purchase nice homes 15 to 20 years old with all new Anderson windows in the $20,000 price range, and thats in a good neighborhood, in my area.

So sorry you live in Calif.

Congratulations. $5.00 per hour 60 years ago would be some pretty darned good money. And is this in the same area that houses cost $20,000 today? Still, I noticed that you didn't mention anything about finding those components now at anywhere near what you paid for them when you got them. If someone asks what is the going rate for something these days, there is always someone who can answer that they got it for some rediculously low price. It still doesn't have anything to do with what someone can expect to pay when they go out to find it today. Sure, you might get lucky in the next couple of years if you wait to find a garage sale where they don't know what they have and have it priced at next to nothing. It also keeps the discussion honest when you make your comparisons apples to apples. Not what a new car would cost 40 years ago compared to buying a used one today.

jcwit
November 20, 2009, 04:09 PM
As stated, search for the bargins. Never ever buy on impulse. Just about never ever pay full or marked price, always, always ask for a discount. Maybe I can't buy a box of primers today for $50.00 but believe me if I happened into a store/garage sale/ flea mkt, or whatever that had discounted primers the first thing I'd do is ask for a further discount. Business or even private individuals discounting products usually means they need the money and Cash is King.

And is this in the same area that houses cost $20,000 today?

Sure is, this great economy has hit this area hard but then we're not broke like California.

rugerman
November 20, 2009, 05:04 PM
I think some of you are missing the point. Reloading is a hobby like gun collecting, shooting, boats, cars, etc. Its not all about saving money (which you also do), but it is also about accuracy, and making something that you can't buy. Sure conponents are hard to come by right now, primers espically and most popular caliber bullets are scarce. But so is loaded ammo (tried to find any .380 lately) sure some places have lots of stuff but at really high prices. If it weren't for reloading I couldn't shoot my .380's and I bet you can't find 9mm ammo with the 95gr bullets that I shoot in my Keltec pf9. Sure it takes time, but how much time do you spent in a deer stand before you see and the shoot a deer. If you take into account your time you would quit hunting and go to the store and buy a steak and save money. but my local store doesn't sell deer meat so I'll keep reloading and hunting and write off my time.

jcwit
November 20, 2009, 05:10 PM
Right rugerman, just what does it take to get folks to understand this. I slept 8 houres last night, lets see $30.00 an hour that cost me $240.00 bucks.

evan price
November 23, 2009, 03:17 AM
Even today, you can get into reloading at current prices and save a bundle. Heck, since factory ammo has gotten so expensive, it's even more a deal.
4 years ago I didn't bother to load 9mm. It was what, $5 a box? Not worth my time to save a dollar a box or two. Now that it's $15, $20 a box, I can load mine for under $2 a box and that's huge savings. And that's just 9mm, the "cheapest" centerfire cartridge out there right now. Toss in .45 Auto or God forbid something like .44 Magnum or .45 Colt, and you are talking about almost $50 a box. (I saw .44 Mag Winchester plain white box for $46 a box of 50 the other day).

Even at today's current prices, you can load .45 auto for under $12/100 if you shop carefully and buy in bulk to maximize your discounts. You can ship more than 1000 bullets in one flat rate box. When you buy something heavy like bullets, max out the weight in the box to spread the shipping cost over more pieces. Same goes for powder & primers. Max out that Haz-Mat with 25K primers and 16# of powder. Only buy the small lots at the gun shop to try out something. Once your load is developed, buy the bulkiest quantities you can to save the most money. Scrounge every piece of brass you can get your dirty fingers on without stealing from somebody else. Even if you don't shoot it, you can trade it off here in the forum trading post. Re-use the boxes and trays that factory ammo came in instead of buying MTM plastic boxes. Trade labor cleaning a range for the brass and lead you collect.

Be resourceful, and again, don't consider the cost of equipment in your per-load costs, usable equipment that's been taken care of has a decent resale value. It's an investment, not an expenditure. Or do you consider the depreciated value of your gun in each shot you fire?

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