[Jeffery8mm]

I have a Howa .308 win that is giving me fits on sizing. I fire a round and it will rechamber easily. Once I full length size it in my hornady dies, it is hard to close the bolt on the round. Trim length is ok. I think it is a shoulder issue. How can I solve this?? Is it a die adjustment problem?? Die is screwed in till it touches the shellholder, then 1/8 to 1/4 round farther.
Any ideas???
Jeff

[SlamFire1]

Similiar problem discussed recently


http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6043700&postcount=6

[USSR]

Any ideas???

Keep turning, Jeff, keep turning.:D

Don

[Jeffery8mm]

Dude at Hornady say check the expander ball.
Jeff

[interlock]

maybe your shell holder is worn? i had this problem with a certian brand of brass in my 7mm08. i cut a piece of coke can and placed it in the shell holder to just lift the case of the shell holder. of course, you need to deprime first.

[creophus]

How about you just neck size since you're firing these in a bolt gun.

[Jeffery8mm]

Can you neck size only with a full length die??
Splain the adjustment to me please.
Jeff

[allain]

No. You need a neck sizing die which uses a bushing and NO expander ball. Check out the Redding S dies. I believe Midway sells them or you can call Sinclair International. Call either Redding or Sinclair and they will give you instructions on determining which bushing(s) you need. If that doesn't help, PM me and I'll tell you what to do.

I shoot benchrest and that's the only kind of dies we use.

Roy

[Strongbad]

I think we're missing the point here. Rounds run through the FL die should chamber and they don't. As USSR mentioned earlier and as you, Jeff, already suspected it's mostlikely that you don't have the die adjusted down far enough. If there's significant play in the ram or arm of the press it could be that it needs, and will accept, another 1/4-1/2 turn (or more). The expander ball as the others mentioned could be a contributor. Quickest way to eliminate that is just to take it out completely. Then if the problem goes away, you know it's a bit oversized or it might just need to be polished. Let us know know either way and we can go from there.

You CAN use the FL dies to do a partial resize, that is, you screw the die down to where it just kisses the shoulder. Just enough to allow the rounds to chamber properly. Beyond that, you can go pick up a neck sizing die. Allain is right about the bushing dies, they're the bees knees. I have a custom made Type-S die for my 338/378 myself, but for general day to day reloading it's certainly not necessary. On a sporter where you're looking for minute of vitals accuracy lets say around an inch @ 100 yards, a partial resize with the FL die will certainly do.

[interlock]

Sorry to digress. I think that a hunting round, where 1 inch groups are sufficient, is best full length resized.

i think it gives more reliable feeding.

[walgetty]

I have had the same issues using Lee FL .308 sizing dies and shooting in a Mossberg 100 ATR. I have broken 2 extractor claws in the process. :mad::uhoh:
Getting the bolt repaired was a pain. Had to ship the entire firearm back the 1st time. They allowed me to ship only the bolt the 2nd time which was a lot easier.
I adjusted the die down so that it touches the shell holder then 1/4 turn more. This seems to help in the fact that it will chamber better as it reforms the shoulder closer to specs. Fired cases were probably from my Indian .308 rifle. I am still affaid to use non factory loads in my Mossberg. I just bought a couple of boxes of 150g and 180g loads to use hunting.
I will still reload .308 for my Indian 2A rifle. Military chambers are more forgiving. ;);)

[fguffey]

We will start over, the shell holder is .125 thousands deep or .125 thousands from the deck of the shell holder to the top, if it is not the company that manufactured it will replace it. When a case is placed in the shell holder and the ram is raised the case is sized when pushed in to the die, the distance from the deck of the shell holder to the shoulder of the die is equivalent to full length sizing or sizing a case to minimum length from the head of the case to the shoulder, when compared to a go-gage length chamber the length of the case from the head of the case to its shoulder is .005 thousands shorter than the length of the 'go-gage' size chamber .005, this makes the perfect case length .000 and the chamber length +.005 if gages and transfers are used and understood. So, if the deck height of the shell holder is .125, that is all it can do.

The die can not grow, there have been a few well meaning hand loaders that have ground the bottom of the die to shorten the distance between the deck height of the shell holder to the shoulder in the die, anything that be accomplished by defeating the design by grinding can be accomplished with a feeler gage 'in thousands' and grinding compromises the integrity of the die and or shell holder, hand loaders can not say 'feeler gage' and the concept of using a transfer escapes them, forget making gages and transfers.

Sizing the neck, when the neck is sized the neck gets longer, when the ram is lowered and the sizer ball is pulled through the neck expands, when the neck expands it gets shorter, unless the inside of the neck is dry and the case is work hardened there is little effort required to pull the sizer ball through the neck, the belief the case gets longer when the sizer ball is pulled through is perpetuated by those that assume it happens but never measure cases before, during and after.

Changes is shoulder position, I only have one name for a sizer die and that is 'full length sizer die' but I do have a lot of fancy uses for the full length sizer die such as neck sizer, partial neck sizer, neck sizer with partial case length sizing and full length sizing with case support and with the aid of a feeler gage I size cases that are .017 thousands shorter from the head of the case to the shoulder than a go-gage length sized chamber to infinity, or a practical .011 beyond a go gage length chamber.

Sizing without a standard, after sizing the first case is chambered, it should chamber, then a bullet should be seated (without primer/powder) and feed through the magazine, it should feed, if it does not chamber there has to be something wrong with the bullet seating process, but if we did not measure the case diameter at the shoulder after sizing we will never know if the shoulder expanded and started to collapse when the bullet was seated, seating should be effortless, so effortless the manufactures did not build case support into the seater die.

I used a box of 20 new/unfired Remington 30/06 cartridges to measure the effect each case had on head space, + or -, the effect was .0025 or .00125 either side of .000, good control considering they are loading for a chamber that, in the perfect world, is .005, when I size a case I am looking for .004 IF THE CHAMBER IS THE PERFECT CHAMBER, again, I have one chamber that is +.016, I can not accomplish this as a target by smidgen adjustments or with washers, I simply adjust the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die with a feeler gage in any number of old presses that are stronger than the case being sized, AND effort and full length sizing increase when the number gets close to .000 or minimum length sizing, all the effort is at the end of the stroke.

Sizing the case and the effect sizing has on the position of the shoulder, first the neck gets sized then the body of the case starts to get sized, when this happens the shoulder is pushed forward, then the shoulder gets sized, this is the reason I like the versatility of the full length sizer die, it neck sizes with partial body support, with a feeler gage the effect the case length has on head space can be controlled, the feeler gage works better than a 'tad' or 'smidgen'.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Neck size with a full length sizer die, you can use a washer, a smidge or a tad back off adjustment, I use a feeler gage, raise the ram, adjust the die down to a feeler gage that is .025 thick, secure the lock nut, then lower the ram, remove the .025 feeler gage and insert a .030 thousands gage, raise the ram, lightly pull the gage, if the gage secured between the shell holder and die the gap is less than .030 thousands, repeat with a .020 gage, if the .020 is loose the gap is greater than .020 thousands.

Neck sizing can be accomplished with a wider gap, the wide gap prevents the complete neck from being sized, the unsized portion of the neck aids in centering the case in the chamber, just in case the case is just laying around in there and the extractor has the case shoved off to one side etc..

F. Guffey

[loadedround]

Will your case not chamber with or without a seated bullet. If with a seated bullet, I would check your crimp. You may be crimping too heavily causing the case to slightly buckle behind the crimp causing chambering difficulties. This had happened to me loading GI cases for CMP competion in my M1 Garand. If any empty case, you have a sizing problem as the others have pointed out to you.

[Innovative]

Jeffery8mm .......

Few shooters really understand that chamber clearance (at the shoulder) needs to be kept to a minimum, like -.002" (or less). Guessing where to set your FL die seldom gives the best results. It's a good idea to measure your chamber clearance at the shoulder, and it's important to know how YOUR handloads fit in YOUR particular chamber.

Do a Google search on Digital Headspace Gauge, and you'll find some good information about how to adjust your FL die for the best results. Even shooters that just neck size need to accurately control the case shoulder - sooner or later.

- Innovative

[fguffey]

Innovative,

I would call the Digital Head Space Gage a Digital Case Gage, a gage that measures the effect the case has on head space after sizing or a gage used to measure the effect head space had on the case when fired, something like the Wilson case gage, there again there is a lot of guessing going on if the user is not using a height gage or a FEELER GAGE with a straight edge, I have the option a using a set-up table but find the feeler gage/straight edge as easy. Again, I make gages and use the gages as transfers, that is getting one measurement moved from one to the other as from the chamber to the case gage or DIE.

So I use a head space gage, measure it with a case gage or skip that process and go straight to the die and transfer the measurement by adjusting the die down to the gage, to VERIFY I use a feeler gage to determine the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die, without an $85.00 tool.

Again the Digital Head Space/case gage would be nice to have but I want to take one measurement and take it all the way though and back to the chamber, that is the reason I believe Sammy specs are nice to know but I am never loading for Sammy's chamber, I am loading for my chamber.

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey ......

When a cartridge is fired in a rifle chamber, you have about 50,000 PSI inside your case. This makes your fired case fit your chamber "perfectly". Your fired case is just like a casting of your chamber, and it won't have any measurable clearance anywhere inside your chamber.

Our Digital Headspace Gauge quickly displays one measurement - the only one needed regarding chamber clearance. Press one button and it gives you the clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR particular chamber, and it's accurate within half a thousandth (.0005").

This measurement comes from comparing one of your handloads to one of your fired cases. The difference is your chamber clearance. This information helps the shooter adjust die height more accurately.

I've found that most shooters avoid checking headspace altogether, because they've seen 1,000 complicated ways of measuring it. Reloading is not rocket science. Visit our website and you'll see over 125 pages of reloading tech tips that help shooters make better handloads, while keeping it simple.

As a bonus ..... the patented Digital Headspace Gauge can also measure bullet "jump" to the rifling. You would need to purchase a bunch of different cheaper tools to perform the same functions. You also don't need to balance your case on the blade of calipers or use a collection of different bushings or rods to operate it. Unlike the RCBS Precision Mic, the Digital Headspace Gauge works on ALL different calibers.

- Innovative

[Walkalong]

A friend of my sons wanted to sight in his .270 so I took him to the range Wednesday evening. The rounds would not chamber. Reloads? I asked. Yep. His uncle made em. Seems to be a common problem. He made a box of 50 without ever checking the first one.

Bullet out too far. Not sized enough. Shoulder buckeled a hair when bullet seated and or crimped. Unlikely, but could be a die or shelholder problem.

[fguffey]

Walkalong, it is about discipline, my concern with a similar situation, if the cases were not sized properly and if seating the bullets upset (bulged) the case I would not assume the powder was correct or properly weighed,

I could say make a test case, size and seat a bullet (no primer/powder) then chamber, as soon as I said that someone would say DUMMY ROUND, I would then think, depends on who sized and seated the bullet.

If I am with someone shooting reloads that is having trouble chambering rounds I do not want to be around when when one chambers, it is not easy but passable to chamber an 8mm57 in a 30/06, the .323 bullet getting down the 308 barrel is the issue.


F. Guffey

[fguffey]

... but possible to chamber...

forgive,

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

again, you are talking about firing first then check, I said check first then fire, I am talking about forming first then firing not sizing first then firing to form, and there is nothing complicated about a feeler gage, and I said I skip the step where I use the $85.00 tool, I am not selling a tool, I am sharing an Ideal, and the tool pictured in your add looks like a case gage, a gage that measures the effect the case has on head space after sizing or the effect head space has on the case when fired. I could improve on your case gage to make it look more like the one I fabricate out of 'cheap tools', that would make it more user friendlier, but I am not selling, I am sharing.

and I do not think it necessary to visit your sight for 'GOOD' information, additional information, yes, there have been at least 7 responders to this thread, I appreciate their time and contribution, they are not selling, they are sharing.

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey ......

I've spent countless hundreds of hours writing over 125 pages on my website that "share" ideas about reloading and shooting. Don't get ticked off at fellow shooters because they work in the shooting industry. Making a reasonable profit is a good thing (except in Obama's agenda).

If you knew how much it takes to get any product to market in the U.S. you would understand that it's a miracle our industry still exists. The lawyers make it manditory to buy a million dollar insurance policy before Midway or Cabela's can even buy a product. I paid the price for 2 years, but the cost of the policy kept going up as sales increased. Believe me, there are many awesome products that will never be seen by shooters - thanks to all the lawyers.

My post solved the problem that was originally posted. Have a little understanding that there are new ideas (and products) that really need to be seen by shooters, and profit is only a dirty word to the liberals.

- Innovative

[ranger335v]

I am satified with my RCBS Presicion Mics/Stoney Point tools BUT, IF I were starting over I'd simply get the Innovative tool. Just as good, much quicker and much more flexible.


" I fire a round and it will rechamber easily. Once I full length size it in my hornady dies, it is hard to close the bolt on the round."

Okay, let's think about this and walk though it one step at a time.

1) The fired case will fit in the chamber it was fired in. Couldn't be much different going back in, right?

2) After sizing, it won't fit? Clearly something is undone in the sizing, right? There are only two things that can be changed in that:

A. - the sizer die might be screwed upwards a bit. But, that would mean the case would be left even larger, right" So, the only other option is...

B. - the sizer die can be screwed down a bit more.

The SOLUTION IS FOUND! :D

[Walkalong]

If I am with someone shooting reloads that is having trouble chambering rounds I do not want to be around when when one chambers,Hard to argue with that. I was nervous when I realized he was having trouble. I was actually kind of glad they would not chamber after I knew they were reloads and he was having trouble. ;)

[Walkalong]

The SOLUTION IS FOUND! I just don't understand how folks do it so often. If they have a reloading manual and are paying attention, this really shouldn't happen. They just are not following directions and checking things like the manuals clearly tell you to.

[rcmodel]

I have a friend who owns more rifles then the Remington factory.

Every time he buys a new one in a new caliber, I get the same phone call about his reloads won't chamber.

Every single time, I tell him to screw the dang sizing die down until it touches the shell holder, then screw it down some more until the press "bumps" over at full ram extension to take up the linkage slack and press frame flex.

And guess what?
Every time I tell him, it fixes his chambering problem, again.

rc

[Innovative]

rcmodel ......

There's a little more to it than you think. Sometimes you need to raise the die to keep from buckleing the case or increasing chamber clearance. If it only bulges your case by .001" too much, that case also may fail to chamber. This is especially true with belted magnum calibers, because factory ammo headspaces on the belt, and handloads should always headspace on the shoulder.

Walkalong ........

Sometimes reading the directions alone is not enough. The guy that writes instructions is making them for a wide range of shooters, and he has no idea how much reloading experience you have - or not. Instructions can't be too long, or nobody will read them. Leaving out important information is also a bad deal. When you see shooters that have handloads that don't fit . . . . . it would help solve their problem to use the right equipment to take accurate measurements.

EXAMPLE: Carpenters build houses every day. Those that know how to measure accurately will make better homes. Those that never take measurements will eventually run into all kinds of problems. It's that simple.

- Innovative

[rcmodel]

rcmodel ......There's a little more to it than you think.Oh, I think I know about resizing after doing it for almost 50 years.

Yes, you can create excess headspace in certain circumstances with an out of spec rifle, die, or shell holder.
No, you can't normally buckle a case when resizing it. All you can do is reform the shoulder further back then it should be for proper headspace.

But, the OP's cases wouldn't fit back in his rifle, and that is almost always a case of improperly adjusting the sizing die down far enough to get all the press flex out.

rc

[USSR]

...the OP's cases wouldn't fit back in his rifle, and that is almost always a case of improperly adjusting the sizing die down far enough to get all the press flex out.

Only 99.9% of the time.;)

Don

[Innovative]

rcmodel .....

In most situations I would agree with you. But remember that .001" added to the case diameter is a very small amount, and it can be enough to make handloads fit very tight. This is very common with belted cases.

- Innovative

[Walkalong]

Walkalong ........

Sometimes reading the directions alone is not enough. The guy that writes instructions is making them for a wide range of shooters, and he has no idea how much reloading experience you have They should be written for beginers with it being assumed they know nothing, and most manuals are. The others usually have something to let consumers know that they are not for the beginner reloader.

Yes, you can create excess headspace in certain circumstances with an out of spec rifle, die, or shell holder.
No, you can't normally buckle a case when resizing it. All you can do is reform the shoulder further back then it should be for proper headspace.Yep.......

But remember that .001" added to the case diameter is a very small amount, and it can be enough to make handloads fit very tightBut oversizing doesn't cause that.

And you may want to remember that you are not talking to beginners.

You do make some cool reloading goodies. ;)

[Innovative]

Walkalong .......

Almost everyone on this forum is experienced at reloading. Some shooters (like you and I) just happen to have been reloading since the 1960s. When I first describe a brand new product (to somebody that has never seen it), it usually starts with strangers trying to explain how something used-to-be done. I know that many of them are very experienced, but it takes time to discover who they are. It also takes time to explain something that is truely unique, and what makes a new product perform better.

I try to play it safe by rarely even making a joke, because someone out there might take something the wrong way. Eventually I'll get the word out, and the most critical shooters out there often become my best customers. Their input helps me understand even more of the "other" ways of doing things. This has helped me learn about other techniques or new reloading tools that still can be developed. That's what I do for a living. With the help of jillions of shooters, I design new reloading and shooting products.

- Innovative

[NCsmitty]

I fire a round and it will rechamber easily. Once I full length size it in my hornady dies, it is hard to close the bolt on the round. Jeffery8mm

I'm always open to learning new ways and to new ideas, even at the tender age of 64, but the OP's problem was obvious in his first statement. The withdrawal of the expander button was stretching the shoulder out of spec because the die was not setting the shoulder back enough to compensate.
As USSR noted, that problem can be circumvented 99.9% of the time by proper die positioning.

I know that many of them are very experienced, but it takes time to discover who they are.

I think I know who I am, I'm just hoping that I won't forget who I was. :cuss:


NCsmitty

[counterclockwise]

Jeff,

The reason Hornady guy said check the expander ball, is that the ONLY THING that could make the case (that fits well after fire forming) grow longer during sizing to the point of interfering with bolt closure is that the expander ball drags on the neck on the way out and stretches the shoulder out or stretches the case out just behind the shoulder.

You should be able to polish the expander ball with some crocus cloth or light grinding compound. Then, redouble efforts to assure that the INSIDE OF THE CASE NECKS ARE LUBRICATED well before running through the full sizer die.

Another way to isolate the problem and verify the Hornady diagnosis is to take the decapping/expander stem out of the die. Resize the fire-formed case and see if it still chambers and allows bolt closure easily. If it does, then Hornady hunch is correct.

The rifle cases of the completed reload round need some "rattle space" in the chamber after the bolt is closed. To enhance case life (number of reloads before structural failure) reloaders try to limit cold working of resized cases by keeping the "rattle space" to just a few thousandths.

[snuffy]

The reason Hornady guy said check the expander ball, is that the ONLY THING that could make the case (that fits well after fire forming) grow longer during sizing to the point of interfering with bolt closure is that the expander ball drags on the neck on the way out and stretches the shoulder out or stretches the case out just behind the shoulder.

I've seen this answer so much here and on other forums, but, I don't buy it! In order to pull the neck AND shoulder forward enough to cause hard chambering, the expander ball would have to be damn near GLUED to the case! I used to pull the expander through .243 cases with a loud squeak , without doing a darn thing to the shoulder. They chambered with no resistance. I now use a spray lube, making sure some gets in the necks. I used to simply touch each case mouth to my lube pad, to transfer a bit of the lube to the expander ball.

I'm always open to learning new ways and to new ideas, even at the tender age of 64, but the OP's problem was obvious in his first statement. The withdrawal of the expander button was stretching the shoulder out of spec because the die was not setting the shoulder back enough to compensate.

I guess if enough people repeat something, it becomes fact?

What 8mm's problem is, as RC said, he needs to lower the die further so it full length sizes completely. Few know that in the last few thousandths of ram travel, the brass is being forced forward by the die re sizing the front of the case,(the body). This makes the shoulder move forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, the shoulder STAYS forward, causing hard chambering.

[counterclockwise]

What 8mm's problem is, as RC said, he needs to lower the die further so it full length sizes completely. Few know that in the last few thousandths of ram travel, the brass is being forced forward by the die re sizing the front of the case,(the body). This makes the shoulder move forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, the shoulder STAYS forward, causing hard chambering

The OP said the fire formed case chambers OK. The resized case interferes with bolt closure.

Your solution, while good and often applicable, does not fit the problem as expressed by the OP. So, just do this to see if Hornady's suggestion is valid:

Another way to isolate the problem and verify the Hornady diagnosis is to take the decapping/expander stem out of the die. Resize the fire-formed case and see if it still chambers and allows bolt closure easily. If it does, then Hornady hunch is correct, if not, then the problem is elsewhere. Of course, this assumes that the decapper/expander stem is removable from the die.

[snuffy]

The OP said the fire formed case chambers OK. The resized case interferes with bolt closure.

Your solution, while good and often applicable, does not fit the problem as expressed by the OP. So, just do this to see if Hornady's suggestion is valid:

Yes, I agree, it would prove it,(Hornady's guess). Then when the bolt still closes with difficulty, then maybe he'll do what we've been telling him all along, turn the die down further!

[counterclockwise]

Note: The only other explanation that I can think of is that the OP has a chamber that is oversize on diameter. When the fire formed case is resized, the die would push the over-expanded body back to a smaller diameter and the case grows in length between rim and shoulder while in the die. This may be as far fetched as stretching the shoulder with the expander stem. I don't know. If this were the case, then RC's solution would be spot on.

[Innovative]

Just look at all of the guesswork going on here! I'm saying that you can now measure your chamber clearance within half a thousandth (.0005"). Why spend so much time guessing when you can know for sure?

If you look around on any shooting forum, you'll see that there are a jillion shooters out there with these same thoughts and questions. We've all met shooters at the range with handloads that won't chamber. Some calibers have unique reloading charactoristics, and the cause for "fail to chamber" does vary.

If you guys were having a house built, I'm sure you would want the carpenters to take measurements . . . . right?

- Innovative

[Walkalong]

Gadgets to measure all things possible are cool and all, but a reloader doesn't need anything more than a dial caliper just to get reloads to chamber. Don't really even need that.

Now to get reloads that only size the brass just barely enough to chamber with no problems so we can get brass to last much longer, the tools come in very handy.

Mostly folks just need to use their chamber to get reloads that fit well without overworking the brass. The best way is to remove the firing pin assembly and use the guns chamber as a guide.

The next best method is to buy some cool tools and measure everything as closely as possible.

To get brass fitting the chamber as closely as possible, we need all those cool measurement tools.

[Innovative]

walkalong ........

I agree . . . . well somewhat . . . . almost. However, with our Digital Headspace Gauge there's no need to disassemble your riifle to get this measurement. Just compare one of your resized cases to one of your fired cases . . . . very simple.

- Innovative

[Walkalong]

I agree . . . . well somewhat . . . . almost.Me too.....:)

Don't think I don't have some cool partially unnecessary measuring tools/gadgets laying around. ;)

[snuffy]

I agree . . . . well somewhat . . . . almost. However, with our Digital Headspace Gauge there's no need to disassemble your riifle to get this measurement. Just compare one of your resized cases to one of your fired cases . . . . very simple.


Digital? If a person can't read a micrometer scale,,, --- well maybe he/she should take up knitting! I'm referring to the RCBS case mic. It apparently does the same thing.

I agree with walkalong, it's so darn simple to just size a case, then run that case into the chamber. If it resists, turn the die down some more.

Once in a while, a too tight headspace, coupled with overly long die or a thicker than normal shell holder, you can't get the case sized enough to close the bolt. THEN you have to remove metal from the top of the shell holder or the bottom of the die.

The only way to get an actual measurement is to get some sort of case mic. Just fits is fine for reliable shells, but knowing just how much is comforting.

Then there's my Savage .308! Doing the normal FL die set-up, shell holder tight against bottom of FL die. Signs of incipient case head separations after just 2 loadings. I ordered and received a RCBS case mic. turns out the "normal" set-up procedure resulted in setting the shoulder back 14 thousandths!

[Deavis]

I used to pull the expander through .243 cases with a loud squeak , without doing a darn thing to the shoulder

So you measured the shoulder to make sure it didn't move? Well, I guess modify the shoulder angle would probably be the better description of the phenomenon. In other words you checked shoulder position at the datum with and without the ball in there? Can you share that data with us, I'm interested in seeing your measurements and seeing if it correlates with mine.

[Walkalong]

Here is the cheapest way I know, for multiple calibers, to keep from setting the shoulder back to much. I have one running around here somewhere. Just add a dial caliper.

It is meant to check bullets, but you can use a hole that the neck fits through and where the comparator rests on the shoulder.

Sinclair Bullet Comparator (http://www.sinclairintl.com/product/5582/Bullet-Comparators)

[snuffy]

So you measured the shoulder to make sure it didn't move? Well, I guess modify the shoulder angle would probably be the better description of the phenomenon.

That was 35 years ago, no longer own that rifle, I didn't measure anything at that time. Just loaded shells, went shooting. I just am saying it didn't change either shoulder angle or position, just made a lot of noise.

[Seedtick]

Walkalong - Here is the cheapest way I know, for multiple calibers, to keep from setting the shoulder back to much. I have one running around here somewhere. Just add a dial caliper.

It is meant to check bullets, but you can use a hole that the neck fits through and where the comparator rests on the shoulder.

Sinclair Bullet Comparator
:D
That's what I use, well I use the set made by Hornady.


ST

[fguffey]

Snuffy, that is the reason I form first then fire, again, I have an Eddystone with .016 thousands head space, that is a work out for any case new or used, I use 280 Remington cases new or once fired to form cases for chambers that have a long chamber, The R-P Cylinder brass (2.650 long with no shoulder) is the only wildcat case made that requires the shoulder to be formed by establishing it anywhere the hand loader is capable of putting it, for me all the rest of the cases are made too short, except when forming 8mm57 from 30/06, forming 308W from 8mm57 or 30/06, forming 35 Whelen and 338/06 from 280 Remington, etc.. Putting the shoulder where I want it is no accident.This technique also allows me to determine where the shoulder is located in relation to the bolt face 'before firing'.

The shoulder on the 280 Remington is ahead of the 30/06 shoulder .051 thousands, when setting up the the die and shell holder I use a feeler gage to create a gap of .016 thousands then size the 280 case to 30/06 +.016 thousands, after sizing, I trim then attempt to chamber, if the case does not chamber I decrease the gap to .015 and size the case again. When trimming I add the .016 thousands to the case length between the head of the case and shoulder.

And when necking up the 280 Remington case 338/06 and 35 Whelen the case shortens, this saves trimming, much easier than trying to get a case to cover the chamber when the case is too short as when forming 35 Whelen from 30/06 cases, by the time the process is finished the case is as much as .035 shorter than it was when the project started.

Necking up shortens the case/ necking down lengthens the case when the case is measured before and after sizing, when not measured there are assumptions as to what goes on, I use the RCBS Case Prep Center, I clean the necks with a brush that rotates with case lube on it, this helps eliminate the clunks and squeaks, in my opinion the $100.00 + or - spent on the case prep center is one of the best investments a hand loader can make, and it is a labor saving devise.

F. Guffey

[ranger335v]

"..Hornady guy said check the expander ball,..ONLY THING that could make the case...grow longer during sizing ...is that the expander ball drags on the neck on the way out and stretches the shoulder...stretches the case out just behind the shoulder. "

Snuffy" - "I've seen this answer so much here and on other forums, but, I don't buy it! In order to pull the neck AND shoulder forward enough to cause hard chambering, the expander ball would have to be damn near GLUED to the case!"

Roger that! Sure, it sounds so "true" that it must be so, right" But, it's nonsense, at least so far as stated. Yeah, it MIGHT move a shoulder a thou but that isn't going to be enough to even notice when chambering a round. Improper die adjustment covers 99.9%, maybe more.

Trying to set a die, any kind, by the numbers is virtually pointless. Just set the dies as they need be in order to work! Each die maker also makes presses so they write their "directions" for their own presses only well enough so a beginner can make ammo that will go BOOM, no more. Learning how to make better ammo that actually fits our own rifles is a large part of what reloading is about and no die or book "instructions" are going to tell us how to do that.

Understanding what our tools actually do and what our rifles NEED is the first hurtle. Then using the tools to make a proper fit in our rifle is OUR task, not a book's. And that may take a bit of experimentation?

In the very rare instance that a shell holder is actually a tad deep AND is coupled with a die that is a tad long can be cured by grinding/sanding a couple of thou off the bottom of the die. And that's NOT a big deal either.

There is precious litte wear on a case hardened shell holder and a case hardened die mouth that has no moving/sliding contact as they are used.

[fguffey]

I have an in-line, angle and butt grinder, two lathes and a mill, before I would grind the shell holder and or die, I would use a feeler gage, the feeler gage can be used to duplicate anything that can or is accomplished by grinding, I size cases from .017 thousands under a go-gage size chamber (with a Lee shell holder I can add .005 to that) to .011+ without compromising the integrity of the shell holder and or die.

If full length sizing means adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn? the shell holder and die must make 100% contact, the 'no big thing' coulcauseses contact on one side or the other, this could cause flexing, may not be 'no bit thing' but the 30/40 Krag had one locking lug, the 303 Enfield has rear locking lugs, somrifleses have bolts that do not contact the bearing surface of the receiveequallyly, alignment and 10intacttact is a big thing, when it comesto grinding, even with the equipment, I applie the 'leaver policy' I leaver the way I founder.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

If full length sizing means adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn? the shell holder and die must make 100% contact, the 'no big thing' could cause contact on one side or the other, this could cause flexing, may not be 'no bit thing' but the 30/40 Krag had one locking lug, the 303 Enfield has rear locking lugs, some rifles have bolt lugs that do not contact the bearing surface of the receiver equally, alignment and 100% contact is a big thing, when it comes to grinding, even with the equipment, I apply the 'leaver policy' I leaver the way I founder.

Sorry about that,



F. Guffey

[Offfhand]

Jeff, when you say the fired round will rechamber easily but doesn't after resizing you've answered your own question. Obviously, something is happening your case when you resize that increases either diameter or length, or both. Screwing the sizing die down further clearly isn't the solution because, as you say, the fired case fits already so what would be accomplished by making it smaller? So for a simple test do this: Remove the entire neck button stem assembly, resize the case and see how it fits your rifle. If bolt closes easily you've pinpointed your problem.

[snuffy]

Screwing the sizing die down further clearly isn't the solution because, as you say, the fired case fits already so what would be accomplished by making it smaller? So for a simple test do this: Remove the entire neck button stem assembly, resize the case and see how it fits your rifle. If bolt closes easily you've pinpointed your problem.

Yes it is! We've already debunked the expander button "pulling" the neck or shoulder forward. I already stated that the last few thousandths of case movement forward inside the FL die squeezes the body of the case behind the shoulder forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, that shoulder STAYS in the forward position. Hence the difficult chambering.

Jeffrey8mm has not returned to say if our tips have helped, so we're all making WAGs as to what the problem is.

[ranger335v]

"If full length sizing means adjusting the die down to the shell holder with an additional turn?"

But, it isn't. That's the "conventional wisdom" way to size any kind of cases so they will chamber and go BOOM, but it's not automatically the best way to "FL" size anything. Best way is to actually set the case shoulder back just enough to insure easy chambering. Going past that point unnecessarily increases case stretch and leads to the oft repeated "toss a case that has been fired fired times", etc. IF the case NEEDS to be jammed hard against the die, fine, do it, but, if not, just do what's needed and smile.


"the shell holder and die must make 100% contact,"

Sounds okay doesn't it? But why? Fact is, there is no reason to think any slight die/shell holder contact offset due to less than precise die mouth grinding will automatically result in the case taking on that offset. Why should it? The major case siing resistance, or 'back push' on a case is from the tapered walls and shoulder, NOT the last thousant on the thick web and head. Thus, any rational small amount of "out of square" opening to the die mouth will have little or no impact on the resized cases. Some cases do have heads that are out of square from the manufactor and it's been clearly proven that no FL sizing technique can correct it, nor does firing at very high pressues rarely correct it. Stands to reason that no simple FL sizing technique can induce it either!


"Screwing the sizing die down further clearly isn't the solution because, as you say, the fired case fits already so what would be accomplished by making it smaller?"

Not so, it doesn't fit, that's why it's difficult to close the bolt. Anytime something won't fit into a space, it is by defination too large. ?? The ONLY way to make that case fit is to make it smaller. Since it's very unlikely that a (nearly) fully resized case is too large in diameter all that remains is that the shoulder is too far forward. Screw the die down, likely another sixteenth turn (4.5 thousanth) will do it.

[USSR]

the last few thousandths of case movement forward inside the FL die squeezes the body of the case behind the shoulder forward. If the die is NOT far enough down, that shoulder STAYS in the forward position. Hence the difficult chambering.

+1. The act of reducing the cartridge body dimensions with a FL die, forces the brass (and hence shoulder) to go the only place it can, forward.

Don

[ranger335v]

" The act of reducing the cartridge body dimensions with a FL die, forces the brass (and hence shoulder) to go the only place it can, forward."

Exactly so. At least until it's pushed back by the die shoulder. And if we don't push it back far enough it will be difficult or impossible to close the bolt. ??

[Walkalong]

The shoulder moves forward a bit inside the sizer as the case body is sized down, until the die shoulder starts pushing the case shoulder back.

I wonder how far off the shell holder the die has to be to only move the shoulder forward when sizing?

[Innovative]

Walkalong ........

That's what this is for .....

http://www.larrywillis.com/COAD-06SM.jpg

- Innovative

[Walkalong]

Touche......:D

[ranger335v]

"I wonder how far off the shell holder the die has to be to only move the shoulder forward when sizing?"

I believe we can be sure the shoulder starts moving forward immediatly when the case wall contacts the die wall, no matter how far off shell holder contact that may be.

[Walkalong]

To only move the shoulder forward when sizing?

In other words, how far off the shell holder when the die shoulder contacts the case shoulder and before and puts it back to at least where it started.

I believe we can be sure the shoulder starts moving forward immediatly when the case wall contacts the die wall, no matter how far off shell holder contact that may be.Absolutely.

[fguffey]

"Sizing the case and the effect sizing has on the position of the shoulder, first the neck gets sized then the body of the case starts to get sized, when this happens the shoulder is pushed forward, then the shoulder gets sized, this is the reason I like the versatility of the full length sizer die, it neck sizes with partial body support, with a feeler gage the effect the case length has on head space can be controlled, the feeler gage works better than a 'tad' or 'smidgen' '"

Before the Internet and before anyone on this forum discovered it it was written the shoulder moves forward when the body is sized, not in a conventional way but the shoulder takes on a slight arch or radius similar to the shoulder on a Weatherby case. When forming Weatherby cases to other calibers, the radius disappears with no more than the the weight of the handle on the press.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

If the hand loader can (will) adjust the die in the press to the shell holder and has the ability to determine head space before firing and can transfer the head space measurement to the die, press and shell holder the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder when sized eliminates guessing and leaves nothing to be assumed.

There are other gages I find helpful, not recognizable, for measuring case head expansion, case expansion and the effect the camber has on fired cases, not expensive but foreign to the hand loader.

F. Guffey

[Offfhand]

It would be helpful if some real experts on handloading would chime in, but I expect they're having too much fun watching this. Assuming that is, that they ever take the time to look a this stuff.

[ricehombre]

Haven't seen it mentioned yet but you may want to check the primers. If it isn't seated flush or below, it usually will not chamber on most rifles. Dirty primer pockets or a weak hand on a hand primer will get you with hard primers.

[USSR]

It would be helpful if some real experts on handloading would chime in, but I expect they're having too much fun watching this.

If you knew the background of some of the people who have chimed in, you wouldn't make that statement.

Don

[Jeffery8mm]

I bought a new RCBS #3 shellholder in order to eliminate that possibility. I will try both removing the decap/exp ball unit and then try the turing down of the die. I then will post the results. Thanks for all the info fellows!!!!!!!!
Jeff

[jfdavis58]

Can you show this part in detail?http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l345/jfdavis58/piece.jpg

Or explain the mechanism?

[Innovative]

jfdavis58 ........

The picture you copied (above) shows the "adjustable v-block" on our Digital Headspace Gauge. It adjusts to fit the shoulder of your case, and the rear screw locks that setting. Then you set the height of this asm. on one of your fired cases and zero the gauge. Any case readings after that will display your exact chamber clearance (at the shoulder).

Here's a good link to see the instructions:
http://www.larrywillis.com/instructions2.html

If you email me, I'll send you an huge image of the picture you posted. That will give you a real good view of the parts.

- Innovative
it@mpinet.net

[Muley]

Whatever sizing die you use,,,, retire it and buy a Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die. Not that your dies are not good but I know the outstanding results I've got through using this die. It's cheap and works well, I can't see using anything else, especially if you are shooting for acuracy, and you are loading for one particular gun. Using a neck sizer like this one keeps the brass the size of the rifles chamber, and eliminates having to trim the case every couple reloads like when using a full lenth sizer. So try this, and follow the specs in your reloading book for proper neck and shoulder measurments for the case.

[fguffey]

Muley, I do not have a lot of Lee products, I do appreciate your contribution, it is not likely Lee is going to reward you, therefore you do not have a financial interest in what equipment a hand loader chooses to use, nor do I,

When someone has a financial interest their contribution sounds like a pitch, I still believe the tool he is selling is a case gage, I believe the tool does little more than satisfy a curiosity, again I move the shoulder back .049 thousands on a 280 Remington to determine if a 30/06 chamber is go-gage size with nothing more than a press, shell holder, die and feeler gage.

In his pitch it is always something RCMODEL and I do not understand.

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffy .....

Try to understand this. I've spent countless hundreds of hours writing over 125 pages on my website that "share" reloading and shooting techniques. (I only sell 2 products.) Our Digital Headspace Gauge is the latest, and it solves the problem described in the original post. Don't get ticked off at fellow shooters when they show shooting related products. Making a reasonable profit is a good thing (except in Obama's agenda).

If you knew how much it takes to get any product to market in the U.S. you would understand that it's a miracle our industry still exists. The lawyers make it mandatory to buy a million dollar insurance policy before Midway or Cabela's can even buy a product. I paid that price for 2 years, but the cost of the policy kept going up as sales increased. Believe me, there are many awesome shooting and reloading products that will never be seen by shooters, and only a limited few shooters will own those products - thanks to the lawyers.

Due to the fact that my Digital Headspace Gauge solves the problem that was originally posted, and that it is totally NEW and unique, most shooters are interested to hear about it. Have a little understanding that there are new ideas (and products) that really need to be seen by shooters, and profit is only a dirty word to the socialist liberals.

- Innovative

[fguffey]

I will be more flattering, rather than say you do not comprehend what is being said I will say you are ignoring others attempt to contribute, I said the tool satisfies a curiosity and that is to determine the effect the chamber has on a case when fired, once the curiosity has been satisfied the information gained is nice to know. I know the effect the chamber will have on the case before I fire, I form first then fire, when I use a tool to measure the effect the chamber has on a case I am using a case gage, when I I check a chamber for head space and the effect it will have on a case, I use a head space gage.

Nice to know, once the case is fired it fits,leave it that way by neck sizing, again I choose to neck size with a full length sizer die, most recommend a neck sizer die, I like the added benefit of case support

You have said nothing about how the nice information gained from your tool can used when adjusting the die, shell holder and press, for those that have been around for a while few are so vain as to think or present information in such a manner that would lead someone else to believe they invented hand loading, for the most part I am passing 'IT' on.

F. Guffey

[Walkalong]

For my 6 PPC cases I use a short piece of an old barrel that has been partially "chambered". They run the reamer in it enough to cut the neck and most of the the shoulder. I can take a piece of brass, stick it in this "gauge", & get a measurement with my dial caliper. If I do that on fired brass, and then sized brass, it will tell me how far I have moved the shoulder. That, plus the unknown of how far back the case rebounded (shrunk back) inside the chamber, is my "working headspace". Pretty simple. If you really wanted to know exactly how much, you could make a cerrosafe cast of your chamber, & get measurement with it first. That would take the elasticity of the brass out of the equation.

There are simple ways to get our measurements, and complicated ways to get our measurements. There are simple tools and fancy tools. Used with care, most ways work.

[Innovative]

fguffey .....

I completely agree with you about preferring a FL die instead of a NK die. It's much better to use the FL die while it's supported by the whole case. That assures perfect concentric alignment, and if done right a FL die can bump the shoulder very accurately - just like having custom dies.

When a resized case is accurately compared (at the shoulder) to a fired case - the difference represents chamber clearance. That's what our Digital Headspace Gauge measures.

You mentioned that I should explain how this nice information can be used. Hopefully this link will help:

Click on - Operating Instructions (http://www.larrywillis.com/instructions2.html)

I'm not saying that I invented handloading, but almost 4,000 shooters now find it much easier by using our patented tools. Visit our website and you'll see a whole lot of other reloading tools that I don't make, and why I recommend some of them. My main goal is to support shooters, and to preserve our gun rights. If it wasn't for motivated shooters we would not have gun rights in America today.

- Innovative

[fguffey]

"If done right"? There has to be more than two ways to adjust a die CORRECTLY, you do not form first, make transfers and or standards, the word FEELER GAGE is not in your vocabulary and you do not read my mail, that leaves at lease one more way to adjust the die to the shell holder in the press correctly, correct?

Again, what do you do with the information gained when measuring the effect the chamber had on the case when it was fired, it is not possible to go the ammo store and order ammo that is .000 + .010, that is .001 over the length of a no go-gage, .005 over a go-gage and .010 thousands longer from the head of to it's shoulder than a full length size case (commercial ammo).
If the information is not used to adjust the die to the shell holder, the information is nice to know. One more time, I know the length of the chamber from the bolt face to the shoulder of the chamber before I start loading.

Again, then there is resistance to sizing and springy ole presses, I have strain and deviation gages, nothing new Herters' demonstrated their presses in the 60s being tested with dial indicators measuring deflection, I doubt there were sizing cases that were fired 10 times.

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey .....

I think you're being a bit too defensive. I agree that there are a jillion different ways to measure headspace. I'm just showing a NEW way. When I said "if done right" I was referring to taking an accurate measurement of headspace . . . . any way you want to do it. (I don't care which method you want to use.)

Believe it or not, I'm replying to your questions about how OTHER shooters measure headspace (or not). As you know, many shooters don't measure anything more than OAL, and they'll get by just fine . . . . for a while.

The "nice to know information" you're referring to is clearly explained in the operating instructions. (Follow the link in my last post, and you'll see that.) The measurement that our Digital Headspace Gauge provides represents the actual clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR particular chamber.

Examples:

If our gauge displays +. 002" then this case is two thousandths longer than your chamber.

If our gauge displays -.008" then your chamber is eight thousandths shorter than your chamber.

This information makes it easy to see which way (and how far) to adjust die height to make perfect fitting handloads.

I hope this answers your questions. Again this is information for OTHER shooters out there, and I am definitely not reflecting on your personal measuring technique.

- Innovative

[counterclockwise]

Let's not get the cart before the horse. Read post #67 and OFFFHANDS request. Let the OP finish out his investigation then we can assess the "solution"'s as to which are valid and which are not.

I read the forum's rules on content of posting and find that the 1st amendment is the guideline. So, Innovative's running of crass commercials every other post is to be tolerated, but no less aggravating, I suppose. Maybe that is the cause for "defensiveness"? Maybe there should be a separate thread started advertising the "Digital Headspace Guage"?

[Innovative]

Most shooters find that this is a logical place to find NEW reloading tools and techniques. See post number 68.

[fguffey]

Member



Join Date: October 24, 2009
Location: Casselberry, Florida
Posts: 17 rcmodel ......

You said to RCMODEL:

There's a little more to it than you think. Sometimes you need to raise the die to keep from buckleing the case or increasing chamber clearance. If it only bulges your case by .001" too much, that case also may fail to chamber.


"If our gauge displays -.008" then your chamber is eight thousandths shorter than your chamber"



as you said to me, "your second post was a LITTLE more clear" that is as good as it gets, thank you for the compliment?

I remember another tool that was introduced that must not have had much success, I could have improved on it, it was similar to a tool I built at the request by a person doing third party work in a automotive machine shop, seems there was a complaint, with the advent of hydraulic lifters and the elimination of adjusters, valve stem height was critical but if correct after grinding it was an accident.

I built a tool and gave it to him, he was sharp so it did not take long to explain to him how it worked, he use it for a week then said he was going to try and sell a few, in another week he informed me the tool was flawless, BUT, no one in any shop had time to use it, they had rather have the head(s) come back than do the work correctly, later on another forum I described the tool, later on the same forum a picture appeared of a tool being sold that looked identical to the tool I gave to a friend, except I did not have a knurled body and as I said I could have improved on the design.

So, some post for help, other post to help, somewhere down the line people lurk for ideals. And I agree with having a place to sell commercially, or include RCBS, Redding, Lee, Hornady and Hodgdon tech personal selling their product as a solution to problems, in my opinion that will not happen, I believe they have too much pride, as I said I do not have a lot of Lee products, that does not mean there is a shortage of hand loaders that recommend their product.

F. Guffey

[snuffy]

Well I see that Rube Goldberg is alive and well, now calling himself by the name innovative! That contraption called a case gauge, well, I still don't see how it works! Maybe if I saw enough pictures from different angles, I could see whats holding that V block suspended where it is.

So at $44.99, the RCBS precision mic will do what your gauge will do at half the price,(yours is $89.95)? Or is yours NOT caliber specific. can it be used on any cartridge? Okay, then the Hornady gauge is usable for multiple calibers, $35.99. Of course the Hornady set requires a caliper, which all handloaders need/have anyway.

Good luck selling it, I'm sure it works, I just can't figure out how--------.

[fguffey]

Snuffy, in a machine shop the tool would be called a height gage with an adapter designed to set on the shoulder of a case (without a standard) and is designed to zero (.000)on one case and measure the difference when compared to another case, in the rest of the relaoding world a gage that does that is called a 'case comparator'.

F. Guffey

[Steve Marshall]

I avoided this thread as I suspected there would be more heat tan light. Not so bad.
Setting a die to touch the shellholder works only if the die manufacturer has done a good job. Frequently that is not the case.I am a big fan of case gages and headspace gages, but the latter get a bit pricey. I do have four sets of headspace gages for bottleneck cartridges. And in every instance the Wilson case gages were within .001" of the headspace gages. So at least for four cartridge families, I have verifiable measurements. In two die sets I own(.243 and 30-06), the dies are off the shellholder by an appreciable amount. Not to fault, but they are/were RCBS purchased new. In addition, shellholders do vary. A case in point would be the Redding precision sets. They are designed in .002" steps but the two sets I've checked strayed from the intended .125" -.002' envelope by almost .002 on individual holders but, close enough to attempt it's intended job. I would wager that everyday shellholders get less attention in the QC department.
Those in the manufacturing world will recognize the term "tolerance stack-up".
Couple the variables of tolerance with a touch of inexperience could easily produce the conditions of the OP. Add in that we're not sure whether it was a sized case or a complete cartridge that wouldn't chamber. He indicated that the brass was within spec. on length but was the chamber? What about OAL? Is the bullet jamming the lands? Is the neck diameter okay? Is the neck reasonably straight? Etc. Without further input we are guessing as another poster opined.
As to measuring equipment. Without a means of calibrating, you get some kind of unqualifiable comparative measurement. On another board, in a similar type thread, one experienced loader found that his carefully crafted loads were .003" shorter than thought. He finally checked his Mic with a headspace gage and found the error. And as to dgital case gage? It doesn't account for banana shaped cartridges or shoulder angle or fat necks or out of square heads or buggered heads or raised primer pockets or out of square necks or even how square the tool is or.. well I ran out of ors. I'm sure that the tool could be used as a useful and quick adjunct to other tools especially total envelope tools such as a case gage, but it most certainly is not the end all and be all.

[Innovative]

snuffy ........

Our company Innovative Technologies was incorporated in 1995, and that's where "Innovative" comes from. "Innovative" is also lasered on our products. The RCBS Precision Mic is a pretty good tool for $44.99 but how much are you saving when you need to buy them for reloading different calibers? (Real good for RCBS!) As you mentioned, our Digital Headspace Gauge doesn't require calipers, so you don't need to balance your case on the blade of calipers to take a reading. Unlike other tools, it also doesn't require special bushings, fittings, or rods to take a simple measurement.


Steve ......

Your post has good information according to the original post by mentioning the variables in reloading equipment. However, our Digital headspace Gauge doesn't work quite the way you explained.

The problem you described with the RCBS Precision Mic is one reason I developed the Digital Headspace Gauge. Our gauge is designed to take comparative measurements - not specified measurements. Being that a fired case duplicates your chamber perfectly, our gauge is zeroed (calibrated) on that dimension. After that, you insert a resized case and the display shows the chamber clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads will have in YOUR particular chamber.

Our gauge provides a machined flat base that makes it easy to see variances for raised primer pockets, and you just need to rotate the case to measure the effect of out of square case heads. Our Digital Headspace Gauge replaces a few different tools. However, like other reloading tools, isn't intended to be the "end all be all". Someone still needs to be invent that one.

- Innovative (Larry Willis)

[Steve Marshall]

Therin lies the rub. Not only does a fired case only generally reflect the chamber but how does that help you when using other brass? I hope you aren't telling us that your gage is a one trick pony? As I surmised, your tool could be useful when used with other tools. Problem being brass springback in both the chamber and the reloading die. What is needed is a tool that checks the "envelope" of a cartridge. And that would be a case gage or the chamber.
I do know how your gage works, still, I certainly wouldn't presume to explain in forum. And no, your tool would not show an out of square head by rotating the cartridge. In fact, your tool would show the dimension to be shorter than it is. The only hope would be to rotate the cartridge and read the high and low variation. But even that wouldn't be accurate as only one of the legs of your V would be contacting. Just for this discussion, pretend that the base of the cartridge is 45 degrees to the body. Even you'll agree that your tool will read the brass as short. Now if the axis of the 45 degrees is perpendicular to the V, you'll get a higher reading (but still way short) because one of the legs is contacting before the other. So if your theoretical headspace is 2.000 inches, your tool would show it to be 1.414 when the 45 is parallel to the V and somewhat higher as it rotates 90 degrees to the V. sine of 45 Deg. is .7071. I know that's a ridiculous angle but it makes it easier to visualize.

[Innovative]

Steve .....

I don't know much about ponys. I'm just describing one versitile NEW product .... simply an alternative (but very helpful tool).

When you fire a case, 50,000 PSI ensures that it's just like a casting of your chamber. That's not general - that's as perfect as it gets. I also use the Redding competition shellholders on occasion, and I've found the same variances that you mentioned. In fact, my Digital Headspace Gauge has exposed that inaccuracy, and it often directs me to select a different shellholder than the Redding instructions suggest. I can also measure my finished cases to verify resizing accuracy.

If you're referring to a very expensive, one of a kind, custom made chamber gauge (made by the original chamber reamer) used by top benchrest shooters, then our gauge "might" not be the best choice. However, most shooters don't have their original chamber reamer, and they wouldn't want to pay a machinist to make a chamber gauge - even if they could get their original reamer.

Your example is logical, however, if it was in the relm of any actual measurements, a case would not vary by more than .001" in length, and the case head angle would need to be measured in minutes or seconds - not degrees or thousandths. That's splitting hairs far beyond reloading for most shooters.

[Call me sometime, and I'll tell you about my findings measuring cases with a shadow comparator. That would be a barrel of worms to describe in a forum.]

- Innovative

[jfdavis58]

OK already. The OP has left us all hanging so maybe he is a busy guy-last post to this thread on the 24th of November.

The slap and tickle has been fun but there is always room for another technique or method or tool on the reloading bench-else why we would have several major companies making many of the same items-each just a slight bit different from the others?


Is the general consensus that the OP should readjust per the included with the die instructions and try again?
And then if he still has a problem to either try a second copy of the same dies or contact the manufacturer to replace/repair of his original purchase?
And if he is handloading general purpose/hunting ammo, that he should be using full length resizing dies?
And further, he should benefit from buying a cartridge gauge ala Lyman or Wilson and the requisite steel edge (ruler) to make the tool work correctly?




Innovation: I looked carefully at your new tool. Seems rather one-off-ish, that is I can adjust the screws for one cartridge, lock in place and measure the same caliber many time

but

if I change calibers then there is no accurate way to return to the original setting/caliber.

This is not an improvement over the Stoney-Point/Hornady L-N-L case/bullet comparator with an ordinary dial or digital caliper except for the stationary base. (Similarly with the Sinclair 'nut device' for bullet/case comparison.) I do like the dial indicator-easy for old eyes, but you really need something absolutely repeatable across many cartridges and bullets. Taking an RCBS Case Master approach and expanding it to include the comparator function previously listed would step on a lot of proprietary material but might appeal to those who like one-stop shopping.

As for the feeler gauge approach (of fguffey I believe), such has been incorporated by one Mr Skip (something) or (something) Skip. A set of graduated washer style shims with sizing indicator notches in 0.003, 0.004, 0.005, 0.006, 0.007 0.008 and 0.010 thicknesses.

The manner of operation is straightforward: Insert dies trough a 0.007 shim and install on the press. Adjust per directions and using an RCBS/Hornady/other locking nut, activate the locking feature snugly. To move die up or down in as small as 0.001 increments removed die and locking nut carefully to preserve dimensionality and substitute the desired shim.

Zediker (et al, I presume) suggest dies and locking nuts need be on finger snug and checked periodically for best results. This is a significant difference from dies on a progressive press where makers recommend the use of a wrench.

And the cat is out of the bag as to why dies don't typically have hex heads for wrenches.)

[Innovative]

jfdavis58 .......

I don't think you understand exactly how the Digital Headspace Gauge works. That's perfectly understandable without ever having seen the instructions, because this is a NEW product. It's a unique device, and that's why I'm explaining it. This gauge is patented because of the adjustable V-block asm. However, it's all explained (in great detail) on my website.

The digital gauge slides up and down on a vertical shaft, and then it locks anywhere you want. That makes it adjustable for comparing any case from a .22 Hornet to the 416 Rem. Magnum.

Whoever made the original post ..... sorry for the unintended hijack of your thread. Judging from the number of phone calls I'm getting, this thread has helped several shooters. Thanks to everyone for helping me tell "the rest of the story".

- Innovative

[Steve Marshall]

jfdavis58: pretty much
Innovative: 50,000 or more or less psi doesn't guarantee anything. All firearms flex. Don't tell me you've never seen a banana case. Or an out of square case. Or... you get the drift and you want to promote your product. Fine. But you're going a little Herter's on us. Please consider that a tool that measures or gives a comparative reading of the envelope package of the case is the Holy Grail of resizing. Yours might be nice to have but it cannot do that. I've never talked to a custom smith and probably never will. I use Wilson case gages but there are others. And just for fun, next time you size a case, put it in one of your Wilson's and indicate the head. Very few are parallel to the surface plate. blah, blah, blah.

[fguffey]

I do not know which skip, skip before skip after, I remember a conversation, I said I use 'THE COMPANION GAGE' to the press, a machinist feeler gage to adjust the die to the shell holder in the press, later I was asked about locating large pieces of thin shim stock, I suggested locating shim that are used to seal/adjust fuel injectors etc., I thought the torque of the nut against the thin shim would destroy it, I suggested he use two washer, drill a hole through the washers, mount them on the press with a 7/8x14 bolt screwed in from the bottom then align the holes and drill and pin the press THEN use the shim between the washers, the pin would prevent the washers from rotating, then it got into the only way to secure the lock nut in the press, I explained my method, if a lock nut is secured to the die and in my position, the die is not my die, I adjust the die to the shell holder in the press every time, then secure the die to the press with the lock nut, I use the lock nut to remove the slack between the die threads and the threads in the press, on that forum the most common response was "I do to" that forum at the time was dysfunctional at best.

Another question was about neck sizing with a full length sizer, I suggested removing the washer from the 38 Special/357 Mag sizer die set, again this gets us to where we are now, the washer would work if he only sizes for one chamber and he secures the lock nut to the die, again I said I don't, if I used the washer I would place it on the top of the shell holder then adjust the die down until it contacted the washer, then secure the die to the press with the nut.

Skip before? Skip after? 'It may not have been skip' could not grab the concept of placing a feeler gage between the deck of the shell holder and bottom of the case head to shorten the length of the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder by reducing the .125 deck height of the shell holder, again I shorten the distance between the case head and shoulder .017 (below the length of the perfect chamber, go-gage size) thousands with an RCBS shell holder, add .005 if I am using a Lee shell holder, Skip before? Skip after could stack 1.00 shims between the lock nut and top of the press and never get to the point where the case got shorter when sizing, not an argument but logic, if the shim between the deck of the shell holder and bottom of the case can be used to form cases for short chambers, why not use the feeler gage to adjust the gap between the top of the shell holder and bottom of the die? I do not know, the one thing that scared me about that forum always came when someone ask a question, a good helpful answer was given and the OP said something like 'Thank You'

And I said Redding shell holders are nice to have but the companion to the press 'feeler gage' could duplicate anything the Redding shell holder could accomplish, they were big on grinding dies and shell holders, the reason for grinding was known only to the person doing the grinding. The companion to the press the feeler gage cost $11.00, at harbor freight $5.00.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Back to the first page:

Innovative said: To me.

"I've found that most shooters avoid checking head space altogether, because they've seen 1,000 complicated ways of measuring it. Reloading is not rocket science. Visit our website and you'll see over 125 pages of reloading tech tips that help shooters make better hand loads, while keeping it simple".


6 months ago + or - 6 months I said I purchased a mill from a collector of 03s, a most knowledgeable resource person on Garands and anything 03, while gathering up the parts and pieces he mentioned building a period correct 03 for 1911 and needed to check the head space, he mentioned going to a forum and discussing methods and techniques, with (on that forum) predictable results, lofty terms and hypothetical, the 'datum liners' being the worst offenders, it turned into 'head space can not be checked and or discussed on the Internet.

I explained to him 'this is your lucky day' I can check the head space on that chamber three different ways 'AND' you have the tools to accomplish all three methods on that bench and in that tool box. he explained to me he had head space gages, the go would go the no-go would not, his question was about barrels, chambers and bolts, he wanted the perfect chamber, not one that was between A and B, he wanted to know how far beyond A and How far behind B, then I added 'without a head space gage' as in three ways of checking head space without a head space gage and added I could modify his go-gage into a 'go to infinity-gage' I explained to him I do not use head space gages, they are nice to have and talk about but when I check head space I check head in thousands.

The period correct 03 requires a straight handle, he was limited when it came to changing bolts, he had one, I have 30 plus loose bolts, all bent, I have one straight handle in a Rock Island 03. He was curious as to why I did not use gages, I explained to him I did not shoot gages I shoot ammo, seldom new commercial the rest I load. He had a new box of Remington 30/06 he was going to use when he tested the rifle, that is what we started with, I had him get the 'press companion tool' the machinist feeler gage and I started by pulling the bolt back to set the lugs against the receiver (bolt closed) then measured the GAP between the rear receiver ring and the exposed 3 locking (safety) lug, then chambered a new Remington unfired commercial round from his box of new Remington cartridges, I pushed the bolt forward (nicely) to seat the cartridge, then measured the gap between the safety lug and rear receiver ring again, the difference in the two measurements = head space for that cartridge in that chamber with that bolt, then I proceeded to measure the effect each cartridge in a box of 20 had on head space. with the .005 built into the perfect chamber/cartridge he had an average of .0075, I suggested we change the bolt and check it's effect on head space etc., then I demonstrated a method for checking the effect a bolt has on head space. As I said I have 30 loose bolts, it is safe to say a bolt is a bolt is a bolt except for the markings, and period correctness.

"Reloading is not rocket science", if it is not RC, whey are we still talking about it?

"I've found that most shooters avoid checking head space altogether, because they've seen 1,000 complicated ways of measuring it". How complicated is a feeler gage? If checking head source on an 03 is checked with a feeler gage, the money for the 'press companion' does not go to the reloading industry, I suggest the reloading industry start selling the 'companion to the press' tool.

Does the difficult finical times have an influence on your persistence meaning if it is not sold here will you be in finical difficulty? You keep telling me I do not understand, I need to understand and If you knew how . What I understand is a head space gage is a head space gage, a case gage is a case gage and the feeler gage became the 'Companion Gage' to the press.

And I demonstrated to the collector a method/technique for measuring the effect a case has on head space by measuring the case from the head of the case to it's shoulder (with tools from his bench and tool box(s)) in the perfect chamber. The rifle he was building indicated he had .0075 head space, while checking the length of the case from the head of the case to the shoulder he handed me a go-gage, I checked the gage, it was .005 thousands longer than ONE of the new Remington cartridges, the gages were given to him by a good friend first and after that a master machinist-gun smith.

And the datum is not a line, it is a circle, round hole, the circle round hole for the 30/06 is 3/8 of an inch or .375.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INLMPI?PMPANO=0515600&PMKBNO=2038&PMPAGE=6&PMCTLG=01

Comparator Stand Post

F. Guffey

[Walkalong]

http://i183.photobucket.com/albums/x37/Walkalong/popcornbigbox.gif Carry on. I am enjoying this one. :)

[fguffey]

Walkalone, Alabama? My wife has been included into something called the 'HOOVER NATION' by family and a couple of coaches, she is looking forward to this week end. They provided her the link below that allows her to listen to the games. Exciting football.

http://www.talkradio1055.com/main.html

F. Guffey

[Walkalong]

Bama fans, like myself, are excited to have the opportunity to play Florida again for the SEC title. Maybe this year we can do it. :cool:

Back to the topic on hand. :)

[Ryder]

As you know, many shooters don't measure anything more than OAL, and they'll get by just fine . . . . for a while.


I guess that would be me. I have never measured headspace and never experienced a case head separation. The only brass failure I have ever experienced are an occasional split neck. I toss brass which shows signs of stretching near the case head but can get several loadings before that becomes evident.

Bottlenecked rifle calibers I have reloaded for over the last 20 years are the 30-30, 30-06, and 243 Win. I have the equipment to load for 3 other calibers but have yet to load any ammo for them (still collecting brass from factory loads) 7.62x39mm. 223, and 308 Win.

I know what headspace is but my guns are set up from the factory and I don't change barrels myself so I don't worry about the hardware dimensions.

I adjust the sizing die to full length resize by bottoming it out on the shell holder (except the 243 which I only neck size). I do this because I shoot semi-autos mostly and it supposedly promotes better feeding.

I am about to begin loading my accumulated brass for the 7.62x39mm. 223, and 308 Win (just bought an M1A Scout). I would measure my loaded cartridges if I thought it was important but after all these years that doesn't seem to be the case to me.

I am open to logic if someone can tell me why it is needed if I am full length resizing anyway I would appreciate it and be prone to listen. This is a great discussion. From what I gather measuring headspace on my 243 would be most useful since I occasionally experience a stiff bolt closure on neck sized rounds?

Thanks.

[SlamFire1]

I am open to logic if someone can tell me why it is needed if I am full length resizing anyway I would appreciate it and be prone to listen.

This entire thread started because the OP posted this statement:

I have a Howa .308 win that is giving me fits on sizing. I fire a round and it will rechamber easily. Once I full length size it in my hornady dies, it is hard to close the bolt on the round. Trim length is ok. I think it is a shoulder issue. How can I solve this?? Is it a die adjustment problem?? Die is screwed in till it touches the shellholder, then 1/8 to 1/4 round farther.

This gentleman is following the typical guidance given to full length size to the shell holder and add a bit, and yet, something is not working.

He does not know what the problem is because he does not have the ability to measure.

If you cannot measure the problem, then you cannot control the problem. Heck, you don’t even understand the problem because without measurements, all you are doing is philosophizing. It took millennium to have standards, standardization, and gauging accepted in industry. Now everyone expects that all things are modular and 100% interchangeable.

Well they are not.

When I have dropped in chamber headspace gages into my cartridge headspace gages, everything lines up. The Go gage goes the minimum in a cartridge headspace gage, and the No Go lines up perfectly with the maximum. That gives me confidence that both type of gages were made against a calibrated standard.

Until you get gages, you have no idea how seldom following the factory instructions of “touch the shellholder and add a quarter turn” ever produces ammunition that headspaces between the Go and No Go.

That is why I use cartridge headspace gages. They are a lot easier to use than stripping off the firing pin mechanism, extractor, ejector off a bolt and using the chamber as a guide.

And that is assuming that the rifle is correctly headspaced. That is why I have chamber headspace gages. To ensure that the chamber is within headspace.

One issue that is not addressed is why do we have "headspace". Rifle manufacturers and cartridge manufactures are following a standard so that ammunition is interchangable and safe. The rule of thumb is that cases will rupture if stretched more than .006". That is why we control rifle headspace and cartridge headspace. Function and safety.

How complicated is a feeler gage?

How calibrated is your feeler gage?

I do not have a way to calibrate my gages, I do not own a calibration lab, I just have to assume that the gages are made properly. Since these gages are made of hardened steel, I am not worried about wear. Feeler gages are thin, subject to rust and wear.

[Walkalong]

Until you get gages, you have no idea how seldom following the factory instructions of “touch the shellholder and add a quarter turn” ever produces ammunition that headspaces between the Go and No Go. Yep. We assume the tolerances in our dies are right and load happily and blissfully ignorantly. Which is OK.

We full length size and it works, so we assume we are within specs. (Go, No Go etc) We are happy and shoot that way for years. We may not get the best case life, but it works. (To the die makers credit, they get it right a great deal)

Then one day we get a new caliber/dies, or we get a new gun with a tighter chamber, or a looser one, and we start to have problems. We have no idea why, and until we learn exactly how things are supposed to work, and how to measure them, we are going to have trouble because we don't know which way to go.

As I posted earlier, there are many ways to measure these things, some simple, some not so simple, some fancy tools and some plain jane stuff. Which of those we use is not as important as understanding what we are doing.

[Innovative]

SlamFire1 ....

I agree. If shooters don't measure chamber clearance (at the shoulder), they're just guessing, and like the original post they'll have a hard time understanding what's really happening.

Go-no/go gauges just show that your chamber is within industry standards. If your chamber clearance is on the high side of the acceptable range (about -.006") your case will stretch that distance every time it's fired. It's much better to have your case stretch only .001" and prevent any chance of a headspace separation. Your brass will obviously last a lot longer too.

Certain calibers are prone to crack at the neck first. This is much more common for shooters that don't anneal the cases of those particular calibers. Your die and shellholder also need to be made within industry standards. Hopefully they are . . . . .

I designed the Digital Headspace Gauge to measure the clearance (at the shoulder) thet YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber. This method doesn't require disassembling any part of your rifle, and it doesn't care about any measured datum line or cartridge drawings. It helps if you NK or FL resize, and it quickly points out the problem described in the original post. So far, about 500 shooters are now using our Digital Headspace Gauge.

[If you have another method to measure chamber clearance ... go for it.]

- Innovative

[fguffey]

Slam fire, you purchased a go-gage, I guess you stripped the bolt, chambered the gage, closed the bolt, and as expected it closed, it must have been a let down because that is all there is, like I said I can convert a go gage to a go- to-infinity gage, that is a gage that measures head space from .005 in .000 thousands to a practical distance beyond a field length gage. or Hatchers modified chamber with .125 (+ the .005? it started with) head space or the 30/06 chamber with the shoulder moved forward .125 thousands. He was puzzled as to why something did not go wrong, for his effort he extracted fire formed cases for his 30/06 Hatcher Modified chamber, something between a 30/06 and a 30 Gibbs.

I did not say I do not have go-gages, I said I did not use them, I do not have a calibration lab I have comparator gages that are identical to the digital head space gage, I also have two that are gear driven, one is/was electronic, a Pratt and Whitney, the total amount of dial travel from either side of .000 does not = to .001, it measures down to .00001, I removed the electronics and installed a dial indicator on the stylist, the max. height is 14 inches, yes I can verify a measurement I do not have a lab.

"I do not have a way to calibrate my gages, I do not own a calibration lab"

If you believe you do not have a way to calibrate your gages and or convinced you do not have the tools to test and or verify measurements, forgive me for wasting your time, but these things do not hang me up, I can use a feeler gage to check a dial caliber for accuracy, I can check one against the other to see if they agree, I can use a feeler gage to check a micrometer, straight edge (two required), etc., etc.,

'That is all there is' and the 'let down feeling', not for me, the head space gage can be used to set up a sizer die, remove the primer punch.sizer ball assembly from the die, install the die in the press, install the head space gage in the(?) shell holder, raise the ram and lower the die down to the head space gage until it contacts the shoulder of the head space gage, then secure the die to the press with the lock nut, cases sized using this technique are sized .005 thousands over a full length sized (minimum length) case. to verify the setting measure the gap between the shell holder and die. If the case after sizing will not chamber, decrease the gap with a feeler gage, there should come a time when confidence in the equipment would take some of the mystery out of reloading.

(?) shell holder, I was told this technique would not work, the head space gage would not fit the shell holder (not all head space gages, some will not fit, as in stripping the bolt to check head space, (that was started by someone that had a gage that had another purpose and not intended for someone that did not understand the it's purpose) so I asked about the deck height of the #3 shell holder, it was .125, I suggested using the #4 shell holder, same deck height, if it is not .125 send it back, RCBS will give you another one.

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

Innovative, on the other forum someone asked you a question, is it safe for me to assume you have a rapport with this person? You did not answer his question, instead you told him "There's no need to worry about locating the datum line"

Again is it safe for me to assume you do not know the answer or do you think he does not need to know?

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey ......

I have no idea what "other" forum are you talking about.

Our Digital Headspace Gauge doesn't require locating the exact datum line, because the shoulder angle is exactly the same on your fired case as it is in your chamber itself. After our gauge is zeroed on a fired case, it measures one of your resized cases, and what gets displayed is the actual chamber clearance that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber.

It's obvious that constant arguing is enjoyable to you. You must have too much idle time on your hands. I'm replying to contribute helpful information to fellow shooters by describing our NEW method of measuring chamber clearance (at the shoulder).

- Innovative

[fguffey]

Larry,

I've got a question, but first I want to say thank you. I use your collet resizing die and it's saved me hundreds of pieces of .300 Win Mag brass over the years I've had it. I shoot a Browning BAR .300 Win Mag, so my problem was magnified with the semi-auto. Thank you!

Now to my question. I see in the diagram above from Woods that the datum line is in the middle of the shoulder. Does your DHG measure off of this line for every caliber? My assumption is that it's measuring a relative headspace, off of the fired case, is that correct?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Chances are, when we meet intelligent life forms in outer space, they're going to be descended from predators."
- Michio Kaku


Innovative
Junior Member





USA
62 Posts
Posted - Dec 05 2009 : 14:14:32
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ten2six .....

There's no need to worry about locating the datum line, because the shoulder angle of a fireformed case is exactly the same angle as your chamber. Our Digital Headspace Gauge compares one of your fireformed cases to one of your resized cases, and displays the difference. That difference is your chamber clearance. You just need to know how much chamber clearance you have (at the shoulder), and our Digital Headspace Gauge tells you exactly that. I hope this helps.

- Innovative

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Ryder]

I understand better now. This is something I will start taking into account. Thanks.

[Innovative]

fguffey .....

The answer to your question is no. Here's why . . . . There's no reason to find an exact measured location (datum line) on the shoulder. With my method, it's meaningless because both shoulder angles are the same. Our Digital Headspace Gauge is zeroed (calibrated) on one of your fired cases before inserting your resized case. When your resized case gets measured, the difference of those cases is then displayed. That represents the exact chamber clearance at the shoulder.

In other words . . . . if you take your measurements right on the datum line you'll get the exact same result. Just take your reading somewhere near center on the shoulder. Why spend extra time locating the datum line?

- Innovative

[Steve Marshall]

Ye Gods! For those of you who want to spend money on a device that measures something akin to cartridge headspace ( for lack of a better term), you can go 2 basic ways. Buy Innovatives tool or get something like the Stony Point ogive checker. Then, if you want to check the envelope of your cartridge you get a cartridge case gage a la Wilson. If you want to really be thorough, also get a set of headspace gages. Or, you can get all 3 for about $180. (guess).

[Innovative]

Steve .....

For half that price our Digital Headspace Gauge can measure headspace AND measure bullet "jump" to the rifling. But there are always cheaper methods. Each to his own ....

- Innovative

[Steve Marshall]

Innovative..... For half that price... blah, blah, blah. I understand wanting to promote a product you feel to be superior to any other. But you'd get a little more sympathy were you to embrace the concept of using said tool with "cheaper methods". Your tool does not address;
banana cases
out of square heads
buggered extraction grooves
out of square necks
etc.
All of these and more could prevent a round from chambering properly. And some, if not addressed properly, due to the potentially erroneous reading your tool provides, could cause either short or long shoulder locations. Why not use a case gage AND your tool? If promoted this way, I'd certainly be more inclined.

[Innovative]

steve .....

You forgot to mention that it won't bake cookies ..... it won't do that either.

I've used the Digital Headspace Gauge for years, and I just thought I'd make it available to all shooters. For years I've had shooters send me their cases for problem identification, and I can always identify the problem using this gauge. This may not be the tool for you, but as of this month there are now over 100 more shooters using them.

- Innovative

[fguffey]

Innovative, You are welcome, I found the other forum for you, and thank you for the 'no' your rational for 'no' ends with "Why spend extra time locating the datum line? Means you do not know where it is or how to find it, anyone in a machine shop surrounded with equipment and tools and makes a comparator called a head space gage should be able to answer the question. If I designed, manufactured and sold a gage called 'head space gage' because no one can find the datum I would say I designed the gage because no one can find the datum, then I would repeat myself and again say the datum is nice to know and takes up a lot of space on the internet. for me I make up 'DATUMS' out of anything, 'DATUMS' do not hang me up, as to finding a datum? You can not make a head space gage without knowing where it is located, a head space gage can not be measured without the DATUM.



DATUM is the heart of the head space gage, when using a comparator on the shoulder of a case the shoulder is a CONE with varying diameters for the length of the neck, that is the reason I make up DATUMS, all that is required is I must use the same DATUMS when comparing the difference in length of one case to another., length is hot a factor, only the difference in length (standing that would be height) would be read.



Again, I want to carry one measurement from the chamber to the press back to the chamber, when I form a case to the chamber, it becomes the standard, a collector of Mausers in Northern Alabama surrounded with gun smith could not find a tool or smith that would check his rifles for head space, I made him a set of head space gages for the 8mm57 chamber from .000 (.005 short chambered) to .024 thousands over the length of a minimum length case, the problem? Some of his chambers were .318 (88 Commission), the rest were .323 (1905 and later) short story I made the gages in .318, one set of gages fit all of his 8mm57 Mausers, he called and said he was pleased with the results but was curious as to what to do with the rifle (88 Commission) that chambered the +.024 gage. he hung it on the wall.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.92x57mm_I

F. Guffey

[fguffey]

....for the length of the shoulder....

forgive,

F. Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey .....

Perhaps you are just hungup on the name of our gauge. It could have been more correctly called a Chamber Clearance For Your Handloads Gauge.
Instead of using a predetermined datum line, this NEW technique uses a designated datum line that is determined when you calbrate on a fireformed case. I don't plan to rename it, but does this help?

- Innovative

[fguffey]

Perhaps I did not think you knew the difference between a comparator and a head space gage. I found a tool that was not related to reloading, $2.00, 70 years old, someone with me at the gun show asked me why I needed another tool, he said he knew I had at least 3 that were similar, both metric and standard, I said DATUMS.



A collector, smith, resource person, machinist, participant on another forum involved in a thread on datum and head space called me, basically he ask "HOW", I ask him if he was standing in front of the mill, drill press or lathe, he said he had all three, does it make a difference? My reply was that it did not make a difference to me because it can be done on all three, but as for me I make them (datum) up. Jim Tarelton is sharp, it did not take long to explain, I finished, he said "I be Damn", I then told him to go to one of his tool boxes and remove a tool (I did not ask him if he had the tool, he is a machinist, I knew he had the tool), he then said "OK, now what?", I said "think about it" and again he said "I be Damn".



I should not have had to provoke you to speak, never in all the time I have participated on any forum that you have been on do I remember you acknowledging there were other participants, in all these years I have not agreed with you but said nothing, going back to your collet die for magnums, RCBS made dies before the Internet called BAR dies for auto loaders, I have three sets, 300 Win Mag, 30/06 and 270, the M1 Garand chamber is larger than the chamber for the M1917 Enfield or 03, a different reamer was used on the Garand. When Browning made the BAR, the clearance was made into the die. As, I believe it was, Bart B. said he would cut the top and bottom of a magnum die off and call it a a body die before he would pay the kind of money you were asking for the die.



NEW technology? again the tool was 70 years old, because of age and neglect it was not easy to read, I did not design the tool, I found another use for the tool because those kind of things do not lock me up.



Starts with 'hung up' and finishes with "Does this help?" For satisfying a curiosity, your tool is expensive, as has been stated a Wilson case gage can duplicate case comparison measurements, go, no-go, and with a straight edge and the 'companion gage' to the press, the feeler gage, height gage, depth gage and dial caliper, the Wilson case gage can measure and compare case length from the shoulder to the head of the case in thousands. Datum? New technology? The Wilson gage does not use a datum, cases inserted in the gage seat on in the shoulder, if someone can measure case protrusion they can measure the effect the chamber has on the length of the case after it is fired, and if the case was measured before firing the difference in the two measurements indicates the effect head space had on the fired case. With one exception, the Wilson is free standing, stand alone gage, the minimum length on the cage is = full length sized, commercial length, max, length of the gage is less than .005 or shorter than the length of the perfect go-gage length chamber.



Instructions on the use of the Wilson gage may not have included the instructions in the beginning, the instructions are available now but according to Innovative the Wilson case gage only gives ball park figures.



The Wilson measures from the shoulder back to the head of the case and from the shoulder of the case forward to the mouth of the case.

The Wilson case gage determines the effect sizing has on the case, the Wilson case gage determines if the case is not sized enough, or as I said, if head space is know first the measurment can be transfered from the chamber to the press, die and shell holder and back to the chamber, the Wilson case gage is relitive to the chamber, sized case and fired case.

F, Guffey

[Innovative]

fguffey ....

You must be a much faster typist than I am. Ha Ha I'd really like to talk to you sometime about several different reloading theories. Not to be arguementive, but it would be interesting.

I'd agree with you about the relevance of a datum line - if we were discussing the manufacture of reamers, rifle building or manufacturing production ammo . . . . . but trust me, it's not needed when reloading for a specific rifle.

I've read posts from Bart and I can tell he's an experienced reloader. In fact, my first prototype for a belted mag die was exactly what you described. After thorough testing, I found that it was plowing brass straight back against the belt. My collet design moves brass inward only. Since then, almost 3,000 shooters agree that my design works very well. That doesn't take anything away from 'ol Bart.

The Wilson case gauges are good tools. I have several of them. They measure cases within a + and - range of tolerance. However, they don't do what our Digital Headspace Gauge does. Our gauge gives the only measurement you need about chamber clearance (at the shoulder) that YOUR handloads have in YOUR particular chamber.


- Innovative