[pak29]

I recently learned that the standard of accuracy for a modern high-quality air pistol is that it will produce one-hole ten shot groups from a rest. :eek: Incredible! That's a pistol that shows you precisely where you placed the shot. They produce little recoil and are both safe and quiet enough to shoot in your basement, and are typically shot from 10 meters, i.e. a very basement-like 33 feet. Anyone set up their own range at home?

I love to shoot, and want to work on my technique. I've been reading some of the excellent material available at bullseyepistol.com (http://www.bullseyepistol.com), including the Army Marksmanship Unit's Pistol Training Guide. It's the best in-depth treatment of shooting fundamentals of stance, grip, breath, trigger control and other topics that I have ever read.

It's not always convenient to sneak away to the range, though. This seems like a perfect, affordable, quiet, convenient way to do it.

[MrBorland]

I like air pistols and rifles. You can likely find one to hone whatever form of shooting you're into, whether it be target or action shooting.

Until the time change, I was spending quality time with my IZH-46M, shooting Olympic 10m style. Yes, some air guns can be very accurate, and it was a great way to work on trigger/breath/sight picture control in between range visits.

http://i415.photobucket.com/albums/pp239/becke016/GunsTargets/MiscellaneousPicsfrom08198.jpg

[fastbolt]

Sounds like you're able to afford a better air pistol than I picked up for pest eradication.

I have to use my honed shooting skills in order to make accurate shots with the air pistol. :p

I've seen some of the match-grade air pistols used by a shooting club, though, and they're pretty amazing. Might as well be shooting a laser.

[9mmepiphany]

i'm drooling over the IZH-46M

i keep checking and places have them on "sale" but keep moving back the expected delivery date :(

an air pistol mandates that your trigger control and follow through be perfect as the pellet takes awhile to travel down the barrel. i think it is one of the best ways to learn correct trigger control...the other is visualization

[pak29]

MrBorland, that's the pistol I've been looking at online. The IZH-46M seems to be unique to the marketplace, offering near-match quality for less than $400. I like the self-contained nature of the air supply, too (lever-operated pump, rather than compressed air from external source).

I've heard it's a bit front-heavy. Have you been happy with it?

[MrBorland]

I'm happy with it now, but it's been a journey.

I bought it 2 years ago, and right out of the box, it wouldn't hold a charge. I got disgusted and let it sit for some months. Getting the itch again, I sent it back for repairs, which were done quickly (and free). Seems it came from the factory with bad seals.

As for the factory grips, a 2x4 is more ergonomic, but it seems they're made this way to give the shooter plenty of leeway to trim them down. A little work with a dremel, and they are now much better, and useable, but far from perfect.

Yes, the gun feels muzzle heavy, but your control of the muzzle gets better with practice.

How's it shoot? Well, that's part of the journey, too. It'll really expose your bad habits, both physical and mental, and your scores will likely reflect that. Keep practicing, and these habits and scores improve. That's been my experience,anyhow.

ok, 'nuff cons, how 'bout some pros:

1) Yes, for the money, it's a terrifically accurate piece. There's no doubt in my mind that one could shoot master-level scores (≥95%) with it eventually. With only a few months practice, I was getting pretty close. Beyond this, though, and you'd likely want to poney up for a world-class AP. But for what I use the 46M for, it's perfect.

If you go over to airgunarena.com, there's some bi-weekly and monthly on-line matches you can compete in, and this helps keep your interest up.

2) It's quiet. Very likely no problem shooting in your garage. The pellet hitting the target will likely make more noise.

3) As you mentioned, there's no need for external source of air, CO2 or greengas. Yes, you have to cock it for each shot, but you don't have to alter your shooting grip or stance to do so, so it's not a big deal.

4) Very light and adjustable trigger. I kept mine stock from the factory, as it feels fine. I don't know the pull weight, but it'd be measured in ounces, rather than pounds.

5) The 46M can be dry-fired. Not by charging it and pulling the trigger on an empty chamber, mind you (bad for any airgun and loud), but simply by cocking the trigger itself by lifting/closing the breech bolt.

6) Comes with 2 front sights and 2 rear sight blades. Both are easily changed, so you can find a front/rear combo that's best for you.

7) there's at least one aftermarket source of grips, but IIRC, they cost as much as the gun. 'Course, if the alternative is a $2k LP-10, new grips would be a deal.


If you'd like to know any more, don't hesitate to ask or even PM.

[pak29]

Sounds excellent! I'll keep looking around for one of these.

[kanook]

I would need a speargun cause my basement would be underwater. (south Florida)

I do use my pellet rifle to keep me going for hunting season (shooting palm rats on the move is pretty hard) but have yet to find a pellet pistol that fit my hand well.

[Jubjub]

In my opinion, you would be very hard pressed to find a better air pistol for this purpose than the Beeman P3.

http://www.amazon.com/Beeman-P3-air-pistol/dp/B000BWAZIE

It is a single stroke pneumatic, easy to cock, quiet, and while not quite match grade accurate, more than accurate enough to make it very clear who is responsible for where the holes appear. Mine shoots cheap bulk Crosman Premier pellets into well under half an inch at the ten yards or so that I have in the basement. The trigger is just excellent, light and crisp after a bit of first stage takeup.

What I like about it for general training is that the grip and sights are much like a service pistol, rather than a target pistol. The grip is modeled on the Walther P99, and the sights are thick and heavy.

There are a couple of things that I really don't like about the gun. There is an automatic safety, and it can't be reached from a shooting grip. It's a slide above the trigger on the left side. After a while, a habit develops of taking off the safety with the left hand after cocking, before assuming the shooting grip. Shooting lefty is easier, because you can just reach up and hit the safety with the trigger finger. The other thing is that there is a molded in "magazine release" button where it would appear on a centerfire pistol, which is very sharp and abrasive. I dremeled it down smooth on my pistol.

[SeanSw]

Even the knock-off Marksman 2004 (now disc. I believe) and Beeman p17 are fantastic pistols for the money. I put thousands of rounds through my Marksman 2004 and couldn't believe how well it shot for under $50. I took many rabbits and blackbirds with it.

I never cared much for the cocking method and auto-safety, but I lived with the former and removed the latter. The fact is it worked and the trigger was great.

[pak29]

That Beeman P3 does look a lot like the new Walthers. Anyone else got a favorite?

[Mike OTDP]

I shoot from my dining room into my living room - a measured 10 meters. But I spent the big money...a Steyr LP10

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

I like my Dazey 747

[Geno]

I used to. I had a C02 Daisy that I fired literally 10s of thousands of rounds over the course of 10 years. My daughter finally did it in one day. She put a tiny dent in the chamber end of the brass barrel. I think it also would need a set of replacement seals because the cartridges go empty over the course of about 60 minutes if left sitting (unfired). They are expensive enough to merit returning it for a repair. Time to look for a new one.

[StrawHat]

I use a Daisy Power Line 747. Single pump and great accuracy. With the right backstop, I was able to reuse many of the pellets so it was very economical to shoot.

The 747 comes/came with decent sights and trigger.

I also have a Crossman 1377 which has okay sights and a poor trigger and a Crossman 103 with okay sights and a poor trigger.

I got mine so I could practice sight picture and trigger control. For me it worked as well as dry firing my revovlers. And they did double duty keeping squirrels from my bird feeders.

[ArthurDent]

I'm trying a similar thing to help with my rifle shooting. I talk about it in the thread: How to improve MY accuracy? I've also tried the same thing with hand-held airguns, but with mixed results.

There is one critical factor: grip angle. All of these target-grade air pistols seem to have a very strange grip shape and grip angle. The triggers on the ones I've handled are massively different from the real thing, too.

I have a small variety of airsoft pistols to practice safe handling, etc. I've noticed that if I practice with the glock-shaped airsoft I get used to naturally aiming it at a target. Then when I switch to the 1911-shaped airsoft my natural point-of-aim is about 10 degrees low. I don't have a revolver-shaped airsoft, but that is a completely different game as well.

Most of these target-grade airguns seem to have an incredibly large angle on their grips. It seems to me that this must affect where you naturally point anything.

Also, be careful about muzzle velocity and pellet weight. The higher-velocity airguns will be too powerful to shoot safely indoors. I have bought a couple for my own in-house practice but they have been retired because they were destroying the metal backstop I had and because of the problems with grip and trigger.

I'm still looking for a good solution.

So... do I think it's a good idea to use pellet pistols to practice accuracy? Absolutely! However, just be aware that you are training to a very different platform than the real thing, and that there will be an additional learning curve to transfer your new skills to your "target" firearm. The closer your practice toy can be to the real thing, the better I would think that it would be. "Beware of a the man who owns just one gun..."

[9mmepiphany]

the angle on serious (as opposed to Olympic grade) air pistols are meant of some kind of competition training (usually referred to as "club" shooting) and have a grip angle which is most conducive to natural accuracy/pointing...this apparently differs from your choice i other handguns.

i think you'll find that the grip angle that comes closest to them is on the Glocks

[MrBorland]

IMO, differences in grip angle are a valid concern for practical shooting, where the shooter relies heavily on his/her natural point of aim (NPA). My NPA has been honed with a revolver. I'd have real trouble making the switch to a 1911, then, as I'd likely shoot the floor doing an El Prez.

I don't find the extreme grip angle of my IZH to be a problem, though, as I'm using it for slow deliberate target shooting. Besides, I'm simply using my IZH to work on the fundamentals. Among which, is perfect awareness of the front sight throughout the shot. Until I started using it, I hadn't realized how deceptively difficult it is to do really well, and how poorly I was doing it. I suspect most would discover the same thing.

BTW, the extreme grip angle theoretically helps target accuracy; by placing the wrist at an extreme angle, it removes a degree of freedom from a wrist's normal movement.

[Starter52]

I learned to shoot handgun with a Daisy CO2 pistol. Years later I used the same technique with a High Standard .22 target pistol. The grip angle was almost identical.

[MedWheeler]

Is the P3 Beeman a single-shot? Also, the Beeman P17; does it have a rifled barrel? Thanks..

[Mike J]

I have done this with a 50 dollar daisy CO2 pistol & yes it does help.
BTW-Arthur Dent-I just wanted to say I like your Screen Name on this forum. Nice Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy reference though it's been years since I read the books. I think I saw someone post using Ford Prefect not too long ago also.

[StrawHat]

I use the air gun to perfect my ability to hold the sights where I want them. The grip angle and such is immaterial to me. I guess I can adapt.

[ozarkgunner]

I've been shooting air guns and rifles since I can remember. i don't think I would be able to shoot as well with a "real" rifle or pistol if I hadn't. I think they are really cheap and practicle ways to learn to handle, target and shoot.
They are an excelent way to teach proper aiming and sighting techniques. Whether it be with open blade sights or scopes. I have the nearly the same sights on my Crossman Quest 1000x as my Marlin 336. And they are the same style blade sights that are on my 15yr plus Crossman BB gun. If it weren't for my BB and pellet guns, it would have been a lot more expensive for my to learn to shoot my 30-30 336, M77 243, and all my pistols.
I began teaching my son how to shoot a pellet gun a couple of years ago. He has gotten substantially better. Then with buying him his first 22 rifle, it paid off. The first time I took him out with it, he hit a 20oz water bottle, dead center, at 30 yards or so. First shot. Since then, he has gotten much better. He has surpased me with his Marlin 60. He hit a shot gun shell on top of the target post at the 20 yard range, first try. While i missed 5 times.

[DickM]

I shoot Bullseye competition in 3 different leagues, and use a Steyr LP50 in my basement for a lot of my training because it allows me to practice the sustained fire stages (minus the recoil, which is the only drawback) in addition to slow fire. It's a great training aid and has probably added 10 points to my league average. A quality air pistol is scary accurate, and doesn't leave you with any excuses when you make a bad shot.

[Jubjub]

Is the P3 Beeman a single-shot? Also, the Beeman P17; does it have a rifled barrel? Thanks..

Yes, the P3 is a single shot. It is what's known as a single stroke pneumatic. The "slide" is actually the cocking lever. The "hammer" is the latch that holds it closed. You pull back slightly on the hammer, and the slide pivots up on a hinge under the muzzle. When it's fully open, you load a pellet, and when you close the lever, you are compressing the air charge.

The P17 is the same design, but made in China, while the P3 is made in Germany. From the reviews that I've read, the P17 has some reliability problems, to say the least.

[Offfhand]

For several years I've been doing my indoor practicing with a CO2 powered upper for 1911 Colt. It was made in Germany by Blaser, but I haven't seen them advertised in years. It is well made and accurate and great for practicing for the .45 because it utilizes the 1911 frame, trigger, etc, and quick and simple to install. Does anyone know if they are still made? I can post a photo if anyone is interested.

[Dallas Jack]

I've been shooting a Gamo PT-80. It is not a match gun. Nor is the trigger great. It is a .177, 8 shot semi auto with a DA/SA trigger. I bought it for between range practice for my CCW guns and for that purpose it's an OK airgun. The price was a plus also (about $80)
Dallas Jack

[JohnKSa]

I shoot airpistols fairly frequently, but more for the fun of it than for the practice. I believe that it does help my firearm shooting, but I see that more as a pleasant side-effect than the goal.

I've messed around with the CO2 pistols a bit but I sold my CO2 pistol some years back. For the last couple of weeks I have been thinking about getting another one, however.

Lately I've been shooting my Beeman P1 most but I also enjoy my FWB 65 and my Crosman 1377 and have probably shot my 1377 more than the other two combined over the years.

A quickly thrown together rough comparison of the various airgun types.

CO2

Velocity is temperature dependent.
Velocity falls rapidly with rapid fire in repeaters due to the cooling effect of exhausting the CO2
Easy cocking or even no cocking required between shots.
Many different platforms available including a wide variety of sizes/weights/prices/features.
Moderate to Good accuracy not particularly technique dependent.
Moderate power.
Requires CO2 cartridges.
Pretty much the only game in town for moderate to low priced "semi-autos" (most of the CO2 guns billed as semi-autos are really revolvers with the mechanism concealed).


Spring Piston

Good to Excellent Accuracy but heavily technique dependent.
Moderate to Good power.
Reasonable selection of models but generally moderate to high prices.
Moderate to high cocking effort--generally high.
Large & Heavy--weight and size increase with power.
Velocity is not temperature dependent.
Single shot


Recoilless Spring Piston

Generally Excellent Accuracy, somewhat technique dependent.
Few available models and generally high prices.
Large and Heavy.
Low to Moderate Power
Single shot only.
Velocity is not temperature dependent.
Cocking effort moderate to high.


Multi-Pump

Moderate to excellent accuracy, not particularly technique dependent.
Cocking takes time and higher power means more and harder pumping.
Power determined by pumping.
Generally moderate prices.
Size tends toward the large but weight is usually moderate.
Velocity is not temperature dependent.


One-Pump Pneumatic

Generally excellent accuracy, not particularly technique dependent.
Low to Moderate Power.
Tend toward high prices.
Size tends toward the large but there are some fairly small and light models out there--smaller & lighter generally means lower power.
Velocity is not temperature dependent.


Pre-charged Pneumatic

Power generally high.
Accuracy generally excellent, not particularly technique dependent.
Price is high.
Generally large and heavy.
Requires pumps and/or tanks for charging.
Repeaters are available and cocking effort tends to be minimal.
Velocity is not temperature dependent and rapid fire has little to no effect on velocity in repeaters.