Saiga 5.56 or 7.62?


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Stormshotty
November 20, 2009, 03:06 PM
I'm thinking about getting a Saiga in either the 5.56 or 7.62. The problem is I already have a DPMS Panther 5.56 and my father owns a WASR-10. If this rifle will be the only one I have for quite some time, what caliber would you recommend it in?

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Avenger29
November 20, 2009, 03:10 PM
One thing that might influence your decision is that Magnoilia State Armory makes an AR magazine adapter for the 5.56 Siagas.

Stormshotty
November 20, 2009, 03:24 PM
Is it easier than the Saiga -> AK mag conversion?

Avenger29
November 20, 2009, 03:25 PM
Is it easier than the Saiga -> AK mag conversion?

It's not quite a drop in fit. Google them and read about it on their website.

Don't forget that for both rifles you have to replace some of the parts with US made parts to reach 922(r) compliance.

Stormshotty
November 20, 2009, 03:30 PM
Figured it out, yes, because it's no longer a sporting rifle. They also sell conversion kits.

nulfisin
November 20, 2009, 03:33 PM
If you already have a good 5.56, there's no reason to duplicate it. The main beauty of the AK is superior power (7.62) in a simple package.

My converted Saiga is a better gun than my WASR. There's no real difference in accuracy, but the fit, finish, and feel of the Saiga is better.

nalioth
November 20, 2009, 06:15 PM
One thing that might influence your decision is that Magnoilia State Armory makes an AR magazine adapter for the 5.56 Siagas. A user by the nick of "renegadebuck" makes adapters for the .223 Saiga, too.

I've never heard any reviews of MSA's adapters, but renegadebuck's got reviews all over for his.

GRIZ22
November 20, 2009, 06:20 PM
I'd say it depends on what else you have in your collection. I have a few rifles in 223 and only a Chinese SKS in 7.62x39 (which i'm getting reday to sell) so I bought my Saiga in 223. If you have other 7.62x39s get that.

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 20, 2009, 07:36 PM
I'd say the 7.62x39 is a much more versatile, everyday round for a semi auto. The main advantages of .223 over x39, such as increased ammo storage, controllability in full auto, and compliance with STANAG are not utilized by us civillians, and the round's accuracy is not utilized in the AK platform. I have a .223 and an x39 and wll be the first to tell you get the x39.

M1key
November 21, 2009, 01:32 AM
My Saiga is the most accurate x39 rifle I own, including a pair of Arsenal 47s. Maybe hunt mulies, mountain lion with x39 soft points.

However, I think 223 is a more useful caliber especially around where I live. Varmints 2 legged and 4, wolves, coyotes, foxes, javelinas in the hills...

I also own a pair of Saigas in 223. They both shoot very well with 62 Soft Point, 75gr Wolf HP bullets.

The .223 will be around a long time. If Russian x39 is banned from import, we will be SOL.

Avenger29
November 21, 2009, 01:37 AM
Also 223 will be around a long time. If Russian x39 is banned from import, we will be SOL

Let's put it this way...7.62x39 is made domestically (but will give you sticker shock). 5.45x39...well, not so good. It is not made domestically.

Then again, those of us that shoot large amounts of Wolf and whatever else imported 5.56 will also not be too happy, as that is a significant source of training ammunition.

I can very well see an import ban on 7.62x39, 5.45x39, and 5.56x45. It will be a dark day. Much of our ammunition comes from foreign countries, and it will be very easy to ban it (look what they did to Chinese ammunition and firearms...we can still get Chinese shotguns, and that's it)

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 21, 2009, 01:53 AM
The ban on chinese x39 basically stems from a stubborn old man deciding to make an x39 handgun despite warnings from his peers in the industry.

A ban on russian ammo would surely suck. But at the prices now, heck you could put aside $110 a month and have 6,000 rounds of x39 stashed in a year.

nalioth
November 21, 2009, 02:20 AM
The ban on chinese x39 basically stems from a stubborn old man deciding to make an x39 handgun despite warnings from his peers in the industry. Not really.

As I keep saying, the steel used in Chinese (and other commie milspec ammo) is soft steel and not armor piercing at all.

The Chinese ammo ban is nothing more than a "punish the Chinese" for some transgression or other AND/OR more legislation based on FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) compounded by ignorance.

THE DARK KNIGHT
November 21, 2009, 09:57 AM
As I keep saying, the steel used in Chinese (and other commie milspec ammo) is soft steel and not armor piercing at all.

I understand that.But I read that the brewing sentiment was finally acted on when that guy made the x39 pistol in early 90's. Now, as to why the current x39 pistols or AR pistols hasn't done that again, who knows.


On 2 February 1994, there was issued an ATF encyclical placing 35 importers of "7.62 X 39mm steel core ammunition" and all Federal Firearms Licensees on immediate notice that those rounds were now considered "armor piercing." Quoting ATF Director, John W. Magaw, as stating "…(t)hese bullets are designed, when used in handguns, to pose a life-threatening risk to all law enforcement officers," the notification stated:
Recent production of handguns that are designed to fire 7.62 X 39mm steel core ammunition has resulted in the reclassification of that ammunition as armor piercing (which) can only be sold to law enforcement or governmental agencies. Prior to introduction of these handguns in the marketplace, 7.62 X 39mm ammunition was not considered armor piercing, because it was only used in rifles -- primarily SKS/AK rifles.
With this preemptive move, ATF struck a formidable blow at owners of between 7 and 8 million SKS rifles believed to be in this country, as well as those with AKs and sundry other shoulder-fired ordnance in that chambering. With a prime supply of "cheap ammo" suddenly gone, the cost of their shooting game had just gone up. As it was with the majority of small arms ammunition in the post-Brady Law hording frenzy, 7.62 X 39mm was already in extremely short supply, and the cost of an 1,100 round case of even lead core, available from over-stocked distributors during the summer of 1993 at $90/case, was suddenly selling in the $149 to $209 range… when it could be found! Ironically, the importation price of the restricted steel core ammunition was actually three dollars per case less expensive than the lead fodder from Norinco via China Sports, the country's largest importer of 7.62 X 39mm.

"You're not going to see numbers like those (of 1993) again," one Northeastern distributor said at the time. "The Chinese are really putting it to us now, probably to make up for the loss of their other market" (for steel core product).

An extensive investigation behind ATF's action revealed that the balloon went up in December 1993 when The Shotgun News ran Olympic Arms' advertising to promote their model OA-93 ("a true AR-15 pistol") chambered in 7.62 X 39mm, the announcement of which sent at least two importers scrambling to "buy" the rights to any such handgun to protect their future ammo market. Only the Washington-based gun-maker seemed not to have understood the far-reaching implications of their controversial product or anticipated any negative reaction.

After The Shotgun News advertisement, Robert C. Schuetz, President of Olympic Arms, was warned by both J.D. Jones and Century International Arms (importer of large quantities of the cheap, steel core 7.62 X 39mm ammo) that his promotion of a 7.62 X 39mm "pistol" would probably bring the ATF down on the Chinese steel-core rounds. Schuetz, however, went forward with his OA-93.
Public Law 99-408 of 1986, the infamous "cop killer bullet" legislation, now memorialized as 921(a)(17)(b), reads
"…a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely … of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper or depleted uranium."
More simply, if there is no handgun chambered for a cartridge, it cannot fall within the definition of 921(a)(17)(b) because it is not a "projectile which may be used in a handgun."
"Nobody told me that this was a situation, and by the time I found out, it was too late." "I'm not in the ammunition business," Olympic Arms' Schuetz told the author in one of two interviews at that time. "I wasn't aware that there was a problem. Nobody told me that this was a situation, and by the time I found out, it was too late. I'm 65 years old, I go to church every Sunday, and I feel good about myself. If people are so ignorant as to blame me for what's happened, that's asinine and there's nothing I can do about it. Now when people send me letters on this I just ignore it. What do you want me to do?"

As stated, however, two different concerns had contacted Olympic Arms about the potential problem 1 months before ATF issued its infamous memo.

Additionally, the author had discussed the matter with Schuetz in a face-to-face at SHOT Show '94.

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