Which of these can lay down the most firepower


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Golden_006
November 21, 2009, 10:39 AM
choose the rifle that would lay down the most firepower . . .

A. An SKS pinned to 5 with stripper clips
B. A Garand pinned to 5 with 5 round hunting stripper clips (by the way I've heard garand come in 5 is this true?)
C. a Ruger mini with the 5 round factory mag and you can have several
D. A Browning BAR since with only 5 it doesn't matter much and I'd just as soon have the accuracy
E. Something like a Marlin lever/hunting gun since with 5 rounds it doesn't matter much and I'd take the accuracy instead
F. None of the above/Other/ You're getting smoked with only 5 rounds given the above criteria so it doesn't matter much

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Broken11b
November 21, 2009, 10:50 AM
First, slow hits trumps fast misses... every time.
Second, if you are talking about suppressing fire, it only works ifyou have at least a fire team, a squad would be preferable.
One man armed with a five shot rifle cannot... I say again, cannot, lay down enough fire to be effective in the supressive role. All he can do is be accurate, your firepower ideas are a mute point.

And last, dont watch tv and think thats how combat works. Thats TV, talk to a real soldier and ask him what he thinks of that.

longdayjake
November 21, 2009, 10:58 AM
If you have several 5 round clips, then the garand is what I would choose. I have yet to find any gun that reloads faster than a garand.

Broken11b
November 21, 2009, 11:06 AM
Garands reload fast, but that doesnt change the fact that more time will be spent reloading than firing.
Learn how to be accurate quickly, it will serve you better than learning how to waste ammo loudly.

Golden_006
November 21, 2009, 11:12 AM
It looks like they make stripper clip in 5 for the garand http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/MAG244-1.html

I assumed that meant mags come in 5 for hunting but it could be for an extended mag and you load 5 at a time for the garand sort of like with the extended mag of a mauser?


Well in that case I sould get the mini and a scope. Seems like the only cost effective / high resale value of the lot to justify a scope. Plus a would think detacchables are pretty fast . . .

Broken11b
November 21, 2009, 11:18 AM
well, unless somthing changed with the M1 and nobody told me, its not a stripper clip, the whole clip is inserted en-mass into the rifle, there is no extended mag for the M1... unless your refering to the M-14

p.s. it is a shame that it you are limited in your selection and permission is required for you to even possess a rifle.

bang_bang
November 21, 2009, 11:44 AM
5 rounds = NO FUN!!

hammerklavier
November 21, 2009, 12:26 PM
The lever action! If you are limited to five rounds, then you will need the ability to reload at any time, instead of when your clip/mag runs dry.

rcmodel
November 21, 2009, 12:32 PM
The lever-action was the original assault rifle.

A good lever-gun man can stuff shells in the tube occasionally while keeping up steady aimed fire and never run dry.

rc

Z-Michigan
November 21, 2009, 02:33 PM
What is the point of this, really?

lay down the most firepower

The lightest weapon that you could reasonably apply those words to is an RPK. Apart from that it's mostly belt-feed LMGs and GPMGs.

C-grunt
November 21, 2009, 02:43 PM
I gotta agree that aimed fire beats spray and pray any day of the week. Remember that in Vietnam a lot of troops were taught to shoot full auto. Thats not the case anymore. No one is trained on the burst or auto selectors of their rifle anymore. If my Drill Sergeant found your rifle on burst it was a bad day.

Hell even machine gun training is short bursts.

Of the rifles you listed I would go with either the Garand or the lever action for the reasons others have already stated.

esquare
November 21, 2009, 03:15 PM
Okay, I must have missed the 5 round thing - what's up with that?

Second, AIM, AIM, AIM. My gosh, you've been watching too much TV!

Third, check you stats on the use of full auto and spray and pray.

Fourth, high cap mags were banned for no good reason. They weren't heavily used in crime, and as it turns out, swapping 10 round mags doesn't really take very much time. :-)

Care to elaborate on WHY you want to 'lay down the most firepower?'

Golden_006
November 21, 2009, 05:54 PM
I want the most evil firearm I can possess to prove bloombergs bs laws are useless. Plus who doesn't wAnt the option of laying down a lot of fire if the situation arose?

bang_bang
November 21, 2009, 05:56 PM
you've been watching too much TV!

You want something fun and evil...move out of NY. Otherwise, face the consequences and deal with the laws associated with living in NY.

Nick Nasty
November 21, 2009, 05:59 PM
Care to elaborate on WHY you want to 'lay down the most firepower?

It's useful for many things. Standard US Army skill level 1 and 2 training emphasizes fire teams using suppressive fire for advancement or flanking. Fully automatic weapons are necessary on moving platforms and useful against moving targets. It also has a unique and useful psychological effect on the enemy as.

There is more than one way to fight the enemy, and "aim aim aim" isn't a fits-all solution for every situation.

That said, I don't understand the premise of this thread (a silly selection of rifles laying down suppressive fire with five rounds?).

Broken11b
November 21, 2009, 06:08 PM
Well, thats the point isn't it! A team can use supressing fire... just one man needs to aim. Even a team needs to aim, just shooting fulll auto is a waste. supression is acheived through an accurate and high volume of fire, not just spraying. Aiming is a solution.
And it is almost comical to assume that one can get that much firepower with a five round capacity.
Try getting a semi auto shotgun, might fit better with your idea, minus the high volume of fire.

esquare
November 21, 2009, 06:14 PM
I want the most evil firearm I can possess to prove bloombergs bs laws are useless. Plus who doesn't wAnt the option of laying down a lot of fire if the situation arose?

Ha - well, this has turned into a silly thread. Maybe you should get a paintball gun with a 300 round hopper. It will probably be more useful to you anyway.

Shadow Man
November 21, 2009, 06:37 PM
I had a response all typed up, listing most of the ways in which the OP's logic was flawed, but my computer inneptitude caught up with me and I accidentally hit 'cut' not 'copy.' So now you will have to do without all of those wonderful examples, and just heed this: You couldn't be farther from the truth...less TV, more reality...please.

tju1973
November 21, 2009, 06:54 PM
fire all you want, but if you don't hit the target, then what is the point?

Aimed shots. Adjust your sights.

There is a reason a bunch of farmers beat the British Empire after all...

content
November 21, 2009, 07:22 PM
Hello friends and neighbors // E: Lever Action

jbkebert
November 21, 2009, 07:50 PM
Spray and pray is a bad idea on prom night, and a horrible idea in combat. You better think of another way of covering yourself. If your popping up like a gopher spraying a few rounds and then ducking. Your opposition will take you out pretty quickly. With 5 rounds you have no cover fire to speak of. You had better be accurate. Of your choices I would go for the garand.

Patriotme
November 21, 2009, 08:09 PM
Is this a California thing? Why 5 rnds? Garands come with 8 rnd clips. SKS's use 10 rnd stripper clips and there are 30 rnd mags for the Mini.
If this is a a California law then you have my condolences.
Instead of worrying about putting out suppressing fire from a weapon that cannot do so you should worry more about fighting YOUR fight. Fight with your strengths instead of worrying about spray and pray from a weapon that doesn't have the capacity to do so.

PhysicsGuy
November 21, 2009, 08:14 PM
I want my minute of life back from reading this thread

mljdeckard
November 21, 2009, 09:32 PM
The rate of fire, the muzzle energy, the ease of reloading, the rate of malfunction, and the diameter of the projector are entirely irrelevant if you DON'T HIT THE TARGET.

GRIZ22
November 21, 2009, 09:41 PM
Spray and pray is a bad idea on prom night, and a horrible idea in combat.

How true! If suppressive fire doesn't hit the enemy that sticks their head up it ain't surpressing anything.

The original question should be listed with "What if Sparatcus had a Piper Cub".

mljdeckard
November 21, 2009, 09:44 PM
If all you need a rifle for is to suppress fire, why not just use sound effects? When I use deadly force, I'm not trying to keep someone's head down, I'm trying to stop their movement.

Broken11b
November 21, 2009, 10:01 PM
Well, I'm seeing at least 2 other vets posting on this thread about how aiming beats supressing fire...

but hey, what do soldiers know about battle

ny32182
November 21, 2009, 10:03 PM
Boy this thread is all ate up with stupid. :scrutiny:

Z-Michigan
November 21, 2009, 10:30 PM
The original question should be listed with "What if Sparatcus had a Piper Cub".

What if Odysseus had a good lawyer?

What if Menelaus had tactical nukes?

What if zombie bear cavalry attacks? Can I still rack my Glock one-handed? Will I be ranked as a "Mall Shogun"?

Shadow Man
November 21, 2009, 10:43 PM
There's a reason urban combat is dominated by Scout/Sniper teams. Find some good first-hand accounts of the battle of Al Fallujah, I think that shows quite clearly how precision rifle fire beats volume fire in any scenario. There's a reason Marines qualify with their M16's at 500yds. There is also a reason TV is not a good sounding board for reality...Santa Clause isn't real, and TV isn't either, sorry bud.

Let me put it this way: in a combat situation, if you are not putting rounds on target, you are combat ineffective. There is a time for covering and suppressing fire, yes, but when you get right down to it, the only rounds that matter are the ones that drop the tango.

HorseSoldier
November 21, 2009, 11:55 PM
There is a time for covering and suppressing fire, yes, but when you get right down to it, the only rounds that matter are the ones that drop the tango.

The ones that distract the bad guy while I get across the street or whatever are pretty important to my thinking as well . . .

Shadow Man
November 22, 2009, 12:03 AM
The ones that distract the bad guy while I get across the street or whatever are pretty important to my thinking as well . . .

Those would be the ones that were aimed at him, but missed, because I am no target shooter when in situations like that. However I'm still aiming at killing him (pun intended) I just haven't quite gotten there yet.

BushyGuy
November 22, 2009, 12:10 AM
i think the mini-14 is faster to reload cuz it never jams while trying to reload it.

Sunray
November 22, 2009, 12:29 AM
You in Canada? M1 Rifles are exempt, by name, from our silly mag capacity rules. They don't use stripper clips either. Lee-Enfields, also exempt by name, can use mag chargers.
There are 5 round M1 clips made for places that insist upon 5 rounds only for hunting though. They're not exactly inexpensive at $5.80US each from Gunparts.
"...grunts who just put their AK on rock and roll and shoot in the general direction of the enemy..." Most shots will miss. Nothing beats aimed rifle fire except a tank's main gun. The PBR of a tank's main gun is 1,000 yards.
"...suppressive fire..." Doesn't have to hit anything. It's to keep the BG's from shooting while the PBI types move to where their aimed rifle fire will be more effective.
"...drop the tango..." A 'tango' is a tank in NATO radio parlance.
"...ate up with stupid..." Ate up with TV/movie daftness, for sure. Kind of humourous though.

Wes Janson
November 22, 2009, 12:40 AM
The ones that distract the bad guy while I get across the street or whatever are pretty important to my thinking as well . . .

Damnit HorseSoldier, stop confusing people with your rational thinking!

On a mechanical basis, the M1 Garand is statistically "better" in the role considered by the OP's question. Reload speed is going to be the primary criteria differentiating each rifle, and of the options available an en-bloc clip is by far the fastest method.

scythefwd
November 22, 2009, 01:04 AM
As I was taught in basic, the US maintains it superiority on the battle field by having superior fire power. We attain superior fire power with sustained, rapid, accurate fire. We train to acquire a 300m target and drop it in less than 8 seconds.

Suppressive fire is still trying to put a person down. The only time fire isn't aimed (coming from a former SAW gunner, which is a belt fed fully auto only weapon) is grazing fire. Grazing fire is approximately 24-30 inches off the ground and continuous. It's purpose is to stop a charge, not to keep heads down. We were even trained to use aimed fire when doing bounding over watch when responding to ambushes (basic training, we were told to drive through an ambush while firing at aggressors when I went to Iraq <we were signal, not the real fighters>).

C-grunt
November 22, 2009, 04:06 AM
Suppressive fire is still aimed fire. Its no good if I just start layin lead down at the pretty clouds up above me. It suppresses the enemy by making him think he will die if he moves, and hopefully a few rounds will hit him in the process.

I was a SAW gunner in '03 and a humvee gunner/DMR in 05, I have layed down some suppression fire a time or two before.

In one battle in 05 my platoon got pinned down in a hostile town by enemy fire from an unknown location. My team leader and I were outside the town on a small hill in an overwatch position. He had a M4/203 and I had my M16 DMR. We fixed the location of the insurgents and opened fire with aimed accurate fire at a range of, map measured, 400ish meters. They never knew where we were but the aimed fire, approximately 20 rounds between the two of us, caused them to break contact. No one in our platoon was hurt.

The insurgent group didnt break contact because we laid down the most "firepower" or sprayed the most rounds their way. They took off because they were taking casualties and rounds on their position.

scythefwd
November 22, 2009, 05:51 AM
OP - notice how almost everyone here (especially the ex/former military) mention aimed fire or accurate fire or a combination of them. The US has one of the best trained fighting forces on the planet, and you can see where they emphasize their training.

C - I am having trouble determining whether you are attempting to disagree with me or not on the suppressive fire so let me be clear..... I agree with you on this matter. You said it better than I did, but that is what I was trying to say.

Golden_006
November 22, 2009, 09:58 AM
Ok I stand corrected on the aim fire/wall of lead approach to combat.

So which of the rifles should i get? Sounds like I shouldget garand.

Why would anyone get the mini when garand is the same money. I'm in bloombergs commie utopia. I don't think I can have a garand anyway despite cheaper than dirt sells 5 buck - 5 round clips for it. That's cheap in my view considering mags are a lot more. I think I'll trade my sks in for the mini when I get my permit/move there. (got a great deal on an apt only 20 min from job ) An sks pinned to 5 doesn't sound too appealing. I guess I'll have to find time to practice with whatever rifle sounds like all are good rifles if you can aim good and reload quick.

scythefwd
November 22, 2009, 10:35 AM
The sks doesn't take but a split second to load. Neither does the Garand. Any gun with a box mag will be very easy to reload quickly as well... it just takes practice. The BAR is a nice weapon, and so is a lever action. Personally, I prefer a box magazine (and I own an SKS and a Garand as well as a rifle that takes box mags) over the enbloc of the Garand and the internal mag of the SKS.

The sks can be topped off, and so can the garand (it just takes 2.5 hands to do). The garand, if you eject the clip early, will toss your rounds all over the place. Same with the sks when unloading. Lever actions require you to put every round through the chamber before you unload. Box magazines allow you to keep your rounds together, in a usable state, while removing them quickly without running them through the chamber.

The mini I could go get right now... a Garand I would have to wait for CMP to ship one to me. There are requirements to be able to buy one from the CMP and the Garand costs 2-300 more locally than a mini. Ammo considerations are more for a garand than a mini. The mini uses a more readily available ammo (either the 14 or the 30). The garand weighs more, and is harder to put a scope on (which many people want on their rifles for some odd reason). The mini, with a bit of work like bedding the action and putting a re-enforcement for the barrel can shoot almost as well as a garand in good condition. Surplus ammo is getting harder to come by though and unless you reload, garand safe ammo is EXPENSIVE. That enough reason for getting a mini vs a garand?

scythefwd
November 22, 2009, 10:54 AM
I had a response all typed up, listing most of the ways in which the OP's logic was flawed, but my computer inneptitude caught up with me and I accidentally hit 'cut' not 'copy.' So now you will have to do without all of those wonderful examples, and just heed this: You couldn't be farther from the truth...less TV, more reality...please.

Shadow - when you hit cut, you can still paste the text you selected. Cut copies the data into the clipboard and then deletes it off the screen. Copy just copies the data to the clipboard. Just to save you a little bit of frustration later:)

Shadow Man
November 22, 2009, 11:33 AM
Oh...well. Thank you! I did not know that. Much appreciated sir.

C-grunt
November 23, 2009, 03:22 AM
scythefwd... I was not trying to disagree with you at all. Matter of fact I agree with you 100 percent from that post.

Us SAW gunners gotta stick together!! LOL

scythefwd
November 23, 2009, 05:21 AM
Ok I stand corrected on the aim fire/wall of lead approach to combat.

Wall of lead has a very good use in combat....as long as it is a well aimed wall of lead. I know a guy that could burn through 30 rounds full auto on a saw and keep it in a man sized silhouette. I was never that good. I could hit 96/105 at the range though on popups out to 400y.

John Parker
November 23, 2009, 07:02 AM
i think the mini-14 is faster to reload cuz it never jams while trying to reload it.

Oh totally. Jamming while reloading...big problem with the other rifles mentioned.

Art Eatman
November 23, 2009, 11:19 AM
I figure that the minimum time to return to aim is fastest with the .223, so I'd pick the Mini. Less recoil and muzzle jump.

Justin
November 23, 2009, 11:53 AM
The entire premise of this thread is utterly asinine.

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