[esheato]

I decided to clean my Savage .308 tonight. It's usually my hunting rifle, but I've been trying to work up a load lately, and it's been getting a lot more rounds through it as I'm experimenting with some Varget powder. It was cleaned fairly recently, within the last month, with some powder solvent only.

I decided to try some Sweets 7.62 copper solvent that I've had laying around and I was amazed by the amount of copper that came out of it.

Take a look for yourself.

Two thumbs up for Sweets!

esheato...

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1804614/37637151.jpg

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL60/919855/1804614/37637128.jpg

[jwmoore]

I'm amazed by the amount of gunk caught in the cigarette filter in your second picture. :barf: ;)

~W

[greyhound]

Funny, I was just thinking of trying Sweet's 7.62 and seeing if there's some at the Wal Mart today.

or maybe NOT today, I don't know if its like this where you all live, but going to Sam's Club/Wal Mart on a Saturday is kinda like getting a tooth drilled without novocaine!:D

[esheato]

I swear I can't have a decent post on this forum. Everytime I say something, somebody ends up busting my ba....nevermind..:p

Either way, I still think Sweets is some good stuff.

esheato...

[MagKnightX]

So is sweets just very, very blue, or does it react with the copper to form copper sulfate, or what?

[Mike Irwin]

There's tons of ammonia in Sweet's, which is one reason I don't like to use it that much.

Ammonia, H3N, dissolves the gilding metal (a combination of Copper and Zinc, not pure pure copper).

Copper Sulphate is CuSO4, so I don't see how you could get that from using ammonia.

I think many forms of copper will take that blue cast.

It's been a long time since I took chemistry, but I THINK that what you would be more likely to get in a reaction between copper and ammonia is copper nitrate CU(NO3)2 and some zinc chloride...

[wendy]

Congratulations - welcome to the world of the self-made copper mine.

Hoppes DOES NOT clean copper out, and it'll build up, and eventually both ruin accuracy, and cause the barrel itself to deteriorate.

Get some Butch's (or that Montana crap, but you can't use it indoors - whew!), and every 20-30 rounds, brush it GOOD. It's the brush and the solvent that'll get the stuff out. Otherwise, you end up layering it on, with carbon between 'em, and it's like a place for moisture to be trapped, which will then pit the barrel.

Bogie

[Monkeyleg]

Well, seeing as how other posters on this thread aren't exactly taking it seriously...

"Can we say COPPER?"

Only if you're James Cagney.

[Majic]

Actually that isn't all that bad. I've seen barrels that has had twice as many patches as that and then the Outers Foul Out machine still took several hours to completely clean.

[esheato]

The Sweets is a clear liquid, but the patches and brushes all come out covered in the blue 'paste' as you clean the bore. Indeed, it has a high concentration of ammonia. Makes you want to pass out when you open the bottle.

Mike Irwins post completely lost me, but I guess I'll agree because I don't know any better. :D

Monkeyleg, you lost me too....I don't think I'm old enough to understand that one.

Anyway, I do know this: it's clear when you put it in the bore and blue when it comes out...there's a reaction going on between the copper fouling and the ammonia, hence the blue material...I just scrubbed until the patches came out clean and then put a oiled patch down it to clean it out. The bore looks spotless though. I'm not planning on using it all the time, just occasionally to really give it a good cleaning. Overally, I'm happy with the stuff.

esheato...

[XLMiguel]

Mr. Irwin's memory for HS chemistry is about as good as mine, 'cause copper nitrate is what came immediately to my mind too, or maybe it was just the fumes talking:D

Not sure where the chlorine for the ZnCl camefrom, but I don't have the ingredients for Sweets available, at the moment.

[FireInTheHole]

If I remember correctly, the brilliant blue from sweets is not necessarily from CuSO4(the (SO4)2- is not what gives the blue shade... it's the Cu2+), the formation complex ion Cu(NH_3_)_4_^2+^ is what is really occuring. (sorry about the format, it is hard express chem on the internet)

BTW, 5% NH3 isnt alot, but it might well be harmful to a rifle's barrel if you were to use a higher concentration. (transition metals like copper and iron [steel=iron] have a tendancy to form complex ions)

Anybody know what else is in Sweets 7.62? I had been toying with taking it apart as a project next semester...

[Andrew Wyatt]

muw much is butch's bore shine? is it a copper remover? does it have ammonia in it?

[Mike Irwin]

"Not sure where the chlorine for the ZnCl camefrom..."

Dammit, neither am I...

I told you it had been a long time since chemistry! :o

[Ironbarr]

What happens when you use Butch's (Oy, da stink..), dry patch it but no oil? Stainless steel and lined bbls. Is there a residue that not using a oiled patch will harm a barrel?

New Butch-erers need to know.

-Andy

[FireInTheHole]

Not sure about this Butch stuff, but the controversy with ammonia based solvents revolve around micro-fractures in the barrel formed by the intense heat+pressure of firing.... this is apparently an issue with older military surplus type weapons with a history of full-auto firing.... So leaving the solvent in the barrel without swabbing it out wet patch might be a bad idea.... that is if it has ammonia in it. No telling how much might be left in the fractures even after a wet patch.:confused:

*shrugs*

I dont know much about metallurgy (yet) so dont quote me on this.

[Stevie-Ray]

Hoppes DOES NOT clean copper out, and it'll build up, and eventually both ruin accuracy, and cause the barrel itself to deteriorate. Hoppes Copper Solvent DOES remove copper, and does the job better than anything I've found. It's all I use after a range session with my SAR-48 using surplus ammunition. Thousands of rounds have gone through this barrel, and it still shoots sub MOA.

[P95Carry]

Like Mike, my chem is way rusty ..... but just pondering ..

The NH3 radical is positive .. so it might be carried as the hydroxyl .. (OH-) ... and this with other possible components of the copper scrubber could I think lead to a ''Cuprous ammonium'' complex salt ... tho not sure what negative ion to attach .. Nitrate? possibly ... ''Chloride''? .. seems unlikely ... ''Sulfate''? .... again seems unlikely ...... but many salts of Cu are blue in bias.

Even if the ammonia is potentially damaging . seems to me that after use of same . it is a wise move to patch thru with something like de-ionized water a time or two .... and thru infinite dilution remove residues ... then dry the bore and go to the oil mop stage.

Cu build-up is indeed potentially insidious ..... no way that guilded bullets can force there way down a rifle's tube without leaving some residue ... no way. So - cleaning is well necessary after time.... interval of same tho will be where most disagreement may occur.

[Cal4D4]

As long as we're playing with chemistry and have some players aboard, what conditions need be met for hydrogen embrittlement of the iron?

[P95Carry]

what conditions need be met for hydrogen embrittlement of the iron? Oh no ........ :eek: gaseous reduction ...... thru H .... too late in the day .. and cerebral corrosion too excessive!!:p

[Mike Irwin]

Now I think everyone knows why I use JB Bore Paste...

No complex chemisty!

[kernal_panic]

i use shooter's choice copper remover it does the same thing as sweets. i might try sweets just to see if it can clean the bore the faster. i use fp-10 as my bore cleaner to get the carbon out. it seems to work really well.

[Black Snowman]

I've been cleaning some very nasty copper fouling from my .340 Weatherby and I've got the lands clean with some bore cleaner which seems to be lapping compound. It's abrasive so I don't want to keep using it until I get to the bottom of the grooves for fear of damaging the lands.

I think I'll pick up whatever copper solvent I can find and go from there. I take it all the brands mentioned so far (Hoppe's, Sweets, etc. . . ) their solvents are non-abrasive? I image the bore paste is abrasive.

[MagKnightX]

Hmmm... Isn't Windex an ammonia-copper compound? Maybe Sweet's takes the copper out and cleans your windows afterwards! :p

[Malone LaVeigh]

I worry about using a brush with any solvent that reacts with copper. Most brushes are copper or brass, and I would think you would be risking leaving more copper in the barrel than you get out. Anyway, it wouldn't be very good for the brush.

[Black Snowman]

For removing copper with a brush I'm a big fan of Hoppe's stainless steel Tornado brushes. The coiled soft stainless is practicly harmless to the bore but quite effective at scraping stuff loose. It also is good for adding tension to a patch as the patches don't stick since there are no sharp ends.

I have them and Bore Snakes for all my rifle calibers and most of my pistols.

[Moparmike]

:p

Umm, how often should this be done again? Say in a pistol...

[ocabj]

I also have a Savage 10FP + Accutrigger in 308.

I usually clean by:

1. Run 2-3 patches saturated with Shooter's Choice solvent through the bore. I wait 1-2 min between each patch.

2. Soak a bronze brush with Shooter's Choice solvent and run it through the bore several times.

3. Run patches saturated with Shooter's Choice solvent until no black fouling shows up on the patches. Eventually, when no fouling is seen on the patches, patches start turning blue because the Shooter's Choice is dissolving the first layer of copper.

4. Run 3-4 dry patches to dry the bore.

5. Use .45ACP bronze brush and bore mop to clean the chamber and bolt lug recess.

6. Run 2-3 patches saturated with Butch's Bore Shine through the bore. I wait 1-2 min between each patch.

7. Wait 10 min for Butch's Bore Shine to soak in.

8. Run patches saturated with Butch's Bore Shine until no hint of blue appears.

9. Run 3-4 dry patches to dry the bore.

10. Run 2 patches with Butch's Gun Oil through the bore.

11. Run 1 dry patch through the bore to wipe out excess oil to maintain a small thin coating.

12. Use clean bore mop to dry chamber and bolt lug recess.

When I'm at the range and am cleaning between 10-20 round sessions, I go through steps 1-5. After a range session, I go through all the above procedure. Sometimes I use a nylon brush to apply Butch's Bore Shine if copper is persistent.

[brownie0486]

Sniper training using 308 heavy barrels at HK in Virginia, we cleaned the barrels every 3-5 rounds.

Procedure:

Run Hoppe bore cleaner through with wet patches twice.
Run clean patches through until dry
Run copper cleaner through with wet patches until they come out clean, no blue/green on them.
Run wet patch of cleaner through bore again several times to remove copper cleaner left in bore.
Run a brush through with cleaner several times
One patch with a light coat of oil if it is to be put away, otherwise leave it dry and fire again, repeating the procedure above.

The green/blue you see on the patch is a chemical reaction of the ammonia reacting with the copper. No colored patches? Bore has no copper left in it.

You do not want to leave the copper cleaner in the bore. The hoppes bore cleaner will neutralize any copper cleaner that may be left in the bore.

Oh ya, patches go one way only in the bore, from breech to muzzle, patch taken off and the rod returned to repeat.

Brownie

[FireInTheHole]

As long as we're playing with chemistry and have some players aboard, what conditions need be met for hydrogen embrittlement of the iron?

Corrosion due to H2O, prescence of dissolved H (g) and an alloying agent like carbon?

Metals under a lot of stress (think pressure) and heat will form more favorable dislocations by which the adsorbtion of H will increase. At least this is what I have been able to skim from a few MS journals Ive read about the topic.

[Cal4D4]

Slightly foggy memory on my part, but isn't pH a major factor?

[P95Carry]

pH is a factor ...... but then depends what the particular substance being exposed. Assuming here it is effect only on steels that is of prime interest.

If a low pH and thus an acid ... chlorine ions can lead to rapid corrosion .. in a weak solution it is hydrochlorous acid. Nitrates also .. the negative NO3, again in solution .. gives a mild nitrous acid. But even the weaker organics like acetic and malic still have some effect.

Bases are on the whole i think less of a prob on steels .. tho the ammonium radical as discussed does have its problems. Caustic soda and potash do not affect steel too quickly IIRC ... (different for Al!!).

Bottom line would seem to be that anything around the pH 7 area.... neutral .... is gonna be the safer bet ... tho there is need also to remember in many cleaning agents ... the presence of non-polarized compounds also ... usually cyclics.