[Walt Sherrill]

This is an attempt to put the myths to bed...

CRITERIA REVISED!! I originally asked folks to respond only if they had shot 500+ rounds. As the first few comments below have pointed out, that wasn't the brightest thing to do -- as it doesn't take 500 rounds to have a bad experience. (It only took three boxes of AMERICAN AMMO in .45 for me to swear off the stuff, for example.) Thanks for the feedback.

Please respond to this survey ONLY if you have had enough personal experience with Wolf handgun ammo to decide whether using it is something you will continue to do.

Please DO NOT RESPOND if you've witnessed problems, have heard of problem, or have used the ammo (successfully or unsuccessfully) in long guns.

This is about PERSONAL EXPERIENCE in using this ammo in your own handguns only.

(I never considered this kind of poll scientific, by the way: 1) it isn't replicable, 2) there aren't any controls, and 3) folks can LIE!!!)

[WonderNine]

Obviously if you've shot 500 rounds of the stuff you most likely like it. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't that tend to take the scientific method out of your poll? :rolleyes:

[Wildalaska]

Or how about the guys who would never shoot that stuff becasue they spent an hour gettign a stuck Wolf case out of a gun :)

WildgallupAlaska

[LFW]

I bought 500 rounds of .45ACP and 500 rounds of 9mm when the stuff first came on the market. Had extraction problems in several SIGs and an HK compact, problems with both 9mm and .45ACP. The .45ACP also would not extract from a S&W M625 revolver I had, nor would the 9mm extract from a M940 revolver. The 9mm worked well in my Hi-Power, however. Took me a long time to finally shoot up this ammo. Won't buy any more.--Leigh

[WhoKnowsWho]

Putting a 500 round requirement was pointless, most calibers, I will never get that high because it took only a few boxes to decide not to use it.

SIG 230, 2 boxes of .380, average of 2 jams per magazine, including failures to feed and eject. No jams with other ammo.

USP 40 Compact, 2 magazines, 1st mag one failure to eject. 2nd Mag 2nd round, case exploded and jammed in the chamber, gunsmith had to hammer it out.

Makarov, 9x18, about 400 rounds, no problems.

[BHPshooter]

I've shot 100 rounds of it thru my BHP, and other than how incredibly filthy it leaves the gun, I've only had one other problem:

When loading my 17-rd. mags, they're a bit more stubborn (I can always do all 17 with my bare hands with brass ammo), requiring the use of a mag loader. And what's more, they're so stubborn, they bend the magloader to a point of uselessness -- unless you bring a workbench and tool chest with you.

I don't have any big beef with it, but I'd much prefer CCI Blazer for "throw away the case" shooting.

Wes

[Arub]

I had a very small sampling of 9mm (two boxes) through a Ruger P95. I did not fire the two boxes back to back. There were a couple of cleanings and several boxes of UMC and Federal American Eagle fired between the Wolf samplings. Although I had no problems, I don't consider the small samplings sufficient to go with "great ammo!". Therefore, I cast no vote, just logged this input.

I appreciate the input and voting of others with more exposure to this brand and look forward to reading additional replies to the questions pose.

Thanks, folks

and Thanks Walt, for setting this poll up.

[MCNETT]

No problema at all with the 7.62X39 or 223, but the .45 ammo broke my extractor in my 1911.
-Mike

[dw58]

I've shot at least 13,000 rounds of 9mm and 6,000 of .40 S&W with no problems in my Glocks. I shoot it in IDPA matches and training with no problems. I've saved enough in ammo to buy another gun.

[cool45auto]

My Ruger KP97DC is fed a steady diet of Wolf. I don't carry the gun much so usually it just sees range sessions with the Wolf I've picked up at gun shows and such. Other than getting really dirty it hasn't given me any problems.

[A. Partisan]

I bought 2000 rounds of 9mm. I have shot 1100 rounds through my Glock without any problems. The only thing I don't like about it..............It stinks.

[HIPOWER]

I use Wolf only in my East Bloc guns such as my Makarov and AK-47 because I believe such guns were meant to use steel cased ammo. I have had no problems with the 9x18 and 7.62x39 so far. In Glocks and other modern guns I use only brass cased ammo.

Good shooting.

[Kenneth Lew]

Shot over 2,000 rds. of Wolf in .45 in several guns. No Prob.
Shot over 6,000 rd. of Wolf in a full auto open bolt. No prob.

Kenneth Lew

[forquidder]

I've shot about 1,000 rounds of 9mm through several CZ's and a Ruger. No problems.

I also have a 14" contender barrel in .223 caliber that thinks the stuff is match grade ammo. I haven't found anything which shoots as well in it.
Only problem there is every once in awhile, it doesn't fire on the first hammer drop because of the hard primers. Second hammer drop always goes bang.

I like to shoot it when I don't feel like picking up brass and will buy more when I come across some at the right price.

[denfoote]

I responded with "No Problems". :D
Of course, my policy is Commie ammo in Commie guns!!
It works great in Pistolet Makarova!!! ;)

[Dave R]

I shot exactly 500 rounds of 9mm in my HP (clone) so I qualify. I bouthg a batch of 500.

I had at least one FTE per mag. Tried it in a differnet pistol. Now down to an FTE about every other mag.

Back to the first pistol (I'm a slow learner) and I started getting stuck cases. Some really bad.

Back to the 2nd pistol ("well, I might as sell shoot it up") and I got some stuck cases there, too, but not as bad.

Ran out of ammo one day with the first pistol. All I had left was the Wolf. "Might as well shoot it up". I'm a real slow learner. Stuck cases. Had to pound one out. Well, that might be a fluke. Then had to pound another one out. Required a vise and some serious dowel beatings.

Back to the 2nd pistol (I'm almost out, and I'm a slow learner). Another bad stuck case.

OK, I'll finish these last few rounds. FTE's all over the place. Well, that's because the extractor chipped. Replace extractor. Berate myself for shooting up all that ammo when my pistols obviously did not like it. Stick with brass ammo now.

Still use Wolf in my AK. No problems there.

[BluesBear]

I had a few problems with the first box. Failures to feed every other magazine or so.

On the second box I alternated Wolf with various other ball ammo.
No failures to feed with the Wolf but all of the others had an occasional feeding problem.

I finally figured that the round was taking most of the recoil energy on extraction and the slide was recoiling just enough to eject and then didn't have enough momentum to strip the next round.

I cleaned the barrel completely and the problen disappeared for almost an entire box. Then it started doing the exact same thing as before.

I ran an oily swab down the bore and let it set a few seconds in the chamber. No problems.

If I lightly oil the chamber, about 1 drop of Hoppes Oil on a swab, I can get through a box with no problems.

I still have 200 rounds left of the 500 I originally bought and I am just saving it for plinking.

[Zundfolge]

I used to buy Wolf in .40S&W 165gr FMJ and 9x18 as practice ammo because it was real cheap (I could get the .40 for $8-10 per box and the Mak for $6).

I found it to be dirtier and less accurate then most other practice ammo and reliability was an issue as a result of the dirt (I could shoot WWB or PMC all day and never have a hickup from my Steyr M40 but after a box of Wolf I would have to do a quick cleaning to keep shooting).

I don't generally like Wolf, but as each gun can be good or bad with each brand of ammo, I say its worth trying in your gun because if it works for you its priced real well (although you might consider that the extra Hoppes and patches you'll need will kinda offset that savings :p )

... oh, and I kinda think the box looks cool. :scrutiny:

[James Bondrock]

Walt, I have shot up about 650 rounds of Wolf 9mm in a Glock 19 and a SIG P228. No problems in either gun. Your list of problems did not include failure to fire , but some Wolf .45 ACP in a Glock 30 that I used to have had quite a few misfires (as many as 10 per box of 50) due to light primer strikes. I have had misfire problems with S&B ammo in that gun, too, so I blame this more on hard European primers and the striker firing system being incompatible. (A small striker powered by a spring will hit the primer with less force than a falling hammer. At least that's my guess. ;) Rather curious for a gun made in Austria, I might add.) I would suggest to prospective users of Wolf that they buy a modest amount, try it in their gun(s), and if it gives any problems, not to buy any more. But don't condemn it without trying it!

[Prodigalshooter]

I used several hundred 9mm in my CZ, but quit buying it due to the prohibition of Wolf at my range. While I had it, it never caused me any problem.

[HSMITH]

Several thousand rounds of 45 and tens of thousands of 9mm for the machine guns in my group without any problem at all. I would guess at a combined 25K rounds at least and I still have not even seen a misfire with it. I don't really have much experience with it outside of the machine guns, and they are built a lot tougher than the typical handgun.........

[Walt Sherrill]

Synopsis, to date:

You can't tell for sure, because individual responders can indicate more than one problem, but I'd say -- thus far -- that its been a mixed bag, with about half of those responding saying no problems, and half having experienced minor to major problems.

Its pretty clear that guns with loose chambers have fewer problems than tight guns. (Glocks are among those with looser chambers.)

And we already knew that the ammo worked well in ex-Communist Bloc weapons.

[aircarver]

.45 in my 1911:
1 magazine from cold with no problems.
After that, the gun is hot enough in the chamber that they start gluing themselves in, and the extractor jumps over.

I shot off the rest of my stock in my CZ-97, which for some reason is able to process them, then never bought Wolf again.

[TooTech]

Para P13. Nothing but problems. I BOUGHT 500 rounds, but have only used 35 of them.

Seems like there's no middle ground with this ammo. It either works fine, or messes up from the get-go.

[444]

I wish you wouldn't have limited it to handguns, so I could have told you about the now 6000+ rounds I have put through my AR15s. But, I guess I can't.

[vmi93]

500+ rounds of .45 ACP through my Kimber CDP II with no problems at all. :D

[Harold Mayo]

I've ALMOST shot 8,000 rounds of 9mm through a Browning hi-power and have had no issues whatsoever.

Dirty? Maybe a little more than some other brands but nothing special.

Inaccurate? Hadn't noticed...it's a handgun, not a precision rifle.

The only problem that I have been worried about is accelerated extractor wear. I haven't measured my extractor dimensions with calipers but, to the naked eye, the extractor in this pistol looks no different than the extractors in any of my other hi-powers.

[JERRY]

im limited to two calibers with wolf. 7.62x39mm in my yugo sks and 9x18mm in my makarov.

wolf has worked better than i expected it to for cheap non reloadable russian ammo.

not one failure of any kind, then again, these 2 guns were made for the stuff or visa versa.

[mini14jac]

I've been shooting it for about 15 years, long guns and handguns.
Glocks, Rugers, Bushmaster, Keltec, and a few others.
No problems.
Just bought 500 rounds of .45 when I tried some in my S&W 457 and it worked fine.

[Beren]

I don't think my Glock 17 has ever had anything but Wolf ammo and the occasional case of Gold Dots run through it. Everyone knows when you're shooting Wolf because it stinks and sometimes it "throws sparks." It leaves a nice layer of gunk inside the gun too, but it all cleans up.

The Springfield 1911 "Loaded" I once owned loved Wolf. Specifically, it loved Wolf ammo so much that it would regularly refuse to part with the spent shell casing. Instead, the case would stick itself inside the chamber and jam the mechinism. Normally it'd require a good couple minutes of gentle prodding to clear the chamber. I put about 50 rounds of Wolf through the Springfield before giving up.

[bountyhunter]

Synopsis, to date:

Synopsis, to date:

You can't tell for sure, because individual responders can indicate more than one problem, but I'd say -- thus far -- that its been a mixed bag, with about half of those responding saying no problems, and half having experienced minor to major problems.


Isn't that pretty much case closed right there? Does anybody want to buy ammo where even 10% of the people using it are having significant problems? Personally, I think ammo failure rate should be zero. I have probably shot over 100,000 rounds of S+B in four different calibers and had zero ammo related problems.


Its pretty clear that guns with loose chambers have fewer problems than tight guns. (Glocks are among those with looser chambers.)

It might be more accurate to say that a looser chamber is a necessary requirement ot cycle steel case lacquered ammo, but not sufficient to guarantee no problems.


And we already knew that the ammo worked well in ex-Communist Bloc weapons.

I'm not so sure we know just how ell it worked. It may have worked every bit as well as the autos that were designed and built in communist block countries (Yugo ring a bell?)

[bountyhunter]

Specifically, it loved Wolf ammo so much that it would regularly refuse to part with the spent shell casing. Instead, the case would stick itself inside the chamber and jam the mechinism.

Which means 100% of the recoil energy is being absorbed by that tiny little hook on the end of your extractor. If it "slips" the rim it rounds over the tip, and remember it's a steel-on-steel abrasion, not brass on steel. If it can't slip past the rim, it stresses the face of the extractor not to mention tries to snap the hook off.

[12 Volt Man]

I have well over 500 rounds of wolf through my commie guns. I haven't found the need to shoot it through my other guns yet. The good old Wally Worlds Valu Packs keep me going.
Here is a link to a similar poll I ran a while back. I am sure this will just add fuel to the fire.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28108

[12 Volt Man]

Interesting note. A guy on another board I read is saying Wolf will no longer be laquer coated, and that he bought some this way.
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145462

[CZ-100]

I put 500 rounds thru my CZ-85 and CZ-100 N O Problems.:what:

[Pepe Domingo]

Um, you forgot to list explosion (KA BOOM) as a choice.

I had shot 2,000+ Wolf 9mm through a variety of handguns. Never a problem....until....

BOOM!

Wrecked my Para-Ordnance D18 slide, wasted my $70 .38 super pre-ban mag, and stung my hand for an hour.

Wolf refunded my money on the remaining case and had Para-Ordnance replace my slide.

Look, blowups can happen with any round. However, keep in mind that quality control means a whole heck of a lot more to the people at Olin, Remington and Federal than it does to Boris on the line over at the Wolf factory. Please do not take this as a slam at Russia, it is just that they do not have the same mentality, or the same weapons that we have. Blow up your AK or Makarov? No problem...$50 will get you another. My pistols are just a lot more fragile, expensive, and sensitive.

Pay a little more and get some brass cased fodder that has a quality name behind it.

Pepe Out

[Walt Sherrill]

Bountyhunter wrote:

Isn't that pretty much case closed right there? Does anybody want to buy ammo where even 10% of the people using it are having significant problems? Unless you're one of the 25-30 who have shot the ammo without problems. For that group -- which is a large segment of the total -- there's been 100% reliability/no problems.

It potentially "problematic" ammo. But unlike American Ammo [brand name], it doesn't seem to be UNSAFE. And for some users its a good, inexpensive alternative. (Sort of like Winchester White Box Value Pack, the strange extraction groove of which causes extraction problems for a small number of guns...)

Guess a reasonable suggestion is to try it, and if it works for you, keep shooting it.

I won't do that myself, as I have inexpensive alternatives. I still worry about steel extractors and steel cases... But I'm trying to be open-minded about this. The number of broken extractors cited, thus far, might not be all that different from the number experienced while shooting any random ammo sample...

I'm not so sure we know just how ell it worked. It may have worked every bit as well as the autos that were designed and built in communist block countries (Yugo ring a bell?)

Hmm. Did Yugo make a rifle? (Yugos were designed by FIAT, by the way -- they were FIATs made in Yugoslavia... And even then, it was probably still an improvement over those strange little EG cars.)

Before you get too down on communist bloc weapons -- that seems to be the implied message, here -- remember that AK-47s, the SKSs, and the Makarovs were all highly regarded by the soldiers who shot them -- and the enemies who faced them.

The Soviets did a lot of stupid things, but some of their military weapons were (and still are) without peer...

With regard to their military rifles: our guys often grabbed them and used them, if they could. This is still happening in Iraq and Afghanistan! And when they do this, they aren't shooting US ammo in them, either. They're shooting that nasty, sticky, smelly lacquer-coated stuff.

[Brad Johnson]

9mm - Twenty five hundred rounds and counting. No ammo-related failures in either my Springfiel XD or my Taurus PT111

45 ACP - One thousand rounds and counting. No ammo-related failures in my Springfield Loaded long-slide.

Brad

[BluesBear]

Bountyhunter
Which means 100% of the recoil energy is being absorbed by that tiny little hook on the end of your extractor.
This would be true if it were a gas-operated weapon.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that a Springfield Loaded is a recoil operated weapon. Therefore it's the cartridge case that is pushing back against the recoil face of the slide.
I have seen 2 1911s that functioned quite well with no extractor tip at all.
The primary need for an extractor on a 1911 type pistol is to remove the cartridge when the slide is manually pulled to the rear.

If you recall, some of the smaller Beretta pistols have no extractor.

Which is why if you get a case stuck in the chamber the best way to remove it is to tap it out with a wooden dowel, brass rod or similar item.
In fact, I carry a small piece of PVC tubing that is just smaller than 9mm in my shooting/cleaning box for stuck casings or squib loads.

[1911Tuner]

Or how about the guys who would never shoot that stuff becasue they spent an hour gettign a stuck Wolf case out of a gun

Or the experience I had when a USP compact that belonged to my
neighbor failed to go to battery AND refused to let us pull the slide
back. When I finally got it to open, the bullet was stuck in the chamber
and retracting the slide pulled the bullet. Powder spilled through
the gun, and it took a wooden dowell rod and a hammer to get the
bullet out. We had noticed this on three other lots of the stuff, but
this was the only one that tied the gun completely up.

We pulled the rest of the box down, and miked the bullets. Size varied from .449 to .454. Weight varied from 224 to 236, and powder charges
varied as much as a half-grain. Me shoot Wolf? Surely not!

Walt...I won't even pick up Amer-c brass for reloading. The stuff is
just that bad.

Cheers all!

Tuner

[1911Tuner]

Blues Bear said:

Therefore it's the cartridge case that is pushing back against the recoil face of the slide.

There's a hell of a thread on GT on that very issue. I've induced a failure to
extract that still allowed the slide to make the full trip and lock on the
empty magazine, but the case hadn't moved. The mouth still seated against the chamber shoulder. So the case pushing on the slide isn't doing it, at least not enough to be significant if the gun is timed right. We're
about at the point of agreeing that the pressure locks the case to the chamber...pushes on the case in that state...and pulls the barrel against
the slide to start the momentum needed to cycle the slide. Not
100% sure, but very close.


And:
I have seen 2 1911s that functioned quite well with no extractor tip at all.

Some will...Some won't. It depends heavily on the unlock and barrel
linkdown timing. if it's a bit too early, while chamber pressure is a little
high, it won't work. Late, when there's not enough residual pressure
in the chamber to blow the case out, and it won't. Time it just right,
and you'd be shocked at how well a 1911 will run without an extractor.

In the former case...early unlock/linkdown...the extractor is bearing the
brunt. Time it just right, and the extractor is acting mainly as an empty
case positioner on the breechface. Late, and the extractor is again pulling the case out of the chamber, but it's not working very hard.

Cheers!

Tuner

[RANash]

Obviously if you've shot 500 rounds of the stuff you most likely like it. Nah, you were just a newbie who didn't know better and you bought a 1000 rounds of the stuff, and you were too cheap to not use it up! (Ask me how I know...)

It is no myth that Wolf can be troublesome in some guns. In my Kimber Gold Match (pre-series II), Wolf would get stuck in the chamber and FTE. I sometimes had to use a cleaning rod to bang out the stuck brass.

In other guns, no problem with it. Nice and cheap.

[bigmtnman]

.380acp - CZ83 and Bersa Thunder
9x18 - Makarov
9mm - CZ/PCR, P99, P228
.45acp - Springfield 1911a1

Never had a problem. I also shoot it in my AK47 and it seems dirtier/dustier than the pistol ammo.

[bountyhunter]

Therefore it's the cartridge case that is pushing back against the recoil face of the slide.

Actually, what would happen is this:

1) There would be ignition, the energy would be directed rearward against the breech face.

2) As the case continued to expand, it sticks dead tight to the barrel chamber walls because of the lacquer super glue (remember, the poster said it had to be hammered out).

3) The barrel will "link down" and stop as the slide assy moves rearward. The slides rearward motin will be stopped by the only part that won't let it:

THE EXTRACTOR HOOK CLAMPED ON THE RIM OF THE FROZEN CARTRIDGE CASE.

Perhaps it is not 100% of the recoil energy at that point since the slide may have moved back a touch, but it's still a good whack to a component not designed to be used as a slide brake.

[bountyhunter]

We're about at the point of agreeing that the pressure locks the case to the chamber...pushes on the case in that state...and pulls the barrel against the slide to start the momentum needed to cycle the slide. Not 100% sure, but very close.


You are correct sir. Either the extractor hook stays on the rim which stops it right there, or it slips (or shears) off and the slide goes back.

[George Hill]

36 to 42... pretty close to being every other guy that tries it as problems with it.
I haven't fired 500... all through the same gun... but I've fired about a case worth of various calibers altogether through different guns... and those numbers play out about right with what I have seen from Wolf Ammo.

[Walt Sherrill]

Probably closer to 50/50, George, since those who answered with problems were free to make multiple entries, and some did.

Still, while the ammo has proved to be trouble-free for some, there's a significant number who have had problems!

[guy sajer]

Besides the ten's of thousands of rounds of Wolf we sell each year , we ran 800 rds through a new Les Baer Thunder Ranch purchased by a customer that wanted us to "loosen it up" for him . No malfuntions .

[Caseless]

Ran 900 rounds thru my then new HK USP 40. Averaging 1 jam every 40 rounds, case stuck in chamber several times. Returned the remaining 600 rounds for a case of their 9mm Luger ammo. 1000 rounds thru a CZ 75B, a few failure to extract, otherwise the 9mm stuff seems reliable as range fodder. The powder charge feels inconsistent in Wolf handgun ammo because recoil seems to vary round to round.