Shake
November 8, 2003, 08:13 PM
Is any manufacturer besides Kimber using them? Anybody have any experience with them? Just wondering if they increase the reliability. . .
Shake
Shake
External extractors on 1911s
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Zak Smith
November 8, 2003, 08:19 PM
Dan Wesson's Patriot series has them.
SIG's new "Granite" series 1911 has them.
Wilson has some pistols with them, I think.
Caspian will make you a slide with a cutout for it.
I have about 10,000 rounds through my DW Patriot with the external extractor. It has been very reliable for me, you just have to remember to remove it and clean its "channel" once every 2000-3000 rounds if you're using a dirty powder.
-z
SIG's new "Granite" series 1911 has them.
Wilson has some pistols with them, I think.
Caspian will make you a slide with a cutout for it.
I have about 10,000 rounds through my DW Patriot with the external extractor. It has been very reliable for me, you just have to remember to remove it and clean its "channel" once every 2000-3000 rounds if you're using a dirty powder.
-z
10-Ring
November 9, 2003, 03:09 AM
I noticed SIG has it on their 1911.
James Bondrock
November 9, 2003, 03:28 AM
I think Smith & Wesson uses an external on their SW1911. As originally designed, the 1911's extractor is a weak point. It is, in itself, a spring, and if the tension, dimensions, hook shape, etc. is incorrect, failures to extract will occur. When gunsmiths talk of "tuning" or "tensioning" a 1911 extractor, what they are actually talking about is bending it. An external extractor has a separate spring that is not highly stressed every time the gun fires.
1911Tuner
November 9, 2003, 04:53 AM
Part of the reason that early production and GI 1911s were so dead
reliable was that the extractor WAS a spring. The problem with
late-production extractors is that they aren't. They're made from
tempered 4340 barstock...at least the good ones are...and
tweaking them is a little more involved than bending. When they
were made of good spring steel, bending was all that was needed, but
not so any more.
I relieve key areas to allow them to cam open without overstressing the
stem, and create angles and radius other places to smooth up the
function where stress can't be helped. All this serves to make the
barstock extractor act more like the spring that it's supposed to be,
but isn't any more. Tempered 4340 is very close, but not quite there
yet, so a little tweaking is required. The main problem with barstock
is that the repeated stress of operation removes the bend, and they
require retensioning periodically unless the extractor is tweaked to
make the operation more gentle. This is the price we pay for less
expensive guns.
If a 1911 owner/shooter would learn to tweak the extractor and
the magazine, he could fix 95% of the functional issues that occur, in
about 10 minutes...and...if the extractor is just slightly modified, and
tension correctly set, you can forget extractor-related malfunctions for
about 30 or 40 thousand rounds. Note that these mods aren't required
with a real spring extractor. Understanding WHY a malfunction happens,
WHAT caused it, and WHERE to go to fix it is the essence of fine-tuning.
MOST functional issues in a 1911 are simple, and are just as simple to
fix...and one of these two things is usually at fault. It's usually the
magazine, and in that, it's usually the magazine spring tension
or an improper follower or follower angle. Eliminate the magazine
problem first, then turn to the extractor. Get those things addressed, and that 1911 will be so reliable that it's boring.
I have an old GI extractor...one of several that I use in one range beater...that has worn three pistols out, and it has never needed retensioning since the initial setting in one pistol In all the years and the tens of thousands of rounds that have gone past it, there have been maybe 5 extraction failures, and those were the fault of the ammunition. That frequency will likely occur with any extractor in any pistol...internal OR external.
The advantage of the internal is that it's easily serviced or replaced in
the field without tools. Not so for the external. Probably not as important
on a pistol that won't be dragged through the mud, rain, and dust far from
the help of an armorer, but still somewhat valid...at least for me.
Cheers all!
Tuner
reliable was that the extractor WAS a spring. The problem with
late-production extractors is that they aren't. They're made from
tempered 4340 barstock...at least the good ones are...and
tweaking them is a little more involved than bending. When they
were made of good spring steel, bending was all that was needed, but
not so any more.
I relieve key areas to allow them to cam open without overstressing the
stem, and create angles and radius other places to smooth up the
function where stress can't be helped. All this serves to make the
barstock extractor act more like the spring that it's supposed to be,
but isn't any more. Tempered 4340 is very close, but not quite there
yet, so a little tweaking is required. The main problem with barstock
is that the repeated stress of operation removes the bend, and they
require retensioning periodically unless the extractor is tweaked to
make the operation more gentle. This is the price we pay for less
expensive guns.
If a 1911 owner/shooter would learn to tweak the extractor and
the magazine, he could fix 95% of the functional issues that occur, in
about 10 minutes...and...if the extractor is just slightly modified, and
tension correctly set, you can forget extractor-related malfunctions for
about 30 or 40 thousand rounds. Note that these mods aren't required
with a real spring extractor. Understanding WHY a malfunction happens,
WHAT caused it, and WHERE to go to fix it is the essence of fine-tuning.
MOST functional issues in a 1911 are simple, and are just as simple to
fix...and one of these two things is usually at fault. It's usually the
magazine, and in that, it's usually the magazine spring tension
or an improper follower or follower angle. Eliminate the magazine
problem first, then turn to the extractor. Get those things addressed, and that 1911 will be so reliable that it's boring.
I have an old GI extractor...one of several that I use in one range beater...that has worn three pistols out, and it has never needed retensioning since the initial setting in one pistol In all the years and the tens of thousands of rounds that have gone past it, there have been maybe 5 extraction failures, and those were the fault of the ammunition. That frequency will likely occur with any extractor in any pistol...internal OR external.
The advantage of the internal is that it's easily serviced or replaced in
the field without tools. Not so for the external. Probably not as important
on a pistol that won't be dragged through the mud, rain, and dust far from
the help of an armorer, but still somewhat valid...at least for me.
Cheers all!
Tuner
Sean Smith
November 9, 2003, 09:18 AM
The internal extractor is a weak point because current 1911 makers have made it so, by taking material short-cuts not accounted for in the original design, and by making QC something the customer does themselves.
The design is a proven and effective one, one that is so good that it takes extraordianry effort to come up with materials cheap enough to make it fail. Having done so, however, the various companies have come up with new external extractor designs to fix their self-inflicted problem. A bit like designing titanium shoes so you don't hurt yourself when you shoot yourself in the foot, rather than simply not shooting your feet.
The design is a proven and effective one, one that is so good that it takes extraordianry effort to come up with materials cheap enough to make it fail. Having done so, however, the various companies have come up with new external extractor designs to fix their self-inflicted problem. A bit like designing titanium shoes so you don't hurt yourself when you shoot yourself in the foot, rather than simply not shooting your feet.
1911Tuner
November 9, 2003, 09:41 AM
I like Sean's response! Mind if I use that analogy sometime?:cool:
Cheers!
Tuner
Cheers!
Tuner
Gary G23
November 9, 2003, 10:04 AM
The external extractors are the reason I am back to being a 1911 owner. The 1911 is the greatest pistol out there WHEN it's working and I hope the external extractors will keep them working. Only time will tell as I have only had my Kimber Tactical Pro II for two weeks. For me anyway if I pay several hundred dollars for a pistol I don't think I should have to have it "tweaked" before I can use it.
1911Tuner
November 9, 2003, 10:14 AM
Welcome back to the Browning Fold, Gary!
A good external with a good spring should do fine. It worked on
the P-35, and should on the 1911, too. The key word is "GOOD".
Bean counters stay up nights trying to save 2 cents per gun here and
there. It's like an unwritten law or somethin'. JMB probably had a
round or two with'em, and finally wound up sayin':
"I told you TWICE, dammit..NO!
A wise old Gunnery Sargeant told me once: Your equipment was
supplied by the lowest bidder." Since 1911s don't go to war any
more...at least not on a large scale...the primary reason that they're
being built is to sell. Profit is the driving force...not keeping
soldiers alive so they can win wars.
Assuming good components, I have no problem with an external other than
ease of service/maintenance. I like bein' able to gut a 1911 without
tools in under a minute...under all conditions. Let that tiny spring
get away from you in the field, or even in your kitchen, and the pistol
is out of the game.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
A good external with a good spring should do fine. It worked on
the P-35, and should on the 1911, too. The key word is "GOOD".
Bean counters stay up nights trying to save 2 cents per gun here and
there. It's like an unwritten law or somethin'. JMB probably had a
round or two with'em, and finally wound up sayin':
"I told you TWICE, dammit..NO!
A wise old Gunnery Sargeant told me once: Your equipment was
supplied by the lowest bidder." Since 1911s don't go to war any
more...at least not on a large scale...the primary reason that they're
being built is to sell. Profit is the driving force...not keeping
soldiers alive so they can win wars.
Assuming good components, I have no problem with an external other than
ease of service/maintenance. I like bein' able to gut a 1911 without
tools in under a minute...under all conditions. Let that tiny spring
get away from you in the field, or even in your kitchen, and the pistol
is out of the game.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
Kestrel
November 9, 2003, 11:47 AM
Tuner,
Why in the world do the manufacturers not use spring steel any more for extractors?
Steve
Why in the world do the manufacturers not use spring steel any more for extractors?
Steve
MacPelto
November 9, 2003, 12:09 PM
Does anybody still make spring steel extractors? If not, how hard is it to get an older one and fit it up to a current pistol?
45auto
November 9, 2003, 01:31 PM
I've read Cylinder and slide produces a "spring steel" extractor. True or not, I don't know.
My internals have been great, no trouble for many, many rounds. But, at $20-30 it might not be a bad idea just to replace them at certain round counts instead of waiting for it to break... cheap insurance.
My internals have been great, no trouble for many, many rounds. But, at $20-30 it might not be a bad idea just to replace them at certain round counts instead of waiting for it to break... cheap insurance.
Wildalaska
November 9, 2003, 01:33 PM
C&S makes spring steel extractors....
WildinternalisOKAlaska
WildinternalisOKAlaska
1911Tuner
November 9, 2003, 03:17 PM
Tuner,
Why in the world do the manufacturers not use spring steel any more for extractors?
Steve
Money. 1911s aren't built to carry to war any more. They are
built to sell for profit. Some bean counter discovered that barstock
extractors are a buck cheaper, and the rest is history. Not only that,
but they aren't manufactured in-house any more. They found out
that a contractor will make them another buck cheaper than THEY
can make them...See the part about your equipment being supplied
by the lowest bidder. I don't even want to get into investment
castings or MIM.
Cylinder and Slide does make real spring steel extractors, and
the prices are in line with good, tempered 4340 parts. One
problem is that they seem to be out-of-spec in some lots. Haven't
seen it, but have heard of the bad ones. The bad ones are reported
to be too long from the front pad to the front of the hook. They
make contact with the barrel. C&S will replace a bad one, but
they take their time. Again...This is rumored, and I haven't actually
seen a bad one. I use modified Wilson Bulletproof extractors, and
have had excellent results with them. The mod is easy to do. I
will provide details if anybody wants.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Why in the world do the manufacturers not use spring steel any more for extractors?
Steve
Money. 1911s aren't built to carry to war any more. They are
built to sell for profit. Some bean counter discovered that barstock
extractors are a buck cheaper, and the rest is history. Not only that,
but they aren't manufactured in-house any more. They found out
that a contractor will make them another buck cheaper than THEY
can make them...See the part about your equipment being supplied
by the lowest bidder. I don't even want to get into investment
castings or MIM.
Cylinder and Slide does make real spring steel extractors, and
the prices are in line with good, tempered 4340 parts. One
problem is that they seem to be out-of-spec in some lots. Haven't
seen it, but have heard of the bad ones. The bad ones are reported
to be too long from the front pad to the front of the hook. They
make contact with the barrel. C&S will replace a bad one, but
they take their time. Again...This is rumored, and I haven't actually
seen a bad one. I use modified Wilson Bulletproof extractors, and
have had excellent results with them. The mod is easy to do. I
will provide details if anybody wants.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Kestrel
November 9, 2003, 05:12 PM
Tuner,
Details on your mods for the Wilson Bulletproof would be very appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
Details on your mods for the Wilson Bulletproof would be very appreciated.
Thanks,
Steve
1911Tuner
November 9, 2003, 05:49 PM
Be glad to Steve.
You'll need a small grinding wheel or a Dremel. Use a wheel with at
least a half-inch diameter if you use a Dremel.
A flat Swiss pattern needle file, and a medium India stone.
The center pads on the extractor are .205 nominal diameter.
Roll the outer pad...right side...on the wheel to reduce the diameter
about .010-.012 inch. If you know how to grind to a radius with
the Dremel, you can use it for this. Polishing is optional.
Now, go to the inner pad...left side...and radius-grind that one
to further reduce the overall diameter by another .005 inch.
Go to the front pad...the one just behind the hook on the inside,
and radius-grind it to .125-.130 inch, including the thickness of the
flat backside of the stem.
Go to the bottom of the hook and use the file to cut a small bevel to
allow the case rim to cam the extractor open easier. The Brown
Hardcore already has this bevel. On the bottom front of the hook...
the part that bears against the rim when it extracts, lightly radius
it so the corner won't dig in to the rim as it engages. No need for
a heavy cut...just break the corner a little and polish it.
Polish the whole front part of the hook, but be careful not to
round off the sharp edge of the hook itself. It needs a good bite
into the back of the rim.
To tension it...real rocket science here...Open the jaws of a vise wide
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with.
BEFORE you install it, check the pistol for stem bind or other potential
problems in the feed cycle. Load a magazine with 7 rounds, remove the
recoil spring and plug, but leave the bushing in. From the full back
position, you should be able to feed a round by pushing on the
back of the slide smoothly with one finger. Not hard, but not gentle,
either. If it will feed easily, install the extractor and repeat. If you can
feel just a very slight hesitation with the extractor added, but the
slide goes to battery easily, you're done. The pistol won't need a heavy
spring to go to battery, and the extractor has more than enough tension.
The tempered barstock extractor now acts like a spring, and it will
cam open much easier relative to the amount of tension on it
than it would with the bend applied on just the front. You may notice
that your empty brass lands closer to you with the extractor set up this way. Maximum tension is applied just as the extractor reaches maximum
deflection as the outer pad touches the channel wall, and stress is
reduced at the hook.
Series 80 type extractors should be supported on the vise just forward
of the plunger cut-out to prevent deforming it. Aside from that, the
mods are identical.
If any of this isn't clear enough. let me kniow, and I'll try to clean it up.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
You'll need a small grinding wheel or a Dremel. Use a wheel with at
least a half-inch diameter if you use a Dremel.
A flat Swiss pattern needle file, and a medium India stone.
The center pads on the extractor are .205 nominal diameter.
Roll the outer pad...right side...on the wheel to reduce the diameter
about .010-.012 inch. If you know how to grind to a radius with
the Dremel, you can use it for this. Polishing is optional.
Now, go to the inner pad...left side...and radius-grind that one
to further reduce the overall diameter by another .005 inch.
Go to the front pad...the one just behind the hook on the inside,
and radius-grind it to .125-.130 inch, including the thickness of the
flat backside of the stem.
Go to the bottom of the hook and use the file to cut a small bevel to
allow the case rim to cam the extractor open easier. The Brown
Hardcore already has this bevel. On the bottom front of the hook...
the part that bears against the rim when it extracts, lightly radius
it so the corner won't dig in to the rim as it engages. No need for
a heavy cut...just break the corner a little and polish it.
Polish the whole front part of the hook, but be careful not to
round off the sharp edge of the hook itself. It needs a good bite
into the back of the rim.
To tension it...real rocket science here...Open the jaws of a vise wide
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with.
BEFORE you install it, check the pistol for stem bind or other potential
problems in the feed cycle. Load a magazine with 7 rounds, remove the
recoil spring and plug, but leave the bushing in. From the full back
position, you should be able to feed a round by pushing on the
back of the slide smoothly with one finger. Not hard, but not gentle,
either. If it will feed easily, install the extractor and repeat. If you can
feel just a very slight hesitation with the extractor added, but the
slide goes to battery easily, you're done. The pistol won't need a heavy
spring to go to battery, and the extractor has more than enough tension.
The tempered barstock extractor now acts like a spring, and it will
cam open much easier relative to the amount of tension on it
than it would with the bend applied on just the front. You may notice
that your empty brass lands closer to you with the extractor set up this way. Maximum tension is applied just as the extractor reaches maximum
deflection as the outer pad touches the channel wall, and stress is
reduced at the hook.
Series 80 type extractors should be supported on the vise just forward
of the plunger cut-out to prevent deforming it. Aside from that, the
mods are identical.
If any of this isn't clear enough. let me kniow, and I'll try to clean it up.
Luck to ya!
Tuner
Sven
November 9, 2003, 05:58 PM
Gunsmith John Jardine says that a very common thing he gets in his shop are external extractors on newer 1911 designs which have been blown off the gun by a 'torched round'.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying.
Jardine is of course a 1911 purist and while stopping sort of deriding the external extractor, he was basically saying "if it ain't broke, why fix it?". When asked why manufacturers have moved to using the external extractor, he said that the primary decision to do this is assembly costs. An external extractor can apparently be mass assembled more easily than of an internal extractor, which must be 'tuned'.
Just passing on things overheard said by someone who seems to know what he is doing.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying.
Jardine is of course a 1911 purist and while stopping sort of deriding the external extractor, he was basically saying "if it ain't broke, why fix it?". When asked why manufacturers have moved to using the external extractor, he said that the primary decision to do this is assembly costs. An external extractor can apparently be mass assembled more easily than of an internal extractor, which must be 'tuned'.
Just passing on things overheard said by someone who seems to know what he is doing.
James Bondrock
November 9, 2003, 06:40 PM
"Gunsmith John Jardine says that a very common thing he gets in his shop are external extractors on newer 1911 designs which have been blown off the gun by a 'torched round'.
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying."
An unintended safety valve? ;) In such a case, without the blown-out extractor giving the hot gas a place to go, it might flash down into the magazine and detonate the cartridges. Few of us wear a catcher's mitt on each hand when we shoot. ;)
I'd never heard about this before, but a torched round is where the brass develops a small hole (usually reloads, usually near the web of the brass) and the hot gas escapes by the nearest exit, which is usually the external extractor groove... sending the part flying."
An unintended safety valve? ;) In such a case, without the blown-out extractor giving the hot gas a place to go, it might flash down into the magazine and detonate the cartridges. Few of us wear a catcher's mitt on each hand when we shoot. ;)
James Bondrock
November 9, 2003, 06:44 PM
"To tension it...real rocket science here...Open the jaws of a vise wide
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with."
See, I told you he was bending it!
;) However, knowing how, where and how much to bend it is the "tuning" part. :cool:
enough to support the extractor just behind the hook, and just ahead of the back end...the part that you see at the rear of the slide. Strike it
lightly on the inside center pad to create a slight curve along the whole
length of the stem. If the extractor is a fairly tight fit in the channel,
it will probably work. If it requires a lot of effort to install it, remove a
little of the bend by laying back on the vise and pressing with your thumb.
Don't shock it with the hammer again when reducing bend. if it needs
more bend, the hammer should be used, lightly. You'll develop a
"feel" for it after a few times, and can tell how much force to strike with."
See, I told you he was bending it!
;) However, knowing how, where and how much to bend it is the "tuning" part. :cool:
hnm201
December 31, 2003, 05:23 PM
First I'd like to thank 1911 Tuner and other who have answer my noobie questions regarding my 1911 on other threads on THR and 1911Forums.
I took my newly purchased Springfield Milspec to the range this morning with a Wilson Combat mag. In 100 rds I experienced the failure to eject (that I described previously on the next to last round in the mag) three times. I could have been limp wristing the gun one of the time as I was shooting one handed and the sun was in my eyes and I was trying to nail a pop bottle.
On the way home I stopped by the gun shop. One of the salesmen there (not a smith) tells me that the extractor has enough tension if you can clip a cartridge rim in behind the hook and have it stay there. He then explains that you have too much tension if the round doesn't fall out when you wave the slide around. This guy is a big goof ball so I take everything he says with a big grain of salt.
Ok, so I go home and take the slide off the gun and try to clip the rim of a round in there. It won't even stay put at all. No tension. I removed the extractor and it is straight as can be. Then I got on the high road and did some reading. Then I buzzed over to edbrown.com and ordered a Hardcore Extractor. Then I decided, what the hay, lets mess this one up. So I put it in the vise and wacked it but I struck it off of the center mark. See the red arrow in the image below.
http://dombosco.home.insightbb.com/extractor.jpg
I fitted the extractor in the slide an now it appears to have the right amount of tension (assuming our man at the gun shop counter knows what he is talking about), or at least it's a lot closer than it was.
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark? I won't be able to make it to the range again until Saturday at the soonest.
I wish I had another 1911 on hand to compare this one too. There seemed to be *a lot* of space between the back of the cartridge and the breech face when I had the round snapped in. Basically what is holding it in there is the extractor holding it on one side and the wall of the breech on the other. The breech face isn't even touching the back of the cartridge. Is that normal?
BTW, I took the firing pin out of the slide while I messing around with the slide/extractor/cartridge.
I took my newly purchased Springfield Milspec to the range this morning with a Wilson Combat mag. In 100 rds I experienced the failure to eject (that I described previously on the next to last round in the mag) three times. I could have been limp wristing the gun one of the time as I was shooting one handed and the sun was in my eyes and I was trying to nail a pop bottle.
On the way home I stopped by the gun shop. One of the salesmen there (not a smith) tells me that the extractor has enough tension if you can clip a cartridge rim in behind the hook and have it stay there. He then explains that you have too much tension if the round doesn't fall out when you wave the slide around. This guy is a big goof ball so I take everything he says with a big grain of salt.
Ok, so I go home and take the slide off the gun and try to clip the rim of a round in there. It won't even stay put at all. No tension. I removed the extractor and it is straight as can be. Then I got on the high road and did some reading. Then I buzzed over to edbrown.com and ordered a Hardcore Extractor. Then I decided, what the hay, lets mess this one up. So I put it in the vise and wacked it but I struck it off of the center mark. See the red arrow in the image below.
http://dombosco.home.insightbb.com/extractor.jpg
I fitted the extractor in the slide an now it appears to have the right amount of tension (assuming our man at the gun shop counter knows what he is talking about), or at least it's a lot closer than it was.
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark? I won't be able to make it to the range again until Saturday at the soonest.
I wish I had another 1911 on hand to compare this one too. There seemed to be *a lot* of space between the back of the cartridge and the breech face when I had the round snapped in. Basically what is holding it in there is the extractor holding it on one side and the wall of the breech on the other. The breech face isn't even touching the back of the cartridge. Is that normal?
BTW, I took the firing pin out of the slide while I messing around with the slide/extractor/cartridge.
1911Tuner
December 31, 2003, 06:57 PM
Howdy Dominic. You asked:
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark?
Not likely, but it may not have the right geometry with the bend at that
point...which probably won't make much difference anyway.
The trick is to get enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty brass
tight against the breechface, and still allow a smooth feed. The shop
salesman's method is viable, but if you don't get the round centered on the
breechface, you may get a flase reading. Try this:
Let a dummy round chamber at full speed from the magazine from slidelock. (or a live round if you're VERY careful) Remove the magazine.
Pull the slide back far enough to extract the round, but don't let it touch the
ejector. The nose of the round should droop just a little as it clears the
chamber, but not fall down the magwell. Shake the pistol up and down and from side to side a few times...not vigorously, but not gently either.
The round should stay put. If it falls down the magwell, the tension needs to be increased.
When you get it right, remove the recoil spring and plug from the gun. Load the magazine to capacity, and lock it in the gun. Pull the slide
fully to the rear, and push it into battery with your thumb. The top
round in the magazine should chamber easily. If it hangs up, don't automatically assume that the extractor tension is too high just yet.
If it hangs, hit the back of the slide with the heel of your hand to put it in battery. Remove the round and look at the side of the case just behind the
mouth. If there's a crescent-shaped mark or dent there, you have some stem bind, and the extractor was installed at the factory with insufficient tension to allow a round to chamber instead of addressing the real issue.
If the mark is there, take the tip of a pen knife and LIGHTLY break the
corner at the TOP of the barrel throat, right where the chamber begins Go all the way around the whole radius. All you need to do is break the corner. Polish it with a piece of 600 grit wet or dry paper on your fingertip. Don't touch the feed ramp in the frame. Sometimes, this is all that's needed to let the round break over and enter the chamber. Repeat the test to see if the round will chamber more smoothly. If it does, you're probably good to go. If not, you may have to take a litle tension of the extractor, or check to see if the front of the hook is contacting the case in the extractor groove.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Have I totall screwed my extractor up by hitting it off the center mark?
Not likely, but it may not have the right geometry with the bend at that
point...which probably won't make much difference anyway.
The trick is to get enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty brass
tight against the breechface, and still allow a smooth feed. The shop
salesman's method is viable, but if you don't get the round centered on the
breechface, you may get a flase reading. Try this:
Let a dummy round chamber at full speed from the magazine from slidelock. (or a live round if you're VERY careful) Remove the magazine.
Pull the slide back far enough to extract the round, but don't let it touch the
ejector. The nose of the round should droop just a little as it clears the
chamber, but not fall down the magwell. Shake the pistol up and down and from side to side a few times...not vigorously, but not gently either.
The round should stay put. If it falls down the magwell, the tension needs to be increased.
When you get it right, remove the recoil spring and plug from the gun. Load the magazine to capacity, and lock it in the gun. Pull the slide
fully to the rear, and push it into battery with your thumb. The top
round in the magazine should chamber easily. If it hangs up, don't automatically assume that the extractor tension is too high just yet.
If it hangs, hit the back of the slide with the heel of your hand to put it in battery. Remove the round and look at the side of the case just behind the
mouth. If there's a crescent-shaped mark or dent there, you have some stem bind, and the extractor was installed at the factory with insufficient tension to allow a round to chamber instead of addressing the real issue.
If the mark is there, take the tip of a pen knife and LIGHTLY break the
corner at the TOP of the barrel throat, right where the chamber begins Go all the way around the whole radius. All you need to do is break the corner. Polish it with a piece of 600 grit wet or dry paper on your fingertip. Don't touch the feed ramp in the frame. Sometimes, this is all that's needed to let the round break over and enter the chamber. Repeat the test to see if the round will chamber more smoothly. If it does, you're probably good to go. If not, you may have to take a litle tension of the extractor, or check to see if the front of the hook is contacting the case in the extractor groove.
Standin' by...
Tuner
Jim K
December 31, 2003, 08:32 PM
The idea that Browning was dedicated to the internal extractor does not hold water, and seems to be put forth by folks who have no knowledge of any Browning pistol except the 1911. The fact is that at various times he used internal extractors that were their own springs, external extractors that were springs, and external extractors powered by coil springs. In other words, like most designers, he used what worked in a particular application.
As designed, the 1911 extractor hook will not hold the rim tightly against the breech face. There is about .10 (.099+.01 per the spec, IIRC) between the breech face and the extractor hook. As the empty case is held for the ejector, its rim is not held by the hook, but by the extractor part behind the hook.
The reason for that gap is interesting. When what became the 1911 was under development, the only .45 ammunition that was authorized for testing was that produced by Frankford Arsenal. At that time, Frankford had little experience with cartridges that were supported on the case mouth (case length in revolvers was not especially critical), and some of their cases were a bit short. Fearing that ammo produced under wartime conditions might be worse, the army asked Browning to design the extractor to allow a short case to be extracted even if the round was not fired. The only way to do that was to move the extractor hook forward. This Browning did, and the extractor worked.
Once the design was adopted by the army, and functioned properly, there was no reason or desire to redesign the extractor system when the original concern ultimately proved to be baseless. Today, ammunition production is held to close tolerances and there is no real reason not to go to the external extractor.
As 1911Tuner so well says, the current problems with internal extractors are almost all due to poor material; 4340 barstock is bad enough, but some extractors are cast or made by MIM. These have even less "spring" than tempered barstock.
Jim
As designed, the 1911 extractor hook will not hold the rim tightly against the breech face. There is about .10 (.099+.01 per the spec, IIRC) between the breech face and the extractor hook. As the empty case is held for the ejector, its rim is not held by the hook, but by the extractor part behind the hook.
The reason for that gap is interesting. When what became the 1911 was under development, the only .45 ammunition that was authorized for testing was that produced by Frankford Arsenal. At that time, Frankford had little experience with cartridges that were supported on the case mouth (case length in revolvers was not especially critical), and some of their cases were a bit short. Fearing that ammo produced under wartime conditions might be worse, the army asked Browning to design the extractor to allow a short case to be extracted even if the round was not fired. The only way to do that was to move the extractor hook forward. This Browning did, and the extractor worked.
Once the design was adopted by the army, and functioned properly, there was no reason or desire to redesign the extractor system when the original concern ultimately proved to be baseless. Today, ammunition production is held to close tolerances and there is no real reason not to go to the external extractor.
As 1911Tuner so well says, the current problems with internal extractors are almost all due to poor material; 4340 barstock is bad enough, but some extractors are cast or made by MIM. These have even less "spring" than tempered barstock.
Jim
hnm201
December 31, 2003, 10:09 PM
Ok, after reading your reply I dissambled and took the extractor out and just *looked* at again. I then realized that it would be best to do your tests before bending/unbending or any further modification and reassembled.
The trick is to get enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty brass tight against the breechface, and still allow a smooth feed. The shop salesman's method is viable, but if you don't get the round centered on the breechface, you may get a flase reading....
How tight is "tight"? In my post above with the pic I said that there was a lot of play/space between the back of the case and the breech face. Well, maybe I was thinking about what it looked like *before* I "tuned" (whacked, bent) the extractor. Now there is about the .10 of space between the breech face and the case that Jim Keenan mentions above. I guess I need to buy some gauges (along with some real tools) but just by eyeballing it looks close. Really, I mean with the "untuned" extractor it just wasn't even close. A round would not hold in place *at all* there was so much room.
Let a dummy round chamber at full speed from the magazine from slidelock. (or a live round if you're VERY careful) Remove the magazine.
Pull the slide back far enough to extract the round, but don't let it touch the
ejector. The nose of the round should droop just a little as it clears the
chamber, but not fall down the magwell. Shake the pistol up and down and from side to side a few times...not vigorously, but not gently either.
The round should stay put.
When I do this the round doesn't droop much and it does stay in place held by the extactor and does not fall into the magwell. So that's a PASS.
When you get it right, remove the recoil spring and plug from the gun. Load the magazine to capacity, and lock it in the gun. Pull the slide
fully to the rear, and push it into battery with your thumb. The top
round in the magazine should chamber easily.
Smooth and sweet. PASS! I am somewhat amazed and yet still skeptical that I could have actually done anything to increase the reliability of my pistol. ;) But I guess I will find out Saturday!
As I mentioned earlier, I have an Ed Brown Hardcore Extractor on order. My current plan is to try to make this extractor work, and if I can then pull it to use as a spare then try to get the Ed Brown to work. So, I can whack.....er....."tune" the Ed Brown the same way? I don't really want to get into the "advanced tuning" that requires dremeling at this juncture, not until I have some inexpensive extractors to destroy while attempting to learn how to use my dremel tool (which has so far only been used to remove rust from my great grandmother's cast iron pans and dutch ovens). I am quite dangerous and unpredictable with a dremel.
If this works, I'll just be amazed. Almost as amazed as I am by the fact that I've been wearing my three pound government model IWB all day in a Milt Sparks Watch 6 without suffering debilitating pain. I think I am becoming a 1911 person.
P.S. When I spoke to the shop salesman earlier today I asked him if he had many folks ask for installation of a spring steel "
as opposed to 4040 bar stock" extractor and he looked at me like I was crazy. This place bills itself as a Sig Sauer & 1911 shop. This is the same place that installed a beavertail on my friends Colt 70s series and let him pick it up take it home to discover that the grip saftey didn't work. Sigh. They're really the only gunsmith that I know of in Louisville, Kentucky.
The trick is to get enough tension on the extractor to hold the empty brass tight against the breechface, and still allow a smooth feed. The shop salesman's method is viable, but if you don't get the round centered on the breechface, you may get a flase reading....
How tight is "tight"? In my post above with the pic I said that there was a lot of play/space between the back of the case and the breech face. Well, maybe I was thinking about what it looked like *before* I "tuned" (whacked, bent) the extractor. Now there is about the .10 of space between the breech face and the case that Jim Keenan mentions above. I guess I need to buy some gauges (along with some real tools) but just by eyeballing it looks close. Really, I mean with the "untuned" extractor it just wasn't even close. A round would not hold in place *at all* there was so much room.
Let a dummy round chamber at full speed from the magazine from slidelock. (or a live round if you're VERY careful) Remove the magazine.
Pull the slide back far enough to extract the round, but don't let it touch the
ejector. The nose of the round should droop just a little as it clears the
chamber, but not fall down the magwell. Shake the pistol up and down and from side to side a few times...not vigorously, but not gently either.
The round should stay put.
When I do this the round doesn't droop much and it does stay in place held by the extactor and does not fall into the magwell. So that's a PASS.
When you get it right, remove the recoil spring and plug from the gun. Load the magazine to capacity, and lock it in the gun. Pull the slide
fully to the rear, and push it into battery with your thumb. The top
round in the magazine should chamber easily.
Smooth and sweet. PASS! I am somewhat amazed and yet still skeptical that I could have actually done anything to increase the reliability of my pistol. ;) But I guess I will find out Saturday!
As I mentioned earlier, I have an Ed Brown Hardcore Extractor on order. My current plan is to try to make this extractor work, and if I can then pull it to use as a spare then try to get the Ed Brown to work. So, I can whack.....er....."tune" the Ed Brown the same way? I don't really want to get into the "advanced tuning" that requires dremeling at this juncture, not until I have some inexpensive extractors to destroy while attempting to learn how to use my dremel tool (which has so far only been used to remove rust from my great grandmother's cast iron pans and dutch ovens). I am quite dangerous and unpredictable with a dremel.
If this works, I'll just be amazed. Almost as amazed as I am by the fact that I've been wearing my three pound government model IWB all day in a Milt Sparks Watch 6 without suffering debilitating pain. I think I am becoming a 1911 person.
P.S. When I spoke to the shop salesman earlier today I asked him if he had many folks ask for installation of a spring steel "
as opposed to 4040 bar stock" extractor and he looked at me like I was crazy. This place bills itself as a Sig Sauer & 1911 shop. This is the same place that installed a beavertail on my friends Colt 70s series and let him pick it up take it home to discover that the grip saftey didn't work. Sigh. They're really the only gunsmith that I know of in Louisville, Kentucky.
BluesBear
January 1, 2004, 12:42 AM
Which place is this Dominic?
When I lived in Louisville I always used Gary Roman at Firearms Service Center for the stuff I couldn't do myself.
When I lived in Louisville I always used Gary Roman at Firearms Service Center for the stuff I couldn't do myself.
Hawk
January 1, 2004, 01:30 AM
How tight is "tight"?
That was my problem - due to lack of experience, I didn't trust my ability to work with subjective measurements ("tight") and actually invested in the Weigand bender gizmo and tension checking brass whotis from Brownell's.
I'd gotten a Dan Wesson Pointman that had been "rode hard and put up wet" and didn't figure I could make it much more neurotic than it already was when I got it. She runs like a Swiss watch now - I gotta admit that sometime between the extractor with associated gizmos and "drop in" trigger job, the Pointman stopped being the bargain it started out being.
THR was a great resource as was pistolsmith.com where I got an immediate accurate diagnosis concerning the hammer strut interfering with the grip safety (the pointman had numerous issues).
I'm as bad as anyone with insisting that a new gun work right - my Kimber Eclipse and STI didn't disappoint. However, I've been emboldened by the Pointman and just may take in another homeless waif. I feel the pull of the dark side.
Question for Tuner: what do you think of the Aftec spring loaded internal?
That was my problem - due to lack of experience, I didn't trust my ability to work with subjective measurements ("tight") and actually invested in the Weigand bender gizmo and tension checking brass whotis from Brownell's.
I'd gotten a Dan Wesson Pointman that had been "rode hard and put up wet" and didn't figure I could make it much more neurotic than it already was when I got it. She runs like a Swiss watch now - I gotta admit that sometime between the extractor with associated gizmos and "drop in" trigger job, the Pointman stopped being the bargain it started out being.
THR was a great resource as was pistolsmith.com where I got an immediate accurate diagnosis concerning the hammer strut interfering with the grip safety (the pointman had numerous issues).
I'm as bad as anyone with insisting that a new gun work right - my Kimber Eclipse and STI didn't disappoint. However, I've been emboldened by the Pointman and just may take in another homeless waif. I feel the pull of the dark side.
Question for Tuner: what do you think of the Aftec spring loaded internal?
1911Tuner
January 1, 2004, 06:40 AM
Hawk said:
Question for Tuner: what do you think of the Aftec spring loaded internal?
With the limited exprience that I have with them...mixed. It's a pretty
slick attempt to get the "spring" back into barstock extractors, and works
well...until the springs wear out, and one usually goes south before the other one does.
Then it gets a little busy for my tastes, but I'm pretty much sold on the
pistol's "Easy Service Afield" featuress, which the AFTEC negates to some degree. Tiny springs and other parts have a tendency to get fumbled into
the end zone. If they would redesign it to make the whole thing a captive
assembly...qwuick-change, if you will...it would be better, though more expensive to buy two of them and keep one in reserve.
In my ancient way of thinking, it's an ingenious solution to a non-existent
problem. For less than the cost of one of those gizmos, a really good spring steel extractor could be made and sold, and pretty much put an end to extractor problems. Problems is...that would put extractor makers out of business in about 5 years.
In all fairness, the guys who I know who use them swear by them. They
still keep a conventional extractor pre-tuned to the gun in their range bags,
though. The smart ones do, anyway.
That there's my nickel's worth. The only way to know if you like'em is to
fork over the bucks and try one. Might be a good idea to order a couple
of spare spring sets, though.
Cheers!
Tuner
Question for Tuner: what do you think of the Aftec spring loaded internal?
With the limited exprience that I have with them...mixed. It's a pretty
slick attempt to get the "spring" back into barstock extractors, and works
well...until the springs wear out, and one usually goes south before the other one does.
Then it gets a little busy for my tastes, but I'm pretty much sold on the
pistol's "Easy Service Afield" featuress, which the AFTEC negates to some degree. Tiny springs and other parts have a tendency to get fumbled into
the end zone. If they would redesign it to make the whole thing a captive
assembly...qwuick-change, if you will...it would be better, though more expensive to buy two of them and keep one in reserve.
In my ancient way of thinking, it's an ingenious solution to a non-existent
problem. For less than the cost of one of those gizmos, a really good spring steel extractor could be made and sold, and pretty much put an end to extractor problems. Problems is...that would put extractor makers out of business in about 5 years.
In all fairness, the guys who I know who use them swear by them. They
still keep a conventional extractor pre-tuned to the gun in their range bags,
though. The smart ones do, anyway.
That there's my nickel's worth. The only way to know if you like'em is to
fork over the bucks and try one. Might be a good idea to order a couple
of spare spring sets, though.
Cheers!
Tuner
1911Tuner
January 1, 2004, 07:21 AM
Sorry for the double reply...:rolleyes: Sometimes I don't
have enough coffee down my neck to see when I read these.
Dominic, yes...You can "whack" on the Brown Hardcore,
but do it just a little and try it. Bending/straightening will
eventually work-harden it, and possibly lead to a failure.
better to sneak up on the right amount than to overwork the
stem.
While many people use the extractor channel to provide backing to allow them to tension the extractor by bending, I use that only in the field. When
setting one up on the bench, I use the bump method. Why? Tempered
steel...true spring steel or good barstock, reacts better to a slight shock
when attempting to bend or straighten it, and lends a little sharper
"memory". I learned this when working at an automotive machine
shop early in my journeyman experience. I was taught to grind the
journals and throws on crankshafts, and learned much in that role.
Steel crankshafts have a little "spring" in them, and like all steel tend
to flex and warp after any cutting operation. Not really an issue on a
crankshaft meant for a grocery getter, but possibly critical in a high-performance or racing operation...which is what this shop was all about.
After grinding a racing crank, a dial indicator was mounted on the center main journal and checked for runout. It had to be held as close to none
as possible, with a tolerance of +/- .0005 inch. That's a HALF thousandth.
We didn't straighten the crankshafts with a hydraulic or arbor press. We
whacked'em on the counterweight with short-handled sledge hammer.
Now for the odd part. We had to hit the crank in the OPPOSITE direction
that we wanted it to move, and kept rotating the crank 180 degrees, using progressively lighter blows until we reached our goal. Ahhhh..The good ol'
days!
Cheers!
Tuner
have enough coffee down my neck to see when I read these.
Dominic, yes...You can "whack" on the Brown Hardcore,
but do it just a little and try it. Bending/straightening will
eventually work-harden it, and possibly lead to a failure.
better to sneak up on the right amount than to overwork the
stem.
While many people use the extractor channel to provide backing to allow them to tension the extractor by bending, I use that only in the field. When
setting one up on the bench, I use the bump method. Why? Tempered
steel...true spring steel or good barstock, reacts better to a slight shock
when attempting to bend or straighten it, and lends a little sharper
"memory". I learned this when working at an automotive machine
shop early in my journeyman experience. I was taught to grind the
journals and throws on crankshafts, and learned much in that role.
Steel crankshafts have a little "spring" in them, and like all steel tend
to flex and warp after any cutting operation. Not really an issue on a
crankshaft meant for a grocery getter, but possibly critical in a high-performance or racing operation...which is what this shop was all about.
After grinding a racing crank, a dial indicator was mounted on the center main journal and checked for runout. It had to be held as close to none
as possible, with a tolerance of +/- .0005 inch. That's a HALF thousandth.
We didn't straighten the crankshafts with a hydraulic or arbor press. We
whacked'em on the counterweight with short-handled sledge hammer.
Now for the odd part. We had to hit the crank in the OPPOSITE direction
that we wanted it to move, and kept rotating the crank 180 degrees, using progressively lighter blows until we reached our goal. Ahhhh..The good ol'
days!
Cheers!
Tuner
clubsoda22
January 1, 2004, 08:22 AM
My dads Series 70 Gold cup is on its third extractor. First two were colt factory. The second time it went i got him a wilson extractor. Very happy with it.
hnm201
January 1, 2004, 08:40 AM
Bluesbear asked
Which place is this Dominic? When I lived in Louisville I always used Gary Roman at Firearms Service Center for the stuff I couldn't do myself.
That's the place. I can also say a few good things about it though. They warrantee everything they sell, new and used, for 90 days and they really went out of their way to get a new gun that I purchased that was defective NIB fixed for me. If you get a chance to work and talk directly with Gary everything is fine. If you have to work or talk with the guy who works for him, the results often leave something to be desired. See my other posts about "Hi-Power Hammer Bite". Apparently anything in the Cylinder & Slide catalog, like the "No Bite" hi-power hammers is just out of their ken. If you say the word "Internet" in that shop people's eyes roll up in their head and they start foaming at the mouth. In short, I just think that they are just quite lacking in the customer service department. Except of course when you work with Gary himself. He listens to you when you speak.
The shop is no longer locacted in the old Arby's building on Hikes. It's now in the Eastland shopping center on Watterson Trail and B-town road and it has *expanded* dramatically. They have an in-door archery range. I may have to get into shooting bows this year.
Which place is this Dominic? When I lived in Louisville I always used Gary Roman at Firearms Service Center for the stuff I couldn't do myself.
That's the place. I can also say a few good things about it though. They warrantee everything they sell, new and used, for 90 days and they really went out of their way to get a new gun that I purchased that was defective NIB fixed for me. If you get a chance to work and talk directly with Gary everything is fine. If you have to work or talk with the guy who works for him, the results often leave something to be desired. See my other posts about "Hi-Power Hammer Bite". Apparently anything in the Cylinder & Slide catalog, like the "No Bite" hi-power hammers is just out of their ken. If you say the word "Internet" in that shop people's eyes roll up in their head and they start foaming at the mouth. In short, I just think that they are just quite lacking in the customer service department. Except of course when you work with Gary himself. He listens to you when you speak.
The shop is no longer locacted in the old Arby's building on Hikes. It's now in the Eastland shopping center on Watterson Trail and B-town road and it has *expanded* dramatically. They have an in-door archery range. I may have to get into shooting bows this year.
BluesBear
January 1, 2004, 08:50 AM
I always thought that old covered wagon shaped Arby's building was perfect for a gun shop. I remember when Gary first opened up there.
Gary himself has always been great to deal with but I agree with you on him having some employees that, unless you were in their little "clique", were a little lacking in the politeness department.
Gary himself has always been great to deal with but I agree with you on him having some employees that, unless you were in their little "clique", were a little lacking in the politeness department.
hnm201
January 4, 2004, 12:26 PM
alternately titled: extractor won't retain tension
A high-quality, properly adjusted extractor is quite possibly the most important component in a 1911. - from the WilsonCombat.com website
Ok, where we have last left my extractor story I had just "Tuned" the stock extractor in my Springfield Milspec 1911 and it was holding the round to the breech face. I took it to the range and put 200 rds through it. The first 150 rounds went off without failure but there was one problem - the brass was pinging off the slide, just to the rear/top of the ejection port, right on the "flare" or bevel. This left a lot brass ding marks there, which I later removed with some fine steel wool and breakfree clp.
The last 50 rounds produced two failures to eject. They were the typical failures that I had experienced earlier, a spent case failed to eject and stuck inline with the magazine.
I wish that I had stopped periodically to check the extractor tension while at the range. When I got home I disassembled to clean and discovered that the stock extractor had returned to it's "untension" state. It didn't come close to holding a case in tight to the breech face.
Ok, so at this point I'm impatient and frustrated. I drove up to Gary Roman's firearms service and bought an Ed Brown extractor. It's not a Hard Core, but is labeled "Match Grade". The package label features the instruction "tension to hold case to breech face." I took it home and tried to tension it myself. Try as I may and might I could not "tune" (bend) the extractor to a point where it would hold the case to the breech face. Seriously! I futzed with it for an hour. Somewhat annoyed with myself, I drove back up to Gary Roman's and spoke to Marc, the smith. He looked at the gun and said, "You don't need to do all that." He cycled a few rounds through the gun and said, "Did you put this oversized ejector in this gun?" What the hell? "Yeah, that's the problem." So, he wants to cut on it and I said, do your worst. He relieved the leading edge of the ejector slightly and dropped in an 18lb recoil spring. This seemed to improve the gun's ejection considerably and the brass did not ping off the slide. He fired a rapid string of 5 rounds in his test range and declared it fixed. The Ed Brown extractor had ZERO tension - basically just a straight as the stock extractor was. I paid the bill and headed to the range with 250 rds of 230gr ball, still skeptical.
The gun shot great at the range. It ejected 250 brass casings at a neat 90 degrees and not a single round pinged off the slide or my bald pate. No failures of any kind. The trigger has improved considerably, or I have. Then the rear sight fell off (again - but that's a different thread). As expected, the extractor has not miraculously tensioned or tuned itself. If you try to clip a round in behind the hook it falls right out.
I have the worst luck with purchasing new firearms and having to send them in for factory repair. I swear, I am cursed. Conversely, I am one of these people that very rarely experiences computer hardware failures (and I have a ton of computer hardware, but then I've always been picky about the electricity that I used to feed my hardware).
At the shop the gunsmith was quick to tell me that a "good 1911 will function without an extractor" and I have read as much in other posts by 1911 Tuner and others on THR and 1911forums. So, do I really need to so concerned with the tension on my extractor? I am already contemplating my next 1911 purchase and I have spent the morning reading the Internal vs Extractor debate threads. So far I am leaning towards a 70s series style ignition with an internal extractor but I am going to spend another few months before further investment in the platform.
That being said, I'm amazed at how easy it is to carry a 1911 GM. I thought it would be impossible.
A high-quality, properly adjusted extractor is quite possibly the most important component in a 1911. - from the WilsonCombat.com website
Ok, where we have last left my extractor story I had just "Tuned" the stock extractor in my Springfield Milspec 1911 and it was holding the round to the breech face. I took it to the range and put 200 rds through it. The first 150 rounds went off without failure but there was one problem - the brass was pinging off the slide, just to the rear/top of the ejection port, right on the "flare" or bevel. This left a lot brass ding marks there, which I later removed with some fine steel wool and breakfree clp.
The last 50 rounds produced two failures to eject. They were the typical failures that I had experienced earlier, a spent case failed to eject and stuck inline with the magazine.
I wish that I had stopped periodically to check the extractor tension while at the range. When I got home I disassembled to clean and discovered that the stock extractor had returned to it's "untension" state. It didn't come close to holding a case in tight to the breech face.
Ok, so at this point I'm impatient and frustrated. I drove up to Gary Roman's firearms service and bought an Ed Brown extractor. It's not a Hard Core, but is labeled "Match Grade". The package label features the instruction "tension to hold case to breech face." I took it home and tried to tension it myself. Try as I may and might I could not "tune" (bend) the extractor to a point where it would hold the case to the breech face. Seriously! I futzed with it for an hour. Somewhat annoyed with myself, I drove back up to Gary Roman's and spoke to Marc, the smith. He looked at the gun and said, "You don't need to do all that." He cycled a few rounds through the gun and said, "Did you put this oversized ejector in this gun?" What the hell? "Yeah, that's the problem." So, he wants to cut on it and I said, do your worst. He relieved the leading edge of the ejector slightly and dropped in an 18lb recoil spring. This seemed to improve the gun's ejection considerably and the brass did not ping off the slide. He fired a rapid string of 5 rounds in his test range and declared it fixed. The Ed Brown extractor had ZERO tension - basically just a straight as the stock extractor was. I paid the bill and headed to the range with 250 rds of 230gr ball, still skeptical.
The gun shot great at the range. It ejected 250 brass casings at a neat 90 degrees and not a single round pinged off the slide or my bald pate. No failures of any kind. The trigger has improved considerably, or I have. Then the rear sight fell off (again - but that's a different thread). As expected, the extractor has not miraculously tensioned or tuned itself. If you try to clip a round in behind the hook it falls right out.
I have the worst luck with purchasing new firearms and having to send them in for factory repair. I swear, I am cursed. Conversely, I am one of these people that very rarely experiences computer hardware failures (and I have a ton of computer hardware, but then I've always been picky about the electricity that I used to feed my hardware).
At the shop the gunsmith was quick to tell me that a "good 1911 will function without an extractor" and I have read as much in other posts by 1911 Tuner and others on THR and 1911forums. So, do I really need to so concerned with the tension on my extractor? I am already contemplating my next 1911 purchase and I have spent the morning reading the Internal vs Extractor debate threads. So far I am leaning towards a 70s series style ignition with an internal extractor but I am going to spend another few months before further investment in the platform.
That being said, I'm amazed at how easy it is to carry a 1911 GM. I thought it would be impossible.
1911Tuner
January 4, 2004, 01:16 PM
LOL...Buddy, you've had a time with this extractor issue.
You said:
I wish that I had stopped periodically to check the extractor tension while at the range. When I got home I disassembled to clean and discovered that the stock extractor had returned to it's "untension" state. It didn't come close to holding a case in tight to the breech face.
-----------------------------------
Springfield has recently had some bad extractors. Improper heat treatment
and tempering causes them to lose tension quickly, and/or the hook wears
and releases the grip on the rim. It's a vendor issue, as Springfield doesn't
make their own extractors.
On the Brown match grade being hard to tension and not seeming to require any. A couple of possibilities emerge here. The most obvious is
that the Brown is much stiffer than the original, and it won't flex enough to
allow the hook to slip off the rim. Evidently there's just enough side tension to keep the case on the breechface long enough to give the ejector a whack at it. Bad news is...it may not last.
While it's true that many 1911s will run without an extractor, there's a fine
line between working and leaving the case in the chamber. I'm convinced
that it's a matter of unlocking the barrel at just the right time...when chamber pressure has dropped off and lets the brass spring back so its
grip in the chamber is low, but still with enough residual pressure left to
blow it out. A nanosecond earlier or later, and it won't run.
As for setting the tension to the point described, in most pistols, it will
work perfectly with that set-up. With others it's a starting point. The
extractor has two tasks heaped on it. It must extract... in case the timing
isn't "just right" for extractorless function...and it must be loose enough to
allow reliable feeding, since the rim has to cam the hook open as it slips
up on the breechface. Too much tension will often stop it cold, just short
of full battery. Sometimes, after setting tension as described, it's necessary
to UN-bend it a little to allow feeding. I have one pistol like that, and it's
mainly a matter of tolerances stacking up. Slightly undersized channel and slightly oversized center pads on the extractor. A few thousandths can make a difference if the tolerances stack up in the same direction.
The way to get tension on yours without applying too much is to reduce the
diameter of the pad just behind the hook by about .005 inch to let the
hook move closer to the center of the breechface. Understand that doing that MAY require a slight bend to get it working agian. I apply the bend by laying the extractor between two vise jaws and bumping the inboard pad...or dog knot..with a brass hammer. Bump and try...repeat. Tempered steel usually reacts better to a bending/straightening operation by shocking it a little. Be sure to spread the vise jaws apart far enough to support the stem just behind the front pad (hook end) and just in front of the butt-end of the extractor.
Best advice right now is...If it's ain't broke, don't fix it. Shoot it a while to
see if anything changes or the malfunction acts like it's starting again.
The extended ejector was probably kicking the brass out too early, before the slide had slowed down, and the slide was smacking it in mid-air. The
length of the ejector times the ejection...The shape is PART of what determines the direction out the port. Other things come into play on that,
but the shape is about half the equation.
Keep us posted.
Tuner
You said:
I wish that I had stopped periodically to check the extractor tension while at the range. When I got home I disassembled to clean and discovered that the stock extractor had returned to it's "untension" state. It didn't come close to holding a case in tight to the breech face.
-----------------------------------
Springfield has recently had some bad extractors. Improper heat treatment
and tempering causes them to lose tension quickly, and/or the hook wears
and releases the grip on the rim. It's a vendor issue, as Springfield doesn't
make their own extractors.
On the Brown match grade being hard to tension and not seeming to require any. A couple of possibilities emerge here. The most obvious is
that the Brown is much stiffer than the original, and it won't flex enough to
allow the hook to slip off the rim. Evidently there's just enough side tension to keep the case on the breechface long enough to give the ejector a whack at it. Bad news is...it may not last.
While it's true that many 1911s will run without an extractor, there's a fine
line between working and leaving the case in the chamber. I'm convinced
that it's a matter of unlocking the barrel at just the right time...when chamber pressure has dropped off and lets the brass spring back so its
grip in the chamber is low, but still with enough residual pressure left to
blow it out. A nanosecond earlier or later, and it won't run.
As for setting the tension to the point described, in most pistols, it will
work perfectly with that set-up. With others it's a starting point. The
extractor has two tasks heaped on it. It must extract... in case the timing
isn't "just right" for extractorless function...and it must be loose enough to
allow reliable feeding, since the rim has to cam the hook open as it slips
up on the breechface. Too much tension will often stop it cold, just short
of full battery. Sometimes, after setting tension as described, it's necessary
to UN-bend it a little to allow feeding. I have one pistol like that, and it's
mainly a matter of tolerances stacking up. Slightly undersized channel and slightly oversized center pads on the extractor. A few thousandths can make a difference if the tolerances stack up in the same direction.
The way to get tension on yours without applying too much is to reduce the
diameter of the pad just behind the hook by about .005 inch to let the
hook move closer to the center of the breechface. Understand that doing that MAY require a slight bend to get it working agian. I apply the bend by laying the extractor between two vise jaws and bumping the inboard pad...or dog knot..with a brass hammer. Bump and try...repeat. Tempered steel usually reacts better to a bending/straightening operation by shocking it a little. Be sure to spread the vise jaws apart far enough to support the stem just behind the front pad (hook end) and just in front of the butt-end of the extractor.
Best advice right now is...If it's ain't broke, don't fix it. Shoot it a while to
see if anything changes or the malfunction acts like it's starting again.
The extended ejector was probably kicking the brass out too early, before the slide had slowed down, and the slide was smacking it in mid-air. The
length of the ejector times the ejection...The shape is PART of what determines the direction out the port. Other things come into play on that,
but the shape is about half the equation.
Keep us posted.
Tuner
Trisha
January 4, 2004, 01:16 PM
Absolutely outstanding, quality information - I just dropped in to say, "Thanks!"
It doesn't get better than this!
Trisha
It doesn't get better than this!
Trisha
1911Tuner
January 4, 2004, 01:20 PM
Trisha said:
I just dropped in to say, "Thanks!"
Mighty welcome Trisha...Jump in and get your feet wet!
I just dropped in to say, "Thanks!"
Mighty welcome Trisha...Jump in and get your feet wet!
happyguy
January 4, 2004, 01:31 PM
External or internal extractors? Both are proven designs, the key is in the execution.
For example, the Keltec P32, an external extractor design, places the extractor so low along the bore axis that only a corner of the extractor engages the rim of the cartridge. They took a good design and executed it poorly.
Colt tried MIM extractors and had many failures. They now use bar stock. But Caspian extractors are cast (if I'm not mistaken) and seem to hold up quite well.
Either one works if done right and neither will suffice if done poorly.
Regards,
Happyguy:D
For example, the Keltec P32, an external extractor design, places the extractor so low along the bore axis that only a corner of the extractor engages the rim of the cartridge. They took a good design and executed it poorly.
Colt tried MIM extractors and had many failures. They now use bar stock. But Caspian extractors are cast (if I'm not mistaken) and seem to hold up quite well.
Either one works if done right and neither will suffice if done poorly.
Regards,
Happyguy:D
hnm201
January 6, 2004, 01:35 AM
Ok the Ed Brown HardCore extractor showed up in the mail yesterday morning. Incidentally it is the EXACT shape and size of the stock Springfield MilSpec extractor, where as the Ed Brown Match Extractor has some recognizable differences from the stock extractor.
I tried tuning the HardCore extractor. No dice. Tuning, i.e. bending/whacking is not the problem. The problem is getting it into the extractor tunnel without having to completely straighten it out again. I believe that your suggestion about the diameter of the pad just below the hook is the issue. The pad completel fills the hole from which the hook emerges into the chamber. So, since the tolerance is so tight, the extractor will not hold or be able to be installed in its tuned shape and is incapable of flexing towards the center line. I've read other posts where folks have had to drill out the extractor tunnel to get the extractor to flex as needed. I wonder if that is what is going on here.
I called Springfield to see what they would say about their extractor. I said, "The stock extractor isn't holding tune, can you send me a new one?"
"No sir, you must send in your gun so that we can tune your extractor."
"But it didn't come with tension. It was straight as an arrow. Is there supposed to be enough tension on the extractor to hold a case to the breech face?"
"I don't know, I just know that if you have extractor problems you are supposed to send it in so we can tune it."
I elected to not send the gun to SA at this time. I took the gun with it' zero tension extractor to the range today and put 250 rds of assorted flavors of 230gr ball through it. Total round count is now 950. No failures of any kind, though it did seem that ejection was getting a little spastic at the end of the session. This gun has a 18.5lbs recoil spring in it. The gun is very accurate (more accurate than I am, of course) and I love the way it shoots. I am won over to the 1911 trigger and that 5" barrel's sight radius!
Ok, so far I've talked to one of the city's two listed gunsmiths and he says that the extractor does not need tension. The listed gunsmith won't return my calls. So what's my recourse? Frankly, I'm skeptical about sending this gun to SA. Mostly because I don't want to be without for 8 weeks. I will call tomorrow and try to get a tech on the phone.
1911 tuner, I think I understand everything that you are saying and I really appreciate you responding to my posts. When I follow your testing methods I can clearly see why extractor tension is important. I tell you what - the next time I buy a 1911 I am going with either a empty casing or a snap cap and asking the clerk if they can check the extractor tension for me before I buy. I am sure that will go over real well.
I tried tuning the HardCore extractor. No dice. Tuning, i.e. bending/whacking is not the problem. The problem is getting it into the extractor tunnel without having to completely straighten it out again. I believe that your suggestion about the diameter of the pad just below the hook is the issue. The pad completel fills the hole from which the hook emerges into the chamber. So, since the tolerance is so tight, the extractor will not hold or be able to be installed in its tuned shape and is incapable of flexing towards the center line. I've read other posts where folks have had to drill out the extractor tunnel to get the extractor to flex as needed. I wonder if that is what is going on here.
I called Springfield to see what they would say about their extractor. I said, "The stock extractor isn't holding tune, can you send me a new one?"
"No sir, you must send in your gun so that we can tune your extractor."
"But it didn't come with tension. It was straight as an arrow. Is there supposed to be enough tension on the extractor to hold a case to the breech face?"
"I don't know, I just know that if you have extractor problems you are supposed to send it in so we can tune it."
I elected to not send the gun to SA at this time. I took the gun with it' zero tension extractor to the range today and put 250 rds of assorted flavors of 230gr ball through it. Total round count is now 950. No failures of any kind, though it did seem that ejection was getting a little spastic at the end of the session. This gun has a 18.5lbs recoil spring in it. The gun is very accurate (more accurate than I am, of course) and I love the way it shoots. I am won over to the 1911 trigger and that 5" barrel's sight radius!
Ok, so far I've talked to one of the city's two listed gunsmiths and he says that the extractor does not need tension. The listed gunsmith won't return my calls. So what's my recourse? Frankly, I'm skeptical about sending this gun to SA. Mostly because I don't want to be without for 8 weeks. I will call tomorrow and try to get a tech on the phone.
1911 tuner, I think I understand everything that you are saying and I really appreciate you responding to my posts. When I follow your testing methods I can clearly see why extractor tension is important. I tell you what - the next time I buy a 1911 I am going with either a empty casing or a snap cap and asking the clerk if they can check the extractor tension for me before I buy. I am sure that will go over real well.
hnm201
January 6, 2004, 02:12 PM
Ok, I finally got through to a tech a Springfield: A very nice and helpful guy named Randy. His suggestion - file down the front pad to give the extractor room to bend/tension to the center line. Duh. I am off to buy tools now.
1911Tuner
January 6, 2004, 02:54 PM
...a post on January 4th. Here is a cut and paste:
The way to get tension on yours without applying too much is to reduce the
diameter of the pad just behind the hook by about .005 inch to let the
hook move closer to the center of the breechface.
Tech Randy's got a handle on it.
When you file that pad, be sure to reduce the whole radius or the hook
won't move toward the center. .005 inch reduction should do it, but you may need to take off a little more.
Cheers!
Tuner
The way to get tension on yours without applying too much is to reduce the
diameter of the pad just behind the hook by about .005 inch to let the
hook move closer to the center of the breechface.
Tech Randy's got a handle on it.
When you file that pad, be sure to reduce the whole radius or the hook
won't move toward the center. .005 inch reduction should do it, but you may need to take off a little more.
Cheers!
Tuner
hnm201
January 6, 2004, 06:05 PM
1911 tuner. - Yes, I caught that in your earlier post. I was just in denial that I was going to have to file or dremel anything. I went to Home Despot and bought an adjustable vise and some small files. I'll let you know how it goes. I went 1911 shopping again today. Some some nice looking guns. Found a used Springfield TRP for $950. But I am not buying anything else until I get this one working the way it should. I'm here to learn. Thanks again for all of your help.
1911Tuner
January 6, 2004, 09:40 PM
Howdy Dominic,
I wasn't doin' a "TOLD A SO" thing...I was callin' attention to
the dimensions.
:neener:
You can do the job with a 6-inch smooth-cut mill file. If you
don't know how to follow a radius with a file, the best way is
to cut a flat across the top, and cut flats on either side at about
a 30 degree angle. Blend the flats lightly when you've got the
dimensions.
You may need to reduce the middle inboard know a bit too.
Check to see if you can get the tension before that, though.
Keep us posted on this project.
Later on!
Tuner
I wasn't doin' a "TOLD A SO" thing...I was callin' attention to
the dimensions.
:neener:
You can do the job with a 6-inch smooth-cut mill file. If you
don't know how to follow a radius with a file, the best way is
to cut a flat across the top, and cut flats on either side at about
a 30 degree angle. Blend the flats lightly when you've got the
dimensions.
You may need to reduce the middle inboard know a bit too.
Check to see if you can get the tension before that, though.
Keep us posted on this project.
Later on!
Tuner
hnm201
January 7, 2004, 02:17 AM
I purchased a six file set of Nicholson "Hobby Files" and a small adjustable and plastic padded Brink & Cotton "Hobby Vise" from Home Despot.
Let me elaborate on my metal working skills and experience using files:
I have seen films depicting incarcerated men using files to cut through bars in their attempt to escape.
That being said I tried my best to follow 1911 Tuner's instructions for tuning a extractor that he posted earlier in this thread.
I do not own gauges or calipers or whatever you use to measure the dimensions of what you need to cut, but I would like to. If anyone knows where I can purchase them online, I would be most obliged. So, I just had to eyeball everything. I modified the stock extractor that shipped with the gun and used the unmodified Ed Brown Hardcore extractor (which was identical in dimensions, as far as I could tell, to the stock SA extractor). I would also like to know where to buy an India Stone. Is all this stuff just in the Brownell's catalog?
I think that my first attemp came out ok. Extractor now passes the tests that 1911 Tuner described. We'll see how it does at the range and see if it holds tension through 250 rds of CCI Blazer 230 gr Ball later this week.
Emboldened by the use of the file, I am now wondering if I can buy a jig and use the files to cut off the parts of th fram that I need to install a high ride beaver tail. I've got a lot of bite and bruise from the tang of the milspec grip safety. I know that this will require dropping in a new hammer too. Whoa, that's shooting pretty high for me.
Let me elaborate on my metal working skills and experience using files:
I have seen films depicting incarcerated men using files to cut through bars in their attempt to escape.
That being said I tried my best to follow 1911 Tuner's instructions for tuning a extractor that he posted earlier in this thread.
I do not own gauges or calipers or whatever you use to measure the dimensions of what you need to cut, but I would like to. If anyone knows where I can purchase them online, I would be most obliged. So, I just had to eyeball everything. I modified the stock extractor that shipped with the gun and used the unmodified Ed Brown Hardcore extractor (which was identical in dimensions, as far as I could tell, to the stock SA extractor). I would also like to know where to buy an India Stone. Is all this stuff just in the Brownell's catalog?
I think that my first attemp came out ok. Extractor now passes the tests that 1911 Tuner described. We'll see how it does at the range and see if it holds tension through 250 rds of CCI Blazer 230 gr Ball later this week.
Emboldened by the use of the file, I am now wondering if I can buy a jig and use the files to cut off the parts of th fram that I need to install a high ride beaver tail. I've got a lot of bite and bruise from the tang of the milspec grip safety. I know that this will require dropping in a new hammer too. Whoa, that's shooting pretty high for me.
1911Tuner
January 7, 2004, 03:57 AM
No calipers???? You ain't gonna make the Guild without a set of
dial calipers...:D
If you have a local gun shop that deals in reloading supplies, they've
either got one, or can get one...probably 40-5- bucks for a Dllon. I've got a hunch Dillon dial calipers are Mitutoyo. Pretty decent set of calipers for the money, and should last a long time...Just don't drop'em.
Files and stones are available through Brownells, or you can do like I do
and get'em through a machine tool supply jobber. While you're there,
have one of the guys demonstrate how to file to a radius. Easy to do, but
hard to describe in print. I do the mods on extractor pads by rolling it
between my thumb and finger against a sanding drum on a Dremel, and
finish it (purely cosmetic) on a craytex wheel.
Hope that extractor takes care of bidness for ya.
-EDIT-WHoops..Almost forgot. (Coffee finally kicked in) Dominic asked:
Emboldened by the use of the file, I am now wondering if I can buy a jig and use the files to cut off the parts of th fram that I need to install a high ride beaver tail.
Brownells has'em. The Springfield frame has a .220 tang radius, as opposed to Colt's .250, and will require the appropriate grip safety.
Cheers!
TUner
dial calipers...:D
If you have a local gun shop that deals in reloading supplies, they've
either got one, or can get one...probably 40-5- bucks for a Dllon. I've got a hunch Dillon dial calipers are Mitutoyo. Pretty decent set of calipers for the money, and should last a long time...Just don't drop'em.
Files and stones are available through Brownells, or you can do like I do
and get'em through a machine tool supply jobber. While you're there,
have one of the guys demonstrate how to file to a radius. Easy to do, but
hard to describe in print. I do the mods on extractor pads by rolling it
between my thumb and finger against a sanding drum on a Dremel, and
finish it (purely cosmetic) on a craytex wheel.
Hope that extractor takes care of bidness for ya.
-EDIT-WHoops..Almost forgot. (Coffee finally kicked in) Dominic asked:
Emboldened by the use of the file, I am now wondering if I can buy a jig and use the files to cut off the parts of th fram that I need to install a high ride beaver tail.
Brownells has'em. The Springfield frame has a .220 tang radius, as opposed to Colt's .250, and will require the appropriate grip safety.
Cheers!
TUner
Monkeyleg
January 12, 2004, 06:52 PM
1911Tuner, I tried your method of testing the extractor by pulling the slide back and seeing if the round ejects or falls into the mag well. On all three of my Kimbers the rounds fell into the mag well. Two of these pistols have seen a lot of use and rarely malfunction. By rarely, I mean one feeding problem every three or four hundred rounds using my own reloads.
So, should I be concerned?
BTW, thanks for all of the info you post here. If nothing else, you've saved THR members hundreds of dollars in long-distance calls to the various 1911 manufacturers' customer service centers!
So, should I be concerned?
BTW, thanks for all of the info you post here. If nothing else, you've saved THR members hundreds of dollars in long-distance calls to the various 1911 manufacturers' customer service centers!
hnm201
January 13, 2004, 12:57 AM
Monkeyleg, 1911 tuner et al,
Well, I finally got out to test my springfield milspec with my home-tuned extractor. $150 rds with no malfunctions except that after round ~100 the gun suddenly developed an allergy to loading the first round off a Wilson Combat 8rnder loaded with 8 rounds. It would start to feed but wouldn't go all the way into battery. I would with a nudge or occasionally needed a sharp slap. After three of these malfunctions I loaded 7 rds in the mags and it didn't appear again. So I am chalking that up to the mags.
- The gun now chucks brass like a brass chucking machine. Before I tuned the extractor, the brass ejected in an inconsistent pattern. Now it puts them all in the same or very close to same trajectory. I fired about 5 mags spread through the session where I held the gun on target and just watched the brass eject.
- After the 150 rounds, the extractor still held the round to the breech face.
The gun is now at the local smith's to have the USGI grip saftey tang dehorned and to have the grip saftey and extractor re-parkerized. When it gets back, it's going to my full time carry piece until August.
I guess I fixed something that wasn't broke. As I mentioned previously, the gun was functioning but brass wasn't ejecting like some other pistols that I own. So I decided to ignore the fact that one local smith told me that extractor tension is completely useless to the function of the 1911 (I won't tell you about what he did to a friend's gun, a friend that has spent literally tens of thousands of dollars in his shop) and research it and make an informed decision myself. 1911 tuners posts and some reading that I have done offline have convinced me that I want to make sure that the extractor is tuned in my 1911.
As for kimbers functioning without extractor tension: I'm not surprised. My springer will cycle, about half the time, if I removed the extractor from the gun. See 1911 Tuner's previous comments on this subject. I guess extractor tension isn't strictly necessary but I am convinced that it's necessary to ensure reliable function.
Why do manufacturers ship their guns with no extractor tension, or low quality internal extractors? There are lots of opinions on this subject. Most feel that the gun manufacturers are cutting corners. I am sure that fitting an extractor to the gun with proper tension would add cost.
Today I took a dummy round (real brass & fmj bullet, case weighted, but with no primer or powder) to a store with a wide 1911 selection. They weren't happy at first about me wanting to put the dummy round in the guns to test the extractor tension. I tried several NIB Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Armscor, RIA or Dan Wesson internal extractor models in the store and none of them had enough tension on the extractor to pass 1911 Tuner's tests above. This activity started up a somewhat lively conversation with the store's staff and a few of their other customers. Two of the clerks were completely nonplussed by the discussion, one saying "If you want a pistol that doesn't need tuning, get a Glock." Another was strongly in favor of a tuned extractor, saying "That's why I'd only buy and STI, a Wilson or an Ed Brown". They had an Ed Brown CQB, NIB, in the case but I had already worn out my welcome at that point. When I left a few of the customers were still telling their favorite 1911 reliability and smithing stories. I'll wait a week or two and go back there and try thier STIs and thier Ed Browns.
Well, I finally got out to test my springfield milspec with my home-tuned extractor. $150 rds with no malfunctions except that after round ~100 the gun suddenly developed an allergy to loading the first round off a Wilson Combat 8rnder loaded with 8 rounds. It would start to feed but wouldn't go all the way into battery. I would with a nudge or occasionally needed a sharp slap. After three of these malfunctions I loaded 7 rds in the mags and it didn't appear again. So I am chalking that up to the mags.
- The gun now chucks brass like a brass chucking machine. Before I tuned the extractor, the brass ejected in an inconsistent pattern. Now it puts them all in the same or very close to same trajectory. I fired about 5 mags spread through the session where I held the gun on target and just watched the brass eject.
- After the 150 rounds, the extractor still held the round to the breech face.
The gun is now at the local smith's to have the USGI grip saftey tang dehorned and to have the grip saftey and extractor re-parkerized. When it gets back, it's going to my full time carry piece until August.
I guess I fixed something that wasn't broke. As I mentioned previously, the gun was functioning but brass wasn't ejecting like some other pistols that I own. So I decided to ignore the fact that one local smith told me that extractor tension is completely useless to the function of the 1911 (I won't tell you about what he did to a friend's gun, a friend that has spent literally tens of thousands of dollars in his shop) and research it and make an informed decision myself. 1911 tuners posts and some reading that I have done offline have convinced me that I want to make sure that the extractor is tuned in my 1911.
As for kimbers functioning without extractor tension: I'm not surprised. My springer will cycle, about half the time, if I removed the extractor from the gun. See 1911 Tuner's previous comments on this subject. I guess extractor tension isn't strictly necessary but I am convinced that it's necessary to ensure reliable function.
Why do manufacturers ship their guns with no extractor tension, or low quality internal extractors? There are lots of opinions on this subject. Most feel that the gun manufacturers are cutting corners. I am sure that fitting an extractor to the gun with proper tension would add cost.
Today I took a dummy round (real brass & fmj bullet, case weighted, but with no primer or powder) to a store with a wide 1911 selection. They weren't happy at first about me wanting to put the dummy round in the guns to test the extractor tension. I tried several NIB Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Armscor, RIA or Dan Wesson internal extractor models in the store and none of them had enough tension on the extractor to pass 1911 Tuner's tests above. This activity started up a somewhat lively conversation with the store's staff and a few of their other customers. Two of the clerks were completely nonplussed by the discussion, one saying "If you want a pistol that doesn't need tuning, get a Glock." Another was strongly in favor of a tuned extractor, saying "That's why I'd only buy and STI, a Wilson or an Ed Brown". They had an Ed Brown CQB, NIB, in the case but I had already worn out my welcome at that point. When I left a few of the customers were still telling their favorite 1911 reliability and smithing stories. I'll wait a week or two and go back there and try thier STIs and thier Ed Browns.
hnm201
January 13, 2004, 01:00 AM
My mitutoyo calipers (ordered on eBay) arrived today. I also have some tools on order from Midway, along with a bunch of OEM 7rd mags.
Kestrel
January 13, 2004, 02:56 AM
Tuner - A big thanks to you for all your willingness to help on this forum. You're a big asset.
Monkeyleg - just a comment on your Kimber. Not trying to be a smart aleck or anything, but a failure rate of one round in 300-400 rounds is not "rarely". To me that's high. Maybe you already know that and maybe it's just the dimensions of your reloads. Do you have the same failure rate with factory ammo?
Steve
Monkeyleg - just a comment on your Kimber. Not trying to be a smart aleck or anything, but a failure rate of one round in 300-400 rounds is not "rarely". To me that's high. Maybe you already know that and maybe it's just the dimensions of your reloads. Do you have the same failure rate with factory ammo?
Steve
1911Tuner
January 13, 2004, 05:59 AM
Dominic said:
I guess extractor tension isn't strictly necessary but I am convinced that it's necessary to ensure reliable function.
It is on many guns. Some are timed at just the right point that they don't,
but more aren't. Best to err on the side of caution and set the tension.
---------------------------------------------
I am sure that fitting an extractor to the gun with proper tension would add cost.
Bingo.
-----------------------------------------
one saying "If you want a pistol that doesn't need tuning, get a Glock."
Oh yeah! There has never been a Glock that failed to extract. Ever!:rolleyes:
-------------------------------------
one local smith told me that extractor tension is completely useless to the function of the 1911 (I won't tell you about what he did to a friend's gun, a friend that has spent literally tens of thousands of dollars in his shop)
Yeah...There are a lotta those around. There's one in this area that I follow
a lot. His trigger work goes south in about 5,000 rounds, and hammers start to follow the slide. The guy who told you that extractor tension was useless probably saw a few run without one, and assumed that they're
ALL able to do it. Not so. Everything has to be just right, and I'm not too
sure that if one does it, that it's functioning correctly. I do know that if
I'm going to be far from home, I want one with me that will do it.
-----------------------------------------
with 8 rounds. It would start to feed but wouldn't go all the way into battery. I would with a nudge or occasionally needed a sharp slap. After three of these malfunctions I loaded 7 rds in the mags and it didn't appear again. So I am chalking that up to the mags.
That's a magazine issue. The problem is that the upward tension on the
follower is higher at the rear, and lower at the front. The problem with
the Wilson-Rogers follower/spring design is that it doesn't give much leeway for tuning the spring at the front of the top loop to strike a balance. If you'll check, you'll probably find some movement downward at the front of the follower with the magazine empty. Bending the top loop of the spring just slightly upward may help. Just a little. Don't stretch the spring. That will help for a short time, but the problem will return quickly, and probably worse than it was.
-------------------------------------------
Steve said:
Tuner - A big thanks to you for all your willingness to help on this forum. You're a big asset.
Mighty welcome Steve. Happy to help
---------------------------------------------
Monkeyleg - just a comment on your Kimber. Not trying to be a smart aleck or anything, but a failure rate of one round in 300-400 rounds is not "rarely". To me that's high.
I have to agree, and sorry for not addressing it. Duty called, and in my haste, I forgot the point.
As stated, reloads often fail for no other reason than being out-of-spec.
if he doesn't have the same failure rate with his carry ammo, then it's a
non-issue. But if the malfunction is there with his carry ammo, it needs to be looked into. Monkeyleg, describe the malfunction exactly, and under what circumstances.
Standin' by...
Tuner
---------------------------------------
I guess extractor tension isn't strictly necessary but I am convinced that it's necessary to ensure reliable function.
It is on many guns. Some are timed at just the right point that they don't,
but more aren't. Best to err on the side of caution and set the tension.
---------------------------------------------
I am sure that fitting an extractor to the gun with proper tension would add cost.
Bingo.
-----------------------------------------
one saying "If you want a pistol that doesn't need tuning, get a Glock."
Oh yeah! There has never been a Glock that failed to extract. Ever!:rolleyes:
-------------------------------------
one local smith told me that extractor tension is completely useless to the function of the 1911 (I won't tell you about what he did to a friend's gun, a friend that has spent literally tens of thousands of dollars in his shop)
Yeah...There are a lotta those around. There's one in this area that I follow
a lot. His trigger work goes south in about 5,000 rounds, and hammers start to follow the slide. The guy who told you that extractor tension was useless probably saw a few run without one, and assumed that they're
ALL able to do it. Not so. Everything has to be just right, and I'm not too
sure that if one does it, that it's functioning correctly. I do know that if
I'm going to be far from home, I want one with me that will do it.
-----------------------------------------
with 8 rounds. It would start to feed but wouldn't go all the way into battery. I would with a nudge or occasionally needed a sharp slap. After three of these malfunctions I loaded 7 rds in the mags and it didn't appear again. So I am chalking that up to the mags.
That's a magazine issue. The problem is that the upward tension on the
follower is higher at the rear, and lower at the front. The problem with
the Wilson-Rogers follower/spring design is that it doesn't give much leeway for tuning the spring at the front of the top loop to strike a balance. If you'll check, you'll probably find some movement downward at the front of the follower with the magazine empty. Bending the top loop of the spring just slightly upward may help. Just a little. Don't stretch the spring. That will help for a short time, but the problem will return quickly, and probably worse than it was.
-------------------------------------------
Steve said:
Tuner - A big thanks to you for all your willingness to help on this forum. You're a big asset.
Mighty welcome Steve. Happy to help
---------------------------------------------
Monkeyleg - just a comment on your Kimber. Not trying to be a smart aleck or anything, but a failure rate of one round in 300-400 rounds is not "rarely". To me that's high.
I have to agree, and sorry for not addressing it. Duty called, and in my haste, I forgot the point.
As stated, reloads often fail for no other reason than being out-of-spec.
if he doesn't have the same failure rate with his carry ammo, then it's a
non-issue. But if the malfunction is there with his carry ammo, it needs to be looked into. Monkeyleg, describe the malfunction exactly, and under what circumstances.
Standin' by...
Tuner
---------------------------------------
Monkeyleg
January 13, 2004, 07:02 PM
The malfunctions are generally from improper crimping or not crimping a case, so that the slide doesn't go completely into battery. I do my crimping as a separate step, and once in awhile I'll accidentally skip a cartridge.
Last year, while doing the range part of the LFI course, my Pro Carry started acting up, not feeding properly. It was around 90 degrees, we were going through tons of ammo, and I had only oiled the rails, not greased them. A bit of Tetra lube solved that problem.
Due to financial constraints it's been quite some time since I've shot factory ammo through any of them. I'll try to do so in the next few days and see if there are any problems.
Last year, while doing the range part of the LFI course, my Pro Carry started acting up, not feeding properly. It was around 90 degrees, we were going through tons of ammo, and I had only oiled the rails, not greased them. A bit of Tetra lube solved that problem.
Due to financial constraints it's been quite some time since I've shot factory ammo through any of them. I'll try to do so in the next few days and see if there are any problems.
1911Tuner
January 13, 2004, 07:32 PM
Monkeyleg said:
Last year, while doing the range part of the LFI course, my Pro Carry started acting up, not feeding properly. It was around 90 degrees, we were going through tons of ammo, and I had only oiled the rails, not greased them. A bit of Tetra lube solved that problem.
Want to solve that problem forever and not have to depend on trick lubes?
Here's how...
Get some CLP Breakfree and a small tub of J&B Bore Cleaner. Put a tablespoon full of the CLP in a small cup. Add bore cleaner to it and mix
until you get a paste that will just start to sag off the tip of a screwdriver,
but not thin enough to drip off.
Coat the frame rails, locking lugs, lower lug and slidestop pin, link, the
sides of the chamber area of the barrel, inside the barrel bushing, and
a dab on the disconnector/cocking rail.
Remove the recoil system...spring, plug, and guide rod. Hand-cycle the
slide about 125-200 times. Rinse the slurry out with Gunk Carb medic,
use just a small amount in the rails for a lube, and use CLP to lube the rest of the parts where you normally use oil. Go shoot the gun about 50 times, and clean it out again when you finish. Oil and reassemble it. It'll feel like buttered glass, and shooting it hot won't be an issue any more.
Try it. Betcha you'll like it.;)
Cheerios! (Honey-Nut)
Tuner
Last year, while doing the range part of the LFI course, my Pro Carry started acting up, not feeding properly. It was around 90 degrees, we were going through tons of ammo, and I had only oiled the rails, not greased them. A bit of Tetra lube solved that problem.
Want to solve that problem forever and not have to depend on trick lubes?
Here's how...
Get some CLP Breakfree and a small tub of J&B Bore Cleaner. Put a tablespoon full of the CLP in a small cup. Add bore cleaner to it and mix
until you get a paste that will just start to sag off the tip of a screwdriver,
but not thin enough to drip off.
Coat the frame rails, locking lugs, lower lug and slidestop pin, link, the
sides of the chamber area of the barrel, inside the barrel bushing, and
a dab on the disconnector/cocking rail.
Remove the recoil system...spring, plug, and guide rod. Hand-cycle the
slide about 125-200 times. Rinse the slurry out with Gunk Carb medic,
use just a small amount in the rails for a lube, and use CLP to lube the rest of the parts where you normally use oil. Go shoot the gun about 50 times, and clean it out again when you finish. Oil and reassemble it. It'll feel like buttered glass, and shooting it hot won't be an issue any more.
Try it. Betcha you'll like it.;)
Cheerios! (Honey-Nut)
Tuner
hnm201
January 13, 2004, 08:25 PM
Tuner,
Is your CLP/JB mix recommended for guns with Parkerized finishes? if so, I might try it.
This is a great thread! Tuner, I may have to spend some time going through your THR posts and compiling a "1911 Tuner Faq". Sorry, but I love organizing data. I'll email your a copy and will only make it available to others (post it on a website) at your discretion and would otherwise just keep it for my own purposes.
Speaking of Extractors....look at the inside back page of Shotgun News!
http://dombosco.home.insightbb.com/para-1.jpg
closeup of the miracle extractor:
http://dombosco.home.insightbb.com/para-2.jpg
Begin Para's advert
... is the 21 st century incarnation of the world's greatest pistol. Now, Para's patent pending Power Extractor eliminates the weakest link in the original design of this great pistol. The new Para Power Extractor is a massive claw that gives you 50 percent more contact with the rim of the .45 ACP case for controlled feeding of the cartridge from the magazine into the chamber and positive extraction for infallible ejection of the empty case.
The Power Extractor's pivoting claw is always under proper tension, shot after shot. Only from the innovative genius of Para comes a massive internal extractor that enhances the performance of the 1911, while maintaining the matchless esthetics of this classic design.
Make sure that you're getting the ultimate 1911 pistol; look for the new Para Power Extractor" mark on the slide of the 1911 at your favorite dealer.
Everybody's always looking for an angle! Don't like the LOOK of external extractors! Buy our SUPER INTERNAL extractor! LOL
Is your CLP/JB mix recommended for guns with Parkerized finishes? if so, I might try it.
This is a great thread! Tuner, I may have to spend some time going through your THR posts and compiling a "1911 Tuner Faq". Sorry, but I love organizing data. I'll email your a copy and will only make it available to others (post it on a website) at your discretion and would otherwise just keep it for my own purposes.
Speaking of Extractors....look at the inside back page of Shotgun News!
http://dombosco.home.insightbb.com/para-1.jpg
closeup of the miracle extractor:
http://dombosco.home.insightbb.com/para-2.jpg
Begin Para's advert
... is the 21 st century incarnation of the world's greatest pistol. Now, Para's patent pending Power Extractor eliminates the weakest link in the original design of this great pistol. The new Para Power Extractor is a massive claw that gives you 50 percent more contact with the rim of the .45 ACP case for controlled feeding of the cartridge from the magazine into the chamber and positive extraction for infallible ejection of the empty case.
The Power Extractor's pivoting claw is always under proper tension, shot after shot. Only from the innovative genius of Para comes a massive internal extractor that enhances the performance of the 1911, while maintaining the matchless esthetics of this classic design.
Make sure that you're getting the ultimate 1911 pistol; look for the new Para Power Extractor" mark on the slide of the 1911 at your favorite dealer.
Everybody's always looking for an angle! Don't like the LOOK of external extractors! Buy our SUPER INTERNAL extractor! LOL
tex_n_cal
January 14, 2004, 01:46 AM
that small extractor is also cheaper to machine than the original design, and the difference I guarantee you is more than .02!
True Spring Steels, like 1075, 1095, 6150, or even 4340 are tough to machine. When heat treated after machining, some distortion occurs and truing will be required. Much better if you can just take Pre-hardened low alloy steel, like 4130 and just cut it and be done.
It's even cheaper yet if you MIM it, but Mim extractors have been notoriously unreliable.
Colt has publically stated they have gone back to barstock. What alloy and how hard I don't know.
It ain't broke and don't need fixing.:neener:
True Spring Steels, like 1075, 1095, 6150, or even 4340 are tough to machine. When heat treated after machining, some distortion occurs and truing will be required. Much better if you can just take Pre-hardened low alloy steel, like 4130 and just cut it and be done.
It's even cheaper yet if you MIM it, but Mim extractors have been notoriously unreliable.
Colt has publically stated they have gone back to barstock. What alloy and how hard I don't know.
It ain't broke and don't need fixing.:neener:
1911Tuner
January 14, 2004, 06:04 AM
Is your CLP/JB mix recommended for guns with Parkerized finishes? if so, I might try it.
Sure. It'll polish any metal to metal surfaces that it's used on. Since
the areas won't be visible anyway, use it. The slurry doesn't remove
enough metal to create any more clearance. It mainly hits the high spots and polishes.
Thanks for the good words about these posts. Since it's all out here on a
public forum, and none of it is copyright protected, share it with anybody that you want to. Most of it is little things that I've either picked up from
somebody else along the way, or just the result of trial and error that worked. You can bet dollars to donut holes that none of it is new.
On that Para extractor...:rolleyes: It seems to me that somebody is
always trying to "improve" something that, if they'd just stick to the
original design parameters instead of complicating things unnecessarily,
they'd find that it would work just fine. In other words, they've reinvented
the wheel. That extractor may well work perfectly...but the point escapes me. It would seem that the only advantage is to keep from having to
tune it before installing it...A labor-saving device maybe...Likely an
expensive one at that.
Cheers!
Tuner
Sure. It'll polish any metal to metal surfaces that it's used on. Since
the areas won't be visible anyway, use it. The slurry doesn't remove
enough metal to create any more clearance. It mainly hits the high spots and polishes.
Thanks for the good words about these posts. Since it's all out here on a
public forum, and none of it is copyright protected, share it with anybody that you want to. Most of it is little things that I've either picked up from
somebody else along the way, or just the result of trial and error that worked. You can bet dollars to donut holes that none of it is new.
On that Para extractor...:rolleyes: It seems to me that somebody is
always trying to "improve" something that, if they'd just stick to the
original design parameters instead of complicating things unnecessarily,
they'd find that it would work just fine. In other words, they've reinvented
the wheel. That extractor may well work perfectly...but the point escapes me. It would seem that the only advantage is to keep from having to
tune it before installing it...A labor-saving device maybe...Likely an
expensive one at that.
Cheers!
Tuner
BluesBear
January 14, 2004, 06:37 AM
When something is advertised as "New & Improved" it usually turns out to be just one or the other if either.
1911Tuner
January 14, 2004, 06:51 AM
BluesBear said:
When something is advertised as "New & Improved" it usually turns out to be just one or the other if either.
Wish I'd said that...:D :cool:
When something is advertised as "New & Improved" it usually turns out to be just one or the other if either.
Wish I'd said that...:D :cool:
BluesBear
January 14, 2004, 06:54 AM
It just popped into my noggin, Tuner.
Feel free to use it anytime. ;)
Feel free to use it anytime. ;)
LEGHORN
January 14, 2004, 09:18 AM
On the matter of the new extractor from Para, it seems to me that almost everyone would welcome an extractor that never has to be tuned to function properly while not detracting from the 1911 design. It is my understanding that the entry hole in the back of the slide is the same size as it always has been and there is no way you can tell the difference from looking at this new slide from the outside. Given that nothing can ever be designed from the outset to be 100% and even though the 1911 is as close as you get, I believe improvements that can prove themselves to work better than the weaker links in any design, should be a welcome advancement.
hnm201
January 14, 2004, 09:21 AM
bluesbear wrote
When something is advertised as "New & Improved" it usually turns out to be just one or the other if either.
Right up there with "Good....Cheap....Fast. Pick any two."
When something is advertised as "New & Improved" it usually turns out to be just one or the other if either.
Right up there with "Good....Cheap....Fast. Pick any two."
1911Tuner
January 14, 2004, 09:49 AM
Leghorn said:
almost everyone would welcome an extractor that never has to be tuned to function properly while not detracting from the 1911 design.
We sure would...except that nothing is ever ideal. In an ideal world, everything would be in-spec without tolerances being required. Since
we know that there is no such thing as a perfect dimension, those tolerances are needed. In order for one part or accessory to work in
all pistols...be that a magazine, an extractor, hammer, sear, etc...all
pistols and all parts would have to be not only in-spec, but exactly the same. This is why we have glowing reports of Brand X magazine being
the best there is, and another report on that same magazine in a different pistol being worthless.
A part that doesn't lend itself to adjustment will eventually run into a pistol that won't respond to it. As long as you have an extractor that can be bent, straightened, shaped, and modified, you can usually get it to work.
The essence of fine-tuning is the ability to adjust things and make them work.
It seems to me that if the manufacturers would simply stop trying to outsmart ol' John Moses and stick to his specifications on the extractor, that
most of the problems we see today would disappear, and the part would
still be cheaper to make than this one or the AFTEC...even if they had to
train their personnel to pre-set the tension before shipping.
Just my nickel's worth...YMMV
Tuner
almost everyone would welcome an extractor that never has to be tuned to function properly while not detracting from the 1911 design.
We sure would...except that nothing is ever ideal. In an ideal world, everything would be in-spec without tolerances being required. Since
we know that there is no such thing as a perfect dimension, those tolerances are needed. In order for one part or accessory to work in
all pistols...be that a magazine, an extractor, hammer, sear, etc...all
pistols and all parts would have to be not only in-spec, but exactly the same. This is why we have glowing reports of Brand X magazine being
the best there is, and another report on that same magazine in a different pistol being worthless.
A part that doesn't lend itself to adjustment will eventually run into a pistol that won't respond to it. As long as you have an extractor that can be bent, straightened, shaped, and modified, you can usually get it to work.
The essence of fine-tuning is the ability to adjust things and make them work.
It seems to me that if the manufacturers would simply stop trying to outsmart ol' John Moses and stick to his specifications on the extractor, that
most of the problems we see today would disappear, and the part would
still be cheaper to make than this one or the AFTEC...even if they had to
train their personnel to pre-set the tension before shipping.
Just my nickel's worth...YMMV
Tuner
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