[Don Galt]

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/11/07/article_kubby.htm

At first glance it looks like this research was done out of the country... could it be that its just too difficult to do science inside the country for substances that are not politically correct?

[jimpeel]

I watched a program on PBS many years ago (Frontline I think) that was about the Burmese Golden Triangle. They told of a time, about 1972, when Peter Bourne was the head of the DEA. A Burmese Drug Warlord contacted Bourne and told him that he would sell all of his Heroin and Opium to the United States for 13 million dollars a year. This amount represented one-third of the world's supply of Heroin.

Bourne refused and stated that he would "not do business with a drug warlord". Instead, he and the DEA encouraged the Burmese government to track him down. For their cooperation in this venture, the DEA gave the Burmese government three -- count 'em -- THREE fixed wing aircraft to patrol the jungle with.

Another warlord, who was not as amenable to making deals for his goods, took over and the trade went on unabated.

Now, if you are thinking to yourself "Fixed wing aircraft to patrol jungle canopy?????" you would be quite correct in being confused.

Within the past ten years another warlord made a similar offer, for twenty-six million dollars, to the DEA and was similarly turned down.

If they could simply buy up the drugs for twenty-six million per year, what would the DEA need with that multi-billion dollar budget and all of those minions?

[rock jock]

Don't believe everything you read.

[Don Galt]

Actually, marijuana has a variety of proven medical uses. It cuts down nausea, which is useful for cancer patients on chemotherapy. It kills migraine headaches for some people. IT reduces glaucoma. It also has positive effects on depression. All of these are objective facts, meeting the level of repeatability to be accepted by medical doctors and medical journals.

I don't believe everything I read. I live in a world of facts, evidence, reason and logic.

You, on the other hand, seem to live in a world where everything that doesn't agree with your religious ideology is false.

Try making an argument sometime, instead of your drive-by snotty comments. You might learn something.

[Don Galt]

Yep, the drug war is all about control. Most of what government is has only one purpose-- control. Control to defend and extend power.

The really sad thing is that so much of the populace chooses to believe absurd falsehoods -- such as the necessity of the drug war-- instead of using reason.

The government indoctrination centers that kids are sent to have a big part of that level of control.

When you can play with a mans fears, you can manipulate him into endorsing his own murder.

[Destructo6]

The really sad thing is that so much of the populace chooses to believe absurd falsehoods -- such as the necessity of the drug war
So who's buying the drugs?

BTW, Guzman doesn't seem to advocate sparking up a doobie for general cancer prophylaxis. He seems to be interested in more uses for derrivatives, such as Cesarmet, which he cites.

What's the difference between paying off drug kingpins to not export and paying off Barbary Pirates?

[Thumper]

Try making an argument sometime, instead of your drive-by snotty comments. You might learn something.

Hey Don...the counterculture potheads I know seem much less angry than you...you sure your dealer isn't selling you some bad stuff?

:D

[Oracle]

Thumper,

Your comment is really in keeping with the spirit of the High Road, isn't it?

We talk about inanimate objects not being able to harm anyone, how people should be able to do as they wish with their private property, how excessive government regulation is wrong - all when it's applied to guns. When it's applied to something that you want to ban, suddenly all those arguments disappear. You're no better than the people at the Brady Campaign and HCI, your arguments are almost all the same.

Remember, it's for the children.

[Nightfall]

It's not the first time irrational views toward something has hindered progress in science. Pot is just a single victim in a long line.

[Sean Smith]

Try making an argument sometime, instead of your drive-by snotty comments.

Interesting statement, coming from someone who tosses around unfounded "bigot" (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45187&perpage=25&highlight=personal%20attacks&pagenumber=4) epithets when someone disputes his arguments. :rolleyes:

[Coronach]

Everyone involved here needs to take a hit or sip of your relaxing recreational drug of choice, or just go to your Happy Place, and knock off the personal attacks. Got it?

Thank you,
Coronach

[Don Galt]

Back on topic. Clearly pot has medicinal use (Even if it doesn't cure cancer.)

Can anyone make an argument that does not rely on religion, for its prohibition?

One that is consistent with the RKBA, and the constitution?

Cause if you say "sometimes people are hurt by drugs" then you're in conflict with the RKBA-- cause soemtimes people are hurt by ADs, old ammo, ricochets, etc.

And the constitution does not give the government the power to prevent people from hurting themselves.

Drugs do not cause crime-- it is drug prohibition, that takes constitutionally protected acctivities and calls them crime that causes crime. It is prohibition that drives prices up to make something that would be cheap and not worth fighting for, worth fighting for.

A small percentage of the population gets addicted to drugs, and they still get addicted to them with prohibition.

I can find no purpose that prohibition serves-- except as an excuse for asset siezure, militarization of the police, and increased control over the populace. All of this serves the goal of eventually criminalizing the RKBA. Like most libertys, when you don't support this one, you undermine your support for the RKBA.

Actually, they also come from the same base right-- self ownerhsip. IF you own your body, you have the right to defend it. IF you own it, you have the right to self-medicate it. IF you don't have the right to self medicate-- then they are saying you don't really own it.

IF you don't own your body, then you don't have the right to defend it, and you don't have the right to keep arms to defend it.

You support the drug war and you end up opposing the RKBA. They are the same fundamental right.

Does anyone have a counter argument?

[lycanthrope]

How about the fact that smoking pot produces several times the carcinogens that cigarettes have and, therefore, causes cancer. Perhaps the War on Drugs monies could then be funnelled into the increased health care need....... Who knows, it may be cheaper........maybe.

Which would turn out to be a greater threat to the nations health and/or economy?

I could say that THC does alleviate the common definition of depression in the short term as the drug does induce apathy, but as a psychotherapist I have problems with the claim that a depressant that induces apathy to help the CLINICAL symptoms of depression (where apathy is a symptom). Any study that isn't endorsed by the American Medical Assoc. or American Psychological Assoc. isn't to be trusted. There is a TON of garbage research out there.

[son of a gun]

The DEA doesn't have the authority to buy $26 million worth of opium, I think congress would have to pass an appropriations bill.

[Don Galt]

The American Medical Association have shown themselves to not be trustworthy on science.

However, the journal Nature, and other journals are to be trusted-- they are quality science journals.

The AMA wouldn't endorse them (or might, depending) because of politics.

That doesn't call into question the journal. They never endorse studies published in Physics, or Physical review letters. Most of hte medical establishment is unwilling to consider remedies that did not have a half billion invested in them.

I don't know whether pot cures depression- I know some people have claimed it did for them. But it does not cause apathy. It may be that some pot users are apathetic, but that is not an effect of the drug.

Anyway, if you want to ban pot because it causes cancer, then you should endorse banning cigarrettes as well, right?

But even so, I don't like the argument that we have to have socialized medicine and the government can regulate how we medicate ourselves because if we use medications they may not like we might use too much of their socialized medicine.

I say, stop it at the start and don't ever have socialized medicine in the first place.

Doctors do prescribe pot to their cancer patients. I don't think they are doing so based on junk science.

Maybe there isn't an argument for the war on drugs that I'll agree with, but thank you for trying.

Don

[lycanthrope]

Doctors prescibe pot to cancer patients for the same reason they can prescribe Xanax or Morphine to the terminally ill. Comfort. It certainly doesn't help the disese.

As for pot causing apathy, it may not cause it for 100% of the population, but I can say from my experience of working with hundreds of users it does have that side effect and long term mental consequences if used in quantity. And.....almost all depressents will affect depression in a negative way over time. How much use and time varies.

As for cigarrettes, they have more negative effects on our society than good and probably never should have been allowed to progress as they have. They are, however, a part of our culture and to eradicate them now would be a breach of freedoms.

That does not mean that we should allow open access to all drugs because currently our medical care is government regulated and many drugs do cause social problems such as violent crime (mainly the more addictive ones, not singling out THC here). The social costs outweigh the benefits in my opinion. We either stay government regulated or we let the poor die off or someone gets a better idea. Now THAT would be a productive forum topic!

Now, these views I have are based only on my personal expertise and experience. I am not here to press these issues as I can almost guarantee that someone will eventually get pissed. I feel, like many people here, that government does infringe our freedoms on the RTKBA, but to allow all access to drugs (and why stop at marijuana, almost all drugs have SOME positive effects) would be like allowing anyone to own weapons of mass destruction. The governement is plain stupid for allowing the assault weapons ban, but they are right that Joe Shmoe shouldn't be whipping up some mustard gas in his downtown apartment.

Just my $.02.

[rock jock]

You, on the other hand, seem to live in a world where everything that doesn't agree with your religious ideology is false.
Don, your personal attacks are completely unfounded and are probably the best reflection on your character (or lack thereof) I have yet seen. You know nothing about me or my views and immediately jump to conclusions without any merit. Pathetic.

Your comments about the theraputic value of MJ for the symptoms you mention were not in question. The supposed ability of MJ to "cure" cancer is, and is not even what the article said.

[Oracle]

many drugs do cause social problems such as violent crime (mainly the more addictive ones, not singling out THC here). The social costs outweigh the benefits in my opinion.

This is the same argument used by anti's against the ownership, possession, and carry of guns. And it's just as flawed and incorrect when applied to drugs. If you're going to make statements like the one you've made above, you should really start carrying the Brady Campaign's banner, you'll get along just fine there, as you use the same kind of reasoning they do.

[lycanthrope]

Yep, someone just had to clump me in with the antis.........even after what I wrote above. It's a slap in the face and makes me madder than HELL.

Oracle, cut the personal attacks please. Sorry I don't have the same opinion as you due to my EXPERIENCE. If you already know what's right and anyone who disagrees with you is attacked and labeled then why bother coming here to a forum of opinion?

And yes. I work in people's homes with confidentiality and I can say that some drugs cause crime. Last week one of my former clients performed 3 armed robberies. He needed money for Heroin. Some addictions can make you desperate.

[grampster]

(push cynical humor button on) Now now kiddies. Why don't we just spark a bone and go to the range and shoot some tracer. (push cynical humor button off)

:p

[4v50 Gary]

Too much along the low road. Topic is good, discussion isn't. Closed.