UPS guy telling me I can ship primers without hazmat charge


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longdayjake
December 2, 2009, 03:03 AM
Today I went and shipped a stock via UPS. While I was there I got to talking to the guy taking packages. He was telling me about a bunch of people sending primers and powder out through his depot without paying hazmat. He said they just have to be declared ORMD. Is he mistaken? If I were to ship something through there at his advice could I get in trouble or would it be his fault?

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evan price
December 2, 2009, 03:11 AM
Powder and primers are not ORM-D. Your guy is wrong. Finished ammo is ORM-D. A bunch of guys are sending stuff out in violation. To ship with a HazMat tag you need to be a hazmat shipper having taken the classes and gotten certified. All those folks selling primers for $100 a K and Varget for $40 a pound on Gunbroker? Most of em shipped out illegally.

ants
December 2, 2009, 03:40 AM
There is no law requiring that anyone charge a fee for handling hazardous materials. It is UPS policy to charge the fee. From their rate guide:

Carrier may accept shipments of hazardous materials or hazardous substances subject to all requirements of the U.S. Department of Transportation and the Environmental Protection Agency governing transportation of such commodities. Shipper shall comply with all governmental requirements including but not limited to any special labeling, packaging requirements and bills of lading descriptions. When tendered by Shipper and accepted by Carrier, such shipments shall also be subject to the following provisions:

Applicable Commodities under this rule Any shipment containing commodities that are classified as hazardous by the Department of Transportation as published in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Title 49.

Per Shipment Charge: $20.00 (See notes 1 through 8)

Note 1: In addition to the per shipment charge, if Carrier must move shipment over a circuitous route due to local, state, or federal highway restrictions, Carrier will prepare a designated route plan over the most practical and approved route for movement of such commodities. If the total distance from the initial origin to the final destination via the designated route of movement exceeds 115% of the mileage over the normal route of movement, all distance in excess of 115% will be charged for at the rate of $3.78 per mile.

Note 2: If Carrier must purchase special permits for transportation movement, Carrier will purchase such permits and collect the purchase price plus a service fee of $18.00 for each permit purchased.

Note 3: Any fines or penalties imposed on Carrier as a result of Shippers failure to meet regulatory requirements will be charged back to Shipper.

Note 4: The per shipment charge accruing under this item will be collected from the party responsible for payment of the line haul freight charges.

Note 5: Nothing in this rule shall obligate Carrier to handle any commodity not packaged properly for transportation or from transporting shipments beyond the scope of Carriers operating certificates. No shipments of hazardous waste (defined by CFR 49 section 171.3) nor shipments of radioactive materials (except in limited quantities of class 7 materials described under section CFR 49 sections 173.422 and 173.424) will be accepted for transportation.

Note 6: Carrier guaranteed service programs are not applicable in connection with shipments of hazardous materials unless specifically pre-approved by Carrier before shipment.

Note 7: Any bill of lading notation limiting full access to a vehicle or any delays caused by a regulatory agency (or any party to the transportation), will be subject to exclusive use of vehicle and/or storage charges found in items 470 and 910 herein.

Note 8: If the shipment is refused by the consignee or, for any other reason not the fault of Carrier, cannot be delivered to the consignee, Carrier will provide notice to the Shipper that the freight is undelivered and subject to storage charges (see item 910). If, within 10 days of such notice, Shipper does not provide written disposition instructions to Carrier, Carrier, at its sole discretion, shall be entitled, but not obligated, to dispose of the shipment. Shipper shall be responsible for all disposal costs and for all storage charges up to the time of disposal or other disposition of the shipment.

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 09:32 AM
There is no law requiring that anyone charge a fee for handling hazardous materials. It is UPS policy to charge the fee. From their rate guide:

But there is a requirement to properly certify the shipment. As Evan mentioned, primers are not "otherwise regulated;" they're HM.

sfc_mark
December 2, 2009, 10:23 AM
There is no law requiring that anyone charge a fee for handling hazardous materials. It is UPS policy to charge the fee. From their rate guide:

I suppose it would be technically legal for them to take a loss on the cost of DOT compliance, but it wouldn't make good business sense.

freakshow10mm
December 2, 2009, 10:47 AM
According to 49 CFR 172-174, you as a Haz Mat employee (any person who is responsible for handling, packaging, labeling, inspecting, or transporting hazardous materials) need to be trained on:

General awareness training
Function-specific training
Safety training
Emergency response training
Security awareness training
In depth security training
Any other training required by OSHA, EPA, or other government or international agency

Once you complete the training, you then submit an application for haz mat shipping with a contract carrier, ie UPS or FedEx. You fill out the one page form, submit training certificates showing you are trained in accordance with the federal laws, and submit a sample record form for all the hazardous materials you will be shipping. They forward this to the security and haz mat division which approves the application. You are then approved to begin shipping hazardous materials with that shipping provider.

My company is now officially a haz mat certified shipper with FedEx. The training was pretty easy.

It isn't as simple as walking up to the counter and paying a fee. Primers and powder are NEVER ORM-D. They are always hazardous materials.

Primers and powder are both Class 1.4 Explosives. Smokeless powder and black powder for small arms can be reclassified as Hazard Class 4.1 Flammable Solid if packed in individual containers not greater than 8lbs and shipping packages no greater than 16lbs using type 4 fiberboard PG type 1 class box.

Ammunition is a Class 1.4 Explosive but allowed to be reclassed to ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition if packed tightly, primers are protected, and packaging is less than 66lbs.

SlamFire1
December 2, 2009, 10:55 AM
Ship as much as you can before they bone you for the haz mat fee. Which they will.

Companies are in the business to maximize their profits. They love it when you have little or no choice. They collude between themselves to reduce the competition, and increase their profits.

freakshow10mm
December 2, 2009, 11:01 AM
Great advice. Willfully and knowingly break federal law which carries a $250,000 fine each occurrence for illegally shipping hazardous materials.

So what happens if you ship primers standard ground without complying and they are set off in transit? You are now personally liable for damage to other packages, vehicle damage, and any injury that occurred, not to mention the DOT will investigate this as it is a hazardous materials shipment. If you want to be childish and play games, please don't do it with hazardous materials. This stuff is not a joke and should not be treated lightly.

azyogi
December 2, 2009, 11:12 AM
Say I have some new primed brass, or SG hulls no powder no bullets/shot. If I wanted to send them UPS Question is is that ORM-D or HAZMAT

Marlin 45 carbine
December 2, 2009, 11:53 AM
I have had new, primed brass sent to me many times no haz-mat as well as loaded ammo - doesn't make any sense.

USSR
December 2, 2009, 11:57 AM
Primed brass and loaded ammo does not require a Hazmat fee, simply mark it as ORM-D and ship it.

Don

longdayjake
December 2, 2009, 12:00 PM
Okay, so who classified the primers and powder that way? And where do you go to find out the classifications of shippable materials?

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 12:01 PM
I have had new, primed brass sent to me many times no haz-mat as well as loaded ammo - doesn't make any sense.
Bulk primers are classed 1.1/mass detonating. Chances of a sympathetic detonation with primed brass is minuscule.

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 12:03 PM
Okay, so who classified the primers and powder that way? And where do you go to find out the classifications of shippable materials?
Code of Federal Regulations 49.

http://www.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/cfrassemble.cgi?title=200349

delta5
December 2, 2009, 12:31 PM
That cracks me up. I can order a 100+ lb crate of surplus 7.62x54R ammo, and its ORM-D, but a box of primers or a lb of powder needs an extra $20 fee (for what?)...

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 01:09 PM
Small arms ammo hazards are fire and possibly light missiles (fragments). Bulk primers hazard is mass detonation (a bomb). Bulk powder hazard is mass fire. Loaded ammo is much safer than bulk components. Single round ignition rarely results in propagation.

helg
December 2, 2009, 01:17 PM
If I work for primer making company, I would design and patent a safe package for primers that does not require Hazmat fees.

Cosmoline
December 2, 2009, 01:22 PM
Bulk primers hazard is mass detonation (a bomb). Bulk powder hazard is mass fire. Loaded ammo is much safer than bulk components. Single round ignition rarely results in propagation.

Let's not get carried away. Primers are not "a bomb"--that's histrionic nonsense. Nor is smokeless powder particularly dangerous. It's nowhere near as great a fire hazard as the gasoline in the tank of the vehicle carrying it.

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 01:39 PM
Let's not get carried away. Primers are not "a bomb"--that's histrionic nonsense. Nor is smokeless powder particularly dangerous. It's nowhere near as great a fire hazard as the gasoline in the tank of the vehicle carrying it.
I left out the word "potential." My apologies to the literalists.

I spent most of my adult life working with munitions. If you think primers will not mass detonate, dump a carton into a container and touch one off. I suggest you do so with a length of time fuze and an M60 igniter. I have not tested it, but I know people who were paid to do just that.

If I work for primer making company, I would design and patent a safe package for primers that does not require Hazmat fees.

Supposedly, the Federal packaging does just that.

atblis
December 2, 2009, 01:43 PM
According to SAAMI

Primers should never be handled, used, or stored in bulk,
since primers in bulk can explode simultaneously.

http://www.saami.org/Publications/
http://www.saami.org/Publications/200.pdf
http://www.saami.org/Publications/201.pdf
http://www.saami.org/Publications/202.pdf

There is most certainly a difference between primers/bulk powder, and loaded ammo.

Cosmoline
December 2, 2009, 02:01 PM
That's if they are "loose" or otherwise "having contact with each other." The factory package separates each primer. To claim factory sealed primers in their boxes will just up and detonate is absolute hogwash.

dump a carton into a container and touch one off.

Why would I do that? Obviously that's not a safe way to ship primers.

freakshow10mm
December 2, 2009, 02:04 PM
If I work for primer making company, I would design and patent a safe package for primers that does not require Hazmat fees.
It doesn't matter how you package it. The fact that they are primers means they are hazardous materials.

Supposedly, the Federal packaging does just that.
Completely false. No packaging is exempt from hazmat fees. If you ship primers you must pay a hazmat fee. There are no exceptions.

helg
December 2, 2009, 02:36 PM
It doesn't matter how you package it. The fact that they are primers means they are hazardous materials.
Completely false. No packaging is exempt from hazmat fees. If you ship primers you must pay a hazmat fee. There are no exceptions.
OK, then it is the task not for technicians, but for lawyers. Primed brass is not hazmat, right? I would design a cartridge, something like 25ACP in diameter, but with shorter shell to make the box of a 1000 smaller, and name the product "primed shells" instead of "primers".

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 02:37 PM
The factory package separates each primer. To claim factory sealed primers in their boxes will just up and detonate is absolute hogwash.

Ask Federal why they changed their packs some years ago. Nothing will "just up and detonate," not even gasoline. Something has to initiate the chain...say an auto accident. There was an incident at Sierra Army Depot back in the seventies. Three BLU-82 bombs detonated while sitting in an above ground igloo. No was within a mile or more, as I recall. Obviously, something happened, but last I knew there were only suppositions. Shipping, handling and storage regulations are based on potential risks.

Completely false. No packaging is exempt from hazmat fees. If you ship primers you must pay a hazmat fee. There are no exceptions.

My apologies as I wasn't clear. What I intend to state was Federal redesigned the packaging to (help) prevent sympathetic detonation. I should have read Helg's post a little more carefully. You are correct; no amount of packing changes the classification of primers. However, there are explosives that are considered less dangerous (probably not the best word) if packed properly.

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 02:40 PM
OK, then it is the task not for technicians, but for lawyers. Primed brass is not hazmat, right? I would design a cartridge, something like 25ACP in diameter, but with shorter shell to make the box of a 1000 smaller, and name the product "primed shells" instead of "primers".
In theory, you could probably do that, but I'm certain the cost would exceed HAZMAT fees. Plus, you would have to deprime the "cases."

freakshow10mm
December 2, 2009, 02:40 PM
Yes, primed brass is not hazardous materials. You can ship unlabeled as it's not ORM-D either, that only applies to small arms ammunition and does not include primed brass. You can just mail primed brass USPS, you just can't mail ammunition USPS.

Powder and primers as components: UPS or FedEx Ground Haz Mat
Loaded ammunition: UPS or FedEx Ground ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition ('Cartridges, small arms' is the proper DOT shipping name if you want to get technical)
Primed brass or brass with spent primer: no restrictions, US mail service OK

helg
December 2, 2009, 03:10 PM
In theory, you could probably do that, but I'm certain the cost would exceed HAZMAT fees. Plus, you would have to deprime the "cases." Never underestimate invention power of a properly motivated engineer.

OK, let us make a cartridge of "25kurz" from plastic. It would be intended to be shot from the 25ACP mouse guns when loaded by a plastic bullet, primer of a choice (we will have 25SP, 25LR and other brands) and no powder. Same way as 22lr Colibri ammo is shot from 22lr guns. With low pressure due to the light bullet you can avoid using brass for a shell, and have a cheap plastic that adds about the price of APS strip on top. 25acp largest diameter is .3", which is on par with distance between primers in Winchester and some other packs - so we can get comparable packing density.The deprimer? Why do you ever need a deprimer? A lot of people use primer pickup tubes to fill the primers one at a time. A simple stud at one side of the "cartridge" when pickup tube is at the other one serve as a poor man deprimer. Sure, the depriming can be automated for a price.

Does anybody want to jump through hoops of the hazmat regulations to perfect the idea?

rogn
December 2, 2009, 04:09 PM
Dont want to damage thread, but can someone document any incident related to shipping of firearms related materials that would indicate that this cow( hazmat fee) need be bled dry. All of these materials(-iels ?) are potentially dangerous if abused negligently. But has this been documented as occurring in any history recent or otherwise? The gist seems to be a direct line to the wallets, especilly of the shooting public. The fuels, gas and diesel seem more likely to be be a destructive force on many more occasoins than any of the components we ship or have shipped. Again dont plan a hijack, but I am again scratching my head as to how we openned this pathway to our wallets..?

Otto
December 2, 2009, 07:39 PM
The fuels, gas and diesel seem more likely to be be a destructive force on many more occasoins than any of the components we ship or have shipped.Fuels, gas and diesel are also assessed hazmat fees when shipped by common carrier.

UnderDawgAl
December 2, 2009, 08:49 PM
Bulk primers are classed 1.1/mass detonating.

There are two entries for Primer, Cap Type in the 49CFR, one for class 1.1 and the other for class 1.4. The large/small pistol primers and large/small rifle primers are 1.4.

Ship as much as you can before they bone you for the haz mat fee. Which they will.

Companies are in the business to maximize their profits. They love it when you have little or no choice. They collude between themselves to reduce the competition, and increase their profits.

As freakshow10mm and others have noted, shipping primers or powder requires strict adherence to DOT and FAA regulations. USPS is not an option for either. UPS and Fedex have the right to charge a hazmat fee to cover the costs of the additional man-hours they have to devote to meeting DOT and FAA regulations. That's not predatory business practice; that's charging for the extra work required to meet regulatory standards.

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 08:49 PM
Dont want to damage thread, but can someone document any incident related to shipping of firearms related materials that would indicate that this cow( hazmat fee) need be bled dry. All of these materials(-iels ?) are potentially dangerous if abused negligently. But has this been documented as occurring in any history recent or otherwise? The gist seems to be a direct line to the wallets, especilly of the shooting public. The fuels, gas and diesel seem more likely to be be a destructive force on many more occasoins than any of the components we ship or have shipped. Again dont plan a hijack, but I am again scratching my head as to how we openned this pathway to our wallets..?
Back in the '80s we were expecting a shipment of 20MM from the depot. When the truck didn't arrive as scheduled we checked and learned the trucker had crashed and there was a fire. Passersby said it was quite a show.

I agree, it's a money maker.

EddieNFL
December 2, 2009, 08:54 PM
The large/small pistol primers and large/small rifle primers are 1.4.

In shipping packing, you are correct. I believe the overpack sleeves are marked 1.4. Don't know why I didn't remember that. Gettin' old sucks.

chris in va
December 3, 2009, 01:03 AM
It's nowhere near as great a fire hazard as the gasoline in the tank of the vehicle carrying it.

Mmm...guess which one has it's own oxygen supply and doesn't need the presence of air to ignite?

Believe me, I'd rather drive around with a tank of gas than a tank of W231.

freakshow10mm
December 3, 2009, 01:43 AM
Believe me, I'd rather drive around with a tank of gas than a tank of W231.
Actually a gallon of gasoline is more dangerous and destructive than a pound of smokeless gun powder.

EddieNFL, the proper shipping name for primers (the ones we use) is Primers, cap type and is a Hazard Class 1.4S, UN0044, EX-9011264D, Packing Group II shipment.

Mags
December 3, 2009, 02:42 AM
1.4S
The S behind the 1.4 denotes flammable/hazardous gas. I am an AMMO troop and know my placards. How do primers produce a flammable gas? Regular loaded small arms ammo is 1.4C.

From AFMAN 91-201
Ball cartridges, .50 cal and smaller, and all gages of shot-gun shells, may be treated as
HC/D 1.4C unless 1.4S can be definitely established.

qajaq59
December 3, 2009, 07:31 AM
UPS guy telling me I can ship primers without hazmat charge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Today I went and shipped a stock via UPS. While I was there I got to talking to the guy taking packages. He was telling me about a bunch of people sending primers and powder out through his depot without paying hazmat. He said they just have to be declared ORMD. Is he mistaken? If I were to ship something through there at his advice could I get in trouble or would it be his fault? Do yourself a favor... Go ask his Boss that question!!! Then I'm sure you wont do it.

EddieNFL
December 3, 2009, 10:09 AM
RealMags, my knowledge is dated, but I remembered the 'S' indicating storage compatibility (or maybe it was both and I've forgotten...again). I remember things changed quite a bit in the early '90s when we began switching to the UN shipping numbers, etc. Clue me in.

IYAAYAS!

EddieNFL
December 3, 2009, 10:13 AM
Actually a gallon of gasoline is more dangerous and destructive than a pound of smokeless gun powder.

IIRC (not doing so well, lately), in theory, a gallon of gasoline touched off at one mile altitude has enough force to lift the Empire State building one foot.

Mags
December 3, 2009, 12:24 PM
Eddie, the 1.1 etc numbers represent explosive class and the letters represent hazard class divisions nowadays.

IYAAYAS!

RustyFN
December 3, 2009, 01:03 PM
OK here is a dumb question. Why is it that we have to pay hazmat with Fed-X and UPS but I can have a pallet of primers and powder shipped to where I work LTL with no hazmat fee?

freakshow10mm
December 3, 2009, 01:39 PM
Method of shipping.

EddieNFL
December 3, 2009, 03:27 PM
Eddie, the 1.1 etc numbers represent explosive class and the letters represent hazard class divisions nowadays.

IYAAYAS!
Mags,

The UN stuff was towards the end of my career and not being hands on the last ten or so years before I retired, I don't recall much of it. I assume (at great risk) that AFM 91-210 is Explosive Safety Standards? When I was hanging placards, 1.1 was hazard class/sub division and the letter was for storage compatibility. What is used for storage compatibility these days? The old AFM 127-100 used a chart that allowed/prohibited storing certain groups together. Groups B and F were always a problem.

AMMO sucks!

mgkdrgn
December 3, 2009, 07:56 PM
Today I went and shipped a stock via UPS. While I was there I got to talking to the guy taking packages. He was telling me about a bunch of people sending primers and powder out through his depot without paying hazmat. He said they just have to be declared ORMD. Is he mistaken? If I were to ship something through there at his advice could I get in trouble or would it be his fault?

If YOU ship the package, it's YOUR problem. The UPS guy isn't going to jail, YOU are.

You ought to do the manager of this UPS station a favor and suggest to him that his staff (or at least part of it) could use a weeee bit more HazMat training. DOT has absolutely -no- sense of humor when it comes to HazMat violations. You might just save his career.

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