[CWL]

I used to be on the bandwagon about recommending a .38spcl (.357mag) revolver to parents, elderly, those with arthritus, infirmities, etc. for a reliable, easy t operate self-defense weapon. Recent events have made me re-evaluate this.

By now most of us have seen the LA Lawyer shooting and there have already been a flurry of discussions here, but the most important impression that this has made on me is that the .38spl didn't do it's job-even under the best conditions: Ambush, close/contact range, meek target, no defensive response from victim.

I think the nut used a 5-rd snubbie revolver shooting .38spl bullets. and the lawyer did take at least one round in the shoulder as well as lighter wounds. Results? -He remained mobile and conscious the entire time before finally collapsing later.

Observations:
1. Victim was a white-collar type, not a highly trained soldier/LEO or crazed killer, criminal, whacked-out junkie. Yet he remained mobile long enough to potentially hurt/kill the shooter.
2. .38spcl didn't immediately incapacitate, there certainly was little loss of muzzle-velocity at point-blank range.
3. A determined attacker would have enough time to potentially return deadly damage during this encounter.
4. Yeah yeah -"placement of bullets..." but as we all can see, targets do not like to stand still while you shoot at it. They were separated by about 2-ft distance, and it was already so difficult to hit him.

Results, I don't think that I would ever recommend this round to any of my loved ones to use for a self-defense caliber.

Anyone have a better solution?

[Mike Irwin]

I heard that the shooter used an 8-shot .22.

Far cry from a .38 if true.

[BluesBear]

Dear Abby,

I wouldn't be sitting here typing this if it hadn't been for a double tap from a .38 snub. First shot was about 5 yards, second was about 3. Didn't need a 3rd.

Just sign me Glad To Still Be Here.

[waktasz]

He took one shot in the shoulder and you expect him to drop dead on the spot? I don't think anything short of .50bmg would have done that. Shot placement!

[C.R.Sam]

Doesn't matter if sitting quietly or bobbing n weaving.

Shot placement is paramount.

Sam

[NightWolfe]

I heard that the shooter used an 8-shot .22.

IIRC I heard the same thing .. pretty sure it was a .22 .. a .38 should be a good man stopper .. with good shot placement

[Sheldon]

You cannot expect to reliably have an instant one shot drop with a handgun even in the best of circumstances, but even less so when you don't actually aim. Bullet placement is a BIG deal. You need to hit something that will either do major vascular damage or central nervous system damage. Even a potentialy lethal wound will not guarantee the perp will drop instantly.

[BluesBear]

Don't forget that you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop.

He was just walking along minding his own business. After the frist shot he did stop what he was doing before.


But IMO, the real lessons here are;

Hard Cover IS your friend!

Bring Enough Gun.

Don't waste ammo, especially when you don't have a clear shot.

Placement, placement, placement.

A handgun is at best a marginal weapon.

And,

Now you know the reason that the outside rings on a B27 are such low numbers.

[mete]

The 38 in typical loading , 158 RNL is not very good. Go to swc or jhp. Even better is the 158 swchp +p.That one is quite respectable. And place the bullet in the right place.

[Rob96]

So.................A 45acp hit to the arm would have been better? The lawyer would have been knocked off of his feet? Placement, Placement, Placement. Oh and don't forget Placement.

[only1asterisk]

.38 is nothing to sneeze at, and with right ammo, it is a valid choice for SD.


The lawyer was shot with a .22, and most of the hits were peripheral. More gun may have done more damage, but a marginal hits are never a good thing (unless you are the shootee).
I do believe that this man is very lucky that he was shot with a .22. A fiend of mine was hit 5 times with a .38. He spent weeks in a hospital, his injuries have left one arm useless and he walks with a cane. Gunshot wounds are funny things, all his hits were peripheral, but he dropped on the spot (shot in the knee).


David

[YodaVader]

Anyone have a better solution?

Yes , don't form your judgement of the 38 based on ONE specific shooting incident? If that is the case then all handgun cartridges have been failures in specific shootings.

[JERRY]

hope you dont have faith in the .45, .357, .44mag..ect...a single shoulder shot from those have also left alot of fight in thier targets....

lets get real here huh?

[Al Thompson]

About once every couple of years one of my handgun toting non-hunting or rifle/shotgun hunting friends shoots a critter with their self defense gun.

Results?

:what:

Hadguns are not great stoppers, regardless of caliber. There are many documented instances of rifles and shotguns failing too. :) It helps (IMHO) to think of a handgun as a remote control drill with zero shocking power or an arrow or an icepick. It's not a rifle.

No problems with a good .38 in my book. Practice makes perfect.

[Sarge]

Observations/Q&A
1. Victim was a white-collar type, not a highly trained soldier/LEO or crazed killer, criminal, whacked-out junkie. Yet he remained mobile long enough to potentially hurt/kill the shooter.

Victim exhibited a typical response to being shot- he tried to avoid being shot again, worse, or dead. Your job is as irrelevant as the color of your socks when you finally realize somebody is trying to kill you, and the adrenalin kicks in. Deer are neither "highly trained" or "crazed killers", but I have seen them run 200 yards after taking a .44/300XTP/1350fps, right behind the shoulder. They must have never read Marshall & Sanow, huh? I have seen similar behavior from homo sapiens hit with 12 gauge slugs and .40/180 HydraShok. Welcome to the "Wild Kingdom", of which we are all members.

2. .38spcl didn't immediately incapacitate, there certainly was little loss of muzzle-velocity at point-blank range.

Placement is the answer. Plant that little .38 on the centerline of the body and it is a pretty decent problem-solver- just like the others mentioned above.

3. A determined attacker would have enough time to potentially return deadly damage during this encounter.

Happens all the time. This is why you always take the biggest gun you can shoot well to a fight- and why anybody worth shooting, is worth shooting DOWN.

4. Yeah yeah -"placement of bullets..." but as we all can see, targets do not like to stand still while you shoot at it. They were separated by about 2-ft distance, and it was already so difficult to hit him.

Range time. Moving targets. Watch your front sight. See # 1 & 2 above.

This is the reality of gunfights. They're usually a surprise for at least one of the participants, and if you can avoid taking any bad hits in the initial salvo, your chance of survival goes up dramatically. Avoid further exposure, seek cover, return effective fire until the problem is solved. Our shooter in this instance was obviously shocked by the ineffectiveness of his own fire. If Mr. Lawyer had been armed and in "yank & blast" mode, the aggressor would either have been dead, leaking badly, or moving a whole lot faster down that street in the opposite direction.

When you quit- you lose. Evade if you can't return fire, or to gain a better position to return fire from. As long as your evading you haven't quit. Allow adrenalin to do its work, and use the survival instinct to your advantage.

[Tim Burke]

you are not supposed to have faith in it.

[RWK]

Sarge,

Good answers.

[Jim March]

First, I seriously believe that with several "marginal calibers" including the 38, being VERY picky about your ammo really matters.

Once you get into 45ACP/357Mag territory, most brand-name JHPs work fine. When you drop the power down to 380/38Spl/32ACP/32Mag/22Mag/22LR territory, the number of reasonable choices takes a serious dip.

There's a grand total of three loads I'd trust in a 38Spl with a barrel of 2" - 4". At 6", the number of additional choices isn't that high.

1) The 158grain lead hollowpoint +Ps by Winchester and Remington. (Based on average penetration and expansion numbers, this round stomps a lot of 9mm out there, esp. from a 4" barrel. It's effectiveness is out of proportion to it's energy numbers and it's racked up a VERY good rep over a lot of years. Stone-axe primitive and still damned effective...gotta love it.)

2) The Gold Dot 125+Ps as loaded by Proload, Black Hills, Georgia Arms, etc.

3) Winchester's 130grain +P Supreme JHP.

This is based on looking at "post gelatin photos" (clothed and bare) plus velocity/energy data versus "bodycount studies" such as M&S.

In a 2" gun, as an additional factor I like to run a barrel/cylinder gap down into the .002" to .003" for extra velocity. 38+Ps in a snubby are right at the ragged edge of "barely working".

I am equally picky about ALL the other calibers mentioned. In 22LR, I like CCI Stingers and Remington Yellowjackets (latter is revolver only due to very weird nose shape and feed issues). In 22Mag, CCI has a pair of 30grain JHPs that pull 1,200fps from a 2" barrel and do energy numbers in the 32ACP's range.

I could on but the point is, a statement like "38snubbie is a very poor performer" is TRUE if you average across all available loads, but a lie if you hand-pick "the good stuff". Ditto all calibers below it's performance range. As most bad guys are gun-stupid, they grab whatever crap is handy and shoot people with it, and we see things like that poor attorney dodging behind a tree, taking multiple hits and walking out of the hospital in a day or two. Or that rapper "50 cents", hit eight times in a single incident during his gangbanger days and today walking around in perfect health.

You can't judge what YOU can do with carefully placed, carefully CHOSEN fodder based on idiocy like that.

Regardless of caliber.

[Border]

Fanatasies for some notwithstanding, it is extremely unlikey that any non-LEOs (or even LEO's in most communities) will ever need to even draw our gun and much less so need to actually shoot it in the first place so I wouldn't worry TOO much! Don't get me wrong-I carry! But I think that a number on this site really enjoy imagining a scenario happening, (and there is nothing wrong with doing so in my opinion until you start talking like that to Mr. Average Public and hurt us all PR wise) but in REALITY, for 99.99% of us-it's NOT ever going to happen anyway!!! But you can't tell that to someone who never so much as goes to the bathroom without his 1911 and two back-ups to say nothing of the bug out bag in the SUV! He'd never admit that he was "playing" really! If you based your life on probalities you'd never drive a car! That being said a .38 with Hydra-Shoks will work just fine if you don't miss!

[antediluvianist]

Use a completely flat wadcutter bullet, never mind semiwadcutters. Hollowpoints may or may not expand at .38 special velocities. Wadcutters make a reliable hole, as big as the .38's diameter is capable of.

And as the previous writer said, damn little probability that any non-LEOs among us will really have to shoot at a fellow human being , so let's not stay up worrying about it. We practice until we are confident. That's enough. Shooting is a good hobby in itself, does not need to be supported by fantasies of shooting people.

[Tamara]

You know, there was another nationally televised shooting with a .22 snubby revolver about twenty years ago that had a very different outcome, including one DRT. :uhoh:

[Kentucky Rifle]

"Gunshot wounds are funny things"...he was right. Good friend of mine has a LEO brother in law who was shot COM with a .22 short. He's a big guy, but he spent a month in the hospital over that little bullet. Almost died twice.

KR

[Kestrel]

5 of the shots were in his ARM and the 6th shot was in his neck/shoulder area. Hardly vital hits - wouldn't have mattered if it was a 9mm...

Steve

[Mastrogiacomo]

Let's think about this...the man shot with lawyer with a snub nose -- what .22 or .38? Most people using the gun for self-defense will do so at close range -- often surprising the perp who won't expect them to be armed, and likely won't be dancing around the house/apartment when they realize the homeowner is armed. Nor would most people shoot a person in the back trying to run out of the victim's home. Hence, the gun serves it's purpose if it sends the perp running. I'm comfortable with either a revolver in that situation or a pistol. In the streets, I'd prefer the revolver to be my back up and my pistol to be my primary gun -- but at home, hardly matters....

[bad_dad_brad]

Lee Harvey Oswald didn't think the .38spl was anything to sneeze at. Seems he killed that police officer Tippet with a .38 and then took one in the belly from Ruby's snub. Stick a "belly gun" into someones belly and the resulting damage will not only be from the slug but all the escaping gas as well.

And let's not forget that Bobby Kennedy was whacked with a .22 (conspiracy theories aside) and Reagan almost died from a .22 wound and left his press secretary Brady brain damaged.

The .38 will do the job, especially with with the new generation of hollowpoint bullets.

Personally I like the .38 revolver and will continue to recommend as a first gun a quality 3" barrel revolver for home defense (like a Ruger SP101) loaded with good quality ammo like Federal's PD 110 grain hyra shocks. Unlike higher powered calibers, I easily hit what I aim at and follow up quickly with a .38 and that goes for the 9mm as well.

[forquidder]

Quote:
"but in REALITY, for 99.99% of us-it's NOT ever going to happen anyway!!! But you can't tell that to someone who never so much as goes to the bathroom without his 1911 and two back-ups to say nothing of the bug out bag in the SUV! He'd never admit that he was "playing" really!"

I must be one of the .0001%
Had a sow grizzly with cubs take down a moose about 50 yards from the house earlier this summer. She cleaned up the carcass in about a week but haunted around the place all during warm weather. So I've been packin' a 44 mag minimum everytime I go to the outhouse. Call me paranoid but I would never even consider anything as weak as a 1911 when going to the bathroom :D

[LCSNM]

From my viewing of the newscasts showing the shooting:

Looked like the shooter was trying to shake water off the end of the barrel.
No control over the firearm, no shot placement, point of aim, etc.

Looked to me like the old type westerns where they just wagged the revolver and shot

[George Hill]

Yeah yeah -"placement of bullets..." but as we all can see, targets do not like to stand still while you shoot at it. They were separated by about 2-ft distance, and it was already so difficult to hit him.

What? You want to clip the bad guy to a target hanger and roll him out to the 7 yard line?

You make Clint Smith cry.

[Mike Irwin]

"You know, there was another nationally televised shooting with a .22 snubby revolver about twenty years ago that had a very different outcome, including one DRT."

If you're talking about John Hinckley, I don't think anyone died...


And, for amusement, the required link to a conspiracy thread claiming that Hinckley didn't shoot Reagan.

http://www.totse.com/en/conspiracy/institutional_analysis/hinkdisp.html

[Tamara]

If you're talking about John Hinckley, I don't think anyone died...

Whoops! For some reason I was thinking that McCarthy had died... He certainly didn't go dashing behind any trees that day. :uhoh:

[Pumpkinheaver]

Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement!!!!!

[Tim Burke]

sounds like an instruction that might be given to a Druid monk.

[jnb01]

Sarge, excellent post! It's refreshing to see sound logic and reason prevail sometimes.

Best, jnb01

[444]

I am not trying to be a jerk and am not trying to come off as a know it all. But, it appears to me that you started out with a grossly overblown idea of handgun effectiveness. You just learned a valuable lesson in reality. The next lesson is that pretty much any other handgun would have produced similar results.

I know this isn't anything all that different from what has already been posted, but I think it is a significant point that bears repeating.

[TonyB]

I use the same load as bad_dad_brad and have faith in them....in fact TODAY at the range I switched BACK to them from 357 hydra-shoks....My follow up shots w/ the 357's were awefull.....but w/ the 38+p+ federals I was able to put all 5 in an IDPA target center mass in about 4 seconds.at 10 yards....not to bad............and it's a 38...practice w/ the load you're going to carry and shoot well......:cool:

[Mike Irwin]

"I was thinking that McCarthy had died..."

Well, some might say that his soul died... He went into politics in Illinois in the 1990s...

[kentucky bucky]

That was one slippery attorney, even bullets wouldn't stick to him. I bet he gets a ballistic briefcase for Christmas.

[Ky Larry]

Effective fire power results from hits on target not number of rounds fired.

[Sharpie1]

The 38 in typical loading , 158 RNL is not very good. Go to swc or jhp. Even better is the 158 swchp +p.That one is quite respectable.

If I am using a .38 snubbie, I am not going to be using a new light and fast load - such as hydra shoks. The round nose lead bullets are much more suitable in a 2" barrel.

You're just not going to get enough velocity for reliable expansion (with 2" bbl), so getting as much weight thrown out is the best bet...in my opinion, at least.

TD

[BigG]

Reality. It's a bitter pill.

I don't think anybody has ever seriously recommended a 38 Special as some kind of desirable caliber for self defense. What I've often read is they say the MINIMUM is a 38 Special. People scan past the MINIMUM and conclude that 38 is an approved or desirable caliber. I admit that a 5 shot 38 snub is what I have with me but I've learned to poke with the muzzle to the eye socket and to throw that sucker. Whatever works! :o

[George Hill]

If I am using a .38 snubbie, I am not going to be using a new light and fast load - such as hydra shoks. The round nose lead bullets are much more suitable in a 2" barrel. You're just not going to get enough velocity for reliable expansion (with 2" bbl), so getting as much weight thrown out is the best bet...in my opinion, at least.

That's not quite true. A hollow point with still damage more tissue than a LRN even if it doesn't expand... and if your using this sort of logic - then wadcutters would be the way to go.

Now, let's address the JHP again... your right - typical JHPs don't do well at low velocities. But modern JHPs are doing much better at this now, than they did just 5 years ago. I love the Nyclad loads because they expanded so easily, they would mushroom in a head wind... but since they are out of production (You can still find them in places, I still have 150 rounds of it in 9MM) another good option that has almost free expansion is the Gold Dot. The jacket is just a thin gilding that wont hold the lead to shape like other jackets will. These would make excellent snub loads.
Oh, and check the Revolver section for a thread on a new Gold Dot load coming out that is specifically tuned for use in small snubs. (I'm sure they will work fine in longer barreled guns too)

[ElToro]

lets not forget, this was an offensive shooting, not a defensive one... if the lawyer had shot back, i think it would have been fewer shots fired. . also i saw at least one news clip showing the guy with a bloody forehead.. as in the bullet glanced off if the guy came after him with a .22 thats his own stupidity. if it was a .38 it was bad shooting.
I keep Winchester 130 SXT +p in my 442... and my .38/44 HDs

[RobW]

The whole thing MUST be an urban myth! According to the Polosis, Feinsteins, Schumers et al. anti-gun laws work! So, there are no guns in LA!

And, you know, only guns kill, people don't!

[Eyeless]

When you get right down to it this thread is moot.

The clown used a .22 revolver not a .38 revolver.

The rounds did not hit center of mass.

We do not use self-defense weapons to kill. We carry them to stop an attack.

This incident did boost TV news ratings though.

[mrmeangenes]

I don't know what that rascal was shooting, but any lawyer, who can duck and dodge a seemingly inevitable fate the way he did deserves to be on your speed dial !!:p

[CWL]

OK, OK! I didn't know it was a .22! (this is what i get for being on the road and only getting my info as it breaks on CNN). Changes the picture definitely. also:

I know that placement is everything.

I also know that NO handgun round is an effective stopper (read my postings here and on TFL).

I've always been an advocate of movement as part of self-defense.

Still, part of the reason why I originally posted this is because of the common recommendation of .38s as a typical defensive caliber and weapon for elderly, infirm and nightstand duty.

My original worries came about because if I am to give my 70-yr old & 100lb mother a 5-6 shot revolver loaded with .38s, will the gun, bullet and her be enough to stop a determined attacker (say someone 17-25 who has been on a week-long meth binge and has just broken into her house for some loot)?

[BluesBear]

CWL,

If a guy is full of Glass or PCP, he'll be harder to stop than your run of the mill drunken hellraiser.

But if your mom can hit him Center Mass 5 or 6 times with a .38special, if it doesn't put him down, it should at least slow him down enough to give her time to get to her 20" double barreled, outside hammer, 12 gauge "coach gun" loaded with 000 buckshot.
:evil:

[BigG]

CWL, without trying to offend you I must ask why do you want something for someone else, your mother, who will not do what you want her to unless she wants to. I read often here about what should I get my wife, girl friend, mother, etc. but if the person is not truly interested in their own safety there is no point in fooling yourself. Many years ago I tried to introduce my dear mother to shooting and mindset and she looked at the gun as if it were something the cat left under the bed. I could tell she would cower and accept her fate given she was put into a life or death situation with another person. It's a human thing and not everybody is programmed to be John Wayne when the going gets tough.

It is another thing entirely IF IT IS HER IDEA and she asks you what kind of gun she should get. I just think it is wishful thinking to try to get somebody interested in self defense when they have difficulty crushing a cockroach, spider, or telling a rude person to mind their manners, even. :o

[CWL]

Hey BigG, I've been offended by worse! ;)

Agree with you -it is an individual's choice, but as my daddy-O is getting along in years, household defense has to be considered by her as well. Dog & alarm is first line of defense.

[Gabe]

Several years ago I saw a video of a similar assasination attempt in Russia. One old guy confronted another on a busy street, words were exchanged and the old fellow pulled out a sawed off double barrel shotgun and shot the guy in the midsection. Now the gauge is unknown, but it fired at point blank range.

So you'd expect the victim to do a backwards summersault right? Nope, this guy took to one knee and continued talking until bystanders intervened.

Guns are reasonably effective at ending arguements started by the other guy. But if the man being shot at knows you mean to kill him, don't expect him to just roll over.

[Carbonator]

Things that struck me watching the lawyer shooting video:

The shooter in the video was either trying to make his shots less-than lethal, more to make a point than to actually kill the guy, or he was simply grossly/absurdly under skilled as to how to shoot his gun.

Not to sound insensitive or off, but if the shooter had been one of us who "crossed over and went postal" on the lawyer, with the same weapon and an intent to kill, I'm pretty confident the lawyer would be dead.

[mini14jac]

When my oldest daughter got an apartment, I got her a hammerless Taurus .38.
Started her out on 11x17 IDPA targets.
Then, made her grab her revolver from a table, and shoot quickly.
By the time I moved her up to a full size silhouette, she was deadly:
5 shots in a tight group in COM.

Took my wife to the range Saturday.
Her guns are a S&W Centennial .38, and a KelTec P32.
With either, she can empty the gun into COM quicker than I can.
(And I'm the one who goes to the range every week! :uhoh: )

Both women feel "empowered" by having skill with a gun.
They are proud of their abilities.
And I'm confident that they can take care of themselves, should the need ever arise.

Know you gun, and your ammo.
Practice. Practice. Practice.

And, all together now:
SHOT PLACEMENT.

[Litlman]

Shot placement???

[George Hill]

mini14jac = THR Father of the Month Nomination.

I think a lot of people would be very suprised of the accuracy a 2 inch barreled small revolver can be. You should have seen the looks on the faces of my police academy class when I outshot them with a 2" M10.
A .38 Snub may not be the hammer of Thor - but it will do, if you do your part.

[Caliburn]

Quote:
mini14jac = THR Father of the Month Nomination.

Hear, hear!

For the nutcase and the lawyer, you have to give the lawyer credit for making the most out of the available cover. It looked like a Tom and Jerry cartoon, but it worked for him.

On the other hand, if all the cover you have is a sapling, and the guy trying to kill you has that weak of a grip on his gun, you might be better off rushing him if you have any martial arts experience. The nutcase looked pretty out of shape and probably couldn't have resisted too much.

The important lesson from that video is this: you can be downtown, surrounded by people on a crowded sidewalk, on a bright sunny afternoon, but if suddenly some nutcase starts shooting at you in front of everybody - no one is going to help you. Twenty cameramen filmed it, and the one guy pointed at the nut as he walked away. But even with being right outside the courthouse it took an officer about a minute to come running. If the nutcase hadn't been completely incompetent, the lawyer would have been dead.

Let's hope that lawyer realizes what a close one he had and responds to it maturely, learning some situational awareness and self defense and personal protection. Too bad it was Cali, he'll probably go the wrong way and start devoting time to the Brady confiscators.
:rolleyes: :banghead:

[Coronach]

This entire thread was summed up nicely ont he first page:Now you know the reason that the outside rings on a B27 are such low numbers.And there you have it.

Mike :)

[4thHorseman]

So, did we determine whether it was a .22 or a .38 used?:confused:

[surfinUSA]

It doesn't matter both will work with COM hits. Neither will with misses or only hits to extremities.

[4thHorseman]

It doesn't matter both will work with COM hits. Neither will with misses or only hits to extremities.

surfinUSA, it matters to me. That is why I asked the question.

[tiberius]

It doesn't matter both will work with COM hits.


You sure about that? If you said "tear duct" I'd agree.

[Sean Smith]

Faith in a handgun cartridge is like worshiping a poodle. It might or might not like it, but doing so does you little good. Heck, I don't have faith that perfect hits with 10mm Auto will work with certainty, and that's 2-4x the muzzle energy of .38 Special.

[4thHorseman]

It doesn't matter both will work with COM hits. Neither will with misses or only hits to extremities.


Many things matter in OSS. One thing is certainly caliber size. I know.... all of the comments from the small caliber size people stating caliber size is unimportant. Heard them all.
ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL, caliber size has alot to do with it. Especially in hand guns where velocity is not near that of a rifle.
The US Army thought so when adopted the 1911 .45 cal.
If this was not the case, all the law enforcement agencies and armies of the world would be carrying the 22 cal or the .17 cal that is out now.
I believe, as many do, a 22 to the shoulder may slow a BG down, but a .44 mag to the shoulder will take the BG shoulder almost off.

[George Hill]

4thHorseman - What are you talking about? A 5.56MM to the shoulder will blow the arm completely off from the shockwave of that hyperwarp velocity bullet... Head too sometimes, because that happened in Nam, you see... then it will turn around and come back and travel through the bones like a tourist lost on a french city roadway... then when it exits, it sucks all the guts out the basketball sized hole in the back... while leaving only a small hole in the front.

[4thHorseman]

Hi George, good to see you post again. It's been a while since I caught any of your posts.
George note, I said hand gun, not rifle.;) I also said "ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL" That I meant velocity also.;)

[444]

I am, and always have been a big bore fan. But, I think the big bullets come into play far more with marginal hits. If the shots are good COM shots, the caliber matters somewhat less.

[antediluvianist]

For what it's worth, here in the Philippines - land of the Moro warrior that caused the U.S. Army to go to .45 cal. - gunfights are, well, not that uncommon, and .45 is THE caliber of choice.

.357 Magnum, .44 Magnum and other (powerful) revolver cartridges are impressive and deadly , but it is believed that in a gunfight a shooter can generally fire off two or three rounds from a 1911 to every one round from a revolver. Partly it's the lighter trigger of the 1911, partly the manageable recoil while still launching a very effective big bullet. Rapidity of aimed fire and an effective, big bullet. Not the most powerful cartridge but an excellent compromise.

[SirVette]

OK, OK! I didn't know it was a .22! ...
Changes the picture definitely. also: ...
CWL

Many police go their entire careers w/o firing their gun though many are taken into custody w/ it.
Has nothing to do w/ 38. Police have effectively used 38 for years.
One reason the police want a high power gun is to penetrate cars.

Completely a different set of conclusions than originally posted.
A report you won't see in the papers:
DumbA attack fails. Despite (landscaping failure to provide larger tree) victim utilies too small tree to save his life.
After attacker shoots at left arm of victim until out of ammo, the victim could have pulled a 22 from his shoe ...

[George Hill]

"Has nothing to do w/ 38. Police have effectively used 38 for years."

Which is why they used .357 Magnums for as long as it's been available. Still being used in many places. In many of these places, going to say a high cap 9MM really doesn't give that much of an advantage considering the training has all been set up for the revolvers.
But is this a .38 Special issue or is it a Revolver issue?