[newgunmike]

ok so my sister called me today asking if she should get a .25acp for self defense and i think i convinced her to not buy it. she wants a small gun that can fit into her purse for under $300, she said she wanted a gun that would hurt someone but not kill them:eek:. i am going to explain in detail to why why that is the dumbest thought ever tomorrow.:cuss:

so i need a list of guns that are small and under or around $300 chambered in .380 or 9mm. i would search but im on my luch break.

[Coyote3855]

KelTec P3AT. But before she buys a gun, she should take a class where they will explain in detail "the hurt but not kill" thing. You can tell her, but my sister won't listen to anything I say. Maybe your's is different.

[PX15]

JMOfartO:

Please suggest to your sister, (can't tell a woman anything, I've been married almost 42 years.. Trust me on this.) that in YOUR opinion a 25cal. pistol is not necessarily the "best" choice for her.

If she is determined to get a pistol, vs a revolver, then there are a zillion 380cal. pistols on the market, and more coming daily. If the 380cal. is too "stout" for her likings, plenty of 32cal. pistols available too..

But I'm an old fart (almost 67) and from over half a century of experience with firearms, handguns in particular, I would SUGGEST a pistol of any caliber or description is not the "best" choice for someone with limited experience with firearms.

IF your sister were MY sister, daughter, granddaughter (get the picture?) I would recommend a quality 38cal. revolver. In fact I would just buy that person a Smith & Wesson J-frame (or if she insists let her use her money).

There are hundreds, heck probably thousands of good used J-frames for sale all over the place. Most of them were seldom even fired, and spent most of their time stashed away, in the same manner your sister will probably stash away whatever firearm she winds up with.

I've had J-frames of one model or another for over 40 years, and never had one to malfunction in any way.. If your sister had a J-frame all has to do is put 5 rounds in the appropriate holes in the cylinder. and then if danger comes her way, pull the trigger 5 times..

Not sure that "shoot to hurt" business makes any sense... Ok, it makes NO sense, but her brain is working the way it's working so no sense in even saying more about that.

I am willing to bet that, heaven forbid, she HAD to use a firearm in defense of her life she wouldn't be aiming for a flesh wound on the threat, she'd just be "pointing and pulling" until the threat was stopped or she was out of ammo.

I recommend you TEACH her to practice shooting from 3 yards (yep, 9') with just a point and pull method.. She will hit the target from that practice distance, and that will increase her confidence, and that's a good thing.:what:

Don't be looking for logic in her desires, just love her for being a good sister (well, I assume she's been a good sister.. Crap if she's been a bad sister :barf:then let her buy a 25ca. Raven and go on about your business... Just kiddn')

I'm sure someon wiser than myself (not too much required to do that) will come along with a better suggestion.

But I'm telling ya, a good revolver is hard to beat, especially for someone not "into" guns.

No offense to those who might disagree.. I could be wrong, been wrong before.

Best Wishes,

Jesse

P.S. IF your sister is determined to get a "pistol" then for her budget I'd suggest the Ruger LCP, or KelTec P3AT... There are other great choices, but the best bang for the buck (no pun intended) would probably be one of these two.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_5040.jpg

[1KPerDay]

I have a Browning 25 and the ruger LCP is lighter and thinner. And shoots a much more effective round. And is under $300 if you look around.

A revolver is a better choice for new shooters, though, IMO


Hurt someone but not kill them, huh...

[Gunfighter123]

Good for you to tell her straight ---- a .25acp ain't much of a gun BUT it is still a gun. You may want to check out the Star Firestar and Firestar Plus ----- both are 9mm and hold either 7 rds. or 13 rds . I have had a Firestar Plus for about 10 years , have shot about 3000/4000 rds. thru it and it is both reliable and very accurate for its size -- the Firestar is about the same size as a 2" revolver -- the Firestar Plus is about a inch longer in the grip.

Photo of my Firestar Plus --- 13rd. mags;
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/Star9mm.jpg





HOWEVER ---- for someone that may not take the time to get used to a semi-auto , the .38 snub-nose is a very good choice.

[Tully M. Pick]

Tell her to get a .357 because it's smaller than a .380.

[CalebJns]

I carry a Kel-tec 32. I also work in a ministry related atmosphere, so a full size or even medium size is harder to conceal...

My thoughts on the caliber of gun is this...if she want to carry a .25 then she needs to put the time and effort into it, that it will require. Lets face it, I would say we would all agree that a .22, .25, and even a .32 would be considered a face and/or crotch gun. She needs to be able to place shots in that small of an area (no pun intended) under pressure and stressed. With calibers larger than that...you could reasonably hit someone anywhere and it "should" stop them...unless they are on drugs, etc. Me personally I don't have a desire to be shot by ANYTHING! A frozen paint ball hurts bad enough, I'll do my part to avoid anything more!

[ronto]

A 357 and/or 38 Special revolver is the best choice...check out a S&W "Lady Smith".
She wants to STOP the BG and not just HURT him...The 25 is the WORST choice she could make...a 22 or long finger nails would be a better choice than a 25.

[Fremmer]

At least she's being honest about her willingness (or fear) of using lethal force, you should respect that. So get her an effective less-lethal alternative. She should buy pepper spray. She can use it to protect herself, and it won't permanantly hurt someone. If she's unwilling to seriously hurt or kill someone, then she shouldn't carry a gun. JMHO.

[newgunmike]

first thanks everyone you guys helped. now i told her that we are going to a gun shop where they rent guns so she can try a bunch of different pistols and revolvers and see what she like.(and i get to play with some guns:D) then im gonna make sure she takes a class and understand that a gun is not something you just carry and use only when you need to but something she should familiarize herself with and get lots of practice. im just glad she asked me about the gun, or she might have bought it this saturday, and she doesn't know she needs to get a pistol purchase permit first.:eek:(danm nc laws:fire:) also ill make sure she gets her ccw permit and ill go to the range with her and hopefully we will have 1 more person on the pro-gun side.:)

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

Just get her some Cor bon +P+ and tell her they're magic bullets designed not to kill.

JOKE ALERT
WARNING WARNING
JOKE ALERT

[atomd]

Don't let her shoot things that are difficult and/or uncomfortable to shoot right away. If you give her an ultra light .38 snubby loaded with +p, she might put it down after a couple of rounds, say forget it and walk away. Also, if she can't hit the target with it...she may get discouraged and forget the idea too. Ideally, a .38 or a 9mm might be a better way to go for self defense, but it might not be the best thing for everyone to start with. Start small and move up. Don't push her too hard on anything.

[Leaky Waders]

"Tell her to get a .357 because it's smaller than a .380."

That made me spill drink on my keyboard :)

PX15 has great advice.

If she wants something non-lethal then maybe pepperspray on her keychain?

[The Lone Haranguer]

... she said she wanted a gun that would hurt someone but not kill them
This is a much bigger problem than her choice of caliber. Firing a handgun at someone is deadly force. If the situation did not justify deadly force, it did not justify shooting at all, period. Set her straight on this and work on the caliber later.

[jad0110]

Quote:
... she said she wanted a gun that would hurt someone but not kill them

This is a much bigger problem than her choice of caliber. Firing a handgun at someone is deadly force. If the situation did not justify deadly force, it did not justify shooting at all, period. Set her straight on this and work on the caliber later.

At least she's being honest about her willingness (or fear) of using lethal force, you should respect that. So get her an effective less-lethal alternative. She should buy pepper spray. She can use it to protect herself, and it won't permanantly hurt someone. If she's unwilling to seriously hurt or kill someone, then she shouldn't carry a gun. JMHO.

Agree 100% with these statements. In NC, as in most states, there is no legal difference between a wounded BG and a dead one. Certainly, there is a moral question here that your sister has considered, and she is not willing to take the life of another person, even if her own is in danger. That's a very personal thing that she'll have to address in her own way. That is the sort of thing that can lead to hesitation to pull the trigger in a life threatening encounter, perhaps even freezing. Not the kinda thing you want to do with a badguy closing in.

For now, I agree that pepper spray is probably her best option. If, one day, she her thoughts change on the use of deadly force, then you can help guide her in picking out a firearm.

[newgunmike]

well i talk to her today and explained what she needed to do to get a gun and the laws about using a gun in a sd situation and most of the laws. she didn't want to shoot to kill because she was uninformed and thought that if she killed someone in a sd sit. it would cause her more legal problems, but after i talked to her she understood and agreed to go test some guns this saturday and get her ccw permit. i thought it would be harder to convince her but she understood everything, maybe its because she knows i looked up all this stuff for myself and she trusts me or she just really gets it.either way we will soon have another person on our side and my sister will be safe and secure.

[Grey Morel]

The .32 isn't a terrible option either.

These days, even a .22lr with modern ammunition will far out-penetrate a .25acp.

you may also want to consider a 38 revolver.

Most of those micro 380's & pocket 9mms have a lot of snap in their recoil. If you talk her into buying one, I doubt she will want to practice with it.

I would be pointing her towards a PPK in 32, or a Sig 232 in 380. Those guns are still quire small, but there greater size and steel construction will absorb quite a bit of recoil over a P32 or P3AT size gun.

[hammerklavier]

Tell her since she would rather not kill anyone, a little tiny auto would not be good because any determined criminal seeing that would just laugh. But revolvers, now there's an intimidating looking gun. Get a J frame .38 instead.

[bigeye]

FIRST she should call her insurance carrier and see that she has a minimum of $1 million in liability. (no, that is not a smart A** answer, I mean it._) Once she is sure of that, she can 'hurt' someone with a concealed .25 (But not kill them) and her insurance will cover the law suit she has slapped on her for heinous injuries.
If you need to shoot someone, you need to kill them. If you shoot someone after publicly broadcasting you only want to 'hurt' them, you absolutely will need the insurance agent on your side. (Good luck) policy or not.
I will take a beating before I kill someone. ONCE I am confident I will not walk away from the encounter alive, it is time to KILL my attacker. She needs a session with a good civil attorney before she takes on this burden. (and it IS a burden) She will be able to make up her mind after that session. Remind her, she only gets ONE chance at this. Best of luck to her, honestly. She needs help and you can help her through this.

[snakeman]

i would go with a 22 with stinger rounds before a 25 anyday. Might I suggest a Rossi snubbie or a Bond Arms derringer or some sort. Even a 22mag snubbie.

[w_houle]

ok so my sister called me today asking if she should get a .25acp for self defense and i think i convinced her to not buy it. she wants a small gun that can fit into her purse for under $300, she said she wanted a gun that would hurt someone but not kill them.
Trying to figure out what the underlying issue is here. If she wants a .25, then fine. She's grown and can do that, as far as SD???
Meh, I'm not making assumptions as to what's going on: Your life, do what you will, bu my thoughts are to merely have you throw out the ones and to let her add them up. Her choosing her first gun might be a confidence booster. Take her shooting.

[chris in va]

I had a guy at work tell me the same exact thing. "Don't want to KILL them, just make them run if they try to hurt me." :rolleyes:

It was funny, he was from Jersey and of a certain ethnicity, and knowing I was into guns came to me on the sly with the question. After our conversation though he was aware of the full legality of firearms ownership in Virginia with the proper qualifications.

[makarovnik]

Kel-Tec P32.

Actually let her get what she wants so she doesn't get turned off right away. Just make sure she gets a good reliable .25acp and hopefully it will feed Quick Shok.

Maybe after some practice she might want to step up in performance.

[.455_Hunter]

These days, even a .22lr with modern ammunition will far out-penetrate a .25acp.

Not quite...

When fired from the same short barrel (2" or so), the .25 ACP with the 50 gr. FMJ projectile will have higher energy and greater penetration than almost all available .22 LR loads. This traditional .25 ACP loading will penetrate around 14"-16" in ordnance gelatin (see brassfetcher.com).

Of course, all bets are off if your compare the performance of a 2" .25 ACP pocket pistol to a 6" .22 LR target revolver. Even worse, some people look at the ballistics charts and directly compare the .25 ACP (again 2" barrel) to the .22 LR out of a RIFLE length barrel.

I am not advocating everybody run out a buy a .25 ACP, but a citizen who is familiar and confident with their .25 ACP is a serious threat to the bad guys. A magazine full of 50 gr. FMJs to the torso is going to put even the most aggressive thug in the hurt locker.

The .25 ACP is a million times better than "please don't hurt me!" :barf:

[-eaux-]

the main thing you should be helping her understand is that she is trying to neither "hurt" nor "kill" anyone. ever.
if she is compelled to even draw a weapon on another person, it is to immediately stop a threat of bodily harm to herself or someone in her charge.
my dad always taught me: if you pull it and don't use it, you shouldn't have pulled it.
a close second in importance: aim for center mass. ;)

[David G.]

...the Ruger LCP.

[Diggers]

I would think she could fit a fair amount of gun in a purse. It really doesn't have to be some tiny framed .380 or .32 (or yeah even a .25 :o)

Couldn't she get get a .32, .380 or 9mm in a frame size that will fit her hand better AND will still fit nicely in her purse?

It will be much nicer for her to shoot a gun like that then one of those tiny ones. (Will hold more ammo too. :))

[army_husbandky]

You know, I had the same situation (wasn't my sister, was my wife) but she wanted a handgun, something she could use in the house and take with her on road trips as a glovebox gun, because she even realizes that I will not be around all the time (like right now, sitting in the middle of Iraq on my second deployment), so I got this idea to buy her a revolver, don't have to rack the slide, just point, aim, and pull the trigger. Bought her a Taurus Model 85 Ultra-Lite, needless to say she hates the gun, but she loves my XDm 9mm (sorry, paid $615 for the gun, she can't have it).

Long story short, best thing you can probably do is take her out to the gun range and let her try out some handguns, alot of gun ranges have pistols that you can rent, rent one and try it out. All in all, let her pick the weapon, this will put confidence in her weapon, then the more that she shoots it, the more her confidence will grow if you know what I mean. I would say to be by her side so you can give advice to her about a weapon to help her in her decision, don't make the decision for her, just help her out. In the end, she should make a good choice.

[DeepSouth]

Get her a 25 let her get comfortable with it, then start explaining how ineffective it is until she looses faith in it, then she'll want an upgrade and wallah you have won.

If that don't work show her one of the pink Kel-Tec's, she sounds like the kind of girl that would like them, she might be kin to my wife, LOL.

OH yeah, point her to www.corneredcat.com

[Ben86]

In my opinion the ruger lcp and kel-tec p3at are some of the most difficult guns to shoot because of their long heavy trigger pulls, almost non-existent sights and tiny diminutive grip that tries to jump from your hands as you shoot. I'm not bashing them, I have the lcp and appreciate it for it's purpose. But, I suggest getting something a little bigger but still small enough for a purse. A glock 26 would be my first recommendation but that will run you about $500. You might want to look into the kel-tec p-11, p-f9 or some of the Bersa Thunder guns. They are around $300. Do her a favor and don't let the caliber drop below .380.

[MM60]

Agree - don't let her buy anything in less than .380.

Disagree - the Ruger .380 is small, has short sights, and has a long trigger pull, but the sights are visible and the trigger pull is not heavy at all. I would not want to use the LCP in a combat situation, but I carry it with me every day for SD purposes. It is very light, thin, accurate, and reasonably powerful. Whatever it is that you carry: you're probably going to carry it everywhere you go - all the time, but you're probably not going to actually have to shoot it very much. If I have to choose between a pistol that is comfortable to carry or one that is comfortable to shoot - I'll carry the one that's comfortable to carry.

You might want to suggest to your sister that she look for a nicely-made high-quality handgun. The Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP are practically the same gun, but the Ruger is much better quality and makes the Kel-Tec look like a toy. I sold my Kel-Tec to buy the Ruger as soon as the LCP was available.

I would definitely not encourage your sister to buy a revolver. A revolver may be marginally simpler to use for the first five or six shots, but if she is ineffective with those - there is probably no chance of her reloading. It would be much much faster and simpler to drop the empty mag, put in a new one, and rack the slide (2 seconds to change mags compared to 15 seconds to reload a cylinder). And if she would carry a revolver with a speed loader, she might as well just carry any compact semi-auto and carry the same number of rounds in one magazine - it would take up the same amount of space and there'd be no reloading involved. Either the Sig P239 or HK USP Compact would be ideal for SD carry in a purse. I personally can't think of any SD situation where a revolver would be better than a semi-auto; large-caliber revolvers are useful against some animals, but small-caliber/small-frame revolvers are outdated and impractical for all purposes as far as I'm concerned.

[BHP FAN]

''small-caliber/small-frame revolvers are outdated and impractical for all purposes as far as I'm concerned...''
ROTFLMAO! I'm sure I'm not the only one who has read many an obituary on the demise of the revolver.Didn't happen in the last century,and it ain't gonna happen in this one.

[MM60]

BHP FAN, would you want to use a small .38 Special revolver against somebody with a Sig P239 or an H&K USP? What about using a small .38 Special revolver against five big guys who are about to mug you with whatever weapons they might be carrying? If you could remain level-headed, you would have about one shot per mugger until after your 15-second reload. I'd much rather have a semi-auto. Revolvers for SD are outdated because semi-autos are available - unlike during most of the 1800's when revolvers and single-shots were all that was available. I'm not saying that revolvers for SD are completely useless, but they are definitely outdated.

[oneounceload]

While the 38 most certainly has merit, I would not rule out 327 Federal, now chambered by both Ruger and S&W. With it, she can shoot 4 similar cartridges from mild to wild or somewhere in between, according to her comfort level.

[Grey Morel]

Not quite...

When fired from the same short barrel (2" or so), the .25 ACP with the 50 gr. FMJ projectile will have higher energy and greater penetration than almost all available .22 LR loads. This traditional .25 ACP loading will penetrate around 14"-16" in ordnance gelatin (see brassfetcher.com).

Excuse me Sir, but I AM looking at Brassfetcher.com. And no, I'm not looking at a 6" revolver or a rifle. I'm looking at the 3" Walther P22 test, in which 4 different loading penetrated from 12-16" depending.

The 4 types of .25acp FMJ ammo tested on that same site ranged from 11-16" penetration depending on brand. Hollow points fall short of that, averaging 7-8".

.22LR loads exist that will out penetrate most 25 FMJ loads, and match the penetration of the best, even from a compact handgun. Unles you want to argue that an inch or less of barrel is throwing the results, there is no denying the numbers.

[Deanimator]

BHP FAN, would you want to use a small .38 Special revolver against somebody with a Sig P239 or an H&K USP?
Absolutely. Of course I intend to hit as many times as it takes for him to stop being a threat. I don't care how many times he misses.

[GRIZ22]

she said she wanted a gun that would hurt someone but not kill them.

Before you suggest different guns you need to get her straightened out on this.

[Deanimator]

I would ask her to give me an example where a violent criminal intentionally shot or stabbed somebody so as NOT to kill them. Other than acts of torture where the victim was subsequently murdered, I doubt she can.

[.455_Hunter]

.22LR loads exist that will out penetrate most 25 FMJ loads, and match the penetration of the best, even from a compact handgun. Unless you want to argue that an inch or less of barrel is throwing the results, there is no denying the numbers.

I agree with you on one point for sure- the .25 ACP hollow points do not have enough penetration.

The P22's 3.4" barrel is 42% longer than the Beretta's 2.4" barrel- not insignificant in my book.

In identical Beretta 21's, the .25 ACP 50 FMJs will average about 80 fpe, with the .22 LRs averaging about 60 fpe. Not much, but also given the the .25 ACP's more reliable centerfire primer and jacketed round nose projectile for smooth feeding, I would take the .25 ACP over a .22LR in a compact CCW auto any day.

I wish that Brassfetcher's site had results from both .25 and .22 Berettas, that would make the direct comparison much easier.

:)

[rmfnla]

To those who prefer a .22 over a .25 because of an inch or two of penetration, keep in mind that the rimless .25 case & jacketed bullet are more conducive to reliable feeding than the .22 (and the case is probably better for extraction as well).

I occasionall slip a Beretta Jetfire (hey, it's good enough for 007! :D) into my pocket, expecially if I am dressed lightly. I am fully aware of the .25's power limitations but the gun is very accurate, feeds flawlwsly, and I honestly cannot imagine anyone wanting to do anything other than get to the hospital after getting hit in the face 5 or 6 times.

[mljdeckard]

Because using a handgun is always a bad idea. (We carry them because sometimes it's the ONLY option.) In picking a .25 she is getting the absolute worst in a class of cartridges that are inadequate to begin with.

Jeff Cooper wrote something to the effect of: "If you must carry a .25 ACP pistol, whatever you do, do not load it, for if you load it, you may be tempted to shoot someone with it, and if that person finds out, they might be very upset."

Seriously, it's the worst of all worlds, short on penetrating power, range, velocity, energy, accuracy, and self-respect. ANYTHING is better than this cartridge. I will not let anyone who I actually care if they live or die carry a .25. I normally say get at least a 9mm, but I would be relieved if they got a .380 instead of a .25.

[BHP FAN]

I'm a big fan of autos....the Browning Hi Power is my favorite gun of all time....narrowly edging out my second favorite,the 1911,also a Browning design.
That said,there's a lot to be said for the snub in .327,.357 or plain vanilla .38.There's even the 940,in 9mm to match your duty or primary weapon for caliber...there's utter dependability.You're not spraying your brass around.With moon clips,reload speeds are quick,and again,no spilled brass.

[Psalm 144:1]

Would she consider a Taser? It meets the requirements of "hurt, but not kill" and around $300. It allows engagement from a distance without the concerns of use in a confined space or the wind blowing it back in her face. It's better than a handgun for someone who is untrained because it doesn't matter where you hit the BG, it WILL stop him. The new ones have a light and laser aiming device and even come in "pretty" fashion colors. I know it might be an anathema to suggest a taser on a gun website, but it may be the best option for all - considering her mindset...

[azyogi]

Just go ahead and appeal to her fashion sense, tell her the .25 is as out of style as a hoop skirt.

[BHP FAN]

Check Kimber's site.They have the mother of all pepper spray guns,a little two shot,blank powered,palm size life-saver!

[Marlin 45 carbine]

if you have a shooting buddy that owns a good quality da .22LR revolver ask to borrow it to let her run some rounds through it. 'Terminator' rounds.
even better anyone you know that has a good (Beretta maybe) .32acp ask if they will let her try it out at about 10' range. the larger .32's have little 'kick' but lots of 'wallop' on the recieving end.

[BHP FAN]

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[BHP FAN]

I know,I'm supposed to be suggesting a gun,but if she doesn't really want to use one,she may hesitate...long enough for the worst to happen.

[Gryffydd]

It would be much much faster and simpler to drop the empty mag, put in a new one, and rack the slide (2 seconds to change mags compared to 15 seconds to reload a cylinder). And if she would carry a revolver with a speed loader, she might as well just carry any compact semi-auto and car
you would have about one shot per mugger until after your 15-second reload.
Hey, they make these really cool things for reloading revolvers--they're called "Speed Loaders" and they take a LOT less than 15 seconds to use.
Also, by quoting 2 seconds for the auto reload you're assuming she'd actually practice and be proficient at it, but would not do the same thing with a revolver?

Also, to all the people NOT reading the thread before posting, the whole hurting without killing thing has already been resolved, thanks.

[newgunmike]

thank you gryffydd, yes she is going to get a gun and she understands that if she has to use it she will shoot to stop(kill) the bg.
im gonna go to the range saturday with her and we're going to try out alot of different guns, semi-autos and revolvers, and get the one that best fits her hand and she likes the most, and of course the one she shoots best.and she is going to take the ccw class and hopefully become a regular visitor to the range.

[Diggers]

A couple of things.

First, the .25 FMJ will go 14 to 16 inches in gel tests? :confused: Humm not sure we can really say its worthless then if its passing the FBI standard.......sure there is better to be had but still.

Second the taser, while not a bad idea, still it takes skill and practice to use correctly AND it DOES NOT work on everyone.

I've seen video of training sessions where cops (not some methed up tweaker) are able to fight through the pain and attack the officer who shot the taser. :what: Yeah these are unusual people but it can be done.

[jad0110]

Would she consider a Taser? It meets the requirements of "hurt, but not kill" and around $300.

IIRC, some jurisdictions consider the use of a tazer to be a form of lethal force, as there have been quite a few people killed by them. They are less lethal, not nonlethal. Not sure about NC, I've never looked into it.

---

To the OP, you've been pretty saturated with suggestions so far, so I won't list anymore. But I think you've got the right idea: When you go out, just do so with the idea of taking guns for a "test drive". No pressure to purchase. Get a feel for what she likes and what she doesn't. Then, you can give her guidance and some suggestions, but ultimately the decision must be hers. A gun is a lot like a pair of shoes; someone else can't tell you what you are gonna like.

---

Okay, I really don't want to drift this thread but ... I gotta stand with Gryffydd.

BHP FAN, would you want to use a small .38 Special revolver against somebody with a Sig P239 or an H&K USP? What about using a small .38 Special revolver against five big guys who are about to mug you with whatever weapons they might be carrying? If you could remain level-headed, you would have about one shot per mugger until after your 15-second reload.

Sure. I shoot J-Frame .38s FAR, FAR, FAR better than equivalent sized autos. My groups with a Kel-Tec or baby Glock are measured in feet, while they are measured in inches with my 642. But I usually carry a 2" 6-shot Model 15, as I shoot it better still. Better than my 1911 in fact. So for me, it is quality over quantity, though there is certainly nothing wrong with having more ammo. But it is not the only criteria in selecting a handgun for serious purposes, IMHO. Hitting the target is a biggie, and there are still plenty of us out there that do better with the "obsolete" wheel gun. If I were armed with a little compact auto, my only hope would be to hurtle enough lead towards the BG(s) that hopefully, eventually, said BG(s) might walk into a piece of it :o :D.

And I practice revolver reloads quite a bit. I can do a revolver reload as fast or nearly as fast as an auto reload. And if you don't practice, the auto reload can be flubbed pretty badly as well, such as fumbling and dropping the mag (it is kinda slippery, after all), or even trying to shove it in backwards in the heat of the moment. Heck, I've done that once, maybe twice with my 1911 just punching holes in paper!

Tying this back into the OP, the point is your sister's mindset and training will do a lot more to save her in a serious encounter than the platform she is carrying, assuming it functions reliably. As someone else said earlier, a 25 ACP is still many, many times better than "please don't hurt me". Taking the CCW class is a great place to start.

Drop me a PM sometime. I live in NC as well, so if you happen to be nearby and my schedule allows (December is pretty hectic for us all), maybe I can let your sister try out a few of my guns.

[rogertc1]

This one would be good...

http://calzaretta.com/scans/500-es.jpg

[Blakenzy]

Similar discussion:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=466805

[KBintheSLC]

To the OP,

My wife has been very happy with the KelTec P32... enough power to do more than just hurt someone, but still mild on the recoil and very reliable. They run about $250

My groups with a Kel-Tec or baby Glock are measured in feet, while they are measured in inches with my 642.

Dude... nothing against the 642... I love em. But if you are shooting groups that measure in feet with a baby Glock at self defense ranges, your problem is not the gun. Even the KelTec is capable of sub 6" groups at 10 yards off hand.

[jad0110]

Dude... nothing against the 642... I love em. But if you are shooting groups that measure in feet with a baby Glock at self defense ranges, your problem is not the gun. Even the KelTec is capable of sub 6" groups at 10 yards off hand.

Oh, I agree it is me. Nothing wrong with either gun. And my statement did contain a bit of hyperbole, though my groups with guns like Kel-Tech P3ATs and Taurus PT 745s really do exceed a foot at 7 yds.

It's simply that neither one fits my hand well, at all. The KelTec P3AT/P32 in particular is just way too small for my hands (I am 6'7"). The palm of my hand is large enough that their is a pretty good amount of air space between my hand and the gun, no matter how tightly I try to squeeze, so I have a hard time holding onto the thing. Plus the I practically have to pull the trigger with the 2nd joint of my trigger finger :p.

OTH, the 642's grip frame is prominent enough that I can get a sufficient purchase on it. Actually, it feels pretty good with my stong hand pinky finger curled up under the butt of the gun. And it points pretty natually for me.

With the baby Glock, well, it aint quite a foot - more like 10" at 7 yds. I've never been able to shoot Glocks all that well; the ergos just don't agree with me. Don't care for the trigger much either. Nice gun and all, got a ton of respect for them, just not my cup of tea. I do okay with XDs though. Not great, but okay, as they do feel more natural to me.

[searcher451]

The fact that your sister is interested in guns and is willing to carry one is huge. Getting into a caliber war with her is, in my opinion, a mistake. Instead, help her to try out a variety of handguns invarious shapes and sizes and calibers and then select one that best fits her hand and eye. Pointing out that a .32 is better than a .25, and that a .380 is better than a .32, might be worthwhile in passing conversation-- but I'd spend more time helping her select a gun that she's comfortable with.

[Brian Dale]

How was the range trip, newgunmike? :)

[bad_aim_billy]

If she wants a .25, good for her. Anyone who says that a criminal will "laugh when they see it" has been watching too many Steven Seagal movies.

Wait, I forgot what site I'm on. Tell her that only a .454 will put fear into a bad guy.

[KBintheSLC]

If she wants a .25, good for her. Anyone who says that a criminal will "laugh when they see it" has been watching too many Steven Seagal movies.

Wait, I forgot what site I'm on. Tell her that only a .454 will put fear into a bad guy.

I agree. Even though a 25 acp is the bottom of the barrel of defensive calibers, it will kill if placed properly. If she wants something that will merely hurt someone, she should get a can of mace and a taser.

[Confederate]

The best type of pistol, in my view, is a medium-frame revolver in .357. For carry, I'd use .38 +P; for home and travel, I'd go with .357 125gr JHP. If she lives in an apartment, I'd also go with .38 +P.

I'm also a big advocate of a good grade pepper spray like Cold Steel's Inferno, which works on man or beast and requires no permit. An inert can for practice certainly doesn't hurt, either.

My favorite house gun is a Ruger Speed-Six with a 3-inch barrel. It's a good carry gun, too.

[NMGonzo]

Lie to her.

Tell her that a .380 is going only to only hurt the attacker.

Hollow points are harmless; kittens and puppies will just be annoyed by them.

[SalchaketJoe]

IMO your sister should be educated and undergo a serious awakening attitude wise well before she carries a weapon.

[newgunmike]

well we went to the range and tried 6 different guns.3 auto's and 3 revolvers and the one she shot best and liked the most was the bersa thunder .380. not the smallest by a long shot but small enough to fit in her purse with ease. she now need to get her ccw permit but that shouldn't be a problem, she shot the .380 really well. i showed her how to use it and she caught on fast and with a little practice she could out shoot me.:o(which reminds me i need to go practice some more:D)

now i just need to make sure she understands what kind of ammo she needs to buy but i already bought here 100rds of jhp and 100rds of fmj and explained the differences to her and when she should use what.only problem is they only had 100rds of each so i didn't get any.:fire:;)

[jad0110]

100 rounds of each in .380 is pretty darned good these days.

The Bersa is a nice feeling little gun. I don't recall ever getting to shoot one, but I bet they would point pretty well in my hands. I thought about getting one, but figured I'd go for a CZ-82 since I now have my C&R license. Nice work guiding her to a gun that she actually enjoys shooting!

The CCW class will be another good step. If she needs more training, don't be shy to encourage her to seek it out.

[Brian Dale]

...the one she shot best and liked the most was the bersa thunder .380...{snip}...she shot the .380 really well.As the wise man said, "Buy the one that you shoot the best."

Well done in getting her out to try several before choosing one. In fact, Well Done all around, Sir.

[Fremmer]

You're lucky she didn't shoot a Sig the best. I did, and now I'm stuck saving for the gun. I have the mags, just not the gun. Ug! :cuss:

[TimM]

HOWEVER ---- for someone that may not take the time to get used to a semi-auto , the .38 snub-nose is a very good choice.

JMO, but I think a snub is the worst gun for a new shooter to purchase... especially someone that probably isn't going to shoot much. Don't get me wrong, I love my snubbies but they are extremely hard for a novice to shoot accurately.

[Madcap_Magician]

I recommend against the J-frame .38. I find this is a very common recommendation for first-time CCWing women with little firearms experience.

The reason you find so many of them used in good condition is because a ton of people had someone recommend them for a first-time gun and then shot it. Once.

The recoil is stout on all the lightweight ones. Accuracy takes a good deal of practice. If you MUST recommend a J-frame, get a steel one and use the full-size Hogue grips. New shooters will thank you for it.

[NMGonzo]

My vegetarian, liberal gf can hit the 6 and the 4 inch paddle @ 20 meters with the bersa.

[KBintheSLC]

My vegetarian, liberal gf can hit the 6 and the 4 inch paddle @ 20 meters with the bersa.

My heart goes out to you.

[daveinvegas]

Tell your sister to buy a Colt Defender. Show her how light the gun is and load it with Glaser SAFETY SLUGS.

Let's not forget what Col. Cooper told his female operatives during WWII about carrying .25 acp autos.

[Landric]

I'm glad to hear that the OP's sister selected something a little more potent than the .25 ACP. That said, while the .25 auto wouldn't be my first choice for self-defense, it is keeping with the rule of having a gun being the first rule of gunfighting. Most .25 pistols are small and light, though perhaps not as light as some of the current plastic pistols. Unlike the plastic guns in .380 ACP, a metal .25 auto is actually pleasant to shoot, and easily faster on shot to shot times. For a non-gun person who wants a small, light automatic, the .25 isn't the worst choice in the world, one just has to understand its limitations. Every gun is a trade off of some kind.

I couldn't carry a .25 if I wanted to, my department doesn't allow anything smaller than .380 ACP on or off-duty. However, while I actually enjoy burning off rounds in a .25, I can't say that I enjoy shooting my Airweight .38 Special at all. Being a "gun guy" I accept the unpleasant nature of the Airweight as the trade off for the size and weight. If I were someone just looking for an easy to carry handgun that wouldn't beat me up on the range, I'd probably find some of the various high quality .25 autos on the market (Beretta 950, PSA 25, etc.) pretty appealing.

[Dr.Mall Ninja]

Tell her to get a .357 because it's smaller than a .380."
that gave me a good laugh


My vegetarian, liberal gf can hit the 6 and the 4 inch paddle @ 20 meters with the bersa. whoa liberal gf , thats scary i did the vegetarian thing, i could deal with that but liberal, thats a different story.

[T. Bracker]

The Ruger SP101 in .327 Federal might be a great choice. As mentioned, it will shoot any of the other .32 revolver rounds, some of which are quite mild as she works up to the full house .327 magnum rounds. Good thought.

[W.E.G.]

My sister had one for years.

I finally confiscated it.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/AstraFirecat.jpg

I had a spare one of these, so I made her take it.
She didn't put up too much fight.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd7/rkba2da/pistol%20pics/RugerSecuritySix.jpg

...and don't none of y'all ask if you can be my sister! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3iEOO9p6Ok)

[woad_yurt]

....but small enough to fit in her purse with ease....

Purse carry isn't secure. A handbag is the priority target on a woman.

I was with someone when a guy snatched her bag. It took 1/2 second, really. Then, he was into the crowd and around the corner in a flash. Unless one was an Olympic runner, there was no way to stop the guy. It was over in the blink of an eye.

I don't think guns or keys should be kept in a purse. You don't really wanna give 'em a gun, your address and your keys all at once, right?

BTW, congratulations on seeing her through getting something a little more powerful than the .25.