[badbadtz560]

I'm currently looking for an 18" 12gauge autoloader/semi-auto shotgun (<$1000) for my small firearms collection. Unfortunately, I'm not particularly satisfied w/ what I've found out so far. Can anyone enlighten me on the pros/cons of these models w/ the possibility of adding more to my list?

Basically I want the cheapest gun that's also the most reliable :D What? they don't go together? well that's why I'm compiling a list of options :D

Primary purpose will be to shoot for fun at a gun range. secondary purpose? home defense. Third purpose? maybe I'll get in to skeet shooting if I find an outdoor range close by.

concerns:
1) reliability (I'd like something that's relatively clean)
2) price
3) weight

-) FN SLP
-) Remington 11-87
-) Benelli M3
-) Benelli M1
-) Benelli M4
-) Saiga-12

My current collection is all HKs. The only reason they aren't glocks is b/c I dont like glock grips or triggers compared to HK. What I mean by telling u this is that I like guns that require low maintenance, have a good track record for reliability, and are fairly customizable w/ reasonable access to spare parts.

So can anyone give me some pro/cons of those above models, typical pricing, and possibly recommend others to me?

[627PCFan]

You got some contradicitons working here-

"an 18" 12gauge autoloader/semi-auto shotgun (<$1000)" --Not many made in that configuration. Most HD/Tactical SG are pump for a reason with exception of Benellis and they are over 1k.

"I'll get in to skeet shooting if I find an outdoor range close by." -- no range is letting you shoot skeet with a 18" barrel. You might want to buy a supplementary bird barrel at least 26" long

The shortest you could cut a semi auto barrel down would be where the gas ports are in the barrel and if you cut to close the barrel wont retain enough pressure long enough to cycle the gun.

[ArmedBear]

Mossberg 930 series

[oneounceload]

Along with the above, what's the concern regarding weight? Do you want as light as possible (not practical from a recoil perspective), or do you want heavy for recoil absorption and a smooooooth swing?

[627PCFan]

Oneounce, how much lead for a perp moving 6mph down the hallway?:evil:

[oneounceload]

Oneounce, how much lead for a perp moving 6mph down the hallway?

An amount equal to his weight going at him about 1200fps should work....:D

[badbadtz560]

In terms of skeet shooting. I guess you can remove the maybe along w/ the third purpose :D lol. I would go up to 22" .. but 26" just seems too long for me.

In terms of weight, which ones will be heavier and smoother.. and which ones of those are the lighter ones? I'm more interested in all the differences at this point so I can compile a list to try out and see which I like. For now I think I will want something on the more maneuverable side. However, if I can handle the weight, I'll keep goin up the list until I find something too heavy

In terms of price.. If i'm being too cheap, let's move it up to 1.5k? I thought I saw fn slp and 1187s for less than 1k though.

[oneounceload]

Most target shooter use 30 inch or longer barrels - really makes the swing (and subsequent success at hitting the target) much easier.

Light gun, especially with hot loads equals massive (and potentially debilitating) recoil

[badbadtz560]

so basically 18-22" barrel and moving clay just don't go together?

[627PCFan]

Lets just say it would be a hell of a learning curve for an amateur.

[Yo Mama]

^ Short barrel is how I learned. It's actually easier as the spread opens up on the shorty.

I used to get more birds in the field with it also.

Biggest concern would be reaching out and touching them farther away which the short barrel would not accomplish.

[badbadtz560]

Can I assume my list above is a good starting point to try out since our discussion has moved in to the third priorities? :D

Can I atleast assume that 18-22" will be accurate to 50 yards? I have rarely shot beyond that distance

[Texpatriate]

I like my Mossberg 930SPX:
http://xtrooper.net/Mossberg1.jpg
(not my picture)

A Saiga 12 would be good too. And yes, you can shoot clays with an 18" barreled shotgun. You would be at a disadvantage in competition, but if you're just having fun, who cares?

[oneounceload]

Short barrel is how I learned. It's actually easier as the spread opens up on the shorty.

Biggest concern would be reaching out and touching them farther away which the short barrel would not accomplish.

***??....sorry, not even close to correct. Barrel length has NOTHING to do with patterns.....CHOKE has EVERYTHING to do with it...jeez - stop spreading BS on the net - both those statement are so far off base as to be pathetic

Barrel length has everything to do with having a smooth swing to hit a target - most clubs will not allow short barrels because they also present a noise issue

[MrCleanOK]

Can I atleast assume that 18-22" will be accurate to 50 yards? I have rarely shot beyond that distance

You'll want slugs to hit well at 50 yards, rifle or ghost ring sights would help too. Buckshot patterns tend to get some mighty big holes in them at that kind of range. Also, short factory barrels for autoloaders are typically 20 inches. Short pumps are typically 18.5 or 20 inches. Field barrels (for birds, etc.) typically start at 26" and go up in two-inch increments.

My best advice, which is probably not what you want to hear, would be to buy a cheap pump that is close to the configuration you want in an autoloader (used Remington 870 or Mossberg 500) and shoot the crap out of it. When you are better familiar with how shotguns handle and what their (and your) capabilities are, sell off the pump (or keep it), and then plunk down as much change as you want on an autoloader. I can tell you from first hand experience it sucks to throw down a lot of coin on something nice for your first "whatever item you want", then come to find with a little bit of first hand experience that you would have been happier with something just a little different.

Good luck

[jojo200517]

"I'll get in to skeet shooting if I find an outdoor range close by." -- no range is letting you shoot skeet with a 18" barrel. You might want to buy a supplementary bird barrel at least 26" long

Bull crap. Plenty of people break in there HD shotguns on our skeet and trap ranges. It lets them get a feel of how to aim and swing a shotgun and helps dispell the myth that its an instant cone of death and all you have to do is pull the trigger.

I will not say it will be easy to do with a short barrel but it can be done. You don't see it in competitions because you would be at a severe disadvantage.

Most of the youth shotguns have about a 20 inch barrel and kids learn to break the clays with them just fine.

[oneounceload]

Most of the youth shotguns have about a 20 inch barrel and kids learn to break the clays with them just fine.

Sorry to disagree - I have never seen youth guns on the clay courses with 20 inchers....they may be short with 26 inch ones though

[Gunfighter123]

At the 3 gun clubs I shoot with -- they all have no problem if you care to shoot Trap or Skeet with a "riot gun" .

Do a search here about the Saiga S-12s ----- VERY good shotguns for SD .
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/s12_3.jpg

[627PCFan]

"Bull crap. Plenty of people break in there HD shotguns on our skeet and trap ranges. "

Ill rephrase...Most reputable clay ranges don't allow barrels less than 24 inches due to noise and safety concerns..........

Of the 3 in the DC area, several in VA, and 1 in MD I have gone to, those are the rules and consistently so.


BadBad, point being pick the right tool for the job and have fun doing it. Never argue with a reason to buy another firearm :)

[david_the_greek]

Benelli M3Super90. Benelli reliability, black tactical scary, functional as all get out. Semiauto-pump convertible. Use your lethal rounds in semi, bean bags and other low powered rounds in the pump configuration. My fathers always ran 100%

[Diamondback6]

I'm working on planning a Saiga build for HD: a long-barrel, semi-only version of Abomination, complete with pushbutton-release bayonet just in case I have a B&E by a werewolf.:p

[badbadtz560]

gunfighter - I have done a lot of searching on saigas actually :D I was gonna buy a 7.62x39 and do a 922 compliance until I decided that an ar-15 would be easier for me to build (only built the lower)

saiga-12 18" was my next purchase until the price went up enough for me to consider other brands. If it had a nice bolt hold open come with it and came w/ pistol grip conversion form (mostly to improve trigger) for a price lower than all the others I would surely have purchased it.. but again.. the price has gone up enough for me to consider the others :D

that and I wanted a tube style shotgun rather than magazine fed... not particular reason - I just want that way

M3 sounds interesting if you can pump or shoot auto. I'll add it to the list :D thx

Can anyone comment on the FN SLP? It seems to not be talked about a lot, and the only comments I've heard about it seem to be very positive. On the other hand, the remingtons get a lot of variability in the quality side.. so I may remove the 1100 from the list. I am willing to pay xtra for a lesser chance of gettin a bad one

MR clean.. I may actually have to take your advice b/c the gunshops nearby don't seem to sell auto loading shotguns. But then again, all the ranges/stores I visit are pretty much pistol shops w/ a few popular hunting rifles. Either I'll expand my search or I may have to start by trying out pumps then ordering autos from online stores

Can someone elaborate on the differences b/w the benelli m1, m3, and m4?

[hub]

Here you go, Remington 100 TAC 2 or TAC 4. Both under $1000 and has just enough mall ninja bling to be effective and not overbearing. TAC 2 comes with a 18.5in IC barrel and the TAC 4 a 20in vent rib that accepts choke tubes.
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/model_1100/model_1100_tactical.asp

On the cheaper side the Mossberg 930 SPX looks ok too.

+1 to oneonceloads posts about barrel lengths and chokes. Length helps control swing and pattern/range is controlled by choke.

If you want to get serious at all into clay games go for a longer barrel that accepts choke tubes. If your going to your buddies farm for a day to bust a few clays in the pasture off that old thrower mounted in a tire then you could probably get by with a short barrel with no choke.

[badbadtz560]

if it makes a difference, it'll be more like going to buddy's farm to bust a few clays. I definitely don't shoot for competition. If a 22" allows me to go to an open range and bust a few clays that'd be awesome too.

I recall that my state is a bit more lenient than most. I live in atlanta or augusta (mostly in atlanta tho)... just incase someone can chime in on stores or ranges that I can visit for autoshottie purchase or busting clays w/ shorter barreled shotties.

[hub]

On the other hand, the remingtons get a lot of variability in the quality side.. so I may remove the 1100 from the list. I am willing to pay xtra for a lesser chance of gettin a bad one

I think this has a lot more to due with the cheaper express model 870's than the 1100 or the 870 wingmaster.

When they put out a budget model anything the price reduction has to come from somewhere. The reason the Express models are $250-$300 cheaper than the Wingmaster's are mostly the overall fit, finish, and quality of parts, and less labor an quality control used.

I'm not a Remington fan boy by any means but they do still make a good product if your willing to spend the money for the nicer models so I would say don't count them out just yet.

[badbadtz560]

well one unmentioned reason for removing it was b/c I keep reading that the Remington 11-87 is just an improved 1100. Or is that completely off?

[hub]

I recall that my state is a bit more lenient than most. I live in atlanta or augusta (mostly in atlanta tho)... just incase someone can chime in on stores or ranges that I can visit for autoshottie purchase or busting clays w/ shorter barreled shotties.

http://www.atlantaskeetshooting.com/

They say they cater to new shooters and have rentals you can try out too. I would suggest that you try several different shotguns to see what feels best to you before you buy off looks alone. I would call and ask about using a shorter barrel first.

[hub]

well one unmentioned reason for removing it was b/c I keep reading that the Remington 11-87 is just an improved 1100. Or is that completely off?

Well no, your not really off too much. In a nutshell i think the 11-87 is just like the 1100 except it has a compensating gas system that supposed keep from battering the action when using 3in or 2 3/4 Magnum loads. I think that may affect the reliability somewhat but I don't own one so it's only second hand knowledge not actual experience.

I've been shooting 1100's for a long time and can be really reliable when using standard 2 3/4 loads as long as you take care of it and keep it clean.

Remington has a 11-87 that's kinda like the cheaper Express models in that it has a matte finish and a synthetic stock that is sold at Walmart, Dick's, etc. From what I hear the reliability can be hit and miss on those but that is just second hand knowledge too.

I'm not trying to talk you into a 1100 by any means I was just trying to find a shotgun that fit your original post.

I really like the Browning Silver Models the best myself. I also like the Beretta 391's quite a bit but I don't think either make a tactical model and are pretty much $1000+. You can get a Beretta's 390 from Walmart for less but not in any kind of a tactical set up. The Benelli m4 are nice too but are above what you said you wanted to spend, and I don't really know to much about the m2, I suppose it's probably a good shotgun too but it still msrp $1200-$1300.

You asked for a reliable 18in barrel, mall ninja esq autoloader for cheap, that's where I came up with the 1100 TAC, or even cheaper the 930 SPX. It sounded like a pretty logical choice to me, both coming in well under $1000 and already outfitted with the tactical stuff.

[Yo Mama]

***??....sorry, not even close to correct. Barrel length has NOTHING to do with patterns.....CHOKE has EVERYTHING to do with it...jeez - stop spreading BS on the net - both those statement are so far off base as to be pathetic


Check your tone. There's no reason to be a dick.

Yes, barrel length affects patterning, just like a choke, or lack of a choke does. Additional effects include velocity, which will affect how far shot will go. I've shot thousands of rounds out of short and long barrels, and most of those shots were at flying objects, so yes I know what I'm talking about.

[hub]

Yes, barrel length affects patterning, just like a choke, or lack of a choke does.

I would say that is arguable but probably not really a practical difference. I guess if it holds the shot together slightly longer in the barrel that may (or may not) make a pattern tighter but probably not to a great effect. The only other thing I can think of is with a longer barrel, the shot also does not start to spread for another foot or so downrange,(still in the barrel) so technically shooting from a line your pattern will be tighter because it has traveled less distance out of the choke.

I know sometimes in card guns they use long 30+inch custom barrels and the choke is spread over a larger portion of the barrel instead of just the last couple of inches to acheive tighter patterns but I think that would still be considered choke and not just barrel length.

Additional effects include velocity, which will affect how far shot will go.

Barrel length used to be a concern with velocity some time ago when they were loaded with black powder but in most of today's shotshells with faster burning smokeless powders most max velocity's can be achieved in the first 12-14 inches of the barrel.. I think you may see some increase in velocity with a longer barrel but probably not that much to make a huge difference.

However, just for argument's sake! If one was to reload shells for magnum and heavy field loads with a slow burning powder (blue dot, herco, SR 7625, SR 4756, etc ) it could take 20+ inches of barrel to get a complete burn. That shot out of a 18inch barrel could cause inconsistent velocity's which in turn could possibly affect your patterns too. These slower burning powders are designed for those loads and are the best choice for the application but they leave a lot of residue, kick like hell, and require a lot more powder per shell.

With that being said, I still believe the longer barrels biggest benefit is balance, swing control, and longer sight radius and not any ballistic, or pattern related performance.

[Avtomat Kalashnikova]

+1 for saiga 12, best gun i ever bought, recoil is nothing compared to other 12ga, lots of customizations, will use any ak or ar stock or pistol grip on the market and detachable mags.

[badbadtz560]

any comments on stoegers? I just saw it in another thread. Any comments on these with regards to the other ones on my list?

Once again.. saiga-12 only bothers me b/c it's magazine fed and doesn't have the bolt hold open. I just prefer tubular type magazines on shotguns...

[Reelshooter]

Picked up an FN SLP M1 and it quickly has become a favorite. Went with some friends to shoot sporting clays and figured it would serve as a little break-in period. I know it's not your typical sporting clays shotgun, but what the heck. 100 rounds later all I can say is WOW. Smooth, fast, points great, and accurate. It's definitely the nicest semi-auto I have ever shot. It's got plenty of options/accessories including chokes, rails, barrels, etc.

[oneounceload]

Yes, barrel length affects patterning, just like a choke, or lack of a choke does. Additional effects include velocity, which will affect how far shot will go. I've shot thousands of rounds out of short and long barrels, and most of those shots were at flying objects, so yes I know what I'm talking about.

CHOKE affects patterns in shotguns. Using the same load, a full choke in an 18" barrel will pattern the same as a full choke in a 30" barrel.

Shotgun powder is consumed within the first 14" or so of a barrel, so anything after that has no effect. The barrel length has EVERYTHING to do with swing dynamics.

That is why you see the old goose guns, meant for pass shooting, wearing longer barrels - it kept the swing moving on those distant birds. It did not help velocity or choke.

[oneounceload]

Picked up an FN SLP M1 and it quickly has become a favorite. Went with some friends to shoot sporting clays and figured it would serve as a little break-in period. I know it's not your typical sporting clays shotgun, but what the heck. 100 rounds later all I can say is WOW. Smooth, fast, points great, and accurate. It's definitely the nicest semi-auto I have ever shot. It's got plenty of options/accessories including chokes, rails, barrels, etc.

GOOD for you! Sounds like you got the gun to fulfill your needs and wants - stay safe and shoot....A LOT!...:D

[badbadtz560]

FN SLP - $900 (buds)
Remington 1187 - $700 (buds)
remington 1100 - $700 (buds)
benelli m4 - $1500 (shootersjax)
benelli m3 -
benelli m1 -
saiga-12 - $550 (classicarms)

Anybody help me out w/ the two gaps I have? Has anyone ordered from classic arms or shootersjax before? I know budsgunshop does fine for me.

[Reelshooter]

Arizona Gun Runners has the SLP for 809

[AcceptableUserName]

Saiga 12. Nothing comes close in defense semis, when it comes down to it. The Benellis are nice, but overall the Saiga wins handily. Mag capacity isnt even close, aftermarket psrts, customization, ease of use, simplicity of design, etc.



Plus it doesn't even cost that much. An Fn Herstal SLP , no offense would be a laughable purchase for the same price as a tactically-converted Saiga. This is a price on a Saiaga very nearly AFTER youve bought and converted it and added a few 10 rders or a 20 rd drum.

[jojo200517]

Ill rephrase...Most reputable clay ranges don't allow barrels less than 24 inches due to noise and safety concerns..........

Of the 3 in the DC area, several in VA, and 1 in MD I have gone to, those are the rules and consistently so.

When you stand on the trap line beside someone with 32 inch barrels and they are ported out it will sound just as loud as an 18 inch barrel to everyone else because it directs part of the noise back at the sides. At least that's been my observation. I don't notice any extreme difference in sound between 18 and 28 inch barrel shooting same loads.

I would like for someone to explain how a shorter barrel is more dangerous? I'd figure its more dangerous in the same way black synthetic is more dangerous than wood furniture but I would be delighted to know.

Keep the action open, the weapon pointed in a safe direction, be sure of your target and whats beyond it, keep ya finger off the trigger until your ready, wear your hearing and eye protection, and no shot larger than 7.5, no more than 2 shells in the weapon at a time.


As for being a reputable clays range we do host the SC state trap shoot along with several other registered trap and skeet shoots and run a sporting clay range and 5 stand. While you won't find any "pro" shooters shooting from a short barrel it can be done and it isn't restricted. You will find people having fun and safe time, some of the old timers might poke a joke or 2 at ya and tell you if you had brought the rest of your gun you could hit more targets but thats about it.

I have never seen anyone shoot a Saiga but if they can figure out how to keep the action open and follow the other rules I wouldn't see a problem with it, but I probably would beg to shoot it.

[JustinL]

Of the listed shotguns the only one I have any personal experience with is the 11-87Police model. It is great fun but can be finicky with low-wall brass. Eats buckshot and slugs all day long though.

[sfc_mark]

I recall that my state is a bit more lenient than most. I live in atlanta or augusta (mostly in atlanta tho)... just incase someone can chime in on stores or ranges that I can visit for autoshottie purchase or busting clays w/ shorter barreled shotties.

In Augusta, the Fort Gordon Sportsman's Club has two skeet fields open to the public (Wed, Thu, Sat, Sun). Shooting short barrel would likely not be a problem, only unsafe gun handling.

In Atlanta, try Tom Lowe Shooting Grounds (The '96 Olympic Trap & Skeet venue). It is now run by the Fulton County Parks/Recreation Department. Their rates are great, but I don't know if they have any barrel length restrictions. They also have a pro shop with a great selection of shotguns, but their autos will probably be nearly all Beretta.

[RangerHAAF]

I'm a bit of a shotgun snob when it comes to autoloaders as I handily prefer a Benelli to all others. They are expensive, especially the M-4s that the military uses but they are superior to all other autoloaders as far as operational reliability and weight considerations go.
I have owned Remington autoloaders(11-87s) loaded with magnum turkey loads that continually jammed when I fired them. So far I've not yet had that problem with my Benelli M-1 tactical.

[Kind of Blued]

My "compromise" HD/3-gun/clays/bird shotgun is a Remington 1100 Tac 4.

22" barrel with interchangeable chokes. Will eat more than 1000 rounds of Federal bulk birdshot with no cleaning and no failures.

$700 (IIRC).

Winner.

[CrashInBlack]

I'll vote for the Saiga 12. Felt recoil is minimal for a 12 gauge so follow up shots on multiple clays are easy. Lots of aftermarket parts available.

Just make sure you're using shells with some oomph to them. Most Saiga 12s won't fully eject the Winchester or Remington bargain shells they sell at Wal-mart, but they will eat up the Federals just fine. They also have an adjustable gas valve thingie (I know, technical term, right?) that can reduce felt recoil if you're shooting 3" shells.

[9mmepiphany]

having now read through this whole thread, i'm sorry i didn't get in earlier...the title threw me off, my bad

i wen't through this same choice a while ago and was lucky enough to go through a shotgun course where i got to handle all these guns and compare them...along with various tricked out 870s (VangComp, Wilson)

My choice was the FN SLP for it's combination of balance, recoil and speed of action

the Remington 1100 is an competition design and has some issues with hard use...the 11-97 was beefed up for this...but it has the most aftermarket support.

the Benelli M4 runs great, but not any better than the SLP and cost a lot more

the Mossberg 930 has my preferred tang safety, but isn't up to the quality of the FN or Benelli...i view it as an economy copy of the Winchester SX2

the SLP only has a 18" barrel and an 6rd mag, but it comes with very nice ghostring sights. the longer SLP Mk-1 has a 22" barrel and 8rds and has a cantilever rib and fiber optic front sight