[BlkHawk73]

There's copies of the Browning HP, copies of Sig pistols (Astra), XPs are quite similar to Glocks, and more models that are simply copies of popular guns. My question is why hasn't anyone copied the HK P7 series? With the cult following it has surely more people would be able to enjoy a lesser priced copy of one. I'm happy with mine but just wondering...Surprised Norinco hasn't copied it yet as they copy everything else. :neener:

[WhoKnowsWho]

Could there still be an active patent on it? :D

[10-Ring]

Could it be too expensive to do it right? ;)

[keederdag]

WHY? Be like a copy of VP70, or a Copy of a Sig 210? Expensive, weird desighn. I am ethnically German, we tend to overengeneer a lot, and solve problems that dont exist. When we come up with a great idea, we quickly abandon it, for something more interesting. H&K comes up with more weird stuff???????:confused:

[Greg Bell]

Except to put out a 45 version there isn't a need. I have often wondered when some other manufacturer would adopt the squeeze-cocking system. Right now everyone is rushing to Glock-Style SAO guns. This fad will pass after the ADs begin to mount and the lawyers start circling. Then maybe...

[Skunkabilly]

I'd like one with an aluminum or (gasp) polymer frame.

[BlkHawk73]

I thought i remember reading a few yrs ago that the patent ran out.

[Schuey2002]

Maybe no one else is crazy enough.. :neener:

[keederdag]

Seconded:neener:

[Wildalaska]

Why would anyone want to copy an overly complex, heavy, sensitive, low cap 9mm with a funky manual of arms...

Just look for a good deal on an original....

Wildp7kingAlaska

[Zundfolge]

Why would anyone want to copy an overly complex, heavy, sensitive, low cap 9mm with a funky manual of arms...

Because there is a market for the things ... a market used to paying over a grand a piece for them (police trade in deals notwithstanding).

If one could make a decent copy of them then I could see them selling quite well (especialy if someone made a .45 version)

[Siggyboy]

No-one but the Germans could make a good copy of the P7 and if they did it would be just as expensive!

[Tamara]

You mean that a low-budget P7 clone could be made by cutting corners on tolerances and materials so that the P7 gould get the same rep for reliability that the 1911 has with the illiterati? I'm sold... :eek:

[Zundfolge]

I never said "low budget" ... I would expect anyone making a P7 clone to be as pricey as the HK version. The quality would have to equal the HK or it would fail.

There's plenty of quality 1911s out there that cost as much if not more then a Colt or Springfield, and I do believe a couple have sold here and there :p

[Tamara]

I never said "low budget" ...

No, but the thread originator did. ;)

Do you think that the market for $1,800 P7 clones would be larger than the market for $1,400 originals? ;)

[Zundfolge]

if you can pack 'em with .45 (or for that matter anything other then 9x17, 9x19 and .40) then yeah, I do expect them to sell.


However, if HK starts building them here in the states, that might drop the price enough that it won't matter.

[another48hrs]

The Greeks do make a P7 using HK machinery. Who knows when they'll make a change to a double stack wondernine and sends those guys our way.

[CWL]

Well, the grip-safety was originally a Colt idea I think. Fixed barrels and delayed-blowback are available in other guns.

The P7s originally came about because German Police forces wanted a 9mm pistol which conformed to very strict (as in German definition of strict) safety and operational standards -H&K being German, probably at least played a small part in this pistol being adopted.

In this day and age of 'wondernines' and polymer, I doubt that anyone would have the resources and market to develop another squeezecocker -especially when there isn't a government agency calling for it.

[Gary H]

Folks complain about the P7M10, one of my favorite guns, but the engineers decided on a massive slide compared to the 9mm versions. The only reason to copy the design would involve marketing a .45 ACP version. H&K didn't market such a version and they surely would have if they thought that another massive P7 would sell. The .40 didn't sell and they never marketed a .45ACP. A low quality P7 would never make it to market.

[Greg Bell]

CWL said...

"Well, the grip-safety was originally a Colt idea I think."

Interesting tidbit. Unfortunately the P7 doesn't have a grip safety. It has a cocking lever. I guess the hammer on a colt is the "thumb safety." :D

[Tamara]

Which wanders us into bizarro firearms factoid #273: What was that little Jerry pocket auto that had the moveable trigger guard front that was attached to the slide, allowing you to rack the slide and chamber a round with your trigger finger? The Lignose Einhand or something like that... Anyhow, funky little gun. Those clever, clever Huns... :)

[Zundfolge]

H&K didn't market such a version and they surely would have if they thought that another massive P7 would sell. The .40 didn't sell and they never marketed a .45ACP. A low quality P7 would never make it to market.
Well I'm not a German firearms engineer ... nor do I play one on TV, but I still think the guys at HK went way over into "over-engeneering" when they beafed up the slide on the P7M10 ... I still bet they could have built the P7M10 with a P7M8 sized slide on it and it would have functioned fine.

That said I still really want one :banghead:

[CWL]

Greg Bell caught me!

I should have used 'squeeze-cocker' (hate typing it though!) rather than 'grip safety', although historically, I still think it was Colt that offered an early small caliber pistol with a squeeze-cocker/safety mechanism. I do know that it was originally an American design.

[Greg Bell]

The P7M10 actually started out in the shops of HKUSA. They sent it to Germany and the Krauts insisted on a beefier slide. This was back when the Germans were building 40s correctly (conservatively). Notice how Sig beefed up the 228 and made the 229. To this day the guys at HKUSA say the standard slide was fine. Oh well. What could have been...:confused: :uhoh: :banghead:

CWL. I was just being a smart-a$$. It was clear what you meant.:evil:

[Jim Watson]

First major user of a grip safety I know of was Luger, ca 1900.
Colt 1903 had 'em, but the first use on a .45 was the test guns of 1907 which were based on the 1905 .45 with grip safety and vertical ejection added at the request of the Army. They also asked for the Luger style magazine catch in the 1910 guns, so the "American" magazine catch was a German innovation.

Ace Caravelle made a squeeze cocking conversion for 1911 before H&K came out with P7. (There was also a gadget that replaced the thumb safety with a cocking lever.)

South African Vector and a Communist Chinese pistol (with trigger guard cocking like a big Einhand) have gas retarded blowback; as did the Steyr P18/Rogak, but in different layout.

[gbelleh]

Lignose Einhand...

[gbelleh]

Here's the pic...

[gbelleh]

Here it is with the slide locked back. I want one of these! :)

[Zundfolge]

gbelleh, what caliber is that little guy?

and I hope that little cocking lever doesn't come back with the slide when fired! :what:

[New_comer]

Isn't that a "squeeze-loader-cocker" thing-a-ma-jig?

I once saw a pic of a Norinco with that kind of set-up :cool:

[New_comer]

Here it is. The Norinco 77B:

http://www.incorsa.alpha.pl/nor77b.jpg
http://www.incorsa.alpha.pl/nor77b2.jpg
http://www.incorsa.alpha.pl/77b3.jpg

[Schuey2002]

Why the two triggers?? :confused:

[New_comer]

The moveable trigger guard serves to rack the slide and load a round in the chamber, using the trigger finger only. That is, if you could reach it. "One hand power" accomplishes the typical racking process using two hands.

May be useful if an arm is incapacitated.

But what about loading a fresh mag??? How does one reload with one hand??? :confused: Do the Chinese use Lara Croft style mag pouches??? :what: :evil:

[Sean Smith]

The P7 is proof positive that needless complexity and oddball ideas can result in a very nice gun if you throw enough German engineers and expensive materials at it. :D

[gbelleh]

Zundfolge,
The Lignose Einhands I've seen were all .25. I don't know if they came in other calibers.

[Mike Irwin]

HK announced, and made a few, P7s in .45 ACP. Guns & Ammo did a review of them sometime back in the 1980s. Why it was never released, I don't know.

I was with American Rifleman when the Norinco trigger guard cocker came out, and we had one to test. No one really liked it. It was tough as all hell to cock that way.

[Zundfolge]

Mike, HK made 6 prototype .45 P7s (called the P7M7) All are still owned by HK

http://www.hkpro.com/p7m7left.jpg

read about it here http://www.hkpro.com/p7m7.htm

Why HK didn't go into production with them is a mystery to me ... I figure they would sell a ton of them to Americans (what with our love affair with .45acp)


Oops ... wrong link

EDITED TO CORRECT URL

:uhoh:

[tex_n_cal]

If I ever run across a good P7 at less than a grand, I might get one, despite the funky manual of arms, the one I shot in the past was startlingly accurate.

By the way, there was a .380 version of the P7. I have only ever seen one of them, they are quite rare...and a neat little gun.

The new guns, with a big safety warning and a $1400 price are just flipping silly.:neener:

[BlkHawk73]

While I agree that they HK P7 series guns are a bit more thatn most pistols, I believe they are worth every dollar. They are the smoothest shooting pistol I've ever fired. I'm fairly tight with my $ but I will not hesitate to purchase another $1000+ P7 model.
I nearly purchased a P7M10 yrs ago but passed due to seeing a USP40. (bought it) I believe the P7K3 was available in .380 with conversions to .32 and .22.
They can be had for undr $1200. Perhaps not brand new but it can be done without buying a police trade in.
But, man, I would love the P7M7 to go full production!:) :) :)

[incursion]

I believe there are 2 P7M7s not in HK's possession. David DiFabio of ammolab.com sold one of them to a collector in the U.K. for an undisclosed amount. I think the other one is owned by a guy in Hawaii.