Silencer, have you made one?


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ccsniper
December 4, 2009, 05:23 PM
I am considering filling out the form 1 (I think this is the right form?) to make my own silencer for a high point carbine in .40. If I do embark on this I WILL pay the $200 stomp on my liberty tax and WILL do everything by the book.

My question is; how many of you have made your own Silencer/suppressor? Is it worth the hassle to jump through all the hoops just for some reduced noise? How did you go about it?

Thanks for the replies!!!

*Mods if this is in the wrong category I apologize and please move it to the correct section*

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Mike OTDP
December 4, 2009, 06:37 PM
I's worth it to own a suppressor. It is not worthwhile to try to build your own. Commercial designs are better.

CypherNinja
December 4, 2009, 08:57 PM
Unless you are in it strictly for the intellectual exercise (and you own a lathe), it is usually not worth it to build one unless what you want is substantially different from what is available commercially.

SaxonPig
December 4, 2009, 09:08 PM
I must be missing something. I wouldn't want a suppressor if it was free and it didn't mean drawing the attention of the feds on myself. Making a lot of noise is part of the fun, IMO.

mlaustin
December 4, 2009, 09:17 PM
I knew a guy who did one on a form 1 a few years back. I met him when I was too young to ask the right questions, but he was a friend of my father's who left the Navy as a Chief Machinist's Mate, if memory serves, who owned a machine shop. Neat little thing that went right on his 10/22. It's not hard, just make SURE that you have everything approved, copied, stored safely, etc, before you do the first thing towards making it, otherwise you're committing some kind of crime. Once you get the form 1 approved, to my understanding, it's not complicated, although I do know most people recommend that you stamp ID (your name, number, etc) onto the silencer to protect yourself.

Also, I have a fair bit of experience with machine work, and unless you already own a lathe and know how to use it or really want to learn and are doing this as a project to build your skill, it's not worth it, imho. Machine tools are expensive, complicated, and WILL KILL YOU if you do not know EXACTLY what you're doing and pay them 100% of your attention at all times. I knew a guy in HS who worked in a local auto shop, and he forwarded me pictures that his boss sent around of a guy whose shirt tail got caught in a 12" lathe and literally got sucked in...not pretty, you couldn't even identify his head. From chest up, the lathe, without even struggling, had just sucked him through the 3" or so gap before another employee ran over and stopped it.

If you do want to make one, these guys know a lot more than I do, might be worth registering there: http://www.silencertalk.com

mlaustin
December 4, 2009, 09:21 PM
Found the pictures and uploaded a few, don't click unless you're ready to see some fairly graphic details of what happens when machine tools and humans fight. Something to think about if you're planning on working on a lathe to save $300...

Story was that the guy's shirt got caught and pulled off up to his shoulders, then sucked his head right in. Another employee had to run over and stop the lathe, it would have happily kept going all day. Not pretty, but something to bear in mind when you use machine tools. A graphic reminder like that is healthy, IMHO, because if you're thinking about it the next time you use one you're that much more careful.

At least I know I am :-P.

Moderator note: We really don't need that posted here, so I've edited your links out.

Floppy_D
December 4, 2009, 09:45 PM
don't click unless you're ready to see some fairly graphic details

Make that really clear, this is a family friendly site.

Grassman
December 4, 2009, 10:03 PM
WOW...I was not ready for that. SHOCKING...:what:

Zombie
December 4, 2009, 10:05 PM
I found this, not very helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szXypWiXr2c&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxxxzznjXqQ&feature=related

And this:
http://www.gun-shots.net/firearm-gun-silencers-suppressors.shtml
http://forum.pafoa.org/nfa-class-3-title-ii-34/22820-building-suppressor.html
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=161290&highlight=making+supressor

Jorg Nysgerrig
December 4, 2009, 10:05 PM
I must be missing something. I wouldn't want a suppressor if it was free and it didn't mean drawing the attention of the feds on myself. Making a lot of noise is part of the fun, IMO.
Do you not wear hearing protection for the same reason? Certainly those pesky plugs and muffs remove a large part of the fun of shooting by muffling that sweet, sweet sound.

mlaustin
December 4, 2009, 10:10 PM
Sorry the links are inappropriate, tried to give a warning there. Just sort of the standard warning I'd give anyone who didn't sound experienced contemplating machine work - it's dangerous stuff, and if you don't respect it...

Again, sorry they weren't appropriate, will show more discretion next time.

Floppy_D
December 4, 2009, 10:30 PM
Just sort of the standard warning I'd give anyone who didn't sound experienced contemplating machine work - it's dangerous stuff, and if you don't respect it...


It's a valid warning, those machines mean business.

My question is; how many of you have made your own Silencer/suppressor? Is it worth the hassle to jump through all the hoops just for some reduced noise? How did you go about it?

Paging PTK!

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 11:17 AM
I make silencers on my lathe as a hobby. They are effective and compare well to quality manufactured silencers. Even if I could afford to buy a $2000 50 caliber silencer for my 510 whisper or a $800 can for my 338 magnum rifle, I would still make my own as it gives me much satisfaction to do so. I tend to make give my silencers a bit more volume to make up for baffle design, and still have much to learn on putting on a beautiful durable finish, but I like my work a lot.

I had no machine tool experience and only a small amount of experience with an arc welder (stick) from high school. I decided to buy a cheap chinese 12x31 inch lathe, grinder, wire feed welder and other tools to learn. I invested about $2000 in tools to make 9 silencers so far. Each silencer is better than the last and I have repaid the cost of the tools a few times in the cost of silencers since then. Collecting guns has been a 20 year hobby so far and gunsmithing will last until I no longer can see or use my hands.

Using a silencer greatly enhances my shooting experience and I recommend that eveyone try it. I was able to convert my brother who was sitting on the gun control fence to a gun enthusiast by making him a silencer and putting it on an AR-15. Shooting suppressed is a world apart from everything else.

Two of the best websites for title 2 weapons are http://www.subguns.com and http://www.silencertalk.com . It is rare that anyone on those forums discourages legal gun ownership like some do on this and other gun forums.

Here are a few drawings and photos of my work. All of the silencer stuff is on ATF form 1's. I started using trusts to own my title 2 weapons this year, better than asking the local sheriff for his signature.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/suppressors/223REMINGTON-2.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/suppressors/AKsilencer-1.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/suppressors/Kbaffles.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/1895nagant-2.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/suppressors/photos_510w_2.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/510whisper.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/458socom-1.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/remington700.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/enfield.jpg


Ranb

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 11:35 AM
I's worth it to own a suppressor. It is not worthwhile to try to build your own. Commercial designs are better.

Unless you are in it strictly for the intellectual exercise (and you own a lathe), it is usually not worth it to build one unless what you want is substantially different from what is available commercially.

Mike OTDP and CypherNinja, what experience do you have with homemade and commercial silencers to make the conclusions you posted here?

I’m quite certain that my conical baffle and K baffle designs are better than some of the commercial flat baffle, slant baffle and wipe designs out there. Making a few quality silencers for high powered rifles pays for the cost of a cheap lathe. I do not even need to own a lathe, just have access to one and take the parts home with me when I am done making chips for the day.

I do agree that it is especially worth while to make something that is not available commercially.

Ranb

bigalexe
December 5, 2009, 11:51 AM
Here is a rough drawing of a silencer I found with straight chambers, although I think maybe a solid silencer with angled chambers would be easier to machine. I think it was referenced as being a Navy design and not extremely effective but its somewhere to start.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=110406&stc=1&d=1260028279

hammerklavier
December 5, 2009, 12:03 PM
That underfolder looks awesome. How long is the actual barrel on that?

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 12:08 PM
That underfolder is an Enfield that was too worn to use safely with 303 british. I installed a Rhineland arms barrel and mag adaptor to convert it to 45 acp and make it into a near copy of the Delisle. The barrel is 16 inches and profiled to use the 510 whisper silencer pictured above. I have a 14" shroud instead of the silencer attached in the photo. I just have to remove the spacers and stack the baffles together to mount it on the Enfield. Since the silencer is not offset like the original, I had to use a scope.

Ranb

JShirley
December 5, 2009, 12:14 PM
Neat stuff, Ranb. Thanks.

John

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 12:16 PM
I think it was referenced as being a Navy design and not extremely effective but its somewhere to start.

bigalexe,

The key to good suppression is volume and turlulence. The gun powder gases expand into the can and the baffles reflect it back and otherwise slow its exit into the air.

A good place to start is a tube with spacers and baffles. Cone shaped or K shaped work well, much better than flat ones. A good website for drawings and advice is http://www.silencertalk.com .

Bad news for you though. Michigan bans civilian silencer ownership unless you have a license to deal or manufacture. The ATF form 1 or 4 is neither of these. While the Michigan AG has said federal registration is enough to own a machine gun, it is not enough for a silencer. Life sucks at times. I can not use my silencers at home in WA as use is banned there.

Ranb

PTK
December 5, 2009, 03:36 PM
My question is; how many of you have made your own Silencer/suppressor? Is it worth the hassle to jump through all the hoops just for some reduced noise? How did you go about it?

I prefer my homemade designs to the commercial ones I own. :)

I just filed a form 1 for each one, waited for it to get back, then built it on a lathe and mill, along with some TIG welding.

The only exception to that is for handguns with moving barrels - I can't do the math to make a proper Nielsen device without worrying about the frame cracking.

Jim K
December 5, 2009, 03:46 PM
If I were going to make a suppressor as a project, with cost (within reason) no object, I think I would copy the Maxim. The patent drawings are available. It is very complex but I don't think it has ever been equalled for suppression. It is one of the few that can be called a silencer; on a M1903 rifle the only noise heard from the rifle is the click of the firing pin.

Jim

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 04:40 PM
It is one of the few that can be called a silencer; on a M1903 rifle the only noise heard from the rifle is the click of the firing pin.

I got to wave the major BS flag on that one. Even subsonic bullets make a humming noise moving through the air. The 150 grain FMJ 30 caliber bullet moving 2500 fps makes a cracking sound that is clearly audible in the open, and painful to the ear when shot under weather protection. Who ever is making such claims is suffering from significant hearing loss or is displaying way too much enthusiasm to remain credible.

While I have heard that the original Maxim design was effective, I have never seen any noise data on it.

Ranb

CypherNinja
December 5, 2009, 05:22 PM
Mike OTDP and CypherNinja, what experience do you have with homemade and commercial silencers to make the conclusions you posted here?

I simply meant that if one's SOLE goal was acquiring a silencer (or two), with no real interest in machining or design, getting a Form 1 and a lathe is not going to be the easiest or cheapest route to take. I didn't mean to discourage him from the path, but simply point out what was involved. Looking back, I botched my post, and came across like that. :( My apologies.

That being said, I am a hobby machinist and take every opportunity possible to use someone else's machines, usually at college. :D

I haven't gotten my own yet, as the "Grizzly Gunsmith Lathe" fund has not yet matured. :D

And oh yeah, both you (Ranb) and PTK are my heroes. :D

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 06:01 PM
I simply meant that if one's SOLE goal was acquiring a silencer (or two), with no real interest in machining or design, getting a Form 1 and a lathe is not going to be the easiest or cheapest route to take.

I doubt I would have bought a lathe just to make 1 or 2 silencers either. :) I intend to suppress everything in my collection except black powder and revolvers.

Ranb

PTK
December 5, 2009, 07:46 PM
I intend to suppress everything in my collection except black powder and revolvers.

Same. I'm giggling at the thought of getting a F1 for a 40mm silencer, some time next year. :D

Ranb
December 5, 2009, 08:20 PM
What 40mm host? I have already made a 338 magnum can. Next step up is 50 bmg, if I have the guts to do it.

Ranb

PTK
December 5, 2009, 10:56 PM
GL40-1 40mm grenade launcher from Penn Arms. Don't worry about .50BMG cans, they're relatively easy. I'll be helping a friend build another one whenever his second stamp comes back.

ccsniper
December 6, 2009, 01:03 AM
just for everyones knowlegde my dad works at a machine shop and we have permission by the owner to use it. So I have that out of the way, plus I have a different idea of a silencer to try out with a form 1.

PTK
December 6, 2009, 03:24 AM
Different doesn't mean better, and you get only one try per stamp, legally. Spend your $200 wisely.

Dannix
December 6, 2009, 03:52 AM
Caveat - don't try this at home kids - you'll probably get in deep poop with some government agency okay, when we were teenagers (15 or 16) in another country (not the USA)...
Oooh, that's risky. Too bad you weren't in a country like here in the USA where RKBA shall not be infringed. Wait a second...

I was waiting for Ranb to show up. I'm thinking about saving up and building a wood working shop. I may have to tack a machine shop on the proverbial wish list as well. :D

ChaoSS
December 6, 2009, 06:37 AM
You can certainly make your own silencer, but something that has only been touched on is what PTK said, you only get one try.

If you get your stamp, you start working on it, and halfway through, you screw it up, if what you made can be called a silencer, you can not legally make another one. If you finish, and it doesn't work well, you can't just scrap it and try again.

If you could legally experiment with it, ie, out of the country, it wouldn't be a problem, but when you have to put up the 200 dollars for each experiment, it becomes a whole other animal.

Not saying don't do it, just saying, think about that.

mlaustin
December 6, 2009, 07:01 AM
Well, if you thought you were going to make more than 5, or more than 5 tries, wouldn't it be a better idea to get an 07 FFL ($150 for 3 years) and a Class 2 SOT ($1000)?

If you're actually interested in trying out new ideas, this is probably the best (legal) route, rather than waiting for approval and paying for multiple form 1's. If it really is a novel, workable idea, you'd probably want to sell them anyways when you finish R&D...

Dannix
December 6, 2009, 07:07 AM
ChaoSS, a what point is it a referb, and at what point is it new (and illegal)?

Ranb
December 6, 2009, 07:37 AM
As the maker of a form 1 silencer, I can make repairs, but I can not change the bore, lengthen the tube or replace parts. The repairs I have made so far have been limited to hammering out dents in end caps and baffles, as well as cutting off a welded end cap to inspect internals. Making a baffle or any other part is by itself making a new silencer in the eyes of the ATF. For an FF/SOT class 2, this is no problem, just register it on an ATF form 2, no tax.

Ranb

PTK
December 6, 2009, 07:55 AM
Ranb - just to clarify, we CAN replace one part and one part alone; wipes. Few people use them, but I do in one design I have.

Ranb
December 6, 2009, 10:07 AM
Right. I forgot about that. I even have an ATF letter that tells me so. :) The same letter tells me that I am sh-t out of luck on replacing any other parts. :(

I was going to make a wipe can for my 1895 nagant revolver. I wanted to make the wipes as a replaceable cartridge like the Hush Puppy (yes?). But then I realized that the ATF might say the parts of the cartridge holding the wipes together as a unit are not replaceable and I can not have extra wipes on hand ready to pop in either. ARGG!

In the end I permanently attached an adaptor to the muzzle of my Nagant to mount my 9mm can. It works just fine as long as I settle for broad side of the barn accuracy with the sights covered up.

What host are you using wipes on?

Ranb

PTK
December 6, 2009, 02:59 PM
Ahhh, yes, the wipes have to be as-is. Mine are .125" red gasket material. I use them in a subsonic 9x18 design (modified CZ-82). Blowback is a pain out of a straight blowback pistol.

For my 1895, I just threaded the muzzle 1.2-28x.300". I still need to make an offset silencer for it, though.

As for having extra wipes around, I read it as they're the ONLY thing we can have laying around extra. I had a little stack of them pre-cut before I moved.

mrjohnston
December 6, 2009, 03:04 PM
Ranb, are you the guy on youtube with the silenced nagant? I assume it's you because silenced revolvers are far and few between.

Ranb
December 6, 2009, 04:27 PM
Not me. The only videos I have up on the net are my 338 / 510 whispers and an AR-15 supersonic/subsonic duel.

The only suppressed 1895 Nagant video I have seen was with a 30 calbier rifle silencer (I think) probably shooting factory target speed ammo which accounts for why it is so impressively quiet (on my computer anyway).

I load my Nagant ammo with either 1.8 grains of NM04 for 700 fps or 3 grains for 1000 fps. The lighter load is less noisy unsuppressed, have not tested it through my 9mm can suppressed yet.

Ranb

Ranb
December 6, 2009, 04:35 PM
My ATF letter said I could only make new wipes after destroying the old ones. But that letter is really only worth the paper it was printed on. I’m sure I can not count on it to keep me out of trouble if I ever waved it at a court or police official while trying to talk ( I wouldn’t) my way out of being handcuffed.

I wrote a few letters several years back. I (and others) have come to the conclusion that the only thing those letters do is give the BATFE more ideas on how to restrict gun owners.

The last thing we need to do is give those guys more ideas. All of the ATF agents I have met were polite and knowledgeable, but our friends they are not!

Ranb

mrjohnston
December 6, 2009, 05:42 PM
The guy on youtube used a cobra 9mm silencer and the gun was fairly quiet. Thats interesting that there are at least 3 silenced revolvers accounted for, althought I'd love to see a silenced J-frame, I doubt that would work as well as a nagant.

ccsniper
December 7, 2009, 12:51 AM
Different doesn't mean better, and you get only one try per stamp, legally. Spend your $200 wisely.


I am quite certian this idea will work. Is there a legal way to try out a design? I have a very unique design I am quite certain will work. I will try to find a way to put the design up on here... maybe a pic of the drawing I have?

ChaoSS
December 7, 2009, 01:25 AM
Yes, you can legally try it out, either with the license to produce those devices or with the 200 dollar stamp.

PTK
December 7, 2009, 04:43 AM
Ranb, are you the guy on youtube with the silenced nagant? I assume it's you because silenced revolvers are far and few between.

That's me.

cpileri
December 7, 2009, 06:41 AM
Ranb and others who have made these,
Where did you find info on what material to construct the outer can out of? specifically, how to contain the gas volume/pressure from a higher power rifle cartridge?

Aluminum seems fine for a 22LR. But i have been looking off-and-on for a long time to no avail on what metal? (steel, aluminum) what type? (4140, aircraft, other) and how thick? to construct a suppressor for a 308Win, for example.

Any help appreciated!
C-

p.s. trial and error seems too risky- more like making schrapnel than anything else!

Officers'Wife
December 7, 2009, 11:11 AM
If you guys are really going to go with the machine shop mindset, you might as well do it right.

http://www.lindsaybks.com/dgjp/index.html

There is no need for me to suffer being a Gingery widow alone.

Ranb
December 7, 2009, 07:11 PM
I use .070" aluminum for 22lr and 9mm with screw on end caps. .125" wall aluminum tubing is good for my take apart 338 and 510 whisper and 458 socom cans. If I used 4130 or 304SS for the subsonic rifle cartridges, then I would use .035" and weld the end caps on. I use 4130 welded cans for my high powered rifles. .035" for 223, .095" for 338 RUM and I would probably use .065" for .308 win. No problems so far. I am probably over building.

Aluminum is common for pistol silencers and 304SS is common on the rifle silencers. I no nothing about titanium.

Ranb

Pappy109
December 7, 2009, 07:41 PM
I am real curious about how that silencer works on that S&W wheel gun!

Sam1911
December 7, 2009, 07:55 PM
I am real curious about how that silencer works on that S&W wheel gun!

This one?

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/1895nagant-2.jpg

That's a Russian M1895 Nagant revolver. It uses an unusual cylinder design where the cylinder actually moves forward and seals off the barrel/cylinder gap before firing.

Uses this cartridge, the 7.62x38mmR Nagant:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b5/7.62NagantCartridge.JPG/180px-7.62NagantCartridge.JPG

Yes, a revolver that works well suppressed.

-Sam

mrjohnston
December 7, 2009, 08:23 PM
Those silenced nagants are too cool. I'd like to have a silencer for my ar-15 just to make it not brutal to shoot without plugs and muffs. (I think I have sensitive ears)

RollerCam
December 7, 2009, 09:47 PM
"If I were going to make a suppressor as a project, with cost (within reason) no object, I think I would copy the Maxim. The patent drawings are available. It is very complex but I don't think it has ever been equalled for suppression."

Not only has it been equaled many times, it's been surpassed.

But if you're into nostalgia, look at this:

http://www.usfirearms.com/im/maxim-silencer.jpg

For Immediate Release:
Contact: Doug Donnelly, U.S. Fire Arms Mfg. Co. SHOT SHOW 2007, USFA Booth 4473

The Famous and Historic Maxim Silent Firearms Company is revived by U.S. Fire Arms – in Hartford!

Shhhhh, this is big news . . . that is VERY, VERY QUIET!

Orlando, Florida - January 13, 2007. The U.S. Fire Arms Mfg. Company (USFA) in Hartford, Connecticut today announced that after acquiring the name(s), rights, production drawings and models in 2006, to The Maxim Silent Firearms Company, that the company is going into initial production of historically accurate (made and marked) sound suppressors bearing the MAXIM name. The original Maxim company-made “silencers” for firearms from 1909 to about 1925. As with the original Maxims, the current Maxims are 100% made in Hartford, Connecticut, USA.

History buffs will of course recall the unique feature of the Maxim was that it was NOT concentric to the bore (as all of today’s suppressors are) but in fact was offset to allow the use of the original sights without modification.

This feature was unique nearly 100 years ago, and remains so today. Initial production will be in .22 caliber, with production expected to follow in .45 ACP, .40 S&W, 9mm Lugar, Super 38 Automatic and rifle calibers .223 and .30.

USFA expects to ship the first units in Oct. of 2007, and will be displaying the initial prototypes at the Shot Show in this month in Orlando, FL.

The MAXIM sound suppressor is considered a Class III item by the BATFE and currently they are legal to use and possess in the following 36 states: AL, AR, AK, AZ, CO, CT, FL, GA, ID, IN, KY, LA, ME, MD, MS, MT, NE, NV, NH, NM, NC, ND, OH, OK, OR, PA, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA, WV, WI, and WY. Also available for export.

MAXIM and Maxim Silent Firearms are Trademarks of U.S. Fire Arms (USFA)

http://www.usfirearms.com/im/maxim-ad.jpg

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