Sub-Machine gun accuracy...


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natedog
November 9, 2003, 03:40 PM
What are the more accurate sub-machine guns? How accurate are the famous sub-guns: MP5, Thompson M1, Colt SMG, Uzi, Mac-10, etc.

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cslinger
November 9, 2003, 03:57 PM
Well I have shot an MP5, Colt SMG, UZI and a Mac-10 all on full auto and semi auto.

The MP5 is amazingly accurate in both semi and full auto fire assuming you keep your bursts down to a controlable size, 3-5 rounds. Even on full auto at close range the MP5 is pretty easy to control and I am not officially trained so based on my experience a trained operator would probably be able to do amazing things with an MP5.

Colt SMG. I got pretty much the same impression as I did from the MP5. There is more gun to hold on to or at least it feels that way. The guns action feels harsher(MP5 feels like it is on ball bearings) but it is still very accurate and controllable.

UZI. Now the UZI has a great reputation and is suppossed to be pretty accurate but not in my hands. With the stock extended and on semi auto I can do pretty well but switch to full auto and fuhgettaboutit. I am sure this is a matter of my skill but it says something about the Colt and HKs design as well as I could shoot them very well.

MAC-10. Well they are cool looking, they are fun and I can't hit the broad side of a barn while being inside of the barn with them. I have no business using one of these for anything else besides a loud fun way to waste money. The MACs are definitely the most harsh feeling of the guns you mentioned and IMO the hardest to control on full auto.

Thompson. I have never shot a real Thompson select fire. The shame of it. Actually as cool as I think they are they don't fit me at all. The big buttstock is just too long for me to shoulder them comfortably. They are heavy beasts so controlling the fire shouldn't be too tough though.

Chris

SDC
November 9, 2003, 04:10 PM
I'll echo cslinger's assessment, and add that the Thompson is plenty accurate for what it was designed for, but it doesn't hold a candle to the MP-5. The Thompson really doesn't move around a whole lot when you fire it full-auto, but it has a fairly slow rate of fire and part of the recoil comes from the heavy bolt rocking back and forth.

Hkmp5sd
November 9, 2003, 05:07 PM
My MP5SD is extremely accurate and easy to keep on target. The suppressor removes all muzzle climb and the only effect of the recoil is to push the weapon straight back.

I also have a M11/9 and with it's 1200 rpm cyclic rate, it is essentially an anti-aircraft gun after about the third round. It's somewhat controllable with a barrel extension and vertical foregrip attached, but still a handful.

444
November 9, 2003, 05:29 PM
I am not sure what you mean by accuracy. Semi-auto benchrest accuracy or do you mean controllability on full auto ?

Either way, the answer is pretty much the same. The closed bolt guns are more accurate. With an open bolt, you have a large chunk of metal flying forward when you pull the trigger.
As far as controllablity, obviously the 9mm is going to be more controlable than a .45 ACP. Size, stock etc also contribute. The guns with a full stock and a real forearm are easier to shoot and control than the ones with folding stocks or no stock.
The HK MP5 and the Colt SMG are both very accurate. Both fire from a closed bolt. Both have full sized stocks and both have forearms. Both have legitimate sights that are adjustable. I have never had the opportunity to fire an MP5 other than on an indoor range. I have fired the Colt out in the desert where I could shoot whatever I wanted to. Both are quite accurate within the limitations of the cartridge.

4v50 Gary
November 9, 2003, 05:54 PM
Depends. Full auto, burst or single shot and it depends on the operator.

Powderman
November 9, 2003, 07:06 PM
Pick #3: HK MP5.

Runs absolutely smooth. Very accurate. Only complaint--just try firing a 5-7 round burst--you'll usually get 8 or more. ;)

Pick #2 Thompson M1

The big stick just throbs along, spitting out .45 ball with surprising accuracy.
Only complaint: Be firm with the trigger. No chicken finger, or the gun sometimes won't fire.

Pick #1 Uzi

No vibration, no kick, no NOTHING!! Puts 9mm ball exactly where you want it all the time.

Complaint: Funky grip angle takes getting used to.

Hkmp5sd
November 9, 2003, 08:03 PM
just try firing a 5-7 round burst--you'll usually get 8 or more. Just means you need more practice! :) With trigger control, you can shoot single, double and triple shots as desired.

Complaint: Funky grip angle takes getting used to.
And the grip safety causes a sore hand. And the metal stock angles downward from the muzzle direction, adding even more to the subgun's desire for muzzle climb.

Mike Irwin
November 9, 2003, 10:43 PM
I frigging HATE the Uzi. The ones I've messed with have not been reliable, nor in my hands have they been accurate.

With an MP-5 I can snipe bowling pins repeatedly at 100 meters.

I've never tried that with the Thompson, but they've always struck me as being very reliable.

The MP-38/40s are nice, and their stock is fairly rigid. They suffer from the problem that all open-bolt guns do, though, and that's when the bolt is released when the trigger is pulled it tends to throw off your aim.

Sten gun? Not much better than the Uzi in my hands.

444
November 9, 2003, 10:47 PM
I wouldn't even mention the Sten gun and the Uzi in the same sentence; and I own a Sten.

Wildalaska
November 9, 2003, 11:45 PM
The Sterling is my fav...

Accurate, reliable, and transferables are relatively cheap...

WildtrustmeAlaska

Jim K
November 10, 2003, 12:22 AM
Firing off a rest, I have shot one ragged hole at 50 feet with a STEN on full auto. I think they are pretty accurate.

Jim

444
November 10, 2003, 12:24 AM
Mine is a POS
It was my single biggest waste of money since my divorce.

WonderNine
November 10, 2003, 12:47 AM
never mind

Solinvictus70
November 10, 2003, 12:49 AM
I've fired a Sten, Uzi, MP-40, and MAC-10. My favorite was the MP-40. It was very easy to control, accurate way out to about 75 meters, and had a smooth trigger that made it easy to squeeze a single shot. The Sten was my second favorite, the UZI 3rd, and the MAC10 I was not too crazy about at all.

geekWithA.45
November 10, 2003, 01:40 AM
I've only shot an MP5, so I don't have any basis for comparison.

What I can say is that they're an incredibly friendly and easy to control SMG in any mode. With near zero training, I was able to easily keep all my rounds in a 6-8 inch region @ 25 yards.

My only beef, (being a lefty) is that the bolt release is a bit awkward, and the foregrip heats up a tad more than I'd like.

Mike Irwin
November 10, 2003, 01:48 AM
How the heck could I forget the Reising??!!

Yep, a Reising.

Got a bad rep with the Marine Corps in WW II, but I found the two that I've fired to be very accurate and VERY controlable.

Dr.Rob
November 10, 2003, 01:52 AM
Strangely I found the Uzi the easiest to shoot. Pretty darn accurate too, easy to keep on target. Good sights. Though I have a trendency to look over them instead of through them. Never missed a pin at 25 yards.

The mp 5 seems 'light' to me.. you feel like you could club someone with an Uzi if you had to. Easy to keep on target, smooth action. Good sights. Very accurate, more so than the Uzi I'd venture. Never missed a pin at 25 yards. fTried shooting at 50.. with the std stock, as easy as any rifle. No misses.

Mac 10.. in .45 auto trim I had a friend MISS a full sized bank robber target at 20 feet.. of course he was a totally new shooter.. but the Mac 10 has a LOT of muzzle climb, a short barrel and an open bolt.. makes for a mess with an untrained user. Sights? it has sights? Must have a supressor or barrel extension to be "safe" IMHO.

Thompson SMG.. I fired one with a smooth bore barrel and cutts comp.. the lack of rifling didn't deter me from hitting targets at 25 yards (bowling pins)
slowest rate of all.. handles more like a rifle. Crap-tastic sights. Doubles as a club.

AK103K
November 10, 2003, 07:39 AM
Once you get the tecnique down, they are all really pretty easy to shoot. The closed bolt guns are more accurate at distance on semi, but the open bolt guns can still hold there own with practice. The MP5 on semi with a scope mounted and the right ammo, can easily make head shots at 100 yards. On full, if you try to hold the gun on target, it will want to "run up" on you, usually in the direction of the hand holding the grip. If you relax and "ride" the gun like a hose and go with it, you can dump a whole mag on target with no problem at 10-15 yards. Even the lowly M11/9mm can do this easily. Shooting in controled bursts is much more practical, but full mag dumps are fun and can show they are really controlable. I'm amazed at how many people who have gone through the military and supposedly had training on select fire weapons really have no idea how to shoot one.

emc
November 10, 2003, 01:16 PM
I only have experience with the MAC-10. As others have mentioned, the open bolt and crude sights don't make it easy. Here are my results -

Using GI ball equivalent at 10-15 yards on a standard police silhouette, firing a three round burst. POA was at the knees. The first round hit at POA, the second round at waist level, and the third around the head or the neck. Admittedly, my technique could probably stand some improvement, but that was my experience.

Using the same ammo on semi-auto was a different story. Shot well, and it was even possible to connect at 200 yards on small targets, once the holdover was determined.

The real revelation was when we switched to using handloaded ammo with 200 grain LSWC at around 720fps. This was just strong enough to cycle the bolt. A couple of times we had runaways, so just a little bit more velocity would have made the difference. On full auto, no problem keeping three or four round bursts at 10-15 yards within a five inch circle. The gun really settled down, and showed what it could do with ammo more suitable for something so short.

YMMV and FWIW,

emc

Sleuth
November 10, 2003, 05:14 PM
I have both an MP5 and a Thompson. On my range at home, at 200 yards, the MP5 is eaiser to shoot accuratly (strike a man sized target). The T gun can do it as well, but it takes more effort.
Close in, full auto, the MP5 is faster and easier with multiple targets. The T gun puts more lead on target, and is a lot heavier.
Overall, the MP5.

JeepDriver
November 10, 2003, 05:24 PM
I've shot the Mac 10, Uzi and MP5N, MP5K & MP5SD.

Out of those I'd take the MP5N. The SD was just as nice, I just liked the short barrel and collapsable stock on the N.

The Mac 10 and Uzi were spray and pray as far as I am concerned. They were great for a lot of noise and a big smile, but for practicle work I'd take the MP5N

AK103K
November 10, 2003, 06:21 PM
I think the MAC's get a bad rap because they can be intimadating to those not familiar with them. They do run fast, especially with SMG rated ammo, but as was mentioned, the rate of fire can be varied using reloads. If you dont have a suppressor or muzzle extention on them, you need to pay attention and a good Weaver type grip is necessary. Throw that silly strap away! My M11/9mm is very reliable with good mags and plenty accurate. The bolt slamming forward really isnt an issue once you get used to it. If you try to shoot it like in the movies, you will be bringing down birds and aircraft. With the stock out, a good stance, and a little practice, anything in front of you at a reasonable range is toast. As with any open bolt, you need to pay attention to some different safety issues while making them safe and carrying them. The closed bolt guns are more like the semi rifles most are familiar with and tend to be easier to shoot and work, especially from the safety standpoint. On semi they work the same as those guns and placing that shot farter out is definitely easier, but they still are just pistol caliber guns. These type guns also tend to have better sights, including scopes, etc, for this type shooting. Most of the open bolt guns are not set up for this, not that it cant be done. Reguardless of some longer range capabilties, they are are really meant to be used up close to take advantage of what they are. I would definitely choose one over a shotgun as they are much more versatile, allow you to carry more ammo and reload faster and easier, and are much easier to teach novices to shoot well. All this and fun too, who could ask for more? :)

Hkmp5sd
November 10, 2003, 08:34 PM
You can also get "slow fire" conversions for the M11/9 to drop the cyclic rate down to about 800 rpm. I've been thinking of doing that to mine. There are also some nice new mods for the M11/9. It's getting to be like the AR series in the number of accessories available.

Here's a M11/9 upper with MP5 adjustable sights, side-cocker and rail.
http://www.stonycreekarmory.com/images/webpage_images/M11_9mm_upper_with_scopemount.gif
It also comes with the 3-lug barrel for using HK type suppressors.
http://www.stonycreekarmory.com/images/3_lug_barreled_upper/3-lugbarrelonupper.jpg
Your choice of the MP5K PDW side-folding stock
http://www.stonycreekarmory.com/images/webpage_images/mp5k_pdw_stock_solo.gif
or the AR/M4/M16 collapsible buttstock.
http://www.stonycreekarmory.com/images/webpage_images/carstocks2.jpg

Looks like it's time for me to get a 2nd job or 2nd mortgage.

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