[Wildfire]

Hey there:
Alright , I bought 2 new 1860 Army"s. {Uberti's} They ar every pretty and handle well. No that I am hooked , I need some help. Oh , I know Black Powder very well so lets not waste any time there..
Just don't know these 1860s..
I went to .457 balls on top of 1 wonder wad, and 30 Grains of "P"..
The stupid balls still fall out of the guns. Do I have them too clean ?????

Should I eliminate the wad ?? Use oat meal or what ?

Finally went to REM #10 s and have not had time yet to try them .
The caps would blow apart so bad that they would get stuck in the hammer and stop the wheel. ???????
Maybe the REM #10s won't be as bad ??

Next , I assume these have a 1-30" twist . Have any of you used a Conversion cylinder with any good results {Accuracy} ???? I wante dto load .45 long colts w/round balls or maybe a wad cutter {short one} and BP....
Any ideas ????

Do any of you have a Uberti conversion gun in .45. {factory made} If so will it shoot right and is it accurate ?

[4v50 Gary]

Start by reading the threads listed right Here (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=238769)

[Acorn Mush]

I went to .457 balls on top of 1 wonder wad, and 30 Grains of "P"..
The stupid balls still fall out of the guns. Do I have them too clean ?????
Does this happen with both revolvers? Did you mike the diameters of the chambers to ascertain the correct ball size? Is it possible that the chambers are tapered from front to rear because of poor machining? I doubt it would happen with a Uberti, but it is possible. A .457 should be more than large enough though. Is a ring shaved off the ball when rammed into the chamber, or have you examined a ball that has fallen out to see if there is a circumfrential flat around it that would indicate it has been swaged down to chamber size? This is a remote possibility, but you may have too tall a load column. Ramming the ball down far enough to clear the chamber mouth could compress the wad too much. The wad can then "spring back" and move the ball forward. I've had this happen when using two wads under a ball in my ROA. Surprised the daylights out of me.

If you get a shaved lead ring, then try not using the wad. Fill the chamber up with corn meal, then seat the ball. Corn meal compresses well, and doesn't spring back.

Finally went to REM #10 s and have not had time yet to try them .
The caps would blow apart so bad that they would get stuck in the hammer and stop the wheel. ???????
Maybe the REM #10s won't be as bad ??
Are your caps magnums, or regular? You shouldn't really need magnum caps to light off Pyrodex in a revolver.

[mykeal]

Are you using lube on the balls?

[Hellgate]

Sometimes there is a slight lip on the chamber mouths. when the ball is rammed a ring is sheared off but then the chamber just below the mouth is still larger and the balls can migrate forward under recoil. A slight chamfering of the chamber mouths will cure it.

I found that I got delayed ignition with Pyrodex-P in my 44 navies. Instead of the typical BP sound of: BOOM! each time I got paBOOM! Pyro-P is very spongy and will compress a lot and let you seat the ball deeper than with BP. Maybe the chambers do get smaller as you ram deeper and the wad or powder springs back enough to dislodge the ball. I've had to chamfer chambers to eliminate "ball creep" (not an STD!).

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Well , You may have it. The wads are what I felt were somehow sealing too good and pushing the balls back out. Sometimes while loading we could not even go all the way around before a ball was coming back out. Seemed as if air was pushing it. I will try the filler.
The "P" does compress very tight . But we have had no issues with soft starts.
Mine is the fluted model and my sons is not . His is the one that the balls come out worse. We do get a nice shaved ring with the .457 balls. the .454s NO.

I also had to sort of square up the ram rod on my sons , It was so sharp it dug into the ball and hung on to it. I chucked it in my lathe and took that edge off and that problem went away.

The caps are REM #10s and say they are 40% hotter but do not say they are magnums.
I was also cleaning the guns maybe too well before loading and the cylinders were somewhat damp with lube 1000 or bore butter, I will try them a lot dryer.

We want these things to work and be reliable. We want to carry them while hunting and do not want a maybe shooter. We have hunted for many years with BP rifles and I feel just a tad dumb with these 1860s. We have killed many deer at very close range with handguns and want to take some with these to. I'm not being weird here and would not try something that I did not feel was right. But 5 to 10 yards should kill small deer.

These pistols killed men every day , they should work on smaller deer and farm pest. We are required to kill all the deer we can legally take off this farm.
That is why and how we get to hunt it. We kill deer . No one else could or would. They were all waiting for the monster bucks and the farmer had, had enough of that.
This may sound weird but , The deer have actually taken over there. They are even in the barn yard and by the house. One of the largest bucks I have seen in years was laying less than 15 feet from the barn door.
thanks for the help and I will keep watching for any more hints.
I will also look at the chambers and see what we have at the chamber mouths.

[rcflint]

One of my Ruger Old Armies suffered from balls falling out, it was burred chamber mouths, so the ball was cut smaller on its way in than the main bore of the chamber. Deburring cured the problem.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
De burring will likely be the first thing to happen.
I wondered about that and now see that it can be an issue.

Thanks.

[mykeal]

Yes, the 1858 Remingtons killed men. Unfortunately, the vast majority died of infection. One shot instant kills from revolvers were not the norm.

[StrawHat]

mykeal

One shot instant kills from revolvers were not the norm.

Even with all the improvements in the last 150+ years, one shot kills are still not the norm.

[BCRider]

Well , You may have it. The wads are what I felt were somehow sealing too good and pushing the balls back out. Sometimes while loading we could not even go all the way around before a ball was coming back out. Seemed as if air was pushing it. I will try the filler......

There is NO WAY the balls should be able to float up from any amount of air that can be trapped under the wads. On my two Uberti 1858's the balls are a TIGHT ram fit that would easily hold in any air down to the ball.

As previously mentioned by other folks check for a burr at the bore mount that's shaving too much lead from the sides and leaving them loose in the cylinder bores. You want the taper to be a smooth flared cone that shaves a little and compresses a little. Or if the balls are not being shaved off during the ramming step then either your cylinder is out of spec or the balls are not actually .457. Some measuring is called for since at least one factor is wildly out of kilter.

Wads or filler, your choice but if you're using a greased up wad then most here will agree that you don't need to then top the ball with goop. And that's a nice step to avoid if you can.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
While I hear you loud and clear on the air thing, We saw the balls Float back out after ramming them down and had not moved the gun .

This baffled me. I plan on dealing with the chamber mouths. I will start small and see what happens.

I agree with the fact that one shot kills were not the norm and they still are not..
These will not be every day deer hunting tools. But without bragging or complaining we are both rather died in the wool and feel we can take a smaller doe at close range... mainly , just to say we did it...

Back in the day I took many a deer with .22 rim fires. You do have to know how to hold it and when to fold it. Most of you older Gentlemen know what I am saying. We killed hogs in the barn yard with .22s and most of them dropped in their tracks. But once in a while ???????

[Sagetown]

Hey Wildfire: Hey :
While I hear you loud and clear on the air thing, We saw the balls Float back out after ramming them down and had not moved the gun .

You state that you are using .457" diameter round balls.:confused: The most simplest explaination to the balls floating would be that you are using a .451" diameter ball which could have a tendency to fall out of the chamber. :banghead:
:) I would take a measurement from that particular source before going any further. Uberti requires a .454" diameter round ball for their guns. A .457" ball would shave off a notable amount of lead when seating. :D

[scrat]

+1 measure them out first. if they still float forward. i could careless what people say about wad or not. the pressure of the wad should not move them forward. you have two choices. 1. make sure you are using .457 balls. 2. send back the cylinders as they are deffective or overcut or honed.

[Wildfire]

Hey there again :
Well, My Brown & Sharps Dial caliper says they are .457 balls.
I tried the .454" and they did not give a good cut ring at all.
The .457s did.

I would like to use the wads so I could get away from having to grease the cylinders.
I will bevel the chambers. That only makes sense to do.

While I understand that I may not be able to measure very deep into the chamber , I can get below the mouths with my calipers. They measure inside too. They have a set back made for that. Why is it that some say calipers are not accurate? I have not found that true at all. Both of mine were sort of high dollar and are digitals. I use them for all machine work and have never had an issue yet. Everything has always fit right.

Maybe someone can explain this to me.
I am aware of all of the other types of measuring inside ID...

Best I can tell those chambers are the problem and I can fix that.
Any input ?

[arcticap]

Are you using these synthetic fiber gasket wads like the one's from Cabela's?
They're are made from a tough, spongy material.
I could see those pushing a ball out because they seem to have some elasticity and are oversized. Plus these pictured are double thick.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0018754214922a&type=product&cmCat=SEARCH_all&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&Ntt=wads&Ntk=Products&sort=all&_D%3AhasJS=+&N=0&_D%3Asort=+&Nty=1&hasJS=true&_DARGS=%2Fcabelas%2Fen%2Fcommon%2Fsearch%2Fsearch-box.jsp.form1&_dyncharset=ISO-8859-1

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101474&d=1247502829

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101473&d=1247502786

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=101475&d=1247502977

[BCRider]

Wildfire, you're entirely right in thinking that you can use calipers to get a good measurement of the cylinder bores. The key is the skill and judgement of the operator. If you've used them much you already know that the idea is to maintain a slight expansion pressure and then work the jaws until you see a maximum reading. At that point you've aligned the jaws as well inline as possible and the final largest reading is the bore size. In this case the bores should measure out at .440. So start with that and then raise the jaws up a little and check for a smaller size burr at the mouth of the cylinder. I'd say that if you see signs of such a burr then the problem has been found and it's just a case of correctly easing away this burr so the balls can be slightly compressed as they pass the mouth. You'll still get the lead shaving but now the ball will fit tighter.

If the issue is still there then it'll be time to send the gun back or if you want to look into it more to obtain some fancier measurement tools to check for a reverse taper in the cylinders that is getting wider towards the nipples.

One thing for sure, you've really got my curiosity up on this one. Good luck with the trouble shooting.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Thank you all. I have been on the road for most of the last 3 weeks now and will be home before Christmas. I will have a week or two off and time to play with the guns then. The wads are the wonder lube {yellow ones}

Yes I have a lot of time on the "MIC" .. The MIC's are good ones and I have many others too.

Have a Merry Christmas :)

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Well I got home.
Measured the chambers. .450 at the mouths. .448 just inside and then taper to .446 as far as I can reach .
I shook the balls out and they measured .448 at the ring which was .135" wide.
I get a good cut lead ring going in.
I will dry the chamber sout good and try loading again.
If I were to cut the chambers at the mouths , How much would be right ?
I have the right tools for the job.

I can see nor prove any burr or such at the chamber mouths.

[Hellgate]

Just bevel a few hundredths of an inch. The Euroarms Remingtons are beveled considerably and generally don't shave lead but swage the ball. A 30 degree bevel would be less noticeable than a 45 degree bevel.

[arcticap]

I wouldn't cut the chamber mouths larger, at least not yet.

The facts as presented show:

1. The chambers were heavily greased.
2. 30 grains of Pyrodex P was loaded under wool wads.
3. The chamber mouths are undersize at .450 yet .454 balls fell out and wouldn't hold.
4. The chambers narrow from .448 to .446 as they deepen from the chamber mouths.
5. The .457 balls cut a good ring of lead yet won't hold in the chamber during routine firing & turning of the cylinder.

6. You think that oversized cylinder mouths or a burr are causing the balls to loosen which can't be verified.

Among the possible causes of the balls falling out:

1. The chambers are too slippery which you indicated that you will clean and dry.

2. The combination of wads, powder and ramming pressure were not sufficient to swage the balls down tightly enough to hold in place because:

a. of insufficient ramming pressure?
b. the .457's are too oversized which makes swaging them more difficult?
c. they can't be rammed deep enough against the wads to swage tightly because the wads are too thick, or are the chambers walls too smooth & slippery from lube?

See what happens while firing it with dry chambers . After seeing your chamber dimensions I still don't see why the .454 balls won't hold.
Next I would eliminate the thicker wads to see if ramming the balls deeper will help them to hold better, and whether it's the thicker wads that are pushing them back out, the lube or a combination of factors.

[Stophel]

Why on earth would you want the chambers to be tapered? That would make the ball swage itself down as you drove it in, and any little jolt might knock it forward, where it would become instantly loose, and the ball fall out...which seems to be exactly what is happening.

[Stophel]

Did a little further research. The 1860 is supposed to have a chamber which is straight for the front part, then tapered slightly beginning about the step in the cylinder, to help clear for the cylinder stop notches, the metal there is paper thin as it is. One person on the CAS board says he has seen Uberti 1860 pistols where the taper begins too soon, and starts where the ball should be seated, and some which are just tapered outright all the way to the opening. They were reamed to square them up.

[pohill]

Colt chamferred or bevelled the chamber mouths to deflect gasses and prevent chainfiring. The question is whether or not the modern BP revolvers are chamferred to the same dimensions (or at least that one). Anyone have an original 1860 .44 to compare?

Also, I doubt they used wads back in the day, or any under-the-ball lubes or fillers, which might keep the ball from seating properly. I know that on my Walker, the ball would rise out of the chamber after ramming due to the cut of the rammer, which produced too much suction.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
This is what seems to be going on. After ramming the ball down , it wants to follow the ram back out as if it is sticking to it.
It oiled the ram a little and it helped.
It acts as if the ram needs a releaf cut of some sort.

I can try loading without the wads too and see if that helps. As stated, I would assume back in the day they did not use wads. I also assume they did not use corn meal or anything else over the powder as time would not have allowed for it.

I found a huge burr on the back plate that would catch and stop the spent primers from moving to the exit after being fired . I filed that out and then polished it in hopes that it may help the spent primers keep on trucking .

It is rare that I have ever bought any gun that has not needed something done to make it work right. But then these only cost just over 200.00 each.
I would rather they cost 300.00 each and worked right to start with.

The idea of a tapered mouth on the chamber seems a little goofy. It may be OK for a start but should not go so deep. The rams only go so far and will only seat the balls just so far. While it may not have to compress the powder it should close up the gap.

All of your responses have been helpful and I will keep checking for them.
Also , I am looking at a set of conversion cylinders for these. I load .45 long colt and have brass and would like to try this too. BP only and would like to get round balls to work like that.

My sons gun {engraved cylinder model} shoots 3/4" groups at 20 yards and seems to hold that rather well. Mine ? Well , his eye s are way better than mine...

[arcticap]

The oversized .457 balls would tend to stick to the ram more due to the extra force required to ram them in.
Smaller balls may swage in better without the thick wool wad. Home made waxboard or card wads aren't nearly as thick.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=98809&d=1243300732

[Hellgate]

I have had rammers grab the ball and pull it up. I then carefully reamed the inner lip of the rammer face to take away the sharp edge that was catching the ball.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Well ;
I unloaded the one that gave me so much trouble. Cleaned out that cylinder.
Found that the wads were most of an 1/8" thick.
Next. I loaded 30 grains of "P" then just the .457 ball. The ram went down that extra 1/8" and that seemed to do it. The balls stay put now and fired right and none of the others came loose will shooting.

I also took that huge burr off where the spent primers were to rotate out .
Only one tried to hand up. I will open that up a little more and that should help there too.
The reason I wanted the wads was to eliminate the need for grease.
But if this can not be , Oh well. I will get some Crisco. The lube 1000 that I have always used seems too loose and is hard to get in there .

I too worked on that ram and it helped a lot. I squared it at the end and then removed the sharp edges and that seemed to help with the balls sticking to it.

So , it looks as if the cylinders were too wet. and I was not getting the balls deep enough.

If you are making your own wads , do you lube them too. Or do you use them dry ? How thick are they ? Is oversized a little OK there ?
I could make my own very easy.
If a standard size hole punch is not right I can make one on my lathe.

You guys have been a lot of help here. Thank You.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Is that an Orange juice jug that you made those wads from ?
Waxed cardboard ?

I could do that.......

[arcticap]

Yes, the 1/2 gallon orange juice cartons are .026-.027 thickness waxboard and the pint size dairy containers are thinner.
These wads are about .4570 - .4580 maximum in diameter with some measuring a hair less.
Put them in and ram the powder down tight, and then ram the ball separately.
Then an extra wad can be put over [or under] the balls too if you want.
A tiny bit of grease on top of one or two chambers helps to provide a a little bit of lubrication.

It's too bad that you can't use the wool wads underneath the balls but at least the they're holding now.

[Hellgate]

Wildfire,
I buy automotive felt (F-1) in 1/8" or 3/16" thicknesses and chuck a 7/16" hole punch into a drill press and over a piece of hardwood I punch out gazillions of wads on the drill press set at a fairly low speed (can't remember). THEN I lube them in 50/50 beeswax and lard or 50/50 Beeswax and olive oil. Oversize can be a problem in cold weather as the wads get hard in the cold.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
I printed your answers this time. I must be getting old or some thing.
I am home and off the road for a week or two now and have so much to do.
I ordered 5 Daisy Red Ryder BB guns and have to get them. Grand Kids and Christmas. Oh and 1 little Buck model too.
She is 3 and is died in the wool . I also got some part ballons and will do a lot of pumpming up of ballons very soon. These little girls will go totally crazy .

My arm will likely fall off by the time it is over.
From cocking those BB guns and pumping up ballons , if I don't freeze to death first.
Anyway , thank you for the help and I will go at it as soon as I can .
I feel kind of stupid on this one. I have been shooting for most of 40 plus years , reloading for over 30 and have more guns then I can count. Just never messed with these BP revolvers. :)

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Well . The gun fire's fine now.
I also had a problem with the primers hanging up. They would jam the whole works up and there you sit . Can't get the hammer back and pretty much so are done.
I removed the burr where the primers are too follow the cylinder out. That worked.
Next I found that my hammer was not hitting the primers hard enough to set them off. I found that the hammer was hitting the frame on the inside curve and that was stopping the hammer from getting all the way to the primer.
I removed .014" from the curve of the hammer and it now sets off all primers.

[Sagetown]

Glad you got those bugs worked out. The splintered caps are always a problem. Seems like the last few years of purchasing NIB arms, I've had a few :uhoh: disappointments in having to learn how to solve relative simple gunsmithing problems :fire: , but I'm far from being a knowlegable gunsmith :scrutiny: .

[arcticap]

So now you've made the poetry in motion act right...Good 'fer ya'! :D

[madcratebuilder]

Another case of a shooter turned gunsmith with the help of an Italian revolver. Good job, hows the arbor fit?

[StrawHat]

madcratebuilder

Another case of a shooter turned gunsmith with the help of an Italian revolver.

Not just Italian revolvers MCB, I've had a few problems with some revolvers built here. No one egts them right all the time, not at prices we can afford. Or at least not that I can afford!

[Wildfire]

Hey :
I have very few guns that did not need some sort of work done on them.

My 1860 is very easy to work on . Some guns are not.

I will own more BP revolvers in the future.

My 1911 colt has over 100,000 rounds through it and still shoots with the best of them. The frame , slide, and barrel are original. More than likely 99% of those rounds were cast bullets.

You were right . The .454" balls work now too. keep the Chambers dry.
I cut thin waxed wads, and put a tiny bit of grease after the balls. Works good. The other store bought wads were too thick.
I will just add them to the give away pile.

[pohill]

I throw this out every now and then- for lube, I've been using the vegetable spray PAM over the loaded balls, and down the barrel. I used it the other day in 30 degree weather. Just a little dab keeps the balls lubed and the barrel clean.
I even sprayed it under the balls once (by accident), right over the powder, and it still worked.
It might not be for everyone, or anyone, but it works for me.

[BCRider]

Pohill, based on a mention on a black powder forum and on a You Tube vid of two folks that used oil instead of "grease" I went with a drop of canola oil over the balls. Part of this was due to the balls being so deep on my Remingtons when loaded with 30 grains that it would have been very difficult to grease them correctly without loading in a HEAP of goo. Meanwhile the drop of oil just wicks around the ball politely and fills in any trace of a void to prevent chainfires. It's super quick, easy to do and seems just as effective as any other method.

Wildfire, it's been quite the learning experience but it's great that the issue has a cure. I have a couple of questions about this though. Just how close a fit is the rammer in the cylinder mouths? If you sealed off the nipple with something and inserted the rammer with a bit of oil around it does it seal and not let air out easily? I'm wondering if you're sucking the balls out to the more open part of the taper and that's why they floated up once the wedging action was compromised. The other thought is the mention from a few posts back about the rammer cup tending to grab the balls as they swage slightly into closer contact. You said that the issue wasn't as bad when you oiled the cup. Might be that some polishing of the cup and perhaps a very slight relief around the rim would be called for.

Determining what angle a taper locks and retains the lock is a function of the coefficient of friction between the two surfaces and how much that coefficient is modified by adding a lubricant. That's why why some of the various machine work tapers are considered as self locking while other tapers are merely self aligning. The taper suggested by your measurements suggests that it's in the self locking range. But if something pulls the ball back even a little as the rammer is being retracted then all bets are off. Once the ball shifts and the lock is lost it'll float back. In this case the suggestion is that the air trapped between the lube pill and ball was enough to force the lock. But perhaps it had some help from the rammer as it lifted away?

[arcticap]

I cut thin waxed wads, and put a tiny bit of grease after the balls. Works good.

How did you make your wadcutter?

Now that you're doing it too I don't feel like such a...Lonesome Dove! :D

[Hellgate]

Get get a hole punch set at a hardware store. I use the 3/8" for the 36cal and the 7/16" for the 44s. Chuck the punch into a drill press and cut the wads out over a block of wood at a slow speed (high speed may cut better but will fling them farther after the punch fills up with cut wads). Then melt up your lube, dump a bunch in to soak it up and lay them out on a piece of foil to cool.

[Wildfire]

Hey :
Well, you guys are on to me. I did everything as wrong as I could starting out. The ram was too sharp and at times would cut too deep into the balls that it would grab them , add to that the idea that I put lube on the ram to make it NOT stick is what made it create suction.
I chucked it in my lathe and squared it off a bit and removed the sharp edge. Inside and out. That helped. Then used it dry. That helped more.

You are right , once that ball starts in one direction it can not even slightly revese or it will loose its power to hold.
I start the ball , back off to make sure that it is not sticking to the ram and then push it home. In a now dry chamber. They hold.

I used a hole punch and cut some waxed cardboard of .23" thick. {All I could find} The hole punch leaves a nice thin .454" wad. It seems to slide in OK and stay put. I will go a little thicker .

I then as some said put a tiny bit of lube 1000 on each chamber mouth and she fired fine.
I still have some what of an issue with primers but , started pushing them on harder with a small screw driver and even wedging them a bit . Just till I could see them flare a little. They now stay on and fire every time.
Funny part of that is the primers that work the best are CCI # 11s.

In the future I will likely get a set of good nipples and go from there.

[madcratebuilder]

I still have some what of an issue with primers but , started pushing them on harder with a small screw driver and even wedging them a bit . Just till I could see them flare a little. They now stay on and fire every time.
Funny part of that is the primers that work the best are CCI # 11s.

You can chuck the nipples in a drill and carefully reshape the taper with a file for a better cap fit. I reshape mine for a good fit with CCI caps as that is what I have available local.