Original Black Talon ammo


PDA






oldman1946
December 6, 2009, 10:17 PM
I recently came into ownership of several hundred rounds of the original Black Talon ammo in both .40 cal, .45acp, 9mm and .357 mag.

Has anyone got any experience with this type ammo? A friend passed away and his family gave me his stash of Black Talon ammo. I have heard and read that it is very good ammo for personal defense but have not had any personal experience with it. The lack of personal experience did not keep me from accepting over 2,000 rounds of it for free.

I just would like to know how others feel it performs.

If you enjoyed reading about "Original Black Talon ammo" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
PT1911
December 6, 2009, 10:21 PM
because of goverment pressure to stop producing the "cop killer" bullets, winchester stopped producing them. Remingtons Golden sabers are essentially their new incarnation. Good enough bullets if they have been stored well, people are paying crazy amounts for them for their reputation, but I dont see the point... cant complain about what has been given to you... you could make some money on that stash... BTW...

essayons21
December 6, 2009, 10:22 PM
My understanding is that it is no different than standard self-defense rounds of the era. Comparable to early Federal Hydrashok. The teflon coating was designed to aid feeding, and had no impact on terminal ballistics. I still have a box given to me by my uncle, I'm keeping it as a curiosity.

If your stash is still in original boxes, I would keep it or sell it on Gunbroker. It will probably be somewhat collectible someday.

cbrgator
December 6, 2009, 10:25 PM
OMG!!! Not the cop-killers!!!

I would keep half of them as novelties, and sell the other half for a ridiculously high price on gunbroker. Then use the money to acquire some of today's finer self defense rounds.

Samgotit
December 6, 2009, 10:40 PM
^ This. Sell it to mall ninjas on Gunbroker for an inflated price.

This round was relabeled and, reportedly, improved slightly by Winchester. The scary black coating, Lubalox, was removed and the round is simply called Ranger SXT or T series. The retail boxes now are labeled "Law Enforcement" although it's readily available to the general public.

As part of the folklore, many claim SXT is short for 'Same eXact Thing'.

84B20
December 6, 2009, 11:49 PM
I had them years ago when I lived in California, had a CCW and with all the hysteria surrounding them I decided with the courts the way they were going to abandon the use. I did, however test fire a round in a 55 gallon barrel of water to see the effect. Here is the shot I saved.

geronimo509
December 7, 2009, 12:04 AM
You could always shoot and carry every Black Talon you have, Except save ONE round and sell it individually on gunbroker(I think) and make an unbelievable amount of money(that you will never get). :evil:



ps. Caution should be used and I am not to be held liable for anything.

anyone remember that old thread:D

mljdeckard
December 7, 2009, 12:07 AM
They are very good like.....every other premium JHP round from that timeframe.

Winchester repackaged them and sold them as Rangers. Most of their value lies in their notoriety.

Avenger29
December 7, 2009, 12:10 AM
Sell it for a healthy profit. It's nothing special, but people that don't know any better will pay a premium for it. I wouldn't be suprised if you could get a buck a round for it.

Buy some modern JHP ammunition. It's better.

chuckusaret
December 7, 2009, 12:17 AM
I have a 20 round box of .40 cal Black Talons I believe I bought in 1992 and I also have a few boxes of Ranger SXT's or the
“Same eXact Thing” as Black Talons without the black tip.

Kashtin
December 7, 2009, 12:32 AM
I've got a bunch of old S&W Nyclad stuff. That was the original 'evil black bullet', designed for nothing but the 'teflon' coating being able to pierce bullet proof vests. (Yeah, riiiiiiiiight.)

If it looks different, the anti's will jump on it as a rallying point.

basicblur
December 7, 2009, 12:40 AM
I'm pretty sure I read way back in one o' Ayoobs books that the Black Talon actually penetrated too deeply before expanding. One of the changes made to the Ranger T/SXT etc was to have it expand earlier.

If you do a search on YouTube (Black Talon vs. Ranger etc) you'll probably find more than 1 video where both rounds are fired in various substances and compared. I've seen a number of 'em, and if sharp edges are what scares ya, the Ranger actually looked "scarier" than the Black Talon (in the videos I saw).

Been kinda collecting SD ammo lately-bought some Rangers on Ammuniton to Go (when he lowered his price from obscene to merely ridiculous).
Comparing the opening on the ends of various ammo, it looks like Winchester and Remington Golden Sabers have 'bout the smallest openings of the various stuff I've seen, if your gun is affected by that sort of thing.

'Course, I buy only stuff in 50 round boxes-I ain't paying what the 20/25 round box makers are asking for their stuff! :cuss:

ny32182
December 7, 2009, 12:42 AM
I'd definitely sell it.

I couldn't shoot it knowing it is worth $1/pop, and I could sell it and get two or three times more modern/better ammo with the proceeds.

armoredman
December 7, 2009, 01:32 AM
Can I have a box in 9mm? :)

hometheaterman
December 7, 2009, 01:59 AM
If you want to sell any let me know.

Frank Ettin
December 7, 2009, 02:54 AM
[1] Black Talon was good ammunition in its day.

[2] Since then, there have been some considerable advances in bullet design and technology. So the Black Talons probably aren't as good as the best of today's offerings, like HSTs.

[3] In the meantime, it's my understanding that Black Talons have become sort of a collector's item. You might want to check current prices on GunBroker.

[4] So sell some to buy more modern self defense ammunition and keep the rest for collector interest.

kanook
December 7, 2009, 08:57 AM
I currently carry and use it for hunting and SD. When it was new I tried it for my 357 and was pleased so bought about 500 rds. I haven't had that many critters get in my sights yet.

mchaley
December 7, 2009, 09:09 AM
I heard that some autos like these rounds better because of the Teflon coating. I don't know much about these rounds so I'm not even sure if they HAVE a Teflon coating.

If they do, the coating can make loading easier. That's what I've gathered from my friend who -only- fires Black Talons from one of his 1911s.

I also heard that Winchester came out with the SXT's and that they stand for "Same Xact Thing" ;) Needless to say, I hear they're pretty close to the BT's.

Deus Machina
December 7, 2009, 09:27 AM
IIRC, it's a moly coating, and it does reduce friction.

Not enough to matter. The SXT's are just the Black Talons, without the 'black'. They slap the 'law enforcement ammunition' title on it, and suddenly they're not so evil. :rolleyes:

mchaley
December 7, 2009, 10:05 AM
Does the coating help increase muzzle velocity?

svaz
December 7, 2009, 12:36 PM
The big hoopla I remember was that the "talons" caused severe lacerations in the temporary stretch cavity (in addition to the whole getting shot thing) thereby making your assailant bleed out faster. Gimmicky if you ask me, but they did feed well in my Hi-Power.

Leanwolf
December 7, 2009, 03:35 PM
I bought five boxes, 100 rounds of .45 ACP Black Talons when they came out years ago. Shot a box in my Govt. Model Colt but couldn't tell much difference between them and other good hollow points. Used a water medium for testing. Didn't bother to shoot the rest. IIRC, I paid $12.00 per box.

About one year before the election of The Great Lord Obamacus Rex The Magnificent. The One Mighty And Strong, The Most Righteous Savior Of Mankind, I sold the four remaining boxes of .45 ACP Black Talon, 20 rounds per box, for $45.00 per box.

Wonder what I could have got after the election?? :uhoh:

L.W.

unspellable
December 7, 2009, 07:21 PM
I had an article about a road test of the Black Talon stuff in the heavier calibers, 44 Mag, 357 Mag, 10 mm. The conclusion was that they made a better deer hunting round than a SD round. The write up included some actual hunting and results shooting deer.

There are some differences in what you want a SD vs deer bullet to do. One of those differences is that you want a SD bullet to open up a bit quicker than a deer bullet.

possom813
December 7, 2009, 09:07 PM
If it helps to learn what they're worth value-wise, I just traded 17 .45acp black talons to a fellow for a BSA Boresight kit.

nathan
December 7, 2009, 09:10 PM
The Talon name was overhyped as a cop killer after all the media raucous. ALso when Winchester stop making them then the more the mystic become bigger and bigger. Its no different from today's modern JHPs.

sheepdog
December 7, 2009, 09:18 PM
...Winchester come out with one that performed the same way but was named something else to escape the hype/furor??? XTP or something close???

Bufford t. Justice
December 7, 2009, 09:31 PM
I'd definitely sell it.

I couldn't shoot it knowing it is worth $1/pop, and I could sell it and get two or three times more modern/better ammo with the proceeds.
You think that's bad you should try feeding my 458 Socom.........$65 per 20

Hang on to those Black Talons. In ten years when everyone else has run out you can get $3 a round out of them from the mall ninjas.

DammitBoy
December 7, 2009, 09:38 PM
I recently came into ownership of several hundred rounds of the original Black Talon ammo in both .40 cal, .45acp, 9mm and .357 mag.

Has anyone got any experience with this type ammo?

I'm sorry you got stuck with that useless crap ammo.

In fact, I feel so bad about it - I'll do you a favor and pay the freight for you to ship it all to me and $200 for your trouble... :D

c919
December 7, 2009, 10:22 PM
Well here's my take on it...

I would sell them or shoot them at water jugs, melons and other fun stuff, but I wouldn't use them for HD/SD. You could get a ton of money out of them and spend it on other cool stuff.

The reason I wouldn't use them for SD is I could see a prosecutors dream unfolding if, God forbid, you ever had to use them. I would hate to be on the stand trying to explain why I used evil Black Talon cop killer rounds that were outlawed due to their extremely cruel design. I know and you know that any HP is designed to stop a threat and all are, give or take a little, the same. They are designed to tear through flesh and kill people, which would only make sense in a situation where deadly force was justified and needed. However, a prosecutor could spin that in a nasty way. Plus, let's face it, your average jury wouldn't know much about ammo, and it could get you off to a bad start just trying to justify using these rounds that were deemed inhumane or whatever.

kanook
December 7, 2009, 10:39 PM
your average jury wouldn't know much about ammoevil Black Talon cop killer rounds that were outlawed They were never outlawed.

Beelzy
December 7, 2009, 10:53 PM
LOL!!!

They weren'ti touted as Cop Killer bullets. The Medical profession was the bad guy.

Doctors were cutting themselves up reaching into victims shot with them who happened
to be infected with HIV/AIDS. They made quite a stink about those flared out sharp
edges.

When the Ny-clad 9mm ammo came out several years before, those were the Cop Killer
bullets. What a laugh that was.

c919
December 7, 2009, 11:32 PM
They were never outlawed.

Ok that was poor wording on my part. I understand that they were not outlawed. I was simply putting an anti spin on the topic and my descriptions were meant as tongue and cheek.

Doctors were cutting themselves up reaching into victims shot with them who happened
to be infected with HIV/AIDS. They made quite a stink about those flared out sharp
edges.


That's silly. I don't think this would be a valid reason to stop production. I guess almost every HP ever made should have been canned as well :rolleyes: , because if they expand at all there are going to be some sharp edges.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:iQyhlfyWp5NynM:http://www.learnaboutguns.com/img/jhp.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:YemK0airflU8xM:http://38super.net/Images/factory%2520expansion/CORBON%2520115.jpg

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:UNnkf_x856iucM:http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/P220ammo_files/image022.jpg

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Misc_Images/DocGKR/Handgun_expanded_JHP.jpg

Sharp edges.

EvanWilliams
December 7, 2009, 11:39 PM
Nothing special. It is a hot load, like a hydroshock or Ranger. I shot mine up. I didn't want to risk shooting someone with a non PC round. Why add that to the mix? Now I carry designated "personal defense" rounds.

Beelzy
December 7, 2009, 11:51 PM
The ammo was sharp, the doctors complained, the media ran with it, and Winchester
caved........I kinda was there.

Also, like no other Firearm or related industry has caved due to media B.S before??

(CoughS&WCoughRuger)

Defense Minister
December 8, 2009, 12:23 AM
Not that you need any more advice, but, if it were me, I'd sell every round on Gunbroker, and buy a bunch more ammo with the money.

And, yes, it was originally the surgeons who worked on people shot with them that gave these bullets a bad rap.

762minigun
December 8, 2009, 12:32 AM
I remember watching some propaganda on one of the talking head networks, in the early 90's. They had a Dr. on that spoke about getting his gloves tore removing a fired projectile. Winchester voluntarily removed the Black Talon brand from the market. Lets not forget it came back as the Winchester Ranger. As far as this ammo goes either sell it or shoot it, or collect it. It is getting close to being 20 years old. I sold off all the BT's I had stored away long time ago.

NWCP
December 8, 2009, 12:41 AM
I still have some Black Talon in 9mm. They feed well and are accurate. The new Ranger SXT is basically the same ammo. I've since gone to using Golden Sabers when carrying 9mm. I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of either.

S&W-Keeper
December 8, 2009, 10:19 PM
Check out the price they are going for at gun shows.It is to valuable to shoot.It is no better than some of the other name brands, but it does have quite a following.

pyth0n
December 8, 2009, 10:36 PM
In the aftermath of the NY subway shooting, 1993, Winchester voluntarily stopped making the Black Talon. Colin Ferguson was using Black Talons in a Ruger. The news made a big deal of the color and name of the ammo. Winchester changed the color and name. I believe some of the names was Ranger SXT, Fail safe. The basic design was the same. The Doctor thing was of all hollow points but not necessarily instigated by the Talons, just more fuel for the fire. The news failed to report that Most police agencies, except the NYPD, were using Hollow Points.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Talon

Deltaboy
December 8, 2009, 10:50 PM
Sell them sucker and make a killing!

Leafy Cronmer
February 12, 2010, 09:01 PM
From what I understand the Winchester Ranger, is the same thing sold under a different name. California's Sheriff department issued them to the officers. I was also told that one of the reasons for not making them anymore was that "black" was no PC enough.

SteelyNirvana
February 12, 2010, 09:07 PM
I bought a half empty box of .40 S&W Talon's this evening for $3 from a lady who was selling her deceased husbands ammo. I bought them just to put on display with my other 'old' ammo on my gun rack. I'm sure they will make a good conversation piece next time I have friends over.

The Lone Haranguer
February 12, 2010, 09:13 PM
If I came into that much, I would sell it for the collector prices it now brings and use the proceeds to buy (not limited to) more ammo.

Erik M
February 12, 2010, 09:43 PM
No idea why this thread was rezzed, Op hasn't been online in well over a month. I'd say he decided what to to with them.

wgaynor
February 12, 2010, 10:43 PM
I remember my Father buying cases of these right before they were banned. I think they're collecting dust. (maybe he'll will them to me).

Full Metal Jacket
February 12, 2010, 11:17 PM
original black talon was a poor performer. gained fame due to media hype, rather than stopping power.

kanook
February 12, 2010, 11:41 PM
I remember my Father buying cases of these right before they were bannedThey were not BANNED

original black talon was a poor performer.WRONG, they were great and still are. I've been using them all along and have never had a single failure to expand, or feed wether in my lever, semi, or revolver.

hogshead
February 12, 2010, 11:51 PM
Sell them or trade them to Gecko 45, might even get one of his armor plates. I had 12 bt in 44 mag sold'em for 40 bucks. Given the chance I 'd do it again.

Deacon Blues
February 12, 2010, 11:59 PM
My dad shot them for a while, and still has a few boxes somewhere, along with a few perfectly-expanded ones. As a kid, I thought they looked really cool, but we both knew they weren't that special.

Didn't Al Sharpton make a big fuss when the LAPD adopted 124gr Gold Dots? Nobody at Speer seems to care (and thank goodness).

Full Metal Jacket
February 13, 2010, 12:57 AM
WRONG, they were great and still are. I've been using them all along and have never had a single failure to expand, or feed wether in my lever, semi, or revolver.

um, nope.

the current talon designs have been modified quite a few times. in fact the ra45t's just underwent another mod for increased expansion just last year.

they are far superior to the original, which were poor performers.



<..."Yuck," said Art. "Snark!"...>

Defense Minister
February 13, 2010, 12:58 AM
Sell it on Gunbroker for a ridiculously high price, then use the money to buy a new gun, and some good defensive ammo from doubletapammo.com.

Art Eatman
February 13, 2010, 01:44 AM
Unnecessary Necrothreadia.

If you enjoyed reading about "Original Black Talon ammo" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!