Officer's Model Extraction issues


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jobu07
December 7, 2009, 11:25 AM
Hello all,

I've got a 80s Series Officer's Model that is erractic with its extraction. What's happening is rounds are being partially extracted and not ejected causing me to have to lock back the slide, drop the mag, and free the errant round.

To this point stripped and meticulously cleaned numerous times, scrubbed the heck out of the chamber, and tried various mags in it from factory to high end(although that shouldn't be the issue I think). I'm not sure if the issue is the chamber area, my ejector, extractor, or possibly something i'm unaware of.

I decided i'd defer to the wealth of knowledge available in our community here. I'm proficient with tinkering but don't feel comfortable doing any sort physical changes to the weapon (would rather have a smith do that). So, that said, whacha think? Thanks!

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10X
December 7, 2009, 12:22 PM
If the gun is all factory like it sounds, my first guess is that you are using Wolff ammo or some other steel or aluminum case ammo. Wolff is notorious for failure to extract.

If the case is only partially extracted, the ejector has come into play yet. If the extractor hook is still on the case rim, it is doing its job.
It is possible to have a rough chamber, but that is very unlikely with a Colt.

gb6491
December 7, 2009, 12:59 PM
Check the extractor tension:
http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm
http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/ejection%20perfection.htm
Regards,
Greg

jobu07
December 7, 2009, 01:53 PM
Thanks for the tips on extractor tension. I'll look into it tonight.

Ammo being used exclusively is winchester white box, 230 gr. FMJ.

Drail
December 7, 2009, 03:45 PM
Also inspect the extractor hook to see if a piece has been chipped off. Inspect the extractor tunnel in the slide for carbon buildup and clean it. Crud in the tunnel can keep the extractor from being able to flex enough to seat the hook on the case rim.

jobu07
December 7, 2009, 10:04 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. I tore her apart when I got home from work tonight and referenced the parts against the websites provided. Here's what I came up with:

The extractor seems to be at the right tension to hold the round in place with the pin stop in place. It holds a loaded 45 in place pretty good but I do not need to force it in place.

The extractor seems very stock in its shape - not very beveled. I'm going to take a file and put just a very small bevel in it for now. Extractor i

The top corner of the ejector, facing forward, has a very slight peen in it. The website recommended the ejector come to a point, 10 degree angle up and down. Colt put an angle on this from the bottom going about 3/4 way up then it is flat and comes to the top of the ejector. I think i'll just touch it with a file to take away the peen.

There was no excessive crud under the extractor as disassemble and clean fairly frequently (go through a lot of q-tips!).

And, again, I only run brass cased ammo through this weapon. 99% of the rounds through it have been winchester white box. The other 1% has been remington value packs.

So, anymore advice or should the minor changes I'm planning right now work? Should I take it to a 1911 guru and have him work it over? Of course, the only way to know if the changes make a difference, good or bad, is to shoot it...

CWL
December 7, 2009, 11:53 PM
Have you tried 200gr or 185gr loads through it?

Some 3" M1911s are finicky with the ammo because of the lightness & short travel of the slide. The timing of the slide travel may be affected to the point where you are not getting reliable recoil/extraction/ejection.

rcmodel
December 8, 2009, 02:41 PM
I hate to drag out the L word, but:

Is there any chance you are Limp Wresting the gun occasionally?

Lighter slide and lighter gun + heavier recoil spring makes Shorty .45's more susceptible to being held to loosely and not having enough mass to push against for the slide & extracted case to hit the ejector..

It's impossible to limp wrest a full size 1911, but not so much with a 3" one.

rc

MICHAEL T
December 8, 2009, 03:29 PM
That is possible have another person try shooting Remember a death grip doesn't prevent Limp wrist. My daughters X boy friend couldn't shoot my 380 Bersa He jammed it every time No one else including her had trouble
I have 2 Officers ,1 Defender , 1 New Agent. and 1 old Detonics They all have been reliable Defender is one of my main carry pistols

Pappy109
December 8, 2009, 04:29 PM
I hate to drag out the L word, but:

Is there any chance you are Limp Wresting the gun occasionally?

Lighter slide and lighter gun + heavier recoil spring makes Shorty .45's more susceptible to being held to loosely and not having enough mass to push against for the slide & extracted case to hit the ejector..

It's impossible to limp wrest a full size 1911, but not so much with a 3" one.

rc
It's impossible to limp wrist a full size 1911, sorry I am just not buying that at all.

jobu07
December 8, 2009, 04:40 PM
Heh, the "L" word.

I had contemplated that but don't believe it's the case. I've been shooting pistols for some time, including this one, and never had a limp wrist issue. I was just taught the proper mechanics of how to hold it and never had an issue.

Makes me wonder if something has occurred to the gun to make it happen though. The problem never occurred in the past but my last few range trips all I got were the jams. I haven't made any recent changes to the weapon either - save for magazines after the problem developed.

Edit - I remember buying this pistol after shooting a friends Colt Officer's that I absolutely loved. Never had any issues shooting his.

Pappy109
December 8, 2009, 05:05 PM
Heh, the "L" word.

I had contemplated that but don't believe it's the case. I've been shooting pistols for some time, including this one, and never had a limp wrist issue. I was just taught the proper mechanics of how to hold it and never had an issue.

Makes me wonder if something has occurred to the gun to make it happen though. The problem never occurred in the past but my last few range trips all I got were the jams. I haven't made any recent changes to the weapon either - save for magazines after the problem developed.

Edit - I remember buying this pistol after shooting a friends Colt Officer's that I absolutely loved. Never had any issues shooting his.
Do you have any way to measure the extractor angle and tension?

jobu07
December 8, 2009, 06:20 PM
No way to measure it except eyeball. I saw the picture on one of the linked websites for a comparison though.

rcmodel
December 8, 2009, 06:26 PM
It's impossible to limp wrist a full size 1911, sorry I am just not buying that at all. You can shoot a mil-spec GI issue 1911 with only your thumb and trigger finger holding it.
It will work until you get tired of doing it to show people it will still work that way.

BTDT many times over.

Todays mongrel 1911's are not mil-spec 1911's, and are tighter, with usually stronger springs, etc.
Some of them just don't work, even if you do hold them correctly.

rc

Pappy109
December 8, 2009, 06:59 PM
Sorry, but with all due respect I am still not buying it. I have limp wristed a Colt, Remington, Ithaca and a Singer in my day causing a FTF.

Pappy109
December 8, 2009, 07:03 PM
You can shoot a mil-spec GI issue 1911 with only your thumb and trigger finger holding it.
It will work until you get tired of doing it to show people it will still work that way.

BTDT many times over.

Todays mongrel 1911's are not mil-spec 1911's, and are tighter, with usually stronger springs, etc.
Some of them just don't work, even if you do hold them correctly.

rc
I also read you had some questions for me. Sorry, I had to run, but I was running the milling machine cutting a Springer slide for some Hinie Sights and trying to wrestle a MIM disconnector out of a jammed Kimber.

Pappy109
December 8, 2009, 07:09 PM
No way to measure it except eyeball. I saw the picture on one of the linked websites for a comparison though.
Without seeing it or putting it on a tension meter or putting a micrometer on the cylindrical contact points the best advice I am able to give you is to replace it with a Wilson from Brownelles.

Pappy109
December 8, 2009, 07:18 PM
Now if you want to play with it just take two adjustable wrenches on the flat surfaces and give it a tweak following the bend. Make sure it not twisted also. The fitting or tuning is an acquired art using a live round in a slide stripped of everything but the extractor and the plate that holds it. You want to get it tight enough to holds the round against the breach face flat so it won't fall out while it still slips under the hook with minimal pressure. If you like to tinker like you say that would be a great learning experience. Not to mention fun and a great sense of accomplishment if you are successful.

Pappy

Cloudpeak
December 8, 2009, 08:06 PM
I've got a 80s Series Officer's Model that is erractic with its extraction. What's happening is rounds are being partially extracted and not ejected causing me to have to lock back the slide, drop the mag, and free the errant round.

New or old officer? How many rounds?

I assume you mean the fired brass is partially extracted and not ejected, not a loaded round.

Consistent position of the fired case when it's jammed? Got a picture of the jam?

Have you always used the same ammunition and did the pistol operate 100% until recently?

Have you checked the extractor for "clocking"?

Anything changed between 100% functioning and now? (new recoil spring, etc.)

I think pappy109 might be on to something. Sounds like the extractor is losing control of the brass before it can strike the ejector with the force required to eject cleanly. You might need a bit more tension on the extractor.

jobu07
December 8, 2009, 08:45 PM
Now if you want to play with it just take two adjustable wrenches on the flat surfaces and give it a tweak following the bend. Make sure it not twisted also. The fitting or tuning is an acquired art using a live round in a slide stripped of everything but the extractor and the plate that holds it. You want to get it tight enough to holds the round against the breach face flat so it won't fall out while it still slips under the hook with minimal pressure. If you like to tinker like you say that would be a great learning experience. Not to mention fun and a great sense of accomplishment if you are successful.

I played around with this last night. I'm able to hold a live round against the breach face with minimal pressue sliding it under the extractor. Seems to work just like they stated in the websites that were linked earlier in the thread.

New or old officer? How many rounds?

I assume you mean the fired brass is partially extracted and not ejected, not a loaded round.

Consistent position of the fired case when it's jammed? Got a picture of the jam?

Have you always used the same ammunition and did the pistol operate 100% until recently?

Have you checked the extractor for "clocking"?

Anything changed between 100% functioning and now? (new recoil spring, etc.)

I think pappy109 might be on to something. Sounds like the extractor is losing control of the brass before it can strike the ejector with the force required to eject cleanly. You might need a bit more tension on the extractor.

It has been a while since I looked at dates but I believe this gun was made in 84 or thereabouts.

I do not have a picture of the jam, however, the last two mags I ran through it would not reliably extract any rounds in the mag. It did seem like the extractor lacked the tension it needed.

I checked the extractor for clocking like the previous mentioned website stated. No dice with that. The extractor will not rotate with the retaining plate in.

Pistol has operated 100% up until very recently, no new springs or anything of the like.

Assuming this is an extractor issue and not an ejector, I should take the extractor and use an adjustable wrench to bend it slightly towards the round? Also, I'm bending only the front half of the extractor i'm assuming... I'm a newb to 1911 tuning. I've only bought'em, shot'em, cleaned'em, lubed'em before!

jobu07
December 13, 2009, 06:31 PM
I want to thank those of you who contributed to this thread. Over the last week I've done some research based on the information provided on a couple of websites (http://www.m1911.org/technic2.htm and http://www.brazoscustom.com/magart/e...perfection.htm) that you gents were so kind to pass on to me.

My Colt, as always, has been kept very clean so this was not determined to be an issue. Limp wristing, while a very remote possibility, was not a contributing factor.

I found a small amount of peening on the top side of my ejector. I took a file to this to smooth it out. Also, according to the previously mentioned websites the ejector should have two 10 degree angles on the face of it meeting at a point. Mine has one and a flat side. I touched this up while I was in there.

My extractor, which was probably most of the problem, seemed just fine at first glance. I did, as you everyone mentioned, bend it just a slight amount to try to put some more force on the rim of the cartridges. Although, before I did this, the extractor was still able to hold a live cartridge on the breach face without too much hassle; however, I felt a little bending couldn't hurt.

And lastly, I decided to upgrade the dual coil recoil spring with a Wolff brand product (24 lbs). Wolff shipped this to me with a new heavy duty firing pin spring as well. I figure it wouldn't hurt anything so that went in as well.

Side note - I can't stand the retaining plunger and spring of the wonderful 80 series pistol... I must have spent 4 or 5 hours looking for that sucker because I got sloppy while disassembling the pistol. :banghead: Always cup that hand over the spring!

My conclusions at the range today were positive. The little pony hammered away with no issues using my Wilson Combat magazines, although, i'm going to tweek my factory Colt mags in the near future to see if I can get them to feed reliably. The ammo fired again, as always, was Winchester White Box. Everything seemed to go off without a hitch. About the only issues I faced this morning were gail force winds blowing sand and dust up into my face along with all the hardware I brought out. It felt like I was in an Iraqi sand storm again.

At this point I'm feeling pretty good about the pistol again. Although I may give the extrator a little more bending just to prevent any future issues. I don't want to over bend, though, which may cause more issues.

Again, thanks to all who helped me out with this little issue.

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