[Smokey Joe]

Knife Knuts: I'm pretty good at sharpening knives by hand. Have a collection of the usual medium and hard Arkansas stones and an assortment of diamond hones in various grits. 2 different honing oils; a couple of strops. That's not the problem!

The problem is, that I've become somewhat notorious for being able to put an edge on a knife, among my friends & acquaintances, and that's good, too--I sharpen their knives, they track my deer, et cetera.

The REAL problem is anno domini. I've gotten to the age where after sharpening, say, 3 fixed blade sheath knives in a row, my hands hurt. I don't want to stop sharpening guys' knives, though. It's a nice social skill.

The solution as I see it is to get some sort of grinder--it'll have to be at least sort of portable--to do some of the heavy, hard-on-the-thumbs, work for me.

I've read on these fora of several machines that the pros use--are any of these available to the general public, somewhat portable, cost less than an arm and a leg, and not require a PhD in metallurgy to use?

Suggestions, anyone?

[7X57chilmau]

Use a belt grinder like the makers do.... And then finish off with a quick polish'n'strop..... It's the re-setting of the edge from butter-knife dull that wears the fingers outta us..... A nice 400 grit belt will do that for ya.

J

[JTW Jr.]

Pricey : Tormac

Less pricey : bench grinder with a cardboard wheel set up.

I use my BaderIII ( very pricey @$2400 ) to bring the edge to a burr , then take it to the cardboard wheel loaded with polishing compound.

Others have had good luck using a Delta 1x42 , which I used to use prior to getting the Bader.

[Zeke/PA]

Check out the sharpners marketed by The Edgecraft Corp. Avondale, PA.
These sharpners DO work !

[hso]

A Chef's Choice 120 will get you started so that you can finish up.

Short of a bench grinder with a wheel and rouge this is the best way to go and still be toteable.

[Smokey Joe]

Appreciate the responses so far! Where do I look for a belt grinder? or a Chefs Choice 120? And, BTW, what is this "Japanese water stone machine" that gets mentioned from time to time.

7x57 Chilmau--It's the re-setting of the edge from butter-knife dull that wears the fingers outta us.....MAN, you ain't just a-whistlin' Dixie!

JTW, Jr--Less pricey : bench grinder with a cardboard wheel set up.Common ordinary electric bench grinder?? Hey, I've got one of those! What is a "cardboard wheel set up?"

Sorry to sound so naive--I really haven't paid any attention to mechanical sharpeners at all, having been up 'til now very satisfied with my results by hand.

[JTW Jr.]

check here: http://www.sharpeningwheels.com/

I use the variable speed bench grinder that Sears sells , works well so far.

[Zeke/PA]

Cabela's has a very good selection of Chef's Choice offerings or you may try a more local kitchen and bath oriented shop.

[Zeke/PA]

A bench grinder is an ABSOLUTE No- No in knife sharpening!
A belt sander is a much better option provided the operator has developed the certain required "touch" and other cautions are adhered to.
My suggestion is the Spyderco Sharpmaker System which inatially requires some elbow grease but makes subsecuent sharpening tasks MUCH simpler.

[JTW Jr.]

A bench grinder with the paper wheels is totally different than a stone wheel. If you have not tried it , you do not know what you are missing. Just as with a belt , you have to be mindful of your heat in the blade , but either is a far better option than a Chefs Choice , which will NEVER be used by me.

For sharpening alot of knives and for other people , the sharpmaker would be my last choice. The Edge Pro would be a better choice .

How many knives on avg are you sharpening a month Smokey Joe ?

[rcmodel]

A bench grinder is an ABSOLUTE No- No in knife sharpening!Oh?

Then how come I have been using one in conjunction with a belt sander to make very sharp knives for about 40 years now?

There is no reason you can't use a bench grinder if you use a lick of common sense and don't over-heat or burn the blade.

The board sharpening wheels, leather faced, and hard felt buffing wheels with proper compound, will put a shaving edge on any knife in nothing flat.

rc

[Zeke/PA]

Hi Friends,
I guess it really all boils down to what you mean by a "bench grinder".
In my knife making days I used a home built grinder to hollow grind blades that takes a 2" wide X 152" belt.
This grinder is of course mounted to a BENCH!
I was actually involved in the DEVELOPMENT of the Edgecraft Sharpener and it DOES sharpen knives.
HOWEVER, it ain't perfect and I RARELY use it myself.
Sharpening??
After OVER 50 YEARS in the Toolmaking Trade, I really like to hear about methods but for the most part, I can say, "been there, done that".

[JTW Jr.]

You said a bench grinder was a NO in knife sharpening , yet you refer to a bench grinder as a belt grinder.

Do you realize that the majority of custom knifemakers , use the same grinder they make the blade with to sharpen the knife ? If you know how to use the tool correctly there is no risk to ruining the blade. Every knife I have made has been sharpened on this machine.

This is what I use:
http://members.cox.net/spannerboy1/bader/b3b.jpg

[Zeke/PA]

JTW,
READ my post!
I stated that it's "What you REALLY mean by a BENCH GRINDER".
To me, a BENCH GRINDER is a device with a 6"TO 8" wheel on the left AND the right side of a motor with which things are CONSTANTLY screwed up from knife blades to mower blades.
I own several BELT GRINDERS/SANDERS and I am totally aware of the difference in my viewpoint.
Regards, Zeke

[JTW Jr.]

My bad bud.... guess I should have had my 4th cup of coffee before reading...looks like we are on the same page , even if my book is upside down ;)

[Zeke/PA]

JTW,
That's great!
Surely it's better to learn from each other than to attempt to create controversy.
Let's swap knife making/ sharpening ideas from here on out.
Respectfully, Zeke

[Smokey Joe]

I'm sure glad that Zeke and JTW now understand each other--The last thing in my mind when I started this thread was to create controversy!

To answer JTW's question of how many knives each month, the answer of course is, "It varies." The most are during deer hunting seasons, but I get a small number of requests most of the other months. Not enough in total, to justify a large cash layout.

The hardest to do by hand are the fishing filet knives, with their long, narrow, thin, flexible blades. Well, except for the knives that some person has apparently been chopping rocks with and now wants sharpened--ahem!

Your answers here so far are: I should use a variable speed grinder with cardboard wheels, or, a belt sander with 400 grit, perhaps a Delta 1x42, or a Chefs Choice 120, which I can get from Cabela's for $139.99. Each of these has also garnered a resounding "NO!" from some other sharpener-expert-person!

I could probably justify an outlay of $140 for the Chefs Choice (well, as a "want it," not as a "need it!") but will check out the other options as well.

Thanks and appreciation to all who have been kind enough to respond. I'll keep you posted on the results.

[conwict]

There's always the harbor freight 1x32 for about $40. Seems to work okay from reviews.

[JTW Jr.]

HF 1 x30 , often on sale for $40 , cardboard wheels $40 , get a bench grinder , remove the stones and you are in business....either way you have plenty of options. With a small belt machine and the wheels you can sharpen anything from filet to axes. :)

[A1knifesharpening]

I have been sharpening knives for most of my life, but I needed a faster way to get the edge I wanted. That is when I discovered The Sharp Shop Machine. The builder of this machine just happened to stop at my house during a yard sale. I noticed he had a sign on his car for professional knife & scissor sharpening. To make a long story short, he showed me his machine and sharpened all my wife's kitchen knives knives, then he proceeded to sharpen my knives, chisels, and other tools. I just knew it was going to take him most of the day. It actually only took him just over an hour. Every blade was razor sharp! It would have taken me at least a day of steady work to sharpen everything. Shortly after that, I got my machine. That was about 4 years ago. I started sharpening professionally at numerous restaurant in my area, then started sharpening at swap meet, farmer's markets, motorcycle rallies and other events. I am now the internet source for the Sharp Shop Machine. I have started to build a website to market The Sharp Shop Machine online to the world.Use this link to find out more.http://sites.google.com/site/thesharpshoponline/
Contact me if you have any questions.

[JTW Jr.]

No idea what that costs , but a 1 x 42 laying on its back will give the same results.

[hso]

I've seen the sharpshop and it appears to simply be an version of a belt sharpener.
Motor, idler, platen.

One other option I forgot to mention is Fuad Acawi's idea of taking an inexpensive palm sander and clamping it face up so that you can use it for a vibratory grinder/sharpener. Crazy simple idea that we all just stood there with our mouths open thinking, "Well, DUH! Why didn't we see that?!?". Pull the pad off of it, use sticky backed paper on the steel face and you have a handy way to grind and sharpen that's almost disposable.

Lots of ways to skin this cat, if you're sharp enough.;)

[Smokey Joe]

Hso--Lots of ways to skin this cat, if you're sharp enough.I'm beginning to get the feeling that, like may activities, there is no ONE right way to get done what I want, but many ways, each with its own advocates who swear by it and condemn other methods with more or less justification.

Question: With a belt moving at some 3k ft/min, how do you avoid the knife being sharpened jumping up (or down) and biting you severely?? Is there a video somewhere about this?

The Sharp Shop I agree is just another belt sharpener--apparently with a Lansky clamp if that's what I see on the website, in the photo, off to the right. I do like the idea of the belt moving away from the user.

I'm off this afternoon to take a look in at my local Harbor Freight, to see their belt sander, and then mebbe to Cabela's to have a look at the Chefs Choice 120. With luck it'll be on sale.

Have been perusing the Jantz Supply catalogue--what a stunning array of knife blanks and handle materials, to say nothing of the grinding/sharpening machinery!

ETA--The Sharp Shop runs $375 + S&H. Hmmmmm. OTOH, I need an excuse to go to Missouri (where it's made) anyhow. Double Hmmmm.

Bikerdoc--Certainly Wilco. As noted in my OP, I'm something of an old guy myself. When I was young and sassy, I could sharpen 4-5 sheath knives in a row, by hand, no pain. Try that now, ha, ha.

[bikerdoc]

Please post what you decide and let us know. Us old guys need all the help we can get!

[hso]

Belts and wheels are dangerous for the very reason you surmised. Knifemaker and sharpener injuries occur with the use of this equipment. That's why I like Fuad's idea so well, no force to snatch the knife out of your hand and toss it into tender pink bits.

[Aka Zero]

If a knife it pretty dull I just run it quickly across a small belt sander. Grizzly 1x32. was about $50.

Can't find any super fine belts for it. But a 120 grit, a light touch will get the flat off an edge that would take hours of honing.

Just recently put some old carbon steel kitchen knives back in commission. They were rusty, and the blade was as dull as the back side. 5-6 mins all three had a toothy bur on them that I cleaned up in thirty minutes. So 12 mins a knife, from duller than a butter knife, to making my arm bald again.

And JTW what is that second belt sander in the background. Like like a chopped and modded version of mine ( which I would like to do, but it's only 1/3 hp.)

[Smokey Joe]

Emboldened by the discussions above, and stuck in the house all day with paperwork (ugh!) 'phone calls, and other noisome details, I took a break, took an Old Hickory knife from my kitchen, one which has always been too thick to use effectively, much less sharpen nicely, down to my basement workshop, and applied it to my carpenter-type belt sander.

Had never conceived of the idea of applying a knife to a sanding machine prior to the responses in this thread. Approached with considerable trepidation, you may be sure! The sander I used was one I inherited from my grandfather--a floor-standing home-built job (most of the parts are wooden!) which has a (probably) 3x30 belt. From its design I suspect it was made in the Depression 1930's, or perhaps the War-shortage 1940's. But I really don't know. It does have a nice powerful motor.

Held the knife VERY securely, you may be sure! Sandpaper??? On a knife??? Horrors!!! Well, here goes.

Anyhow, 5 minutes or so were enough to convince me that I need to pursue this avenue further. As to the knife in question, well, let's say that my technique needs work. Made a number of shall we say errant grind-marks along the blade. However, even this crude try produced a better profile than has ever been on that knife! Removed the bur (sp?) with a coarse and then a fine DMT pocket stone, and VOILA! Vive la difference!

Now, I just gotta get a small enough machine to move around, and the really proper belts, etc, etc. Not to mention practice, practice, practice.

ETA--Aka Zero--Try Jantz Supply for yr belts. Website: http://www.jantzsupply.com

[JTW Jr.]

Check this link out , Jerry Hossom's knives are some of the sharpest I have handled. For anyone who thinks using a 1x42 or 1x30 belt sander is an insane idea , please read this , you may have to join to read , but it is worth it.
http://www.knifemakerforums.com/showthread.php?t=10&highlight=sharpen

or for any BF members:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4916570&postcount=78

Lee Valley has the 1x30 belts in up to 1200 grit , you can also get a leather belt which becomes a power strop.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48040&cat=1,43072

also check out J.Neilson:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLjFjT4vYsM

[hso]

use wood to practice and "hone" your skills

[Smokey Joe]

To all who have been so encouraging!

JTW--That Nielson video was very encouraging! I'm not so nervous about the whole thing now.

[conwict]

Very cool thread. This has been a topic of interest of mine for some time, as well as a potential solution to the frustration toward nearly *every* knife manufacturer who ships their knives out with a decent "edge" but such a high angle of grind as to be ridiculous.

[MRPAPA]

I am a knife collector. I also sale knives locally and online. I have a sharpening service at my home where I sharpen many knives throughout the year and during hunting season I average about a dozen per week. I also repair knives and buddy you should see some of these blades that people bring in to be repaired...LOL. I have been asked the question about whether or not I use a mechanical device by a few people and my answer is a huge NO.
When it comes to sharpening knives, there is no replacing the good ol` hands on application. Now when making knives, of course, the machines are needed in order to decrease the time spent to get the desired shape and angle that one needs or wants to obtain.
One thing that I have discovered about people and their knives is that everyone is a pro...LOL I say this as a joke but it is very true. Some say push, others say pull, some say forward, some say backwards. The way that I get my sharpening business is by word of mouth alone. Even with this, many of the people who bring their knives in ask to watch me do the work. They ask this out of concern for their blades. Of course I will call the customers that want to watch once I`ve done everything but the final polishing of the edge.
Many people will laugh when I explain the fact of the ability to sharpen a knife to a shaving edge with a concrete block and a piece of cardboard but it`s true as true can be. This is an application that only needs to be used as a survival technic but it works.
The best stones that I`ve found are the Japanese wetstones but the Arkansas stones are a pretty close match. Though some experts say that my process is overkill, I will tell you anyway. I use a medium grain arkansas stone for starters to obtain the angle needed for the sharpening. (NOTE) Each blade is different and the use of the blade is also important for me to know to choose my angle. Once the angle is established I use a Black Surgical Stone and a Translucent Stone to get the edge smooth as possible. The final step is the leather strap. (STRAP--Pronounced STROP) This step smooths the edge and removes any micro burs.
A few common mistakes that people make are using a steel to "sharpen" their knives. Steels are only to be used to roll the edge back up on a blade, NOT to sharpen. Another is the use of lightbulbs, poor ceramics etc. to sharpen their knives. This, to me, is HORROR on a blade. Basically, anything used that throws an edge onto a blade is bad.
Once you have a knife sharpened, all that needs to be done to keep an edge is a few swipes on the steel. I sharpen a few butchers knives about 4 times per year. This should tell you how much a knife needs to be sharpened because butchers heavily use their blades but these guys listen to me and use the steel to roll the edge back and their knives stay sharp a long time.
All in all, if you put the correct edge for the application on your knife, take your time while polishing it and keep a steel handy to roll the edge up every now and then, you can accomplish the job of sharpening. The machines are a nice addition for any knife builder but there`s no way to create the edge that the human hand can. Of course, as with anything else, to each his own. BUT...If anyone tried to put any of my Damascus blades or in fact any other of my knives in my collection on a machine to sharpen them....There would be TROUBLE!!

[JTW Jr.]

Once you have a knife sharpened, all that needs to be done to keep an edge is a few swipes on the steel.
While that may hold true for kitchen knives , utility knives or knives being used hard where a chipped edge or dinged edge may occur , do mandate using much more than a steel.

I agree with most of what you said , and agree that if you maintain your edge , with just a few strokes on a steel pr a ceramic rod , you will seldom have to actually spend anytime doing much more.

Damascus blades are no different than others , they can be sharpened the same , it is all in what you are comfortable using. I don't use stones because when you finish a knife , and you want to get it sharp from a thickness of say .017 , you better get a snickers cause you ain't going anywhere for awhile if using just a stone. In reality the amount of people that actually use damascus blades is small compared to non-damascus.

Before discounting the belt machine and paper wheels , perhaps find out how that original edge was put on there , unless all the knifemakers are doing it wrong. ;)

You should not however be using the belt machine to sharpen you knife everytime you need to touch up the edge , the belt is for reprofiling a badly damaged or blunted edged knife. Use a ceramic rod or the un-gritted paper wheel , and with just a few LIGHT touches on either , you are back in business in under 60 seconds.

[MRPAPA]

Before discounting the belt machine and paper wheels , perhaps find out how that original edge was put on there , unless all the knifemakers are doing it wrong.

If you read my post you would see that I stated the fact of the belts being used in the knife making process is well needed.

I`ll try not to argue these points much but you state that Damascus isn`t different...You couldn`t possibly be more incorrect. Most knife companies use the standard stainless steel for their blades. Who knows how the blades are forged or tempered. In fact, if you call some of these American knife makers, they will not have a clue about these attributes. The funny thing is that some of the U.S.A. knife makers that most people praise as being "the best" are actually junk.

As far the Damascus, Damascus is the absolute finest metals in the knife making and sword making industry. There are many different combinations of metals used in making the Damascus steel and even the cheapest metals such as O-1 tool steel, S-2 shock steel will beat any stainless steel or standard carbon steel blades by miles.
One of my favorites is the mixture of ATS-34 and 12C27 Sandvik steels. This Damascus billet not only will have a hardness of 58-60c and at the same time one of the most flexible steels but also is absolutely beautiful.
The top of the line, in my opinion, is the use of 1095 steel and Glorieta meteorite. You will pay dearly for this steel as it is the steel of Kings.
The best all around combination that is superior to most other mixtures is the use of 1095 & 15N20. This employs the use of nickel and is a mid-ranged steel in price.
There is a 416 stainless that is used for some applications of Damascus but this is not one of my picks.
Most of these combinations are folded between 180 and 600 times, it varies on the metal, and maker.
My favorite mass producer of Damascus knives is Boker. Boker is also one of, if not the favorite knife maker of choice.

You spoke poorly of stones. There are many different variations of grit in stones. I guarantee you that I can repair a broken machete or sling blade and polish it to a razor edge that will shave your face with my stones. This is another subject that you can research if you like. I only use stones for my swords,machetes,knives,etc. for honing. I may rarely make use of a flat file if the damage is extensive on some of the heavier guaged steel. I never use ceramics...AT ALL and I stay away from the senthetics and/or diamond stones.

Truthfully, the biggest problem that I see in people when it comes to sharpening steels is the lack of knowledge. It is a skill and it takes a few years to master the skill. In Japan, there is a title for a steel sharpener once he reaches the master level. To my knowledge, there is only one caucasion in the world that holds that title. You can find him on youtube with a little searching.

In short, these are only a few of the more common combinations used in the making of Damascus steel. No different???? I beg to differ. I have been in this business for quite some time. I`ve bumped into the statements that you have made from beginner knife collectors 2 or 3 times but if you stick with it and expand your vocabulary and education on the subject you will know most of these facts as second nature. If a person can sharpen steel he can sharpen steel. Whether it be with a concrete block and newspaper or a Japanese whetstone. But there is no getting away from the art of the process with the use of two hands. And, as I`ve stated, never ever will you ever see me placing one of my knives nor a customers knife, sword etc. on a belt sander nor any other such machined device.

[JTW Jr.]

I dont believe BOKER makes their damascus , after having long conversations in person , with actual makers of damascus , one being Chad Nichols , I have NEVER heard any damascus maker claim their damascus will out perform any other blade steel , be it s30v , ATs34 , CPM154 , etc.

Damascus is not different in the way you sharpen it is what I mean , I fully understand the way it is made , that was not my point.

Different ways to skin a cat.

I`ve bumped into the statements that you have made from beginner knife collectors 2 or 3 times but if you stick with it and expand your vocabulary and education on the subject you will know most of these facts as second nature

I have bumped into the bogus claims you have made regarding damascus being superior many times as well , usually they come from collectors who drop the coin to buy those knives ( though seldom use them ) , speaking with the makers of the knives and the makers of the damascus itself , you will find a more realistic out look , it is not better , should be equal , but no better , no worse than non-damascus steel.
I have 2 24" bars of Devon Thomas Damascus in the shop , raindrop and also ladder pattern , I have never heard him make the claims you make , nor have I heard Mike Norris or any others.

Gonna have to agree to disagree on this one , I have had long discussions with makers and collectors alike over the past 12 years in this hobby ( the last 5 making knives ) , and you ask 20 people , you will get 22 opinions ;)

[MRPAPA]

I see that there`s no point or understanding for you here so I`ll leave this one alone. If you think that there is no difference in the performance of Damascus VS. standard steels, go ahead and take it to your grave. I guess my 20+ years in the business counts for zip...LOLOL
LOL Boker makes some of the better mass production knives pal. there`s no single guy sitting in a room hammering out each of their knives. I see you looked up one of the Damascus guys. Keep searching and you`ll find that a huge majority of the knives are hand crafted in Lebanon, Japan, China, etc.etc. by regular Joes. Some of the best Damascus knives have no name on the knives anywhere to be found. I personally steer clear of several of the name brand knives. There`s only about a half dozen Damascus knife and sword makers that are actually the ones who build their knives. Look that up and see if you can find out who they are.
there is also a different approach to sharpening Damascus. There is a great deal of difference actually. For one thing, you can not make a mistake by scratching the blade of a $500-$2500 knife. Nor can you make a mistake by cross-thatching the edge. Also the layers are a big factor so the edge you make must be perfectly even so that you don`t compromise the design. etc.etc.etc.etc.
So again, you are off course.
I have no problems admitting a mistake. But, I will not bow to a person who has only argued mute non-existant points.
If you want to meet some of the guys who make the best blades on the planet just come on over to TN. We`re here at the knife show close to Smokey Mountain Knife Works. We`re at the very front on the largest table in the joint. Oh and no, I do not make knives, I sharpen knives and sale them. My friends make them and I`m here because they can`t speak english very well.
Have a nice day and Merry Christmas
I`m done here. Go ahead and spit fire. I just hope that the people here don`t place any stock in the things that you`ve stated. I`m sure that if they read my long winded posts they will be able to tell the difference between the rabbit and the bear.

[JTW Jr.]

Not going to argue with someone who won't even use their own name , come on over to CKG and we can discuss it more with some of the people at the top of the knife making field.

No fire spitting , just discussion.

If you make it to Blade , Blade West , Vegas Invitational , or SHOT Show , drop me an email and we can talk over a cup of coffee ( or whatever beverage you choose , first one is on me ).

If you do make it to SHOT , do drop me and email as there is a gathering of knife folks ( many names you will know , place is still being determined ) and I welcome you to join us. I promise it is worth it for the conversations ( and humor ).

I see you looked up one of the Damascus guys. I didn't look up anyone , these are people I have met at shows , had emails with and talked on the phone with. It was not just a google search.

[Art Eatman]

The last half-dozen or so posts have little to do with Smokey Joe's topic.