[Sean Smith]

First, I would please ask that folks don't troll in this thread and say nonsense like "just get a glocksighkberetta" or whatever. Thank you.

Conversely, I'd also ask that slavish "JMB was God!" posts not be bothered with, either. That may be true, but rah-rah cheerleading isn't the point of this topic, either.

----------

The topic on Sig's new 1911 got me thinking... what do 1911 fans think would be REAL improvements to the design? Stuff that would go beyond pseudo-tactical nonsense or gun rag cover fashion statements?

- A linkless, bushingless barrel would simplify the design and remove some (admittedly obscure) falure modes. Instead of a bushing, barrel, link & pin, you'd have... the barrel. You'd want to devise a simple take-down method though, unlike what cone/bull barrels in 1911s use now. Something like a BHP, maybe?

- Stay-put plunger tube.

- Likewise, you could dispense with the grip screw bushings as separate parts and simply thread the frame for the screws.

- No grip safety. The thing is silly, and can fail (though admittedly it is unusual for it to do so if installed properly).

- A true polymer single-stack frame would have merits... flat and concealable like a steel single-stack, but lighter and more durable than aluminum. Or, a scandium-aluminum alloy frame like S&W uses for their lightweight magnum revolvers to get more longevity out of those alloy 1911s.

- RELIABLE ambi mag releases and slide stops would be handy for left-handed people. Not something people think much about, but might be do-able.

Any other ideas?

[Andrew Wyatt]

Of that list, pretty much the only one that i think would be a real improvement is the plunger being replaced with a machined part of the frame. I use the grip safety, i find the slide release to be MORE convenient for left handers (though an ambi one would be good for righties) removing the link makes it hard to tighten up the lockup, and the bushing is nice because you can replace the bushing if the gun stops shooting very well with a hope of maybe fixing it.

I'd like to see a 1911 frame scaled down for 9mm/40. that would be quite nifty.

[SnWnMe]

Number one on my list is a good quality trigger. IMO that's where the allure of the 1911 lies. Something with very, very little takeup, no creep, clean breaking @ 3.5 to 4#.

[El Tejon]

Sean, really like that stay put plunger tube idea. The third 1911 I wore out had this happen several times. It was a Colt though.

I have a few suggestions. First, shrink the stock. No reason for it to be that thick today. Second, as the 1911 likes it wet, find a way to use geez-whiz high tech metal that it impregnated with lube somehow. Third, make the sights part of the slide.

[Marko Kloos]

In my opinion, the biggest weaknesses of the 1911 design are the staked-on plunger tube and the swing link. The link arrangement would be easy to replace with a Peters Stahl/USP-type linkless setup.

The merits of the bushing are debatable, but at least you *can* hand-fit a tight bushing to a 1911, and relace it when it wears out.

[Sean Smith]

removing the link makes it hard to tighten up the lockup

Huh? Make either part to the proper dimensions and the result would be the same. It isn't like Sig has problems making their P210 accurate, and it is a linkless & bushingless design.

and the bushing is nice because you can replace the bushing if the gun stops shooting very well with a hope of maybe fixing it.

Well, the premise here is that we make the gun right in the first place, not deliver it crappy & need to replace the bushing. :)

I was just throwing out ideas, though, I'm not claiming that they'd work spectacularly in real life. Like I said, coming up with real improvements is tough.

[BigG]

I think a tasteful dehorn and putting a dovetail front sight on a forged and machined pistol would improve it a lot. I agree the butt size (circumference) could be shrunk. No need to be as big as it is.

[sm]

Stay put plunger

[Sean Smith]

So what purpose do the grip screw bushings serve? Why not just thread the frame directly, and then you can use any thickness grips you want by just supplying different length screws?

I tend to like the idea of reducing the part count myself, unless there is a pressing reason to keep an "extra" part.

[Brian Williams]

I'd like to see a 1911 frame scaled down for 9mm/40. that would be quite nifty.

Doesn't STi have a scaled down in the lLS40 and LS9
http://www.stiguns.com/guns/ls/ls.html
http://www.stiguns.com/images/ls.jpg
http://www.stiguns.com/guns/ls/images/lsleftf.jpg
LS

What else can be said? These are the slimmest full power handguns on the market today. Only .765" across steel and 1.065" across wood. All 1911 controls including full size grip safety.

Aided by and undercut trigger guard and front strap STIppling, these firearms transfer most of the recoil to the heel of your hand so you get very little muzzle rise when you can least afford it.

Incorporated in this unique, self defense firearm, are STI's Patented trigger assembly and all the 1911 style trigger group parts. (except the mainspring and mainspring housing on the LS)

The LS9 and LS40 sport a 3.4" barrel and abbreviated grip for easy carry and concealment at less than 28 ounces.

Due to the number of guns currently on order and our continuing commitment to deliver in the time frames promised, we are suspending the acceptance of any orders for this model until further notice. Please bear with us while we play "catch up". Thank You



Utilizes new, ST designed, linkless barrel lockup system.

All lower and trigger group parts except the mainspring
housing and mainspring are “1911” compatible

Caliber 9 m.m. and .40S&W
Frame Officers Size grip, Steel, STIppled front strap
Grip Panels Rosewood Thin panels
Slide Features STI Bullet Style Front and Rear Serrations
Trigger STI long curved
Barrel 3.4” STI fully supported, ramped bull barrel
w/ linkless lock up
Safeties Blue STI Grip and Single sided thumb
Guide Rod STI RecoilMaster
Sights Slide integral front w/ Heinie Low mount rear
Overall Length 7.0”
Width .765” across steel, 1.06” across grips
Weight 28.0oz
Finish Flat Blue
Competition Approvals IPSC, USPSA, IDPA

[sm]

Grip screws?
Sean, I dunno, I honestly don't know why that design was used, never had a problem with it, be curious if someone does know. Your suggestion has merit. Parts- "less is more"- makes sense.

I like the original design, I've never had a problem with it. I like the fact the design allows itself to be a tool unto itself. Just always figured the plunger the weak link, though none of mine have failed,come un-staked.

My problems center around not enough of them, ( 1911 guns) money to buy, or running out of ammo...

Good thread BTW
Thanks

[Lone_Gunman]

Sean, I have a suggestion, but its not a thread hijacking... and I dont mean this as "why not just get a glock"...

Instead of making a 1911 more modern, I think it would be easier to take a more modern gun and make it more 1911ish.

Take a Glock 36, add a frame mounted safety, and make the trigger crisper.

What 1911 fans really want is a frame mounted safety,a clean single action trigger, and a thin profile gun. If you make the about changes the the G36, you would have that.

I know I would buy one.

[Tamara]

Okay, first of all, I think that the plunger tube/front sight/feeding ammo with weird profiles issues can all be taken care of best with a trip to a good 'smith, if they weren't taken care of at the factory.

When a 1911 falls into my paws (as has been known to happen on occasion ;) ) I make sure it has six things:

1) Coarse, fast-to-acquire three-dot sights.
2) A long trigger.
3) A flat, checkered mainspring housing.
4) A thumb safety long enough to park my thumb on while shooting. If it's ambi, I won't complain.
5) A beavertail grip safety that disengages positively while still funnelling my hand into my preferred high-thumbs grip.
6) No ghey full-length guide rod if the gun doesn't say "10mm Auto" on it.

...but that's just me. ;)

[jacketch]

10mm

[Delmar]

I have often wished for a machined slide stop tube, although it would have to be much thicker to help prevent denting. Either that, or make the top of the grip hold the the spring.

I would like a mag release similiar to the Ruger P series as I can release the mag with my shooting hand without shifting grip.

I like the removable bushing, as a couple of mine are high mileage (over 75K) and its a simple matter to change out the bushing-a lot cheaper and easier than drilling out and then rebushing a hole in the slide.

Dual dovetail sights.

Possibly a cam lock instead of a swinging link, although I don't think the 45ACP really needs it.

Something like a 10MM I think could use a fully supported chamber for the hottest loads, so why not standardize them?

[George Hill]

Real 1911 improvements:
High ride beavertail grip safety is a real improvement, as is the widened and lowered ejection port.... I think those are the only REAL improvements to the 1911. Other things are just personal touches.

[Kestrel]

Perfessr,

Do you have one of those little STIs? Are they reliable? Hmmm... looks interesting... What kind of mags do they use?

Tamara,

Why a full-length guide rod in a 10mm? Is it just for added weight up front?

Thanks,
Steve

[Shmackey]

I like the grip safety, and I like the way you can make the bushing tight for a bullseye gun or looser for... not a bullseye gun.

Trying as hard as I can, I really can't think of a darn thing to change, except one important detail: make the damn extractors out of spring steel.

Otherwise, it's the design that's got it all. It even has interchangeable "backstraps" like that cute plastic Walther.

[Siggyboy]

I can't rack my brain anymore tonight on possible improvements to the 1911...

I do wonder why there haven't been more designs like the Peters Stahl or the Alchemy Arms Spectre though, that use a linkless Glock/Sig type locking breech.

As for the grip screw bushings, if they were not removable it might be much more difficult to refinish and/or polish that area of the frame.

Unless you really change the design, I think the Springfield TRP Pro is close to perfection. :D

[Jim K]

OK, I'll stick my neck out and offer the following:

1. Go to an external extractor; there never was a really good reason for the internal extractor (the Army wanted it to allow for too short cartridge cases).

2. Go to the linkless barrel. An easy change and they are already on the market. The best would be a closed cam system like the Petter pistols rather than an open cam like the BHP.

3. Better, though more of a change, go to a rotating barrel a la Obregon.

4. Eliminate the grip safety. (I doubt that this could be done today, when lawmakers bowing to the antis are demanding more safeties, not less, and if you have to have a firing pin lock the grip safety is the best way to operate it.)

5. Redesign the safety to cam back and lock the hammer, not the sear (same as Ballester-Molina and other pistols).

6. Redesign the slide stop for a postive downward spring action. The current spring and plunger serve to keep the stop in position, but the slide has to be drawn back some distance to release the stop.

7. Use a pinned trigger (again B-M and other pistols), eliminating the loose trigger and its bouncing on the sear that can drop the hammer.

8. Consider eliminating the barrel bushing except for target pistols, and the recoil spring plug as well (like the BHP).

Now some other comments:

Keep the grip screw bushings; holes in the frame will not permit enough threads to allow for wear and the bushings can be replaced, where frame holes are ruined if stripped.

Don't sweat the plunger tube. Properly staked, it will stay put forever, and the current setup is cheaper and does allow replacement. The fact that some makers can't get it right doesn't mean it is a bad design. Still, see the above change ideas which could result in a different system.

Jim

[1911Tuner]

Andrew said:

removing the link makes it hard to tighten up the lockup

A common misconception is that tightening the vertical lockup
by using a longer link is a viable accuracy tweak. The vertical
lock should be obtained with the lower lug. The link isn't supposed
to bear any of the load, and in fact, should be loose when the
pistol is in battery. Its job is to unlock the barrel from the slide,
period. It also does a fair job of guiding the barrel up and down
and prevent a lot of sideways motion, but that's about it.

Using a long link will not only not enhance accuracy, but it can
actually make it worse. It can also cause the link's pinhole in the
lug to egg-shape, and affect linkdown timing because of the sloppy
action that results.

More than that, it throws the impact load to the tips of the lower
lug feet, which can cause them to deform to the rear, and delay
linkdown timing even more than the egg-shaped pin hole.

If a pistol has loose vertical lock, there are two ways to improve it.
Get a hard-fit barrel that has enough meat on the lower lug to
hand-fit it so that the slidestop pin bears upward on it hard enough
to lock it into the slide tightly, or weld up the lower lug on the bottom and
refit it to achieve the same thing. Using a too-long link is a losing proposition. It won't help a thing, and it will likely cause expensive
damage, depending on how MUCH too long it is, and how long it's
allowed to bear the load.

Improvements?

Proper slide-to-frame fit. May require welding/refitting. Proper
barrel fit. Proper bushing fit...both to the slide and the barrel.
Make sure that both hammer hooks are bearing evenly on the sear.
A good extractor that is tensioned properly. Good, low-mount sights,
preferably fixed. A grip safety that doesn't blister the web of the hand.
Most hammer bite isn't the hammer at all. it's the safety tang.

'Bout all I can think of this early...
Tuner

[MaterDei]

A selector switch would be nice. Safe, Semi, and hold on tight we're going for a ride.:cool:

[45auto]

Some possible improvements as a consumer based only on what I have experienced and seen. Not new ideas either!!

It has to be a given this is produced by a healthy, quality company.

Cast frame with intergral plunger tube and bushings. That eliminates 5 parts that have caused either trouble, money or a trip to a gunsmith.
I say cast because of cost and I don't think too many people believe forged is really stronger than forged or barstock anymore, in a frame anyway where plastic also works.

No grip safety, series 80 firing pin safety. It can be installed and removed the traditional way, just not functional. The manufacturer could have several "grips" to satisfy the high grip longer beavertail and those who prefer a short "nub" so to speak. Unless you are twirling the gun like a cowboy, grabbing it by the slide with your finger on the trigger, I don't see how the grip safety prevents any AD's in it's current confiqurations. If someone sees a realistic situation where it would help...I'm all ears and I could be wrong about it.

The slide lock is known to break on occasion. If a linkless bbls prevents that, I think it's a good idea. That's a question actually? If they are easier to fit too, then even better. I like the bushing idea, cheap way to improve accuracy and refresh a bbl.

How about having the recoil plug somehow attached to the spring so it doesn't fly off and hit you in the head or enter the 4th dimension. I'll find that one in my basement some day. :) I don't mean a permanent attachment, but something where the redesigned spring engages a lip, nub, etc on the inside of the plug so it doesn't take off. Twist on and off so to speak.

IMO, an "Aftec" type extractor seems the best of both worlds, except for cost. Removable and spring activated. Personally, internals work fine for me but from what I read, I guess it's difficult for manufacturers. Not sure though, being the "internet" and all. I have seen hooks snap off but I don't know how many rounds they had on them.

Other than that dreaming, a high quality company would offer "drop in" parts that actually work, the best mags for their gun so I don't have to try different ones, etc. There's more that they could do, but it should be their mission that consumers order from them first, after market second.

[Shmackey]

5. Redesign the safety to cam back and lock the hammer, not the sear

Good idea.

[1911Tuner]

.45 Auto...I don't know where to start.

Integral plunger tube and bushings...What happens if the tube is
damaged? Trash the frame? Bushings strip out, and there is only so far
that you can go in reaming/rethreading. Better to install them with
a left-hand thread so they will get tighter as the screw is loosened.
Properly staked, and installing the screw without trying to twist it
in half would work.

The grip safety is a redundant safety to back up the thumb safety
that might get wiped off in a Con-1 carry. If the trigger is engaged, the
grip safety holds the trigger off the sear. I had a thumb safety disengage
just two weeks ago on my Commander without me knowing it until
I cleared the pistol for the night. The Series 80 system was also
operational on the gun...Some piss and moan about the Series 80
system, but I like it for carry in an open-topped rig. All others are
carried with a safety strap between hammer and slide. Why? I
saw a sear break once. Not pretty. A redesigned thumb safety
that would block the hammer IS a good idea. Kudos.

Slidestop lugs do break on occasion, but it's not the link that does it.
Most likely shoddy materials and plain old age on a good one. If the
pin breaks, there are other problems at work. Linkless barrels aren't easier
to fit and time than a linked barrel. They're just faster because they
eliminate a work station where the link is installed and checked for
function. The linkless system works exactly the same way as a falling
link, but without the potential for problems associated with a
moving part. One less thing...

Recoil spring attached to the plug? Go have a look at a GI plug. See
the little cut near the end? That's what was designed into the pistol
nearly 90 years ago for just that reason. Slip the plug over the spring and
give it a short twist. Plug fastened to the spring. Again, the problem
is present day manufacturers cutting corners and getting away from the
original design.

AFTEC extractors? Too busy for easy service afield. Lose one of those
little springs and you're cooked. Perfectly functional for toys and
gamesmen who only stand to lose a match stage if the gun won't
work due to a lost extractor spring. Those little springs also get weak
and produce failures to extract too...and usually don't give a warning
that anything is wrong. That's why whenever I'm the "Armorer on Duty"
at the local IPSC/IDPA matches, I keep a few standard extractors in my
kit.

Drop-in Parts that really work? Your Colt Government Model or
Mil-Spec Springfield was built in just that way..as were all USGI
pistols at the outset of WW2. They're assembled on a line from
select-fit, drop-in parts by semi-skilled labor. Why? Speed of
production. Those weapons were needed quickly, and it was determined
by designers that key areas of the gun could function with looser
tolerances, and without any need for hand-fitting. It stands today,
and the reason is profit rather than war.

Aftermarket drop-in parts are generally made to maximum drop-in specs to allow for light fitting in most pistols. A large percentage WILL drop in and
work in a good number of guns...just not all of them.

Magazines? Stick with 7-round mags with a hard follower and a dimple
on top in the proper location. Keep the springs fresh, and Wolff 11-pound
springs will cure a multitude of problems. Most magazine related problems
are either due to an underpowered spring or a follower that is set to the
wrong angle...Followers without dimples are more dependent on strong
magazine springs than ones with dimples. Ordnance-spec springs are
11-pound springs too. Find a new GI-spec magazine and test the
spring if you doubt it. Again, short-cuts and shoddy materials are the
main problem with new 1911s today.

A wise man said"

"8-round single-stack magazines in a 1911(.45) are like a .243
for big game hunting. Sooner or later, it will do less than you
need for it to do when you least expect it."

I'm inclined to agree.

Cheers!
Tuner

[45auto]

Tuner,

You should be glad I don't design 1911's for a living. :D

I can only make counter impressions, not points because my knowledge is based only in what I experience or see/ read etc and don't have a great working understanding of various gun types, i.e. what's really better, etc.

I haven't seen or read about people replacing plunger tubes because they were damaged, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I have seen them work loose and become damaged. But, you must mean from dropping the gun, etc?
A lot of the double stacks(some single), variations have an intergral tube like Para, STI, SVI, Wilson KZ(?) and other plastic framed 1911's so I assumed it must be okay- maybe not!

I assumed, incorrectly perhaps, that the linkless bbl design didn't ride on the slidestop, consequently reducing stress due to poor bbl fitting or just age. I have experienced, know people and have read of breaking slidestops and links. Then again, every gun design seems to have their certain parts that break more often than others.

They should bring back that GI recoil plug. They will have one customer for sure. ;)

Extractors, I like internals so no issue with me. It seems to be with other people; regardless I believe in a fairly short amount of years, if you want an internal, you choice of 1911's will become less and less.

I'll take your word on the drop in parts and magazines. I shouldn't have to add extra power springs to magazines. If they work the best, that's what the manufacturer should use. Little cost to them and I won't bad mouth their gun. ;)

The grip safety I don't agree with. :eek: It is redundant but even if your thumb safety is off, you would still have to pull the trigger to fire. Again, I am trying to think of realistic circumstances where the trigger is pulled, while you are not holding the gun by the grip?? Perhaps, the thumb safety is off, person carries the 1911 without the trigger being protected, something pushes the trigger, etc. But, I'm reaching on this.
Assuming a series 80 system here.
Worse, for this redundancy that may have no real practical use to prevent an AD, many people are unable to fire the gun because of their grip. That's very common, from what I see, even more so when being active, drawing with less than a good grip, etc. And this is on "tuned" grip safeties.


Side note: In SVI's catalog, they list a thumb safety with an extra "pad" to block the hammer in addition to the sear. I don't know if that's what people are looking for, but it sounds good.

[1911Tuner]

You should be glad I don't design 1911's for a living.

I disagree! You had some good ideas, some of which were shared by John Browning.

On the grip safety...It may not be as useless as it seems at first glance. Somewhere on one of these forums there is a thread written by a guy who fell asleep in a recliner with his pistol on him. Sometime in the night, the safety got wiped off, and as he squirmed out of the chair, something pulled the trigger and fired the gun. He got a nasty burn on his backside and one leg, but nothing very serious. If I remember right, he had pinned the grip safety, and it wasn't able to block the trigger.

The plunger tubes won't come off easily if they are staked on properly... more modern, profit-based shortcuts...Front sight staking too. There's a right way and several other ways to do it. If you don't have the tool to stake one in, here's my method of doing it that hasn't failed to keep one in place yet. Get a new tube, and use a punch to lightly stake it in after you rough up the area where the tube lays as well as the backside of the tube itself. Degrease it well with brake cleaner and let dry for 5 minutes. Apply a dab of J&B Weld to the tube's legs and a light smear on the backside. Install the tube and wipe off any excess, and be especally careful to get it all off inside the frame. Clamp it lightly in a bench vise and leave it for 24 hours. Now...use the punch to lightly stake the insides of the legs at a steep enough angle that you don't knock the tube back off. I started this when I lost my staking tool, and didn't want to spend the money for another one. It works.

Now for the spring plug. You can look around at the gun shows and find one from time to time...and the price isn't bad. You may have to touch up the bluing, but they do work. Since I'm a toolmaker by trade, a fixture to
let a man make that cut in the plug wouldn't be hard to make. If I get off my lazy backside and make one, I'll be happy to fix up your plug and send it...No charge. Once the tooling is made, it would take maybe 30 seconds to modify one.

The linkless barrel AND the falling link design ride the slidestop into battery. That's the way it should work. When the barrel rides the link and is held in vertical lock BY the link is when things go wrong. The link's function is to unlock the barrel...not pivot it upward and lock it into the
slide. Most production guns' barrels do ride the link and stop just shy of
vertical lock, but they shouldn't. Many people who don't understand that will install a long link to lock it all up tighter, but in doing so, they've created the blueprint for damage to the barrel, link, link pin, and slide. When the link swings through its maximum arc, the bottom part of the hole unlocks the barrel. The front portion of the lower lug in a linkless design does exactly the same thing...it just doesn't move.

When all is right within the gun, the link comes under stress for a small fraction of a second when the barrel is at the end of its straight travel, and the link is swung through its arc and stops the straight-line barrel movement...and redirects it downward into unlock. After that, the link's job is over.

I completely agree that you shouldn't have to immediately replace the
magazine springs upon delivery. If the manufacturers stuck to the original design specs, it wouldn't necessary. Bean counters again. Really good springs are a bit more expensive to make than mediocre springs...maybe 25 cents more. Bean counters will stay awake nights to figure out how to save a penny per part...They win. If we could just convince them that we would gladly pay the difference per magazine to get GOOD magazines...but they don't seem to have that sort of logic in their makeup. It's all money. So we shell out 4 bucks to Wolff for good springs. It may be a conspiracy...Who knows? Wish I had a dime for each time that I've "fixed" a jam-o-matic with a Wolff magazine spring. Sometimes I don't tell the guy what I did and let him believe that I'm some kinda pistol genius. 5 bucks for parts and labor is a fair trade for performing black magic on his problem child and letting him draw his own conclusions...;)

When I get that plug tool worked out, I'll let ya know.

Keep yer powder dry!

Tuner

[45auto]

Tuner,
Thanks for the offer, advice and education. By the way, my plunger tube has been loose for about 20,000 rounds now. The grips hold it tight enough...apparently. JMB saw that one coming I'm sure.

[Henry Bowman]

Watch for the new version of the Spectre from Alchemy Arms. It is a 1911 frame mated with a single action striker (no hammer). Linear trigger pull mated to a linear striker with a simple, sure, and safe linkage in between. It's been a long time coming, but is in production and should be out there soon. Web site (http://www.alchemyltd.com) is primative at this time.

[1911Tuner]

The grips hold it tight enough...apparently. JMB saw that one coming I'm sure.

Right again. That's why the top of left side of the grip snugs up
to it. Seems to me you might oughta go into designing. Studying
a machine and determining the designer's intent is a knack that
only a few have. A logical thought process is a gift. Use it!

[1911Tuner]

Watch for the new version of the Spectre from Alchemy Arms. It is a 1911 frame mated with a single action striker (no hammer). Linear trigger pull mated to a linear striker with a simple, sure, and safe linkage in between.

Now...THAT will be interesting! First thing I'd hafta do is break it down and
see how it works...Sorry. It's like a disease that I've had all my life.:D

Standin' by...
Tuner

[Andrew Wyatt]

Perfessor: those pistols are basically officers models in 9 and 40. What i want is a pistol with a shorter front to back dimension through the grip. those use the .45 frames.

[Kestrel]

Tuner,

Can you describe what hard-fitting a barrel entails? I've never read an adequate description of this.

Thanks,
Steve

[1911Tuner]

Sure Steve.

Gunsmith fit barrels come with all critical dimensions oversized to allow the
builder to fit the barrel to any reasonable frame and slide combo. There
are different levels of finish, or there used to be, depending on how
much fitting was desired or needed.

The bottom lug is fitted to cam upward on the slidestop pin to prevent
vertical play at the back, and still allow reliable return to battery. The
front of the lug is shaped to let the barrel unlock at the right time, which
is done by the link. Properly fit, the barrel should cam up on the pin to
a tight fit, and the lower lug should keep it locked until the barrel moves rearward about .100 inch. At that point, the forward radius of the lug
begins to fall off the pin, and the link starts unlocking thae barrel. Full
match fit keeps the barrel up a little longer...maybe .025 inch.

The barrel feet, too, should be fitted to just touch in their frame
abutment when the barrel is in bed...or laying in the saddle. Some
say that the bottom of the barrel shouldn't actually rest on the saddle, but have a thousandth of an inch clearance, being supported by the feet
in the frame, but I don't think it hurts anything to let it touch.

The lower lug's location in relation to the frame's impact surface is also
important, but too long to include here. I'll post a link about it if
anybody wants to see it. Simply put, if it's too far rearward, or the impact surface is too far forward, the locking lugs can be damaged. If too far
forward, or the impact surface is too far rearward, the link will be stretched, and can break, causing catastrophic damage to barrel and
slide.

The link must not support the barrel in lockup, and actually shouldn't
be so long as to let the barrel "ride" it as the forward radius cams over the
pin on the way to battery. Most production pistols do allow the barrel to
ride the link at that point, but ideally, the pin should lightly contact the
lug for the whole trip, getting tighter as the barrel approaches battery.
Note that the link does not hang dead vertical when the gun is in battery,
but overcenters about one-half degree. The supporting area on the
bottom of the lug isn't flat, but set at a slight angle to tighten the
barrel lug against the pin as it goes to battery.

The barrel hood is wider than spec to allow fitting into its area at the
back of the slide. This prevents barrel rotation from torque as the bullet takes the rifling...or holds it to a minimum. Everybody has his own idea
of how much clearance is allowable between the sides of the hood and the
slide. Some like it as tight as possible, some like about .002 per side.
I can live with more because I like plenty of room for dirt to go and not
tie up the gun.

The hood is also too long on some hard-fit barrels to allow the builder to
fit it precisely. This length is set from the rear of the hood to the locking
lugs, and these barrels usually require finish reaming to set headspace
after the fitting is done. These are true, hard-fit barrels that have a
lower lug that is semi-finished...much the same way that the old armorers
used to gt a tight fit by welding it up and recutting it. That method
makes the old builders appreciate the newer generation of fit-required barrels. MUCH less work.

The locking lugs too, are taller than spec on some barrels, and let the builder set the downward angle of the barrel axis correctly as he fits the
bottom lug. All this is to allow for worn or out-of spec slides and frames,
and is usually unnecessary when fitting a barrel to a new, quality slide/frame set.

Kart E-Z Fit barrels are semi hard fit, and have raised pads of metal between the locking lugs to let you remove a little at a time until
the barrel will cam up into battery.


The bushing is fit to allow minimal movement of the muzzle with the barrel in battery, and is fitted to be as tight in the slide as is reasonable and still allow removal. Some like it just beyond finger tight...some like to set them
tight enough to require a wrench to turn them. I like the former.

The bushing must be properly relieved to prevent the barrel from
springing up when pushed into the locking lug recesses in the slide.
The fit should be tight enough to hold movement to almost nil, and the
barrel shouldn't spring back up when pressed into the slide. Again,
technology and innovation makes it easier. EGW's angle-bored bushings
work, and if you let them know what your slide ID and Barrel OD is,
they'll make one that will fit and function almos perfectly, with just a little
lapping to the slide generally being all that's necessary.

If I think fo any more detail, I'll post again. Time to let the dogs out and make coffee!

Tuner

[BevrFevr]

I would make a 1911 more like a cz75.

reverse the frame and slide rails, linkless barrel etc, toss the grip safety, toss the bushing, etc.

Actually It would be easier to take the features I like on a 1911 and put them on a CZ. I love 1911 thumbsafeties. Scrap the DA trigger and use an nice sweet smooth 1911 trigger. Add a steel guide rod.

Actually the perfect .45 for me would be if a 1911 romanced a cz97 and they had a single stack baby it would be perfect.

Sorry for going out of bounds.

-bevr

[dsk]

The more you try to "product improve" the 1911, the more wailing and gnashing of teeth you'll hear from purists. In my opinion improving the 1911 reached its peak once makers began putting on useable sights and throated the feed ramp. All the other stuff is nice to have, but by no means necessary. The ability to go bang and to shoot where you aim it is all that matters.

The reason why Kimbers have sold so well is because their guns have all the desired features, with only a couple of useless extra ones. If only they could keep the QC up there wouldn't still be a market for a "better" 1911. I believe the whole reason why the SIG 1911 has generated so much excitement is because they are the first "new" 1911 manufacturer with a long history of impeccable quality control.

[1911Tuner]

Dana, I couldn't agree more. The farther from original design that we get, the more we realize that the changes are not only mostly unnecessary, but
they often cause a whole new set of problems. So many people
have been trying to outsmart ol' John Moses for so many years, they
really think that they have.

Cheers!
Tuner

[mattjoe]

improvements?
I am just about done making all the improvements I could possibly want.
Began life as p14 limited.
Only thing I want to do now is replace the front sight with a fiberoptic, since the gunsmith forgot I was having one shipped to him, and he didn't install it. Now i've got a different size cut and can't just throw myfiber optic on there. Oh, and the front strap checkered, eventually i'll get bored with the grip tape, but it works fine.

Schuemann Bull Barrel Hybrid II with Accuracy Enchancing Technology, no barrel bushing of course, full length guide rod, Caspian slide, and para's have the grip screws directly into the frame as is, so no worry about bushings. Trigger all worked up, and grip safety pinned.


left side with it open, so you can see how the slide has been cut out to accomodate the barrel:
http://www.freepichosting.com/Images/103298/0.jpg?x=990
right side

http://www.freepichosting.com/Images/103298/1.jpg?x=975

[CWL]

I think the greatest improvement was already made when better sights were put on.

I kinda like external extractors, but I've never had any real extractor problems which couldn't be self-tensioned by me on my 3 m1911s.

Removal of grip safety? Might make sense.

[RON in PA]

Suprised that nobody has stated the obvious, the perfected 1911 exists, only it's not a .45, only a little 9x19 and its called a Hi-Power. Imagine a HP sized for the 45 ACP.

[Sean Smith]

Aside from the apalling trigger, short-bus magazine safety design, undersized thumb safeties, hammer bite, and so forth, yeah, the BHP is "perfected," all right. :D

Size the BHP design for .45 and you would probably ruin its virtues of ergonomics, pointability, ballance, and lack of bulk.

[Kestrel]

Dana - I agree. Sights and throating are really all a good 1911 needs. Everything else is just icing on the cake.

Tuner,
Thanks for the detailed info. I had been thinking about trying to learn how to fit a barrel myself, but after reading your notes, it seems like it's not for mortal man... Kinda discouraging.

Something I don't understand is, hwo some gunsmiths say they "hard-fit" barrels and most of the other gunsmiths don't mention anything about hard-fitting. How else are these other smiths fitting them? It seems like if the barrel requires certain parameters to fit right, it would have to be done. What am I missing?

I would really love to learn from someone how to build a complete 1911, including fitting the barrels correctly.

Thanks again for all your help,
Steve

[1911Tuner]

Steve say:

Tuner,
Thanks for the detailed info. I had been thinking about trying to learn how to fit a barrel myself, but after reading your notes, it seems like it's not for mortal man... Kinda discouraging.

Don't be. It sounds more complicated than it really is. Get Kuhnhausen's
first shop manual and study the procedure. Then get a Kart-E-Z Fit
barrel and go slow. That exercise will teach you a lot. It's 10%
knowledge, 90% patience and common sense. The Kart won't
require finish reaming unless something on your pistol is seriously
out of spec, and ditto for the bottom lug. The hood is slightly long to
allow final fitting, and the bushing is already fitted to the barrel, and
all that's required is fit to the slide, and you can usually do that with some
lapping compound and a bushing wrench. Those Kart barrels are a
boon to the hobbyist who wants a near hard-fit, but can't justify the
expense of the equipment necessary for one or two pistols....AND...
they come with instructions. I've seen carefully worked E-Z Fits give
some amazing results.

Luck to ya!

Tuner

[BigG]

Suprised that nobody has stated the obvious, the perfected 1911 exists,

Ron, this exact sentiment has been expressed on every "improve the JMB 45 Auto" thread I have seen on TFL or THR, at least 5 or six. And it has been debunked on each thread also. Suffice it to say that JMB designed the HP for FN for a french contract competition which he lost. He could not infringe his own patents that he had previously assigned to Colt. By the time the GP made it into production, JMB was long dead and the pistol little resembled his striker fired hand built models.