Woman armed with shotgun blasts 'crazed' home intruder


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Desertdog
December 8, 2009, 07:45 PM
A complete illlustration where the firearm is a better protecter than 911.

Woman armed with shotgun blasts 'crazed' home intruder
'I don't want to have to kill this man, but I'll kill him graveyard dead'

Posted: December 08, 2009
2:07 pm Eastern


By Chelsea Schilling
2009 WorldNetDaily


A 56-year-old woman prayed to God while a "crazed" man tried to break in to her home, telling a 9-1-1 dispatcher, "I don't want to have to kill this man, but I'll kill him graveyard dead" and within minutes, she blasted the relentless intruder in the chest with her shotgun.

Cushing, Okla., resident Donna Jackson shot and killed Billy Dean Riley, 53, a man with a long history of alcohol and drug convictions, after the belligerent man hurled a patio table through her glass patio door on Dec. 4. ...


Story and 911 call at;

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=118339

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shotgunsrfun
December 8, 2009, 07:47 PM
Good thing she was armed, should could have died

RevolvingGarbage
December 8, 2009, 08:05 PM
Hey i think this is already posted over in S&T
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=490633

wishin
December 8, 2009, 08:08 PM
Wow. Good for her. I hope and pray my wife has that kind of resolve amd presence of mind under similar circumstances.

Kimber45acp
December 9, 2009, 01:56 AM
I listened to the entire 911 call. This lady was a basketcase and NOT gun owner (despite the fact that she was holding a shotgun). She was in a panic the entire call and was holding a weapon that

A. she was not comfortable with
B. was afraid of
C. was admittedly too big for her

Other mistakes that tell me she is no gun owner and needs serious education:

1. She talks and talks with the dispatcher instead of paying attention to the threat
2. At several points in the call, she attempts to justify to the dispatcher WHY she should have a gun :rolleyes:. My favorite part was when she goes on and on about how her son is a cop and that therefore (by implication), it's ok for her to have a gun.
3. She pays more attention to the dispatcher than the threat. She claims to see a gun in the guy's hand at one point, but at another point says that the lights are off.
4. She repeatedly tells the dispatcher to hurry up and the incompetent dispatcher utterly fails to educate her that police have already been summoned, and that she needs to pay attention to the intruder instead of hanging on the line.
5. She makes no attempt to communicate with the intruder through the door. Incredible. She keeps saying that she doesn't want to shoot him, but I think that was a lie covered up with emotion because she refused to give ANY warning to the guy (plus she grandstands with the idiotic statement that she'll "kill him graveyard dead"). Fumbling at a door is what drunks DO. He probably thought he was at his house and she didn't bother to yell "who are you" through the door. I had an identical situation when my wife an I were in our first apartment. Some drunk guy was banging on the door thinking he still lived there. I shouted some warnings (while holding my .357) and he left. 1/10th the drama and a better outcome. I doubt this guy would have broken the door if she had reminded him that it wasn't his house.

People are holding this up as some sort of glorious moment for gun owners when in fact it is a giant embarrassment because of her endless panic, the fact that she's scared of the gun she's holding, and the fact that she's not really paying attention to the intruder (who she makes no attempt to communicate with). PLUS the fact that she kills someone in a panic after making no attempt to communicate with them.

SO, what do we learn from this?

1. Make sure your mom has a gun that she will practice with.
2. Make sure she knows better than to hang on the line with dispatch instead of watching the threat.
3. Make sure she understands that making "tough" sounding statements to dispatch can get you prosecuted (she kept saying how "big" her gun was). She must understand that she's DONE with dispatch after she has told them about a potential intruder.

model of 1905
December 9, 2009, 01:59 AM
Everybody is not Rambo like you Kimber.

She did damn good. One less dirtbag and all ended well. Take a fricking chill pill.

Magic_Man
December 9, 2009, 02:32 AM
Kimber, I don't think even drunk guys that think they are at their house hurl tables through their windows.

Kimber45acp
December 9, 2009, 02:36 AM
Drunks do crazy stuff and if you had bothered to listen to the 911 call, you would have noticed that it went on for many minutes before he damaged anything. Killers don't hang out at strange doors for 10 minutes making weird noises. It is an obvious fact that she was in various stages of panic, she admitted that she was scared of the gun she was holding, and SHE was the one talking tough all over the place with phrases like "graveyard dead" and mentioning over and over how huge the gun was (so calling me rambo makes zero sense).

dec41971
December 9, 2009, 02:53 AM
She might have been better firing a warning shot first since this was unfolding rather slowly. She is going to have to deal with life changing effects of having taken a life. Not excusing the guy one bit, just saying I see kimber's point.

woad_yurt
December 9, 2009, 07:42 AM
Kimber45acp:

I think she did just fine. I listened to the whole thing, too. She was pretty calm, considering that that she was under siege by an apparently irrational, threatening guy for a good while. What words and tone of voice do you expect of people in a situation like this? She was pretty together, considering, better than most would be, I think.

Along with saying "graveyard dead," she also called something, I think the shotgun, a "sucker." Sometimes people use common expressions in life. When I listened to her, I felt her resolve; she was going to defend herself!

Aside from her words, of which you disapprove and I approve, her actions were totally righteous, IMO. What else was she supposed to do? Gee whiz!

PS: As an alcoholic/addict w/7+ years in the real world, please believe me when I say that severely intoxicated people are way more erratic and aggressive and dangerous than sober folks, generally. I remember a case in the news where a college student went into a strange couple's apartment and killed them. It was an apartment he had lived in as a child. He was blind plastered and his folks had moved out years previously.

When one smashes one's way into strangers' houses in the middle of the night, one takes a mother of a risk. I think that's how it should be, too.

Sav .250
December 9, 2009, 07:43 AM
Some time is easy to "second guess" what folks do. Course, that`s
after the fact. Just saying. :)

DinosaurJones
December 9, 2009, 08:49 AM
Well I hope her son changes his phone number & she moves the hidden keys to the house... they gave all this lady's information to the public. I

eight433
December 9, 2009, 09:00 AM
There is simply NO WAY he thought he was at his own house. She had a huge gated fence the intruder had to jump to even get onto the property. I find it unfathomable that he was simply drunk and thinking he was at home. Not to mention, they had mugshots of the dirtbag in county orange, indicating that it was far from his first offense. She did GOOD by staying on the phone with dispatch. It is the next best thing to an eye witness, as the dispatcher continually commented and confirmed noises such as his yelling and banging, right up to where he broke in and gained entry. The woman did excellent on all accounts, and was far from frantic IMO. She was very vocal and deliberate about her actions by saying "I am getting the gun. I am taking the safety off the gun" etc etc etc. The way she vocalized everything and the dialogue with the dispatcher should leave VERY LITTLE to the imagination of the prosecutor or a jury, should it go that far.

woad_yurt
December 9, 2009, 09:12 AM
There is simply NO WAY he thought he was at his own house.

Sure, there's a way. I know because I did it. At least twice, back when I drank, I went to the wrong house. One of those times, I was in a blackout and don't remember a thing; it's a complete blank. It happens if you drink enough. Any AA group will be able tell you about numerous similar experiences. Liquor and (sometimes!) a handful of Valium will do amazing things to one.

sanerkeki
December 9, 2009, 09:15 AM
I think she did what she had to I mean for a female and an elderly woman alone what else she could have done. Of course she is going to panic and be confused to what to do and she had to provent him from getting close to her. Every situation is different and no matter how much gun training or any trining you have there is going to be panic in these situations.

HoosierQ
December 9, 2009, 09:17 AM
The poor lady did just fine. Of course she was panicking. Of course she was running off at the mouth (it's called whistling in the dark).

She did great. All of us men (and/or "gun owners") should hope to do as well when the SHsTF like it did for this lady.

So she gets a D in making a dignified 911 call. She gets an A+ in defending herself against an attacker in a tough situation. Since the outcome is where it counts...A+ for the course.

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 09:22 AM
She gets an A+ in defending herself against an attacker in a tough situation. Since the outcome is where it counts...A+ for the course.

Gotta agree with this. She's typical of most gun owners frankly, she has one but has never really put any real thought into what she would DO with it should the situation ever arise.

I've got friends just like that. Bought a pistol and a box of ammo, shot one mag through and stuck it in a drawer by the bed, convinced they were "safer".

Happens all the time. Lucky for her she managed to protect herself.

Sure, it would be great if we had easily available public education on guns and self defense in this country, but we don't.

She gets an A++

sheepdog
December 9, 2009, 09:29 AM
...and/or on Valium has nothing to do with the outcome...he CHOSE to do that, if he did it...there is no excusing what he did...and no way in hell to find any reason to blame this woman....and, for those who don't know it....56 is NOT elderly...shame on you!!!;) She's a spring chicken!!!

eight433
December 9, 2009, 09:29 AM
Sure, there's a way. I know because I did it. At least twice, back when I drank, I went to the wrong house. One of those times, I was in a blackout and don't remember a thing; it's a complete blank. It happens if you drink enough. Any AA group will be able tell you about numerous similar experiences. Liquor and (sometimes!) a handful of Valium will do amazing things to one.


Ok, I retract my statement that there is "no way" he thought he was at home.
BUT had you thrown MY patio chair through MY patio window, you would have ended up dead on the floor as well!

Walkalong
December 9, 2009, 09:32 AM
She gets an A++
Yep, and half the folks who train with guns would be scared if it happened to them. It's only natural. Most of us are not battle hardened troops, just regular folks. Many of us would do fine, and some of us would not, but I believe we would all be scared to one degree or the other. (Except for a few Rambos;)) The trick is to act properly under stress/fear. That is what training is all about, helping us to react properly under the stress of a real situation.

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 09:35 AM
Many of us would do fine, and some of us would not, but I believe we would all be scared to one degree or the other.

No joke.

I've taken classes, put more thought into it than most shooters, and I have no doubt that I'd be afraid if someone kicked in the door. Not sure I'd be SANE if I wasn't afraid of something like that.

If there is a lesson learned here at all it's one that we've talked about a LOT in the past, be careful what you say into that telephone. In this case no harm done, but constant talking into that 911 recorder will be replayed over and over. One wrong word can change things in a bad way.

sheepdog
December 9, 2009, 09:40 AM
"...and herein lies the lesson..."

+1, Walkalong...professional LEO or Soldier...citizen...we ALL know fear...

"The trick is to act properly under stress/fear. That is what training is all about, helping us to react properly under the stress of a real situation...

...VERY well put, Sir!!!

lonewolf2810
December 9, 2009, 09:40 AM
First of all this is a bad situation as someone lost their live BG or not. When it comes down to it she did what she had to do and that is it. Could it have been done different who knows. Yea she could have waited until he got in and came after her but you have to ask would you want your mother to wait (I don't think so).

As for her telling the dispatcher about the guns size and she will kill him graveyard dead so be it hate to say, it is justified as it should be. But as I stated above it is a bad situation as someone lost their life and another has to live with the fact that he/she made that choice. So in my eyes it is a no win situation.

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 09:46 AM
The DA has decided not to pursue charges.

There's a little more info here in this story. Very odd set of events for sure.

http://newsok.com/law-allows-fatal-shot-lincoln-county-official-says/article/3423575#ixzz0ZC8Ja2gY

Mangion said Riley was driving nearby with his sister when he drove off the roadway and got stuck.
"His motivations are unclear from this investigation,” Mangion said. "He went over a fence with a locked gate and he had to fight off a dog once he got in the yard, so I doubt he was looking for help,” Mangion said. "I doubt that (getting help) was his motivation.”
Patricia Totty, Riley’s sister, was passed out in the car in an apparent overdose of narcotics and alcohol, Mangion said. She has since been released from the hospital. She is from Siloam Springs, Ark.

lonewolf2810
December 9, 2009, 09:52 AM
Just to add to this, people handle things different. Some of us may wait until you see the whites of their eyes so to say and some of us may choose to shoot at first sound (not good). I want to think I would confront the BG and let him know I am armed but really not sure when it comes down to it and the ole heart is pumping in overdrive. Every situation is different.

wishin
December 9, 2009, 09:55 AM
If I were the lady in question reading this thread, my comment would be:

Walk in my shoes, then come back and post a critical comment!

EddieNFL
December 9, 2009, 10:02 AM
So in my eyes it is a no win situation.

I feel differently. It's a terrible thing when someone dies, particularly for stupid choices/reasons and it's terrible someone has to live with taking a human life, but while the outcome possibly could have been better, it could have also been worse.

Maybe "win" isn't the best term, but If I survived such an encounter I wouldn't consider myself the loser.

esquare
December 9, 2009, 10:08 AM
My gosh - she defended herself from an assault. That's all that matters in my book.

What's with all this 'he's drunk, he thought it was his own house' stuff? Frankly, if you take anything that impairs your judgment that much and then go break into someone's house, you run the risk of getting shot. What if he did think it was his own house, he breaks in and finds her, and then beats her unconscious for being in 'his' house? People do stupid things when they are under the influence, but that doesn't remove the consequences of their actions.

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 10:08 AM
She makes no attempt to communicate with the intruder through the door. Incredible. She keeps saying that she doesn't want to shoot him, but I think that was a lie covered up with emotion because she refused to give ANY warning to the guy (plus she grandstands with the idiotic statement that she'll "kill him graveyard dead"). Fumbling at a door is what drunks DO. He probably thought he was at his house and she didn't bother to yell "who are you" through the door. I had an identical situation when my wife an I were in our first apartment. Some drunk guy was banging on the door thinking he still lived there. I shouted some warnings (while holding my .357) and he left. 1/10th the drama and a better outcome. I doubt this guy would have broken the door if she had reminded him that it wasn't his house.
As I once said to a Brit who said that people shouldn't have guns because they'd shoot drunks breaking into the wrong house:

If you have such a problem with alcohol that it causes you to try to break into other people's homes, STOP DRINKING.

If you can't or don't want to STOP DRINKING, expect to get SHOT if you break into somebody else's home.

Your drinking is YOUR problem and I don't care one bit about it.

Your breaking into my home is MY problem, and my way of dealing with that problem involves a Norinco M1911 and 200gr. Hornady TAP. Don't like that?

STOP DRINKING.

People are holding this up as some sort of glorious moment for gun owners when in fact it is a giant embarrassment because of her endless panic, the fact that she's scared of the gun she's holding, and the fact that she's not really paying attention to the intruder (who she makes no attempt to communicate with). PLUS the fact that she kills someone in a panic after making no attempt to communicate with them.
Ok, maybe they should rescind that invitation for her to join SEAL Team 6. Other than that, DON'T GET DRUNK AND TRY TO FORCE YOUR WAY INTO THE HOMES OF STRANGERS.

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 10:15 AM
"He went over a fence with a locked gate and he had to fight off a dog once he got in the yard, so I doubt he was looking for help,
This is eerily reminiscent of an incident in the Houston area in the '90s when a drunken Scotsman bailed out of a taxi, scaled a tall fence and began trying to kick in the home owner's back door. He was ordered to cease and desist and that he would be shot if he made it through the door. He succeeded in kicking in part of the door and was shot.

Drooling simpletons, especially in the UK, decried the inability of drunken ignoramuses to commit home invasions in safety in the United States. The ones stupid enough to say this in public were humiliated by a lot of people, myself included.

If drinking makes you commit home invasions, STOP DRINKING.

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 10:25 AM
PLUS the fact that she kills someone in a panic after making no attempt to communicate with them.

Yes, you left out the fact where he had to FIGHT OFF HER DOG FIRST and CLIMB OVER A LOCKED GATE.

I'd say that's plenty of warning that you are in the wrong place.

Unreal some of the comments.....

highorder
December 9, 2009, 10:27 AM
It seems to me that some people think that drunks are a "victim" of alcohol.

You know, like the booze is inflicting damage, not the person with the drink in their hand.

Seems like some people feel that way about guns, no?...

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 10:29 AM
Seems like some people feel that way about guns, no?...

"That bottle of Thunderbird MADE me drive into that school bus....." I can hear it now....

LeonCarr
December 9, 2009, 10:30 AM
Anybody who says they would not be afraid in a situation like that is a lying sack of fecal matter, regardless of their training.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

FIVETWOSEVEN
December 9, 2009, 10:30 AM
i would warn the person first but she did right.

EddieNFL
December 9, 2009, 10:41 AM
It seems to me that some people think that drunks are a "victim" of alcohol.

"It's a disease; they need our help; he was predisposed to become an alcoholic because his father was an alcoholic."

It's a self-inflicted disease.

Can't help someone who refuses to help themselves.

He chose to take the first drink.

BCC
December 9, 2009, 10:51 AM
I think she did an amazingly good job on her 911 call.

She called for assistance
She gave a clear, concise address
She described what was taking place
She kept 911 informed as events unfolded
She made it clear she did not want to have to shoot, but would to defend herself
She told 911 about the dogs, keys, gate, house
She conveyed remorse at having to shoot the intruder
She told dispatch she would put the safety back on when the police arrived
She secured the gun once the threat was over and before the police were on site
She let 911 know her son was a cop


I feel sorry for the woman. a hell of a thing to go through.

She had to defend herself and she acted correctly in a very stressful situation.

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 11:03 AM
"That bottle of Thunderbird MADE me drive into that school bus....."
"...while driving the wrong way on Hwy 31w" (That actually happened, killing some school kids from the Ft. Knox area.)

If somebody wants to get blind drunk and stick a fork into a wall socket, that's fine by me. When he drags ME into his black hole of stupidity, he gets no breaks which would increase MY risk in ANY way. The State of Ohio doesn't expect me to give him any such breaks to my own peril either.

I'm not a substance abuse counselor. I'm ESPECIALLY not a substance abuse counselor for strangers who kick down my door or break my windows in search of my "services".

NOBODY has the right to impose the risks arising out of their own irresponsible behavior onto OTHER people. I have absolutely NO sympathy for the imbecile who comes to a violent end when he does so.

ByAnyMeans
December 9, 2009, 11:04 AM
I give this lady an A+ in my book.

She heard a threat and evaluated the situation. She knew the threat was on the outside and had not breached her house. As the threat increased she became more ready to react. She knew her weapon well enough to chamber a round, work the safety as needed as well as the trigger and poa/poi to make a one shot stopping hit as well as her round count after. She also knew the limitations of her weapon and did not want to be contained in a small room when she had a solid fixed position on the threat. She even killed the lights to limit his visibility into the house. She never said the shotgun was to big for her but rather to big to fire one handed so she would drop the phone to properly shoulder the gun.

I know their are some who say to hang up after giving all necessary information to 911 but given her son was a police officer she was probably told to stay on the line or made what was a rational decision to her to stay on the line to relay info as she did. She made statements that did not sound good that were recorded but many statements after that show no desire to have killed him. Their are some who say to fire a warning shot but others who disagree. Their are some who say to yell a warning but others that liken that to not having your shotgun ready to go and gives to much vital info to the threat when a noise is made. Individuals have to make their own decisions regarding their specific situation. Castle Doctrines are a way to protect homeowners right to make their individual decision.

Their are definitely things that would of been better such as a short barreled shotgun with it's maximum capacity instead of the three rounds she had, a pistol to have cleared the house with on her way to taking up a fixed position, and a hands free headset if she planned to stay on the phone. That being said not everyone is professionally trained and others don't posses the skills of a ninja so they do what they can.

I have read it here before but forget who said it "Run the gun you got".
She ran it and ran it well.

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 11:12 AM
Their are some who say to fire a warning shot but others who disagree.
Warning shots are an epic fail.

You're responsible for ALL of your projectiles and where they go.

If she didn't have a clearing barrel in her living room, one wonders WHERE she was supposed to fire that warning shot.

Of course, in a sense, she did fire a warning shot. It was a warning to other drugged and drunken pinheads that home invasions are dangerous for the home INVADER too.

NMGonzo
December 9, 2009, 11:15 AM
And the lesson is; drugs are bad, and nice ladies will turn blast you away if you mess with them.

Lou McGopher
December 9, 2009, 11:27 AM
was holding a weapon that

A. she was not comfortable with
B. was afraid of
C. was admittedly too big for her

I may have heard wrong, but I think the lady was saying that if she had to fire (it was a 16ga), she'd have to put down the phone first.

And has anyone mentioned yet how long it took after the 911 dispatcher was notified of the intruder for the police to arrive?

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 11:32 AM
And has anyone mentioned yet how long it took after the 911 dispatcher was notified of the intruder for the police to arrive?

20 minutes according to a news report I read when the other day. Shooting was about 10 minutes into the call the article said.

ByAnyMeans
December 9, 2009, 11:51 AM
I believe it was the twenty-third minute till she positively identified a police office was their.

-Thirteen minutes after he broke in.

-Twenty-two and a half minutes after the 911 operators said to the officers or a supervisor in the back ground that it was a serious threat, she could hear the suspect and the banging.

-Twenty minutes after the 911 operator confirmed the corner of the neighorhood she lived in.

The only thing that gave her a chance was the weapon in her hand. The cops can only get their so fast even when they know it's a serious threat and the location of your house. Not a knock on them, they can only be so many places at one time.

Madcap_Magician
December 9, 2009, 11:59 AM
Outstanding, IMHO.

1. She was armed and while she may not have been comfortable with the shotgun, she evidently knew how to use it.
2. She dialed 911 and kept the operator up to date on everything that was happening.
3. She sounded like she was scared out of her mind, but kept relatively calm.
4. She was justifiably in fear for her life and defended herself well, while giving the perpetrator maximum opportunity to leave.

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 12:07 PM
20 minutes according to a news report I read when the other day. Shooting was about 10 minutes into the call the article said.
But of course those of us with two braincells to rub together know that 911 is a communications system of variable efficacy, NOT a matter transporter or a cloning machine.

Assuming fanatical zealousness on the part of the police where you live:

1. Your assailant has to ALLOW you to get to a phone, ALLOW you to dial 911, and ALLOW you to communicate coherently and effectively with the 911 operator(s) (more on THAT later). I wonder how many people (nevermind elderly women) can calmly converse on the telephone, providing relevant information, while somebody is trying to break in... or chasing them around the house with a butcher knife?

2. 911 has to be WORKING. Sometimes it ISN'T.

3. There has to be someone on the other end available to take your call. Sometimes there isn't. Ready to outrun that knife wielding maniac a little longer while you're on hold?

4. You may have to talk to MULTIPLE 911 operators. A few years ago, I called 911 to report a man passed out in the gutter in front of a bar in Lakewood, Ohio. After calmly and accurately providing the relevant information to the 911 operator, I was transferred to ANOTHER 911 operator to whom I had to provide the SAME information all over again. Again, not a big deal while you outrun that knife wielding maniac, right?

5. You have to get an intelligent human being on the line at 911. The SECOND 911 operator with whom I talked during the incident with the unconscious man interpreted my clear description of him being "unconscious and unresponsive in the gutter in front of X bar", as him being "on the roof". After wasting a good deal of time explaining that the victim was neither on the roof nor had he been dragged into the storm drains by giant radioactive ants, Kelly Bundy at 911 was apparently FAR more interested in my personal contact information than in the condition of the subject.

6. 911 has to relay your call to the police, and do so ACCURATELY. If they give those fanatically zealous police the wrong address, you'll be running from "Michael Meyers" even longer. If they don't notify the police AT ALL, perhaps because they want you to put the wouldbe murderer on the line (which actually happened in Detroit) first, you've got a LOT of running to do. Getting tired yet?

7. There have to BE police available to answer the call. If there are only enough cops available to take care of your "Michael Meyers" problem, somebody else's "Jason Voorhees" problem, or a third person's "Leatherface" problem, but NOT all three, whom should they pick, and what recourse do you have if you lose the coin toss? Here's a hint: NONE.

8. The police have to be not just zealous, but competent. They have to be able to follow instructions and read addresses.

9. ALL of that has to work correctly in order for those zealous cops to show up at your door, AT ALL, nevermind in enough time to "protect" you.

10. If the cops in your town AREN'T zealous...

If none of this were true, nobody would have bothered to write a book called "Dial 911 and Die".

When you're in danger of deadly force RIGHT NOW, be prepared to defend YOURSELF, or be prepared not to get "protected" AT ALL.

sheepdog
December 9, 2009, 12:20 PM
...a lot of 911 operators act like they couldn't handle "one and one..."...and put both us and the officers on the street in jeapordy...at least a dozen times, I've called the police, given every detail needed...repeated myself and answered their questions...again...and when the officer got there, he hadn't been given much, if any, of the details I'd given...and wasn't sure why he was there....this in several jurisdictions....I'd much rather see street officers rotate through dispatch for a week or so every few months...they KNOW what their brothers/sisters out there need to do their job more safely...

hso
December 9, 2009, 12:46 PM
The dispatcher didn't do a very good job of keeping her informed initially of what the dispatcher is doing.

The woman is remarkably calm on the phone and giving instructions on how the police can get into the yard and in giving the dispatcher the outdoor dog's name and asking about if specific officers are on duty that she knows.

The dispatcher tells the homeowner that county tells her that she can defend her property (not always the exact correct info) with the weapon, but it is assumed that the dispatcher is relaying that the country officer en route is telling her she can defend herself.

I wonder why she never warned him off, especially if she thought he was drunk, but people don't always do what we think we would do under stress.

She has the presence of mind to tell the dispatcher several times that she has a shotgun and that she has the weapon off safe and that she'll put the safety on as soon as the dispatcher tells her the officers are there. My interpretation is that she wanted to avoid shooting the intruder and wanted to assure the dispatcher that she wouldn't shoot the officers. With her son being LE I can see the concern for the safety of the responding officers.

It is a relief that the dispatcher tells her repeatedly that she was only defending herself and that she had the right to do so instead of telling her that she had to be a victim.

skwab
December 9, 2009, 12:51 PM
Wow - I'm really surprised at some of the comments here. Personally I thought she did great. IMO, she didn't become unglued until after she shot the guy - until then she was very calm, rational - she didn't grab her shotgun first and then the phone, she called 911, gave the dispatcher very clear, concise information throughout the entire ordeal. And hell yeah she was scared - I would have been, and my wife surely would have been, but she handled herself better than one would have expected. She didn't grab the gun until well into the ordeal - she did not present the weapon until it needed to be used.

How was the dispatcher incompetent? She told her repeatedly that police were on the way, she kept her talking, relayed every piece of info to the police in transit, did a good job of consoling and reassuring the homeowner while maintaining her professionalism - what more could she have done?

And I'm sorry, I don't buy this argument that she should have tried to talk this guy out of it or fired a warning shot. He was drunk and high and irrational - and I'm sorry for those here who have struggled with addiction, and I think it's great that you have overcome it, but the fact that he was under many influences is not an excuse to break into a house - First off, we have no idea what transpired before the call, second the guy scaled a fence, fought off at least one dog, and forcefully tried to enter the residence. He wasn't banging on the door and the lady shot him through the glass, HE through a chair through a glass door to gain entry to the residence - this is not someone who will respond to a conversation.

But people who are against firearms in the home need to listen to this tape. everything was done right, and yet the homeowner still had to defend herself that's not the fault of the police, or the dispatcher - it's just a matter of real estate - police cannot be everywhere, and so we cannot rely on them to get us out of a situation like this.

alsaqr
December 9, 2009, 12:54 PM
The Lincoln country, OK DA gave the lady a pass yesterday, four days after she shot the perp. Yep, OK is a good place to live.

http://newsok.com/law-allows-fatal-shot-lincoln-county-official-says/article/3423575

The DA's letter exonerating the lady.

http://s3.amazonaws.com/content.newsok.com/documents/d8shooting.pdf

Mike In Charleston
December 9, 2009, 12:54 PM
There have been several posts that indicate they would have expected the woman to try and warn him off which I don't understand. If I was sitting in the dark with a crazy man yelling and beating on my door and he hasn't managed to get in yet, I'm not going to make it known that there is anyone in the house. I would wait him out and either he gives up and goes away since he doesn't know anyone is there, or he does what he did and the result is the same.

BCC
December 9, 2009, 12:54 PM
Well there you go. I thought the 911 operator was extremely professional and helpful.

I was delighted to see she told the homeowner she was right to protect herself.

And would you people STOP calling a 56 year old elderly! Sheez.:D

TimM
December 9, 2009, 12:57 PM
^ +1

After listening to the call one of the things that surprised me the most was the competence of the 911 operator (we've all heard 911 calls where you just want to kick the operator in the teeth, most of them make you wonder how they find their way out of bed in the morning). She continued giving the officers detailed info and and never talked down to the caller. At any moment I expected to hear her tell the caller to put the gun down or get rid of the gun and go hide, she never did. She told the caller to "do what you have to do"... kudos.

I guess this is the difference between God fearing conservative country folks and the inner-city Chicago (insert whatever dirtbag jurisdiction you want) liberal idiots.

alsaqr
December 9, 2009, 01:00 PM
Deleted.

jaholder1971
December 9, 2009, 02:34 PM
Warning Shots???

He had warning...

He had warning when the fence he climbed over had a locked gate.

He had warning when he had to fight the dog off of him.

He had warning when the sliding glass door was locked.

He had warning when he saw the little old lady WITH THE FREAKING SHOTGUN!!!

I'm ashamed of all the alcoholic apologists in this thread. Part of the steps in AA is taking responsibility for yourself and what your drinking has done.

DinosaurJones
December 9, 2009, 03:49 PM
he had to fight the dog off of him

neither here nor there but...

I've seen several people say this... i listened to the entire call and it seemed to me that she said the dog was on the other side of the fence minding goats. she says something like "cody did the best he could but he couldnt get to him".

As for my .02... Had it been me I would have verbally confronted the "gentleman" before firing. Had it been my wife/mother/daughter/grandmother/anyone not 100% comfortable with doing so I'd say don't make yourself known. So in other words, had this been my mother, I'd want her to do exactly what Ms Jackson did.

-eaux-
December 9, 2009, 04:01 PM
if it had been my mother/wife/child i would be indescribably proud of the level-headedness and proper-to-escalating-threat-level behavior that this lady displayed. poor thing has to live with the fact that she was forced to do something that she is CLEARLY distraught by.
none of us (i hope) EVER want to use our weapons against another person under any circumstances.
God forbid me or my family ever have to live through something like that, but i can only hope that i/we would respond in such fashion.

hso
December 9, 2009, 04:01 PM
Pretty clear the DA doesn't consider the shooting UNreasonable. :o

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 04:05 PM
Pretty clear the DA doesn't consider the shooting reasonable.
Did you mean to say "doesn't consider the shooting UNreasonable"?

sheepdog
December 9, 2009, 04:29 PM
...what he meant to say...referencing the letter...oh, that all prosecutors were so intelligent and unbiased!~!!!

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 04:35 PM
Regardless of the many posts about how this may end up in civil court, I just don't see that happening based on this DA letter. I can't imagine a civil lawyer who would want to go near this one.

This is a good decision by the DA. It saves taxpayer money by not putting her on trial where she would probably be found not guilty anyway, it saves her money and trauma, and it does the right thing by the citizens of Oklahoma, reinforcing the message that they can feel safe in their own homes.

It's nice to see that the doom and gloom predictions by many here that if you ever under any circumstance have to use deadly force you'll be paying thousands of dollars to defend yourself simply isn't always true.

DC300a
December 9, 2009, 04:40 PM
I think the DA's letter came to the same conclusion that most of us here already thought. The shoot was justified. Based on the finding of the DA, it will make it very difficult to win a civil case. If you can find an attorney to take it on...

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 04:53 PM
Regardless of the many posts about how this may end up in civil court, I just don't see that happening based on this DA letter. I can't imagine a civil lawyer who would want to go near this one.
It certainly wouldn't go to a civil court in Ohio. If it's justifiable, it's not actionable.

Kimber45acp
December 9, 2009, 05:13 PM
I may have heard wrong, but I think the lady was saying that if she had to fire (it was a 16ga), she'd have to put down the phone first.
It is a very long 911 call (I listened to most of the 30 minute version) and she does say that she's afraid the gun will break her arm.

woad_yurt
December 9, 2009, 05:22 PM
I reconsidered and deleted. As you were.

benEzra
December 9, 2009, 05:53 PM
For those advocating firing a warning shot, she was holding (if I understand correctly) a 3-shot shotgun, and facing an intoxicated and very violent intruder with the police still 13 minutes away. Would you throw away a third of your gun's capacity if you only had 3 rounds to start with? I know I wouldn't.

The NYPD Stakeout Squad shooting side-by-sides back in the day IIRC had a hit percentage under 50%, and those weren't elderly women in their first gunfight. I'd say firing a warning shot in her circumstances would have been unwise, even if warning shots weren't generally a bad idea.

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 05:56 PM
I'd say firing a warning shot in her circumstances would have been unwise, even if warning shots weren't generally a bad idea.

Plus she would have had to fix the hole in her wall, or dog, or something.

Warning shots have to GO somewhere.....

Warning shots are a silly idea.

Officers'Wife
December 9, 2009, 06:03 PM
Hi hso

Pretty clear the DA doesn't consider the shooting reasonable.

the letter says the shooting was justified and declined to prosecute. How does the language show he doesn't consider it reasonable?

thorazine
December 9, 2009, 06:19 PM
I listened to the entire 911 call. This lady was a basketcase and NOT gun owner (despite the fact that she was holding a shotgun). She was in a panic the entire call and was holding a weapon that

A. she was not comfortable with
B. was afraid of
C. was admittedly too big for her

Albeit it your points are probably true...

The outcome is still the uncomfortable scary gun held by the basketcase which was too big for her -- quite possibly saved her life.

Art Eatman
December 9, 2009, 06:42 PM
Officers'Wife: Typos happen.

Typoooos Hpapen...

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 9, 2009, 06:46 PM
Regardless of the many posts about how this may end up in civil court, I just don't see that happening based on this DA letter. I can't imagine a civil lawyer who would want to go near this one.

Yep; the Make My Day statute is a defense to both criminal and civil actions.

Myself, I would have said "reach for the sky a-hole" and let him live, provided he complied. That way maybe you can get some restitution payments out of him for the break in. But in her shoes, a middle aged female - can't say that I blame her for blasting first thing through the door.

KBintheSLC
December 9, 2009, 07:09 PM
Everybody is not Rambo like you Kimber.

She did damn good. One less dirtbag and all ended well. Take a fricking chill pill.

Ditto... I think 'ol Kim45 is being overly judgmental. So, she was scared. So, she was not comfortable with the shotgun. So, she babbled on a bit with the dispatcher. So what I ask? She still did the job when the moment of truth care round.

I am betting he has never been in a real situation of this sort... beyond what he picked up on the tube in moms basement that is.

MM60
December 9, 2009, 07:46 PM
I think that getting shot with a shotgun is a fitting end for anybody who drinks alcohol or uses drugs; one less slimeball in the world.

Deanimator
December 9, 2009, 07:57 PM
I think that getting shot with a shotgun is a fitting end for anybody who drinks alcohol or uses drugs
So then, because I'm drinking a glass of burgundy, I deserve to die?

Perhaps your turban is on a little too tight, Mullah Omar.

rondog
December 9, 2009, 09:08 PM
I think the lady needs to be gifted with a .30 carbine. Much easier to handle than a big ol' shotgun.

EddieNFL
December 9, 2009, 09:27 PM
So then, because I'm drinking a glass of burgundy, I deserve to die?

Are you having fish?

benEzra
December 9, 2009, 09:33 PM
I think that getting shot with a shotgun is a fitting end for anybody who drinks alcohol or uses drugs and then breaks into an elderly woman's home to attack her; one less slimeball in the world.
There, fixed it for you. :)

My wife and I both drink alcohol in moderation. We do not, however, make it a practice to attack people in their homes after doing so, and would both object to the label "slimeball."

Are you having fish?
ROFL!

TexasRifleman
December 9, 2009, 09:33 PM
So then, because I'm drinking a glass of burgundy, I deserve to die?

Heck, if you knock nicely on the front door and tell me your coming I'll share a bottle with you.

Just don't climb over my fence, punch my dog, and throw my patio furniture through the back door :)

ByAnyMeans
December 10, 2009, 12:58 AM
^^^^^^ agreed.

danbrew
December 10, 2009, 09:20 AM
I'm somewhat in the middle of the road on this one. Granted, if somebody throws a chair or table or whatever through my back window and comes in at o'dark thirty, they're getting shot too. There's no doubt that this guy was a loon and it helps Mrs. Jackson that he was a known BG and had been in trouble with the law before. The one fact that I've found interesting, and I don't think anyone here references, is that he consistently called out "Pat" while pounding on the back door. His sister is named Pat and she was passed out in an overdose situation in a vehicle just down the road that was stuck. It's not a stretch to think that this guy was trying to get help for his sister.

Of course none of that justifies his actions nor the fact that he was (apparently) so drunk that he couldn't coherently ask for help for his sister. I just wonder if it might have had a different outcome if she had turned on a light and shown the shotgun and said "what the hell is wrong with you?"

Evidence found at the scene is consistent with the statement of Mrs. Jackson. Mr. Riley’s body was found with his feet inside the threshold of the residence. Also found inside the residence was broken glass from the patio door indicating that the door had been broken from the outside. Pieces of the broken glass found inside the residence contained prints consistent with Billy Riley’s boots.

The Oklahoma statue quoted by the DA requires there to have been unlawful entry into the home - interesting how the guys feet were "across the threshold". I wonder if his boot marks were found inside the home?

Of course it's very easy for me (and everybody else) to Monday morning this. It's a sad situation that the Jackson family will have to deal with as well as the dead guy and his family.

I agree with much of what Kimber45ACP had to say about the fact that Mrs. Jackson was a chatty cathy with the 911 operator. In a different jurisdiction her statements would have put her behind bars. Although I'd bet that many 911 calls go down just like that (but maybe not so long...!).

SNK SKNR
December 10, 2009, 09:35 AM
In a different jurisdiction her statements would have put her behind bars.

:scrutiny: Why would that be?

EddieNFL
December 10, 2009, 09:38 AM
I agree with much of what Kimber45ACP had to say about the fact that Mrs. Jackson was a chatty cathy with the 911 operator.

Many people ramble under stress. How would you, I or Kimber react in the same situation? Not one of us knows unless we've been there.

Deanimator
December 10, 2009, 09:57 AM
In a different jurisdiction her statements would have put her behind bars.

Why would that be?
I would consider some of her statements "injudicious". Fortunately, the DA had the ability (and common sense) to draw a difference between Carlos Hathcock and a middle aged woman.

In MOST places, she probably wouldn't have been charged, possibly even if the gun weren't registered where that's a requirement. On the other hand, I'm sure that Richard M. Daley or Eric Holder would fight to the death to prosecute her.

TexasRifleman
December 10, 2009, 11:38 AM
I just wonder if it might have had a different outcome if she had turned on a light and shown the shotgun and said "what the hell is wrong with you?"

If he was so out of it that he

1) Climbed a fence
2) fought with a dog
3) threw furniture through a door

Do you really believe that he would have had an epiphany at the sight of a flashlight?

Talk about a stretch....

It's quite possible that the sight of someone inside a home may have enraged him further rather than turned him away.

. I wonder if his boot marks were found inside the home?

Well yes, that is why the DA said his boot prints were found on broken glass inside the home. He stepped inside after breaking the glass with furniture.

Jonah71
December 10, 2009, 12:24 PM
I think a couple of my neighbors would have had him on the ground before I had to use my gun.

Deanimator
December 10, 2009, 12:27 PM
So then, because I'm drinking a glass of burgundy, I deserve to die?
Are you having fish?
No, I had the chicken...
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_q4ggTMQcLgY/SmkBsdomy-I/AAAAAAAADv4/Lwl_3E4oqb0/s320/airplane.jpg

EddieNFL
December 10, 2009, 12:44 PM
No, I had the chicken...

You're safe...provided you "get over" Macho Grande.

Three years ago I happened to be in Carolina visiting family. My brother called me on Saturday morning telling me a neighbor we both knew was in the hospital with a gunshot wound.

At about three AM a drugged up and rather large individual threw a chair through his front window. Billy's wife woke him and he grabbed his sidearm. The intruder entered their bedroom and was obviously disoriented (thought someone was chasing him). Billy ordered him out (later said he didn't want to shoot). The intruder lunged at Billy and they struggled. The gun fired striking Billy in the side. The intruder ran down the hall (toward the children's rooms) with the gun. Willie managed to retrieve an AR and ran after him. Over the next several seconds they exchanged fire (I've forgotten the number of rounds, but it was double digits). The intruder jumped back through the same window and died on the lawn. No was else was wounded.

The outcome could have been much, much worse. It's very easy for me to Monday Morning Quarterback Billy, but I wasn't there.

alsaqr
December 10, 2009, 12:48 PM
It is not necessary for the perp to actually enter the home. A porch is considered a part of a dwelling.



Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 53 - Manufacture, Sale, and Wearing of Weapons
Oklahoma Firearms Act of 1971
Section 1289.25 - Physical or Deadly Force Against Intruder
Cite as: O.S. , __ __


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A. The Legislature hereby recognizes that the citizens of the State of Oklahoma have a right to expect absolute safety within their own homes.

B. A person is presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another when using defensive force that is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm to another if:

1. The person against whom the defensive force was used was in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or had unlawfully and forcibly entered, a dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle, or if that person had removed or was attempting to remove another against the will of that person from the dwelling, residence, or occupied vehicle; and

Dentite
December 10, 2009, 12:48 PM
"No, I had the chicken..."

I believe he actually said "That's right...I had lasagna."

Okay, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

My take on the whole thing...she was probably very lucky she had a gun...I think there was a good chance bad things could have happened had she not.

trigun87
December 10, 2009, 01:10 PM
I side with Kimber I do believe a fatality could have been avoided. True story just last week a coworker of mine who lives in apartment complex had a similar situation. Had a drunk try to pry his way into his apartment by way of glass sliding doors. He confronted the stumbiling confused drunk with verbal warnings; the drunk persisted and my coworker kicked the guy square in the chest and the drunk went scampering away.

Obviously I cant expect an old lady to judo kick the assilant, but a warning or two would have been more reasonable. I noticed alot of you guys are giving the lady kudos, keep in mind all we know of this guy is that he has a criminal past and he's an alcholic. When ever someone dies or is killed , someone somewhere has lost a father,mother,brother,sister etc...

IMO

Justin
December 10, 2009, 01:19 PM
Hey i think this is already posted over in S&T
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=490633

Yikes. I've obviously been slacking off in my mod duties!:o

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