[StorkPatrol]

My house gun is an 870. I guess I just bought into the accepted conventional wisdom that you need a pump action for home defense. I took a shotgun course last spring and every single student had a Remington, Mossberg, or Winchester pump action. Semi-autos aren't as reliable enough, right? But lately I've been thinking about it... I carry a semi-auto handgun. If there was rioting in the streets/collapse of society/zombie apocalypse I would surely reach for one of my semi-auto rifles. So why not a semi-auto shotgun? Is the design technology just not there yet? I suppose I could spend $1500 for a Benelli M4 and hope it was money well spent. They seem to have a good reputation. For that kind of money though I could buy an 870 Express or Mossberg 500 for every room in my house. So is it that there are no acceptable semi-auto's or is it that they just aren't cost effective. Would all the 870 and 500 guys out there use semi's if they were the same price or even close in price? Your thoughts?

--Stork

[ishida]

I sure wouldn't mind using a good semi-auto if price were similar. If I could get Mossberg's semi-auto version of the 500 (I could totally be thinking 590) with a 7-round magazine new for $300 OTD, I'd e all over it and forget the 500 Persuader, though I would still like 500 because it can handle more kinds of shot and pressures without banging the gun up too bad or not cycling the action reliably (I guess that might be the biggest thing about pump over semi--ammo versatility)

[Zundfolge]

As far as I'm concerned, the only reasons for pump shotguns over semi auto is 1) price and 2) ammo variety.

I have a tendency to short stroke under stress (the "massive" stress of busting clays) so for me I'd fell better with a semi as a HD gun.

[hometheaterman]

Semi auto's nowadays are usually pretty reliable. After my experience with a 870 Express I've seen quite a few semi auto's that are more reliable. I think people just buy into the fact that a lot of people want to pump sound to scare intruders coupled with the fact that they are usually a few hundred cheaper.

[PT1911]

as stated... you can get a good pump at a reasonable price but not necessarily the same to be said of Good semi-autos...

the maid difference just seems to be price... IMO.

[9mmepiphany]

i trained for years with the department's Rem 870 and then my personally purchased one...so my tendencies to "short stroke" the action have pretty much been worked out.

for HD i chose the FN SLP w/Ghost ring sights....reliable, faster and softer kicking

[mljdeckard]

If I came into something like a Benelli M4 I would love it, but the the truth is, I have learned to do everything I need to with my 870. If I found a miraculous deal on a good autoloader I might give it a good hard look, but I haven't seen one lately.

[Snarlingiron]

There are certain things that can be done more effectively with a pump. Select a slug,for instance. Load one, shoot one for another. A sticky or sluggish pump sometime can be muscled into functioning, not always so with an autoloader.

Just my thinking. I have 2 870s for HD. I know them like my tongue knows my teeth, so that is really the key. If you feel the same kind of confidence in your autoloader, then that's what you should rely on.

Just my opinion. Not all will see it that way.

[Youngster]

Good reliable semis are spendy, but I believe that extra edge is worth it.

When I get enough money together to buy a shiny new semi my pump is going to be relegated to backup status.

[Gunfighter123]

I have many types of SGs for different reasons ---- I keep my Mossberg with the mag tube loaded and I keep my Saiga S-12 with a full loaded clip.

Most of the semi-autos I've had { Benelli , Rem. 1100 , Saiga , H&K , Win. --- have been very reliable and I would not thing twice about useing them in SD if I had to.

I think the semi-auto would be used more except for price and the fact you do have to do a little more maintanence to them to keep them reliable.

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC00862.jpg
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/DSC01678.jpg

[RedAlert]

Darn, Gunfighter123, by the time you make up your mind which SG to use, the emergency will have passed :)

[BP Hunter]

Gunfighter, you could keep a shotgun in every room.:D

[eye5600]

I was in a gun shop a couple weeks ago and a customer said he wanted a semi-auto 12 gauge for HD. The salesman said, "no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling." And the discussion continued, and the shop owner came over and said "no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling. Trust me I used to each this stuff."

It's just one shop owner's opinion. I don't really have an opinion, except practice, practice, practice. Aside from learning to control the gun so you don't shoot the ceiling, you'll learn if the gun is trustworthy or not.

[CrashInBlack]

There's no reason a semi would be more likely than a pump to put the 2nd shot on the ceiling. It depends on how the shooter handles it. Mine is set up so I have a better grip on the gun (the front grip helps me hold the barrel on target much better than the stock grip). This gun recoils less than my pump 16 gauge shotgun and I would feel more comfortable with it in a HD situation.

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o234/CrashInBlack/Guns/DSCF2391.jpg

I definitely agree with everyone who say you need to know the gun and fire it a lot to make sure it works. This gun wouldn't feed or eject much of anything at first, but within a hundred rounds or so everything wore in nicely and I've had absolutely no problems with it since. Go out, Shoot, and use the one you're most comfortable with.

[CWL]

I use a semi auto for HD, also own a Remington 870 MM. For me, my Beretta 1201fp is lighter and naturally aims faster than the 870, it is also more accurate and patterns better for me and my ammo choices.

Functioned fine last weekend when I took it to the range. As long as I take care of it, it has never given me any problems.

[ArmedBear]

Why not semiauto for an HD shotgun?

I'd only trust certain semiautos for HD, and they tend not to be cheap.

An 870 is a good, reliable shotgun, that's cheap. Ditto for a 500.

Some of us don't want to tie up $1500 in a shotgun that sits in the corner, when we could use that $1500 to buy a nice upland gun, a match-grade 1911, a top-notch hunting rifle, an upgraded AR, a very nice Sharps replica, or a good antique double...:D

And honestly, if a problem can't be solved with 5 rounds of 00 Buck from an 870, then a shotgun isn't my first choice of weapons, anyway. While the shotgun may be the firearm of choice for one-shot stops, there are other guns that I'd prefer for sustained combat.:p

My house isn't big enough to fight WW III in, anyway.:)

[Justin]

The biggest disadvantage of a semi-auto is cost. The good ones are spendy.

The second biggest disadvantage is reliability. Due to the vast variety of shotgun ammunition available, from birdshot, to buckshot, to slugs, to all sorts of oddball rounds, there's no way to know if a particular shotgun will run all ammo reliably. The best you can do is find a model with a reputation for a widespread reliability, and then test it in your shotgun.

[Kind of Blued]

My Remington 1100 has gone just under 1000 rounds since the last time I cleaned it, with zero failures. I've also run a couple hundred through it dirty and dry before with zero failures. I eventually feel neglectful and lubricate it, but I'm sure it could run much longer.

This is all with bulk Federal birdshot, which makes it even more impressive. The buck and slugs that I would use for defense would provide a bit more gas to get the gears moving.

Granted, it is particular about the Federal birdshot loads. I have had problems with the gun cycling when using Winchester loads. Justin's words above are wise ones to follow.

[kimberfan]

mossberg 930spx got mine for 565$ and love it doesnt like winchester or fed bridshot loads (low base target ones) anything high base works everytime i have about 400rounds thru mine of which 6 hung up (low base birdshot)

as for high base i have shot 200 rounds with not so much as a hiccup

as for the 2nd round going thru the ceiling? haha not so much i can dump 8 rounds of 00buck all center mass in 3 seconds flat, 5 seconds using 3'' mags

the 930 is the poor mans SLP and one of the best semi's i've seen.

[Gunfighter123]

I was in a gun shop a couple weeks ago and a customer said he wanted a semi-auto 12 gauge for HD. The salesman said, "no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling." And the discussion continued, and the shop owner came over and said "no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling. Trust me I used to each this stuff."

I got to agree that is total BS !!! Anyone over 4 feet tall and 100 LBs. can shoot a 12ga. fassst ---- like AT LEAST 5 rds. in 6-8 sec. ----- useing Win. 00 Buck my best time for clearing a table of 5 Bowling Pins is 2.2 seconds.

[ArmedBear]

"no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling."

LOL

Funny, but I've fired four shots on one swing, shooting at a wild-flushing pheasant that I just wanted to make sure I put down since it went into a glide instead of a drop. The recoil never broke my swing, and all the shots went where I wanted them to, really fast.

High-brass pheasant loads kick at least as much as reasonable self-defense buckshot loads.

[PJR]

Both the pump and semi have advantages and disadvantages. The semi is less tolerant of abuse and neglect, can be fussy on ammo and is generally more expensive.

The pump can shoot a wider range of shells, tolerates considerable neglect, less expensive but requires a greater degree of operator proficiency.

I use a pump for serious duties but only because I shoot pumps regularly otherwise I'd probably select a semi-automatic.

[Youngster]

Truly reliable autoloaders are still a fairly new thing but I'm willing to bet that we'll see a lot of folks switching over from pumps over the next decade or two.

[Girodin]

The salesman said, "no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling." And the discussion continued, and the shop owner came over and said "no, no, bad idea, the second shot will end up the ceiling. Trust me I used to each this stuff."

I can only imagine that neither of them have ever shot a semi or seen one shot. Sadly gun shops are often bastions of misinformation.

Anyone over 4 feet tall and 100 LBs. can shoot a 12ga. fassst ---- like AT LEAST 5 rds. in 6-8 sec.

She does six in seven seconds and I do not get the impression she is trying to be particularly fast.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlPEvqbuRKI

I can shoot 11 aimed shots in less than that with my S12. Just trying to shoot as fast I can and keep it on one target probably takes about 3 seconds to dump a 10 round mag.

I've seen guys unload a 20 round drum in that time.

Granted the gun in video below has a good brake out front but he it should help in making the point others have above.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GpMvj-v3_w

One more if anyone is still doubting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MahA82t934&feature=related

And some Benelli

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3B3PTW9NWk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Cy3jA8y_3U&feature=related

[kimberfan]

just to add to the above

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5oKrzY_Pyk

[jmr40]

A good reliable semi is fine in my opinion. To get a good reliable semi will cost you a lot more than a pump. The pump will work with a wider range of ammo, particularly light loads. Most autos will work most reliably with the standard to heavy loads.

If you don't mind spending the extra money and making sure they function reliably with the chosen ammo I see no reason not to trust an auto just as much as a pump.

[Lastmohecken]

Semi-auto shotguns have been reliable for a hundred years, or at least one has, if maintained correctly, and that's the old Browning A5. I have owned several pumps, and quite a few autos, and I will put my money on a good Browning A5 before I will about any pump. And that's what I keep loaded, for a house gun is a very old A5, but I have shot it thousands of rounds, and it was very used and old before I ever bought it.

Granted it if is assembled wrong, it might not kick out light loads, but if the rings are right, mine will shoot anything I have ever tried. I have seen far more jams with pumps, plus I like the magazine cutoff, which makes it easy to switch the first load. But I guess the average A5 is a little more expensive.

I even know an old man, who was a friend of my dad's, who once told me that he carried an A5 while serving as an advisor in Nam. I do know he seen a lot of action. If I ever get to talk to him, again, I am going to ask him what kind of maintance he did on his A5, to keep it running.

[ShowMe2]

I've seen too many cops short cycle a pump gun in training. Yes, it is a training issue, but no one seems to know how much more training is needed to ensure it won't happen when the stress level really goes up.

I bought a Remington Model 11 at a gun show for $160, had the barrel cut to 18", shot the heck out of it with Federal Tactical buckshot to make sure it was reliable, and now use it for HD.

If a Model 11 was good enough for Charlie Askins and Frank Hamer, it's good enough for me.

[hobbeeman]

My reason for a pump is different than others, I suppose. I like the sound! :eek: When someone racks a pump, the sound is very distinctive and I hope that the BG will take off for the hills when he hears it! :what:

[-v-]

I think the main reason that a pump is used more often for HD then a semi- is cost. A good pump can start around $200 or so for a Maverick 88. A good semi- starts significantly higher than that. Considering the typical HD scenario, 6 shots in a pump-gun is usually more than enough, as it is doubtful that even 4 out of those 6 rounds will actually be fired. Thus the added firepower of a semi- is unnecessary for HD.

Additionally I think it is also a tradition thing. Shot-guns are normally pump action, in most people's minds. When they go to get a shotgun, they naturally think pump gun, with an semi- being a strange exotic.

Naturally, if you live in a former crack house or work for a Mexican drug cartel, your mileage may vary, but for the average homeowner seeking security a 6-shot 18.5" pump is more than enough to cover all their needs.

[IdahoLT1]

I think some of the people are talking w/out much experience. My 11-87 easily has over 2000 shells through it. In that time, ive had 3 FTE's. and stovepipes are easy to fix. I paid like $600 for it(not expensive for a shotgun IMO)

The semi's also reduce the felt recoil. Ive put 5 rounds of 3" 000buck into a stump as fast as i could pull the trigger. Ive also gone through 300 shells in a single afternoon shoting clay pigeons and my shoulder was a little red.

And the only "picky" autoloaders are the 3.5" chambered ones. Ive shot everything from 3" 000 buck to 2 3/4 #8 shot through my 11-87(3"). No problems other than mentioned above. The recoil operated shot guns will be the fusier ones if anything, but thats only going to be with 2 3/4 target loads.

Price is a thing to consider, but to me, having a gun where i can get 2-3 accurate shots down range in the time it takes a pump to get 1 is worth the extra $200.

I doubt Tom Knapp could do this with a pump. And this gun is a production model. the only mods were a mag extension and a fiber optic sight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpv0yZC3iMM

[ArmedBear]

IdahoLT1, if you look on Tom Knapp's site, you'll see that you're right. He only breaks 8 with a pump...

http://www.tomknapp.net/about/worldRecords.php (See World Record #2)

Stovepipes aren't all that easy to fix under stress, either.

That doesn't mean semis are bad, or that pumps are the only way to go. I don't use my pump gun for much, either.

Ive put 5 rounds of 3" 000buck into a stump as fast as i could pull the trigger.

If you have to do that in your house, you are either being burglarized by a herd of white rhinos, or you are a terrible shot and had better hope you're a really good carpenter.:D

[Zundfolge]

My reason for a pump is different than others, I suppose. I like the sound! :eek: When someone racks a pump, the sound is very distinctive and I hope that the BG will take off for the hills when he hears it! :what: This has always bugged the crap out of me. Sure some people may be scared away by the pump action sound, but still others will chuckle to themselves that you just gave away your tactical advantage by giving away your position and BANG you're toast.

Using guns as props to scare bad guys away is a good way to get yourself killed.

If I have to use a gun for home defense I want the sumbidge down before he hears my gun discharge.

Semi-auto shotguns have been reliable for a hundred years, or at least one has, if maintained correctly, and that's the old Browning A5.
Hmm ... I wonder if an A5 would make a good shotgun for 3-Gun (which is probably the toughest test of a shotguns reliability)

[SuperNaut]

I've seen too many cops short cycle a pump gun in training. Yes, it is a training issue, but no one seems to know how much more training is needed to ensure it won't happen when the stress level really goes up.

I never short-stroked a pump in my life, until I took a shotgun training course. Then I short-stroked pretty much constantly throughout the entire course. It is interesting what a little stress can highlight.

[cameron.personal]

Winchester SX2 Practical MKII (always goes bang, with the correct piston and load this is my 3-gun shotgun).
Winchester 1300 Defender (always goes bang, has been short stroked under stress).
LMT (always goes bang.... 30 times in a row).

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2671/4150795778_ee9b04b700_b.jpg

Semi-auto shotgun? Mmmmm maybe semi auto carbine.

Only the carbines and pistols are actually kept loaded in my house.

Cameron

[ArmedBear]

3-Gun (which is probably the toughest test of a shotguns reliability)

Not hardly. If it dies in 3-Gun, it's not at all reliable.

South American dove shooting is the toughest test of shotguns, and it's where Beretta and Benelli test pre-production models AFAIK. Their production guns are some of the only ones that hold up to the beating, too.

This article is enlightening: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_4_47/ai_71323939/

Note that the few semiautos he recommends are not cheap, and all the others break. Quality break-actions are reliable, but nobody buys a reliable double or O/U like a Browning, Beretta or Perazzi for home defense.

So, you come back to guns like the 870, which, BTW, is used for high-volume dove shooting "loaner" guns. The 1100/1187? They don't last a day. I knew a guy who tried.:)

[Dave McCracken]

Here's my take....

Until fairly recently reliability in autos with a variety of ammo and under stressful conditions was not as common as we'd like it to be.

In the jungle fighting in the Pacific theater, 1941-45, the Model 12 and 97 were highly regarded, but the Model 11 was not quite so fondly remembered.

By the 50s, the A-5s the Brits used in Malaya were better thought of as maintenance and lubes improved.and more so in what was South Africa and Rhodesia in the 60s and 70s.

These days, finding autos that can pass the Ayoob Test (200 rounds of duty ammo glitch free) isn't all that hard.

And while I'm a hard core 870 fan, I freely admit my times with the Saiga on something like a Dozier are better by a hair.

Still, the pumps handle a wider range of ammo, do cost less than autos and are as reliable as a crowbar.

Shoot both until proficient,then take your pick...

[testosterone]

I have a Benelli M1 super 90(HK branded).

I have fired 1500 consecutive shells(clay's in a field with some friends) over two days.

Those are el-cheapo walmart federal #8 low brass trap ammo.

Zero failures.

Likewise 3" shoulder destroyers.

No failures of any kind.

[ArmedBear]

These days, finding autos that can pass the Ayoob Test (200 rounds of duty ammo glitch free) isn't all that hard.


...assuming you start with a clean, properly-oiled gun.

Some modern gas-operated guns can easily shoot 1000 rounds between cleanings, but reliability starts to drop when it gets dirty.

Also, I didn't put enough oil in mine after cleaning snow out of it the other day. It jammed repeatedly, and it's 100% reliable normally. Even a good semiauto can be dependent on being "just so."

A dirty pump will still cycle, unless it's rusted or something really extreme. Some people don't clean the things for years.

[SnakeLogan]

If I could afford it, no doubt I'd buy a Benelli M4. However, I can't, so my HD shotgun is a Super Nova Tactical.

[Warhawk83]

For me, a shotgun is not really a gun I enjoy shooting. I have shot pumps and autos and just honestly, don't like em all that much. I wanted a 12 gauge pump, purely for home defense, got a Mossberg Maverick 88 at academy for $188 IIRC. So instead of having money tied up in something I will shoot maybe twice a year I could train to get better with my handgun, or buy ammo, or whatever.

[bwsmith2850]

Darn, Gunfighter123, by the time you make up your mind which SG to use, the emergency will have passed

One look at that collection and any BG with an IQ above room temp will go bother someone else. The ones that don't certainly won't be coming any farther in.

I have a 870 at home because I got a deal on a police trade in that must have lived in the armory. Not a mark on it. They're dm near indestructible.

There's nothing wrong with a semi auto either. You sound like you're familiar with semi autos in HG & rifles, these are similar in operation. As long as you feed it good factory shells it should run just fine with much faster follow up shots. They do sometimes have digesting oddball cartridges, so do semi rifles & pistols. We're looking at changing to the 11-87 at work and when we tested them we all just loved them.

A nice used semi auto SG is on my 'to buy' list too.

[ShowMe2]

DaveMc,

Although I share your love for the 870, many years ago I attended a 5-day law enforcement shotgun instuctor's course sponsored by the Smith & Wesson Academy that seriously started me thinking about autoloaders.

On the fifth day of training one of the courses of fire was called the "Stress Drill". By the last day of training we were feeling pretty good about ourselves. Virtually the whole class had 870's, and by the fifth day we had done every drill imaginable, shooting close to a thousand rounds of target loads and buckshot. I felt very comfortable in cycling my 870.

The "Stress Drill" consisted of loading and shooting 25 rounds of target loads while the instructor yelled at you. By the 5th day, he knew us all pretty well, and knew exactly what to say to press our individual buttons. All we had to do was keep our guns running by firing on command and loading. Clicking on an empty chamber was definitely a no-no. The instructor knew just whay to say to get the stress level up. It was then the short cycling began...not a lot, but noticeable.

Here was a group of gun strokes (me included), who cycled pump guns all week (and some of us all of our lives), but when the stress level went up...
the short cycling began.

Autoloaders will never take the place of a pump shotgun in patrol cars or HD, but a reliable one eliminates the human factor of manipulating a mechanical object in situations of extreme stress, and IMO that's a good thing.

[Dave McCracken]

Showme, one favorite drill I like on a Wobble trap is a flurry. Two shooters standing side by side take turns loading and firing at clay targets as fast as the trap can reset.

I often have done it with an 870, loading as I go. I can get two shells into an 870 fast enough to beat the trap.

Often the folks I shoot with use pumpguns also. Being the competitive types often seen on ranges, we get kinda frantic/OC about this.

No short shucks. I've had just one in a shotgunning life of 50 years and my arthritis was kicking that day.

My total round count with 870s is north of 50K rounds and may be closer to 100K. I haven't kept track.

I also shot enough 3 gun back in the day to take HOA in a LE league a couple times. No glitches there either.

Of course, I started young and have racked it like I meant it always.

As for autos vs pumps, use what you want but use it until you and the shotgun function as a unit.

BTW, elsewhere on THR I wrote of testing a Saiga. You may find it informative...

[oneounceload]

Dave - we used to do a flurry out West, except you were on your own - every 4 seconds a pair came out from the tower behind you. You had an overturned 55 gallon drum to place your shells on, but I have never seen anyone with a pump do well....or a semi for that matter. The best shooter? shot a SxS and was a veteran of European driven shoots. If you can only load 2 to start, a pump or semi has too many motions, IMO.

JMO, YMMV

[ArmedBear]

4 seconds and from behind you? Hell, that's easy!

Try two machines in front of you, as fast as they will cycle, set low, on X- and Y-axis wobble, and two shooters. Sawhorses with shells lined up, and break-actions.

Shooting for bragging rights, and it was a lost cause. One of the shooters was Susan Sledge ( http://www.usashooting.com/viewRankings.php?id=trapWomen ). That's International Trap, which bears almost no resemblance whatsoever to dumbed-down ATA "trap".

Man, can that woman shoot. Plugged one after another.

[racine]

I'm a devout semi user and have been so for 12 years. I recently bought my son an 870 Express (primarily due to cost) to hunt with. My first experience with shotguns was a 12ga 870 that was rough after about 30 rounds. Before my recent purchase I read several reviews on customer feedback and was VERY surprised to find that several users reported the pump mechanism locking up during use rendering the shotty useless. I'm not talking 1 or 2 but perhaps 10-15 separate reports. This is alarming in that many use this for home self defense. My HD shotty is an 1100 (Competition Master clone assembled by a shotty gunsmith) that has never so much as coughed in 12 years of practice, 3 gun competition, etc.. With the exception of sub 3 dram/low recoil loads of 8 or 9 shot it is 100% reliable. This is just my experience and I am not preaching to go and get a semi. I have been very careful to have factory Remington gunsmiths tune my 1100 and am as confident in it as my Glock sidearms. All this is useless if one doesn't practice with your preferred tool.

[Dave McCracken]

1 oz, Sounds like fun. Betcha some 3 gun shooters could do the loading OK. It does take more moves to load a repeater.

AB, that name is known to me. Bragging rights would be for second place.

Racine, I've fielded a bunch of complaints about the Expresses over the last few years.

Broken down, they fall into the following groups.

Bad ammo.Oft it's Winchester generics or similar steel head cheapos.

Inadequate chamber polishing. 5 minutes with 4/0 steel wool wrapped on a dowel chucked into a drill is the low tech fix.

Ownership by idiots who neither read the manual nor ask anyone about what to do.

People who can run a pump and know what to feed it do not seem to end up with those junky Expresses, rather the good ones.

[jjk308]

Used to be the gas operated autoloaders would jam a lot in wet weather. Most members of the hunt club in Tidewater Virginia I belonged to used to swear by the Browning A5. Until it got dirty out in the woods, then they swore at it.

I suppose the manufacturers are doing better these days but if you learn to shoot it a good pump gun will never fail you.

[eye5600]

Related question. The Tristar Cobra Tactical 12Ga Pump has a return spring that powers the return stroke of the pump. The text implies that after the rearward stroke of the pump, you could release it and the spring would power the forward stroke and put the gun in battery.

What the opinions have you? Obviously, the rearward stroke is going to be harder in order to compress the spring. I would guess the average arm is stronger in pulling toward the body than in pushing away, but I'm still dubious that it's an overall help. What is the mechanism of the short stokes mentioned in posts above, and would this help, or make the problem worse?

Am I dubious just because it's such a cheap gun and would I be more optimistic if it was an expensive gun?

[ArmedBear]

Sounds interesting. I think you'd have to play with the gun and decide what you think.

Note that Remington manages to sell the 870 for under 300 bucks retail, made in USA in a high-tax, union-crony state. A cheap pump can still work.

[ArmedBear]

Dave McC-

The scary thing is that her younger sister showed even more natural talent, but wasn't interested in pursuing it like she did (7 kids in the family and they can all shoot pretty well, along with mom, dad, uncle...).

[geniusiknowit]

My reason for a pump is different than others, I suppose. I like the sound! When someone racks a pump, the sound is very distinctive and I hope that the BG will take off for the hills when he hears it!
This has always bugged the crap out of me. Sure some people may be scared away by the pump action sound, but still others will chuckle to themselves that you just gave away your tactical advantage by giving away your position and BANG you're toast.

Using guns as props to scare bad guys away is a good way to get yourself killed.

The sound of the shotgun being racked may or may not scare off the thug who just climbed in through a window. He may or may not hear it, and if he does hear it, he may or may not recognize what it is.
Whether or not he will think to himself, "I recognize the sound of a shotgun being racked, and I know precisely where that sound came from in this dark house, so now I have the tactical advantage!" is debatable, I suppose. Regardless of what the BG thinks, your round has just been chambered, and you may now fire the weapon. Will the BG locate you and fire at you before you can fire at him? Who knows. Maybe the crackhead has had plenty of tactical training. Maybe not.

I'll rack mine as soon as I grab it. If the BG hears it and skedaddles, great. If not, I'll be ready to fire before I take another step. Oh... that's another thing. My house is really old, and the floor creaks with every step. So unless I get those special boots that let me climb walls, the BG will know roughly where I am without much trouble. I figure I need to move as quickly as possible, and start throwing lead as soon as necessary. My tactical advantage? It won't be stealth. It will be firepower and ferocity.

[farscott]

Why not an auto for me? Well, I had an auto/pump for HD, a Benelli M3 Super 90. It shot just fine until I took it apart. I had a heck of a time getting it back together. Then I had intermittent functioning issues.

Meanwhile, I was shooting an Ithaca M37 for skeet, and I had no problems with it. So the light came on over my head, and I started using an M37 for HD. Sold the Benelli to a buddy who wanted it and thought he could get around the issues I was having. Ended up he was right, so we both ended up happy.

Went to a few shotgun classes and learned that I knew almost nothing about the use of a shotgun for HD. Started practicing with the M37 and have made it to almost acceptable. Broke my M37 and had it repaired. Went to more classes and saw lots of 870s. Started reading here and saw lots of positives for the 870.

Now I use the 870 as even "two left thumbs" me can take it apart, clean it, and get it back together with no issues. About the only simpler guns for me are break actions. But the 870 is a heck of a lot less expensive than the M3 or a decent break action, so I have more of them and more ammo for practice. All in all, the 870 is a better fit for me than the Benelli. For others, the opposite may be true.

[Girodin]

but if you learn to shoot it a good pump gun will never fail you.

I wouldn't say never. Things break. I have seen pumps fail. I would assert that the odds of critical parts breaking in a quality pump gun is probably lower than the likelihood of a jam in an auto loader. Unlikely, however, is very different than never.

[[Pb]]

I have an auto next to my bed. I think the only issue under stress is if it was fired from the hip- mine won't cycle without a shoulder behind it.

[cchurchi]

Here is what I use:

(I really like how this pic turned out)

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3623/dsc01917u.jpg

[Youngster]

I wouldn't say never. Things break. I have seen pumps fail. I would assert that the odds of critical parts breaking in a quality pump gun is probably lower than the likelihood of a jam in an auto loader. Unlikely, however, is very different than never.

I haven't seen too many pumps actually break I've seen more short stroked than semiautos jam by a long shot.

[murdoc rose]

pumps are more traditional and cheaper and are more commonly found in "tactical" configurations. Oh and may I ask what a shotgun course is?

[Gunfighter123]

Oh and may I ask what a shotgun course is?

Normally , it is a "school" where the SG is taught to be used in a self-defense "style" or it is a "course/stage" where you would engage targets at close to mid-range with buckshot or birdshot , and maybe slugs at longer range ---- it seeks to test your ability to reload on "the move" , shoot while kneeling/prone and shoot around/thru doorways/windows etc.

[Girodin]

I have to agree that most people get pumps because they are cheap. Some people might still go with a pump but I have a feeling a lot more people would be using Benelli M4s and the like if they cost $350 instead of $1400. The best autos are expensive.

Oh and may I ask what a shotgun course is?

A shotgun course is in essence a training class where one learns and or practices defensive use of their shotgun. Many of them involve high round counts and you are most often not simply shooting on a square range. Multi day shotgun and carbine courses are more demanding on a weapon than simply firing a couple boxes of shells on a square range.

This link describes one such course (this is not an endorsement per se it is the first one that came up on google). Google shotgun course and you will find many more with descriptions

http://www.chucktaylorasaa.com/shotgun.html

Here is a video of some training at a course. BTW do you think he'd of been as fast with a pump gun?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNFR8t056nY&feature=player_embedded

[jjk308]

Related question. The Tristar Cobra Tactical 12Ga Pump has a return spring that powers the return stroke of the pump. The text implies that after the rearward stroke of the pump, you could release it and the spring would power the forward stroke and put the gun in battery.

What the opinions have you? Obviously, the rearward stroke is going to be harder in order to compress the spring. I would guess the average arm is stronger in pulling toward the body than in pushing away, but I'm still dubious that it's an overall help. What is the mechanism of the short stokes mentioned in posts above, and would this help, or make the problem worse?

Am I dubious just because it's such a cheap gun and would I be more optimistic if it was an expensive gun?
On every pump gun the recoil drives the combined weight of your arm and the op rods and bolt rearward, and that tends to make the opening stroke faster, assuming the gun is broken in and operates smoothly. Usually the gun will open up if you just hold it against your shoulder and pull the trigger without touching the forearm, although it wont stroke all the way.
I fail to see how that return spring will help since at most it makes the closing faster at the expense of a slower opening. You have to learn to fully stroke it every time in both directions regardless. I only shortstroked once. Then I stopped treating the guns too gently and just banged them back and forth eliminating that problem.