[fiddleharp]

Yesterday, I watched a PBS TV show about the life and times of Andrew Jackson. They had some 1812 and Indian War re-enactors firing flintlocks. There were close-up camera shots on the faces of the shooters the moment they pulled the trigger.
Every one of these men shut their eyes!
Now, that can't be good for marksmanship, can it? :eek:
Let's go back a couple of centuries. Having gunpowder flash a few inches in front of your face could not have been a pleasant experience, even if you were Daniel Boone. There were probably a lot of one-eyed guys running around.
Now, let's say the arrival of the percussion cap had been delayed or never happened at all. Would some smart gunsmith have come up with an in-line, hidden pan firing system for flintlock rifle?
It seems to me that this would have been a problem folks would wish to solve. Did they?

[eastbank]

they are reenactors,not hunters or men who used them to defend them selfs. eastbank.

[7X57chilmau]

Decent flintlock shooters don't close their eyes.....

If a succeeding technology had not evolved, likely it would have been improved upon... That's what people do!

J

[wittzo]

That's one reason they developed underhammer guns. The flash is under the rifle and it should lead to more intricate and accurate sights, since the lock is out of the way.

The guys back in the old days were also men's men. They got amputations without even an aspirin..

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

If you shut your eyes, you never will see the flash!. Simple

[Oldnamvet]

Most of the reenactors put waaayyy too much powder in the pan. A properly tuned lock only needs a little bit for very quick ignition.

[Cosmoline]

The flintlock as developed by the world wars of the 18th century was the perfect balance of existing technology. It was very reliable, easy to maintain, and required only rocks and powder to function. That's why the system dominated small arms for 150 years or more. Until more modern industrial factories could be developed to churn out primers there would have been little point in a major alteration. Even then I've found flinters to be equal or superior to caplocks. It wasn't until the self contained, self-primed metallic cartridges developed that the flintlock was really surpassed.

Besides, the flash isn't really a problem. As noted, if properly loaded with a flashole in the proper place there is no need to pour more than a little bit of powder in the pan, and no need to shut your eyes before pulling the trigger.

Having gunpowder flash a few inches in front of your face could not have been a pleasant experience, even if you were Daniel Boone.

I've never minded it. In the winter it helps warm my cheeks. It is actually pleasant. It's not the same as a smokeless powder's high octane pressure blast. It's more like a lick of flame from a campfire. The business of shooting with eyes closed is done by some reenactors. I'm not sure if they're worried about safety because they have no glasses or if the soldiers of the period did it that way. Either way there was a monumental difference between the line-firing of muskets in battle and the precision shooting of a long hunter. I don't think Boone would have been closing his eyes and pulling the trigger.

[Zeke/PA]

I agree with eastbank.
These gentleman are re-enactors and NOT hunters and certainly not precision shooters.

[Mike OTDP]

Wittzo got it right. There were a few underhammer flintlocks, as well as in-line flintlocks of the Werder (I think) design.

And it takes practice to learn to shoot a flint pistol well.

[Joe Demko]

Flint pistols are easier than rifles. My first flintlock was a rifle and there was some serious retraining involved in learning to shoot it as compared to a centerfire rifle. The skillset, for me, was much more similar with pistols.

[unspellable]

I don't know about the lock, but for military use the Minie ball would have been an improvement. The technology of the flintlock era would have allowed the development of the Minie ball if some one had thought of it. (Does Minie have one n or two?)

[BHP FAN]

I could see a clear plexiglass ''blast shield'' just aft of the lock on a ''bull pup'' flintlock...of course, I have been reading a lot of Harry Turtledove's novels,lately...

[Guy de Loimbard]

I have only ever shot a flintlock once, but I didn't even think to close both eyes. I did not have a problem with the flash, and I am a lefty.

[Mike OTDP]

One 'n' in Minie.

[Curator]

Most reenactors are usually smart enough to close their eyes when shooting flintlocks (or percussion too for that matter) in order to protect their vision. This isn't 1812 and their lives do not depend on their marksmanship. At the gun range or hunting all would have eye protection and keep both eyes open. I supervise living history demonstrations at the museum where I work, and I train my reenactors to close their eyes when pulling the trigger. Anyone here ever get a flint chip or a burning powder grain in the eye? I would much rather have a bit of brass cap removed from an eye lid than my eyeball!

[Nicodemus38]

the only way to actually improve the flintlock mechanism would be to develop a material to replace the flint so that it always gives 100 percent ignition. otherwise, there isnt anything to do to it.

[trickshot]

Like others have said, your supposed to keep your eye open if you want to shoot accurately. The flash has never bothered me at all.

Joseph Manton made some flint locks that were self priming and waterproof, and that was an improvement. His locks were also said to be faster.

[4v50 Gary]

I don't see a flash. I see the front sight.

Many soldiers were not taught to aim. Why should they? With linear warfare, you didn't need to aim since the opponent who fought you also stood in densely packed masses. If you didn't hit the man in front, there was one on his left or his right or even behind him.

It was only during the French & Indian War and not the concurrent Seven Years War (of which the F&I is part of) that soldiers were taught to aim at their mark. They had to since the elusive red man were too ignorant (actually, too smart) to fight in the orderly European manner.

Markmen then and now, concentrated on the sight picture. That much hasn't changed since the bow and arrow.

BTW, all this is discussed in Chapter 1 of the book.

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

http://i119.photobucket.com/albums/o127/prizzel/mimframes.gif

[MICHAEL T]

That what I want a DA rapid fire flint lock pistol:D

It tool a little practice but I learn to watch sights and I no longer bother by flash in pan Sort of like a lefty doesn't see the brass flying by when shooting a AR or a M-14

[Stophel]

It's a modern reenactorism. Military reenactors are often instructed to turn their heads away from the gun when firing!!! Somehow, somewhere, somebody came up with this idea, and it got passed around and accepted as "authentic". It ain't.

I NEVER notice the flash in the pan from shooting. ;)

[DrLaw]

As for me, I don't notice the flash or the smoke from the pan, as the smoke from the front totally obliterates what I was looking at just a split second before, the target and sights. :evil:

Of course, I do wear shooting glasses for safety's sake. :)

Actually, I found it real easy to keep my eyes open and concentrate on the sights and target. You get tunnel vision and block out what is happening just in front of your face. Really!

The Doc is out now. :cool:

[Joe Demko]

Unless said reenactors get to wear eye protection, it is not right to bust their balls for closing their eyes and/or turning their heads. Flintlocks have all kinds of potential for eye injury.

[Mike OTDP]

A valid point.

[Cosmoline]

Most reenactors are usually smart enough to close their eyes when shooting flintlocks (or percussion too for that matter) in order to protect their vision.

That's not a problem unique to BP arms. I've had a lot more shrapnel tossed back at me from smokeless firearms than flintlocks. Some of it with enough power to bury into skin. Eye protection is a must for any shooting.

[Jeff82]

Yes. Been to a gun store lately?

[Avenger29]

I'm a part time reenactor as part of my job, and I refuse to shoot without a pair of clear safety glasses and earplugs. I refuse to risk my eyes and ears for any reason whatsoever. Closing the eyes does not provide enough protection.

[xXxplosive]

Obviously most here do not shoot or hunt with a flintlock. I hunt and shoot with both flintlock smoothbores and rifles.......never ever saw the pan touch off, only concentrate on the target.
Stop watching the movies........even the documentarys on TV who have the so called experts live firing can't hit the barn door most of the time and every gun has real poor ignition time..........I just sit and laugh at these bafoons when I catch one on TV........
A properly tuned lock would never ever fire like that..........remember the men on the frontier lived with their guns be it smoothbore or rifle....it meant life or death and whether or not you ate...........

[Bovice]

could flintlock have been improved upon? Maybe a little. But why? It went by the wayside because better things were invented. And those "better things" are junk compared to today.

call the men in the old days "men's men" or whatever, I prefer to keep my eyesight. I don't shoot flintlock and probably won't ever, but if I did I would certainly turn my head when it went off.

[4v50 Gary]

Point of order. While some soldiers did turn their heads away, closed their eyes or both, many English soldiers in the French & Indian War were taught to aim. They had to as they were shooting at marks.

[Mike OTDP]

For the record, I won't shoot ANY black powder firearm without protection. Although since I wear glasses anyway, this is easy to do.

[Loyalist Dave]

Most of the reenactors put waaayyy too much powder in the pan. A properly tuned lock only needs a little bit for very quick ignition.

Most reenactors use military reproductions, they wouldn't have been "tuned" back then, and they use a very large pan, which is supposed to be filled. the musket is not a precision instrument. :D

The flintlock WAS IMPROVED. It was called the Ferguson Rifle. Breech loading, forced the bullet onto the rifling instead of a patched ball, used a standard powder load each time, .62 caliber ball.

LD

[Stophel]

Most of the military reenactors complain of the flash from the NEXT guy's gun, not their own, hence that hideous looking modern contraption, the flash guard.

[xXxplosive]

That is why there is a "Fence" on Flintlocks........to keep the flash, powder and bits of flint moving in an upward motion and away from your face when the gun is fired.......Please.

[Stophel]

"Please"?

The lock is not really in front of your face anyway, and what blast comes out the touch hole, goes straight out the side.

Flash guards (stuck on the end of the pan, generally mounted with the battery screw, and they can make priming rather difficult...) are required in most military reenactor groups so that one man's musket doesn't blow anything at the next man. I'm not certain as to the actual date of flashguards. They MAY have actually been in use in the 19th century, but for most people who do reenacting with flintlocks (meaning Revolutionary and French&Indian Wars), flash guards are definitely not historically correct.

I figure I'm far more likely to get poked in the eye with a tree branch in the woods, than I am to get powder or some crap in my eye from the pan, and since I'm not a soldier, I am not concerned with anybody next to me.

;)

[Loyalist Dave]

..., most people who do reenacting with flintlocks (meaning Revolutionary and French&Indian Wars), flash guards are definitely not historically correct.

Neither is the lack of powder imbedded in cheek on the left side of the face, nor the full set of teeth!. :D I have been spattered by fellows at matches, standing to my left, as well s folks without guards standing in formation. When firing two ranks at once, the fellow firing from the back rank is very very close to the fellow to his right in the front rank..., in body and in lock position.

LD

[Palehorseman]

[I could see a clear plexiglass ''blast shield'' just aft of the lock on a ''bull pup'' flintlock...of course, I have been reading a lot of Harry Turtledove's novels,lately... ]

Guns of The South, AK 's et al hey.

[Shanghai McCoy]

The Hall breechloading flintlock was an improvment of sorts... it loaded from the rear and the flintlock was inline,not off on the side. Pretty cool when you think about it and it pre-dated the Mexican War.

[Stophel]

I've been told by folks who have done so, that one would be well advised to not stand anywhere near someone shooting a Hall rifle. The breech doesn't seal very well.

[4v50 Gary]

The problem with the Ferguson is that it cost four times more than a Brown Bess. Second, as a pre-industrial revolution gun, it required extensive time-consuming hand fitting. Third, because a lot of wood was removed not just for the lock but also for the turning breechplug, the wood stock was weak around the lock. Surviving infantry models here in the US (soldiers', not officers') both have breakage. There was also some gas leakage too and that wasn't solved until the Sharps' Rifle came around (and also the metallic cartridge).

[kwhi43@kc.rr.com]

I've been shooting Flintlocks for over 40 years Never been hurt except when
I had my finger in the pan wiping it out and the hammer fell. Laid my finger
wide open. Flints are SHARPE! In the rain they are a lot more reliable than
any caplocks I own. One thing you have to do is bond with your Flintlock.
Talk to it. Become as one. You old timers know what I'm talking about. Treat
it like a fine lady, which they are.

[Madcap_Magician]

Yeah... the improvement was called the percussion cap! And then they improved upon THAT with the metallic cartridge!

ROFL

[Stophel]

Look up the Pauly cartridge. Who needs percussion caps?

:D

[Joe Demko]

I can't say I've ever talked to a gun nor assigned a gender to one. Flintlocks work reasonably reliably if you want to take the time to learn their quirks. More modern designs have fewer quirks, I'd say.

[wickerbill]

The Halls rifle was an improved flintlock. It was also a breech loader.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1819_Hall_rifle
The rifle below is an early Lehigh Valley style rifle. With 3 grs of 4f in the pan, the ignition is as fast as any caplock rifle I've ever seen and as accurate. The trick to shooting a flintlock is to ignore the flash in the pan.
http://www.myhostedpics.com/images/wickerbill/1000591.jpg
Bill