Used model 64's


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Thaddeus Jones
December 9, 2009, 03:05 PM
Has anyone purchased one of the used model 64's from J&G sales?

Are they pre lock? Do you get a choice? What kind of condition was yours in?

How does it shoot? Was J&G simple to deal with? Thanks so much for the info! TJ

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gunnie
December 9, 2009, 07:21 PM
bought two of'em. one -6, and one -5. the newer one had some rusting under the grips, not major. both mechanicly good, fired little. sights are snub nose quality, put a bomar rib on the -5, slicked up the action, good shooter.

took about a week to get 'em, would do it again without hesitation.

gunnie

wep45
December 9, 2009, 08:52 PM
i bought a S&W model 64-5 NY-1, in very good condition, from J&G sales in august

J&G did a great job of cleaning this revolver before shipping. the chambers, bore and forcing cone were bright and clean. it came with the original wood stocks and has a matte (dull) finish. the lockup and timing are excellant.

the exterior has some scratches and dings (small). these don't concern me. it's not a show piece or collector item. it's a shooter. well balanced and very accurate.

some of the model 64 are pre-lock, some are not. a choice may cost you $10 extra.

J&G Sales are good people to do business with. if you are interested in a certain make /model (i.e. s&w model 64 with 2" barrel) give them a call and ask the representative what they have in stock. many times they will go in the back and see what is on hand for you.

good luck

Thaddeus Jones
December 10, 2009, 09:22 AM
Thanks gentlemen! I will call them today. TJ

gunnie
December 10, 2009, 04:56 PM
sorry about the thread robbery, but i had a twisted thought i just can't keep contained...

NYC, who is {was?} in court trying to collect damages against the surrounding states fire arms dealers for "exporting" their horrible fire arms crime problem into the otherwise harm free people's zone...

sells their used police handguns to ANY surrounding state for THEIR public's consumption. (because you suck and they hate you?)

no hypocricy there!

gunnie

Old Fuff
December 10, 2009, 08:30 PM
You may have a point, and my opinion of New York City's government is much the same as yours; but I believe that Smith & Wesson sold the 64-5/NY-1 model to a number of police department, and it is possible that an over run might end up on the commercial market.

All genuine NYC revolvers would be so marked, and if this was the case I think that J&G would have mentioned it in they're advertising.

zt77
December 11, 2009, 12:15 AM
I got one of their NY-1's. it is very clean, they didn't give me the option but I asked for a pre lock and they said they would get me one. I wish mine would have had the origional wood stocks but instead it had some terrible rubber ones. I put some a hogue monogrip on it. Mine looks like it hasn't even been carried much, but the 'vapor hone' finish is all gone.

McCall911
December 11, 2009, 04:32 AM
I'm always on the lookout for a nice Model 64, but the timing is always wrong. Either my finances aren't too good when they're on sale (thanks, Santa Claus!), or the price is too high when I find one.
Grrr...

Stainz
December 11, 2009, 05:49 AM
In 5/08, I had just sold the last of my Ruger wheelguns when I visited the local 'pusher'. I bought a new 627 Pro - fantastic purchase - had $325 left - bought a security guard trade-in 64-8 - current production - that was unissued - NIB - and I had enough to buy my CFO and myself a 'Happy Meal' afterwards. Let me tell you, new production 64s are also fine - the MIM parts work fine and that IL blemish on the sideplate is just that - a blemish; totally innocuous.

For it's first year, it rode the range bag constantly - and was cleaned regularly. It even 'borrowed' some nice Ahrends, only to revert back to it's OEM UM's Combats when that year was up - not bad grips at all. For a while, Federal SP primers have been difficult to find - I switched to Winchester, making thousands of such primed plinkers in .38. Sadly, I get a few clicks in my lightly sprung .357 Magnum revolvers with them, so I put them up. I left the 64 with a full strength Wolff hammer leaf spring as it was intended as a house gun and dependability was foremost. It has thousands of rounds of plinkers now at it's disposal, so it still 'sneaks away' for range trips.

A 64 is a 64, no matter the build date. They are all +P rated - hit pretty close to POA 10-15yd downrange with Remington R38S12 +P 158gr LHPSWCs. My plinkers - 125gr LRNFP/JHPs - alike hit close enough to drop rebounding steel plates at that distance, too. Sadly, it's a fine SPC revolver, too. Those HKS #10 speedloaders I had work perfectly with it - of course! It is just a SS 10, after all. Great protection - but a fine plinker, too. If you don't have one - you need one!

Stainz

Landric
December 11, 2009, 08:54 AM
TJ, all the square butt guns are pre-lock, pre-MIM. The round butt ones are hit or miss on both counts, I'm not sure if you can request one or the other. I purchased one of them (a 64-5) around the beginning of the year. Its a square butt with forged parts and no IL. It has some dings and scratches, but appears to have been shot little. It was very clean. I've yet to shoot it. If I can ever get some spare cash together it will likely become a project gun of some kind. I'd like to get one of the NY-1s (they are all pre-lock, pre-MIM since NYPD stopped allowing revolvers for new officers in 1993 or 1994, none of them were built after that). Again, cash is always the issue.

Thaddeus Jones
December 11, 2009, 09:09 AM
Thanks Landric!

Stainz - While I appreciate the info, you could not GIVE me a S&W revolver with the internal lock. I disagree that every S&W model 64 is equal. If I could overcome the lock, and I won't, the MIM parts are there. Overlooking those, the new production revolvers are ugly, again IMO. The two piece barrel is crap, and is even being abandoned by S&W according to a memo they sent my dealer.

I spend too much money and time every year making sure my guns are reliable, to waste any money on a handgun with an obvious (to me) flaw. ALL my handguns must be able to be used for serious. It is foolish in the extreme to use one of those IL guns for any serious purpose, IMO.

I have personally seen two lock up at the range, and that is more than enough for me. Having read your pro stance on current production S&W revolvers on all the other boards, let me save you the time and effort of a response by saying the following.

1) I've been buying and shooting S&W revolvers since 1976.

2) The last NEW S&W revolver I purchased is my lock free PC 586-5 L-comp.

3) I've never had a revolver fail to go bang for any reason.

4) I've never had a high primer.

5) I'm not missing out on anything by refusing to consider S&W's current products. I've reviewed their 2009 catalog.

6) I purchased eight LNIB S&W pre lock revolvers this year, and could care less what S&W does. As far as I'm concerned (and several dozen other S&W fans I compete with) S&W went out of business in 2001.

Thanks again for the info! TJ

Guillermo
December 11, 2009, 09:35 AM
it is hard to type because I am standing on my chair cheering for Thadeus and his nicely worded comment.

BTW
what is with all of the bobbed hammers on the 64's at J&G? Is that some department's idea of a "DAO"?

gunnie
December 11, 2009, 01:48 PM
..."Is that some department's idea of a "DAO"? "...

yep, and they MEAN DA...ONLY !! the two 64 RB revolvers i got have a step machined on the hammer rear radius that will hit on the rear of the frame hammer relief cut before the hammer could engage a single action catch.

so even starting the DA stroke and grabbing the hammer at the top to manually engage single action is not possible without changing parts.

gunnie

Guillermo
December 11, 2009, 02:00 PM
Thank you Gunnie,

That adds fifty bucks to the cost of the gun to fix the idiotic modifications. They don't seem like such a deal anymore

StephenT
December 11, 2009, 02:06 PM
Here's a photo of my S&W model 64, picked up recently at a gun show. I paid $399 + tax for mine, but it's in great condition and doesn't have the dreaded Clinton lock.

Can someone please tell me the approximate year of production for serial #D7973XX. It is stamped D.P.D. Thanks a lot!

Old Fuff
December 11, 2009, 08:41 PM
#D7973XX was likely made around 1976-1977. D.P.D. Could be a number of police departments, but Detroit is the most likely. For a $50.00 search fee, S&W will go back and look in their records and then send you an official letter with the complete details.

Old Fuff
December 11, 2009, 09:05 PM
That adds fifty bucks to the cost of the gun to fix the idiotic modifications. They don't seem like such a deal anymore

The modification was far from idiotic. Crooked lawyers were making a fortune convincing big-city juries that an officer had really caused a wrongful death because they had cocked their revolver, and under the stress of the situation accidentally pulled the “hair trigger.” Usually this was pure bull – but the officer had no way to prove what he had or hadn’t done, so it was up to the jury to believe whomever they wanted to believe, and often it wasn’t the officer.

After paying out millions of dollars in judgments – most of which the lawyers got – the cities and federal agencies decided to have issued revolvers modified to double-action only (DAO) which was inexpensive, and stopped the attorneys in their tracks. However the gun had to be – unquestionably - double-action only.

These modified guns are a great buy if you use them as they are, or make further modifications that cost little or nothing. They also make a good platform for a project, if it’s understood that in the end the cost might be higher then an unmodified one of the same kind. True custom guns are seldom inexpensive, but they reflect exactly what the owner wants.

Also a DAO pistol or revolver may give a civilian user some protection against being sued in a civil action following what was a justified shooting. Those bottom-feeding lawyers are still around. :barf:

StephenT
December 11, 2009, 09:53 PM
Thanks Old Fuff, I do appreciate it.

Guillermo
December 11, 2009, 11:17 PM
Old Fuff,

Thank you. Finally, after years of following you, somewhat in awe, you have finally said something wrong. YOU ARE HUMAN!!! :what:

I could start by asking how many DAO revolvers you own but I am pretty sure the answer is zero.

It is just plain wrong to handicap officers with such a gun for the sake of some bean counter somewhere. It is a terrible idea to ensure that all trigger pulls are the longest and heaviest that they can be.

A single action shot is more accurate and easier and it should be against the law to take that more effective shot away from the man standing between the criminal and the citizen.

RDak
December 12, 2009, 02:03 AM
You won't be sorry. I told a couple of guys about those at J&G and they like them alot.

Bobbed hammers but they are nightstand guns for both of them. (I saw both of the guns and they were in good shape and solid mechanically IMHO. I put new springs in them that were at 15 lbs instead of the 16 lbs standard strength and did a little stoning for them. The actions are very nice IMHO.)

ETA: Don't know for sure if you could buy a new hammer and just drop it in though. (I would imagine you could but I'd call S&W first.) I told them to buy new hammers but they didn't mind the bobbed hammers FWIW.

Old Fuff
December 12, 2009, 10:04 AM
Thank you. Finally, after years of following you, somewhat in awe, you have finally said something wrong. YOU ARE HUMAN!!!

I AM NOT HUMAN!!! And I’m never wrong – just sometimes confused… :confused:

I could start by asking how many DAO revolvers you own but I am pretty sure the answer is zero.

Oh gosh, I’ve lost count of the number. There were several home-built Fitz Special Colt’s, and my first S&W model 60 (from the 1st production run) didn’t have a hammer spur very long, and then there were various S&W Safety Hammerless revolvers (O.K., so I’m an addict). There is only one revolver I ever pocket carried that still had a hammer spur (if there was one in the first place) and of all things, it’s a Taurus!

You are correct in that ALL of the revolvers that I might carry or use for serious purposes have had the hammer spurs removed or been rendered DAO, but I expect that if push comes to shove I will use that mode.

Most “social use” of a handgun is conducted at very close range, and happens quickly! On the other hand a well trained double-action shooter can do what ever needs to be done out as far as 50 yards. Bill Jordan removed any doubt I might have had concerning this. The problem with combat-accurate, longer distance shooting is that most people these days don’t know how to do it, and therefore don’t. It is also helpful to have a revolver with a decent action which is totally reliable under any conditions.

It is just plain wrong to handicap officers with such a gun for the sake of some bean counter somewhere. It is a terrible idea to ensure that all trigger pulls are the longest and heaviest that they can be.

For once, bean counters weren’t behind this, lawyers (on both sides in one way or another) were.

A single action shot is more accurate and easier and it should be against the law to take that more effective shot away from the man standing between the criminal and the citizen.

Not necessarily so, and thumb-cocking and precise sight alignment may not be a practical choice under gunfighting conditions. On the other hand it is not difficult to make accurate shots, while using the sights and a double-action trigger – if you understand how to do it. ;)

gunnie
December 12, 2009, 10:36 AM
..." It is a terrible idea to ensure that all trigger pulls are the longest and heaviest that they can be."...

bypassing the political aspects, the as-issued DA was not bad at all. have handled many OEM S&W standard production models with DA pulls considerably heavier. perhaps a little tighter QC required by the PDs on that production run for double action pull weights? same a function of it being both plan "A" and "B". plus, it would have to be light enough for the weakest officer in the department to shoot.

i only modified the one i put the rib on because i wanted a faster toy.

gunnie

Guillermo
December 12, 2009, 01:34 PM
well Fuffmiester, I am truly stunned that you would advocate this modification on a duty gun.

It is my opinion that there is no good reason to modify a double action revolver to be single action only and a LOT of reasons not to. I opine that it is silly to make a gun less versatile and not gain a single practical advantage.


I do admit that I do own one bobbed hammer revolver, a Smith 36 that I traded for. At least it makes SOME sense for a pocket gun to be despurred but certainly not modifying the action to be incapable of shooting SA.

Then comes another shocker
and of all things, it’s a Taurus!

What other secrets do you have? Have a collection of Rohms? :eek:

MrBorland
December 12, 2009, 01:46 PM
I am truly stunned that you would advocate this modification on a duty gun.

It is my opinion that there is no good reason to modify a double action revolver to be single (double?) action only and a LOT of reasons not to.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I gotta say I'm with Old Fuff on this one. And to be honest, while I understand everyone's entitled to an opinion, I don't understand your vehemence (or your disrespect), especially on this particular issue. While many choose to leave the gun as-is, the logic behind rendering defensive revolvers DAO is well-established. Here's some additional reading on the matter.

http://grantcunningham.com/blog_files/the_case_for_dao.html

John Wayne
December 12, 2009, 02:18 PM
If these were 2" or 3" guns I wouldn't have a problem with the bobbed hammer. In a heavy-barreled 4" gun I'd like to have the SA option.

Model 64 is K frame, correct?

RON in PA
December 12, 2009, 03:13 PM
I stopped shooting my DA/SA revolvers SA years ago. The result, my DA accuracy approaches SA accuracy. If you can't shoot a S&W revolver well in DA you haven't practiced enough.

Guillermo
December 12, 2009, 03:14 PM
Mr Boreland,

Old Fuff and I have conversed alot and I seriously doubt that he feels that he has been disrespected. In the past I have hailed him as a the final word on anything revolver. In other words, he knows that I respect him a great deal. I am sorry that the teasing nature that I intended did not go convey to others reading the thread.

As to the subject at hand, I can imagine a scenario where a policeman has a rest, say the hood of a car, and has to take a long shot. I think that making that a more difficult shot is a gigantic mistake.

Landric
December 12, 2009, 03:25 PM
I shoot a lot of IDPA with a revolver in SSR. I'm currently using a S&W 681, a fixed sight .357 L-frame. Mine is DA/SA. However, as is intended by the design, I shoot the huge majority of rounds I fire both in matches and practice DA. Every once in a while I get the idea that a shot is long or a target is so small that I should cock the hammer and fire SA. Without fail that always turns out to be a bad idea. I fire so many rounds DA, that I tend to pull the trigger too hard in SA mode and miss. If I happened to have an L-frame bobbed hammer around, I'd replace my 681 hammer with it. Since I don't, I just have to try and remember not to cock the hammer.

All of my carry revolvers are DAO. I don't much care for exposed hammer spurs, or feel the need to have them. I bought one of the DAO 64s from J&G, and if I can come up with the cash for another while they still have them, I will get another. I really don't see any advantage to SA on a fixed sight .38 Special designed for defense/LE. YMMV.

sheepdog
December 12, 2009, 03:34 PM
...while I do most of my revolver shooting DA, I agree with Guillermo that the SA option should be there...some shots might require the minute-of-grapefruit accuracy that DA just won't get....i.e. the North Hollywood shootout, where the BG had armor and only a head shot would do...I wouldn't police in a city where they demanded DAO be carried...

Brian Dale
December 12, 2009, 03:36 PM
Model 64 is K frame, correct?Yes, and with fixed sights. It's the stainless steel version of the Model 10.

Old Fuff
December 12, 2009, 05:55 PM
Darn!!! I have to keep hitting Guillermo upside the head all the time; and the trouble is that his head is so hard it makes dents in my 2 x 4. :D

Anyway both of us have a right to an opinion, but the real issue here is, should one buy a revolver that’s already been modified – even though the price is a steal? The answer is, “what do you intend to use it for?” For some purposes a DAO conversion does make a lot of sense, but for others it doesn’t.

Concerning the model 64’s under discussion. They are converted, like it or not. To change that would probably cost $50.00 or more for parts, and maybe some additional for gunsmithing labor. This might, or might not make them more expensive then a similar, but unaltered revolver of the same kind. So each potential buyer has to make their own decision.

The other point I was trying to make is that today many people underestimate how accurate double-action shooting can be. Given Guillermo’s example of a head shot at around 25 to 50 yards using the hood of a car as a rest. I wouldn’t hesitate to make that shot with a DAO 4”/mid-frame/.38 or.357 revolver, and I would probably try it with my Detective Special. Doing it successfully with a J-frame S&W or similar Taurus would require a bit of luck… :rolleyes:

But others might not, which explains why people make different choices.

One last point: If one does bob the hammer spur, also convert it to DAO. Yes, I know you can cock the hammer without a spur. The problem is getting it back down again without slipping. One mistake (and I know of several) and you will hear an unintentional BANG!! If I want to keep the single-action mode I’ll also keep the cocking spur. After all there is a reason it’s where it is.

Stainz
December 12, 2009, 05:56 PM
I am always amused at folks and their revolvers at the range - always shooting SA, whether it is DA-capable or not. Invariably, when I offer to let someone 'try' one of my 'new to them' calibers, they will shoot the cylinderful SA - despite my suggestions to try it DA. Oddly, when they do shoot one of mine DA, they are amazed at the accuracy and smoothness. I suggest they try their own in DA - watching them later, they usually go back to SA shooting.

One of the greatest trigger pull evaluations is by loading 4 rounds - leave a couple of empties - and watch how you 'squeeze' that trigger - the empty chambers don't lie! The 10 or 64 and some plinker .38s is a wonderful way to hone one's skills. I am partial to SS - lower/easier maintenance. Everyone needs a 64 (or 10) - and used ones will likely have quite a bit of life left in them.

Stainz

Guillermo
December 12, 2009, 11:44 PM
Old Fuff,

Once again, thank you for being wrong on this issue. I can tear down my Old Fuff alter and snuff out all the candles. :neener:

Don't be too upset, the Old Fuff Dashboard Statue was the reason my car didn't pass inspection. Their excuse was something about having another idol before them...the State :eek:

Old Fuff
December 13, 2009, 12:00 AM
Boy!! you is a pushing me... :eek:

I just may use my supreme powers and order that internal locks be installed in all of ya' guns... :uhoh:

Of course I would keep the keys... :evil:

Stephen A. Camp
December 13, 2009, 12:06 AM
John Wayne: Yes, the Model 64 is built on the K-frame.

Thaddeus Jones: I cannot speak to the current batch J&G may have in but in the past there have been pre-lock Model 64's available. I would call them and for me, the extra charge to pick up a pre-lock would be worth it. I have not done business with these folks in several years but in the past, no problems at all. Friends who have dealt with them more recently had good dealings with them.

Though not (directly, at least) through J&G, I was lucky enough to purchase a couple of Model 64's from a private individual that had been obtained through a similar type sale of used revolvers by a company. I believe that he said that these .38's had been owned by an armored car service or something similar. They were of the NY-1 style. These had a little holster wear but actions were smooth (w/o reducing spring power), no excessive endshake and cylinder lock up was well before the spurless hammer dropped.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/SWModel64NY1rock002.jpg
This used "security guard gun" has turned out to be a favorite shooter. As might be expected from a security company or police "trade-in guns", it had a ding or two. (I call them "honorable battle scars" and removed most of them with a little time using very fine sandpaper and changing out the rubber stocks for an old set of S&W's that I'd refinished years ago.) This one came in the NY-1 configuration. It will stay as it is.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Ammunition/SWModel644intargetGAAmmo001.jpg
On the first range session, I fired 6 slow-fire shots at the emblem above the words, "Qualification Targets" using Georgia-Arms 158-gr. LSWC ammunition. 6 rounds were then at the head, also in slow deliberate fire. I don't recall if the torso shots were done at farther distance or just rapid-fire at various distances. The slow-fire shots were done at about 7 yards or so.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Ammunition/SWM64targ25yd1.jpg
I am no match shooter, but this is plenty accurate enough for my "needs".The revolver show here is capable of both DA and SA but was fired double-action.

I was lucky in that in my early years as a police officer, I was trained to shoot the revolver primarily in double-action by officers who were indeed national-level PPC (Practical Police Competition) shooters. Though not all of my revolvers are DAO ala the NY-1 set up, several are...and by choice.

If "Thaddeus Jones" winds up with a DAO spurless revolver, as "Old Fuff" mentions, it will cost about $50.00 or so for a new spur hammer as well as any extra charges should it require the touches of a gunsmith. Mr. Jones would have to decide if it is worth it or not for him...as mentioned by Old Fuff.

The farthest actual gunfight that I am personally aware of in which a revolver was used DAO and to good effect was right at 60 yards. An M1-Carbine wielding felon had already shot one officer and was trying to kill a friend of mine (police officer) with it when it jammed. While being shot at my friend took cover and then popped out to return fire double-action. When the carbine jammed, my buddy (finally) took his time and double-actioned the felon into a state of "permanent rehabilitation" with his sixth and final round via a then-new Super Vel .357 magnum to the center chest. The officer's revolver was an S&W Model 19. It was capable of both DA and SA fire, but he had been trained primarily in double-action shooting.

Though relatively few in number, the only police negligent discharges I was aware of involved their service revolvers being cocked. None involved suspects being covered and only in one instance was the officer injured. It is my understanding that in NYC (and other places), there definitely were other folks shot, lawsuits filed and DAO-revolvers, the result.

For right at 4 decades now, I have been seeking the perfect handgun, caliber and so forth; I cannot find it. The DAO set-up has much to recommend it in my opinion but it cannot be all things to all people. A smooth double-action in trained hands really is more capable than might initially be expected as is suggested by Stainz in his post.

I have also learned that what is "right" for me may not necessarily be so for another.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Hipowersandhandguns2/SWM64-3004.jpg
I was lucky enough to pick up this lightly-used Model 64 from a private individual at a decent price. It shows a bit of wear and I refinished the S&W stocks. The gun's surface cleaned up nicely.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y171/hipowersandhandguns/Hipowersandhandguns2/SWM64-3003.jpg
After shooting it to see if POA matched POI, I fitted this new S&W spurless DAO hammer to it! Some might think I am making a "mistake" and "am wrong". They are entitled to their opinion. I could not care less and would not be pretentious enough to attempt force-feeding my approaches to them. Double-action is primarily the way I shoot the defensive revolver. Not that he needs it in any form or fashion, but I agree with Old Fuff's assessment of what can be done in trained hands at distance in double-action.

I cannot speak for Thaddeus Jones, but I'd probably buy one of the "hand select" (or two) pre-lock Model 64's, shoot it and see what I thought about it. I'd shoot it for a couple or three range sessions just to be sure of what I liked ... or did not like before doing anything. If the spurless NY-1 style works for him, great. If not, it can be changed to stock configuration easily enough, though probably not without some cost...depending upon Mr. Jones' skill in fitting S&W hammers and whether or not he might already have such a hammer in his parts bin. I wouldn't let that be a deal-breaker though. Speaking only for myself, I really, really enjoy shooting my Model 10's and Model 64's. Despite owning several other make and type handguns, these are the ones I've been shooting the most for the past year or so. The Model 64 is sort of a "vanilla" revolver to many but they just seem to grow on you...at least they do on me.

If Mr. Jones gets his pre-lock Model 64, I hope that he enjoys it for years to come.

Best.

Guillermo
December 13, 2009, 12:50 AM
Internal locks!!! :eek:

How can you disappoint more Old Fuff? :what:

In addition to your collection of Rohms are you a member of Handgun Control? :uhoh:

Have a Hope/Change bumpersticker? :cuss:

How else can the mighty fall? :confused:

This is like learning that Thomas Jefferson was really a Calvinist :eek:

Old Fuff
December 13, 2009, 09:29 AM
Guillermo:


You are like a pesky fly that moves too quickly for an old man to slap… :banghead:

But Stephen’s excellent and well-illustrated post #35 should go a long way toward reducing your extreme ignorance concerning double-action shooting.

That is, if you can read – but enjoy the pictures anyway… :neener: :D

Guillermo
December 13, 2009, 11:15 AM
That is, if you can read – but enjoy the pictures anyway…

thanks Fuffmiester...they are pretty pictures!!! :neener:

As to the very nice post by Stephen, I do stand corrected. It sounds as though some policemen should have their sidearms modified. Instead of screwing up the hammer of a nice Smith it would be more efficient to remove the trigger. (Actually, I know a guy that such a modification is just the thing)

There is nobody that I would trust with a gun that I would not trust with a fully funtioning gun. If these guys can't handle a revolver what is going to happen when they get a striker fire gun as their sidearm? :uhoh:

Old Fuff
December 13, 2009, 11:58 AM
The issue that caused all of this had nothing to do with the competence of police officers, and everything to do with certain bottom-feeding lawyers that found a way to make some easy money. They would file a wrongful death suit against an officer and the law enforcement agency/department that they worked for; claiming (with absolutely no proof) that the officer had cocked his/her revolver and then fired it unintentionally when they touched the "hair trigger."

Far fetched as this is, some (usually urban) juries bought this line of cow chips, and the officer's employer or liability insurance ended up paying out literally millions of bucks. While going to DAO handguns may seem like overkill, it proved to be cheaper then paying out court judgments.

Meanwhile the information and illustrations provided in post #35 should show that officers that were trained and practiced in double-action shooting weren't left helpless - even at longer distances.

Of course not everyone (including you) agrees with this. Fortunately those that don't can buy revolvers with both a single and double action option.

Now are you satisfied??? ;)

Guillermo
December 13, 2009, 01:11 PM
Now are you satisfied???

actually yes.

Your very nicely written post illustrates that there is no practical reason for this modification, only a defense against scum-sucking-shysters (but I repeat myself)

Of course my trusty unmodified Detective Special is on the table as I write this. And it will remain fully funtioning as long as I have the priviledge of owning it.



So Fuffster...when you going to post photos of your Rohm collection? :neener:

Old Fuff
December 13, 2009, 03:18 PM
Of course my trusty unmodified Detective Special is on the table as I write this. And it will remain fully functioning as long as I have the privilege of owning it.

Well you don’t have to act so superior about it. Mine is likely older (older is always better, which is the reason I’m called “Old Fuff”) and in the same condition. ;)

So Fuffster...when you going to post photos of your Rohm collection?

Actually I do have one. A shooting instructor who used it in demonstrations during a class gave it to me…

It remains “as new,” and unfired. :scrutiny: :D

Guillermo
December 13, 2009, 03:26 PM
Your old pencil barrel DS is certainly older than mine. That said, I mentioned that I had the privilege of owning it so I don't think that can be construed as being superior.

This is especially true as I am sure that you can shoot yours better than I can mine.

Old Fuff
December 13, 2009, 04:34 PM
This is especially true as I am sure that you can shoot yours better than I can mine.

Not to worry. After about 122 years of practice you'll be on your way to catching up. :scrutiny:

goodtime
December 13, 2009, 06:54 PM
I got a used 65 (unmodified) from robertsontradingpost.com a couple of years ago, and the double action was incredibly smooth, smoother than my Python (which is the only Python i've tried, so it might not be as smooth as others.) I believe it was, in part, because it was well worn in, but it is still in very good shape. The batch mine came from was sent back to S&W for refurbishing. But that DA action is amazingly smooth. SA is great too. I was thinking of getting a 64 from budsgunshop.com, they have some for cheap. anybody try one of theirs?

Landric
December 13, 2009, 07:17 PM
The ones Bud's have are IL/MIM models. If that doesn't bother you, I'm sure they are fine. I'll stick with the pre-lock, pre MIM guns whenever possible.

Thaddeus Jones
December 15, 2009, 11:27 AM
Mr Camp - Thank you for your post. As with all the posts of yours I read, it was very helpful and most informative. Nice shooting there too!

As a retired deputy, I too was trained to shoot revolvers DA. In fact, thinking about it, I cannot recall the last time I took a single action shot with a revolver.

While I can understand the reluctance of some not to have the option of single action fire, speaking for myself, it is of little consequence. All my shots are made double action. In competition or otherwise. As my eyes begin to fail me, 25 yards is about as long a shot as I take. That is usually at IDPA or ICORE matches.

I've placed my order for one of the remaining NY-1 model 64's. The gentleman assures me it is square butt with no lock. I'm looking forward to recieving it.

Thanks to all who assisted me with their opinions in this thread. This board truly is a wealth of information and experience.

Occassionally I ponder joining other gunboards. Then I "lurk" on them periodically and see that they are made up of rude fanboys and collectors. No old fuffs out there lads. Here we truly have a gathering of shooters, end users and competitors. It shows in the quality of the responses. The only place for handgunners on the web where the "expert commentary" is present in every thread, IMO. :)

The lack of advertising is very nice as well!! TJ

jaysouth
December 17, 2009, 09:24 PM
I bought a 64-5 from a local dealer this week. It has the factory bobbed hammer.

I paid 249.99 plus tax.

If I am not mistaken, these "DAO" 64s on the market came from Brinks Armored Car.

Anyhow, it looks a lot like the 64 4" that I had a smith bob the hammer on about 10 years ago. The older gun is a lot slicker but I might need a backup. I figure that the older 64 and my Dillon 550 will wear out at about the same time. Anybody got a spare Dillon 550 for me to rebuild and put back to back up the current one?

I had the hammer bobbed on a couple of older K frames because it looked cool at the time. Both have turned out to be incredible action shooters. I love to clean up bowling pins and steel plates after glocksters miss their mark.

Thaddeus Jones
February 8, 2010, 11:43 AM
I recieved my J&G DAO model 64 a few weeks back. Weather and work had precluded any shooting till this past weekend.

I must say that I had no real expectations on ordering this revolver. I thought that any pre lock K-frame revolver for under $300 was a must have, and one can never own too many.

I was VERY pleasantly surprised upon recieving mine. It was a square butt 64-5, with a flash chromed hammer and trigger. No MIM!! The factory OEM flash chromed bobbed hammer was the first I've examined in person. Nicely done!

The revolver was dirty, but remarkably free of serious dings or scratches. The trigger guard had a few places that needed smoothing, and the sideplate had two significant scratches that needed blending. Other than that this 64-5 was well cared for indeed.

Mechanically I am still in a state of shock over this 64-5. I have many handguns in my modest herd. The majority are revolvers. I have a few S&W Performance Center revolvers. The trigger on this stock 64-5 rivals my S&W PC revolvers :what: , no I kid you not. I had my girlfriend dry fire my PC 586-5 L-comp, and then dry fire my 64-5. She is a fairly experienced shooter, and could percieve little to no difference!! (She liked the 64-5 because it was shiny and prettier :rolleyes:)

This was one well made and well cared for sixgun. Now, off to the range. That smooth trigger paid off nicely. Under two inch groups at 15 yards were the norm, with all ammo I used.

Remington 125 grain 38+P was particularly accurate, although I felt the flash was a bit much, especially in low light.

I am extremely happy and satisfied with my J&G model 64. I thank you all for your kind advice and opinions. As always you gentlemen were right on the mark! TJ

Elmer
February 8, 2010, 05:06 PM
Old Fuff,

Thank you. Finally, after years of following you, somewhat in awe, you have finally said something wrong. YOU ARE HUMAN!!! :what:

I could start by asking how many DAO revolvers you own but I am pretty sure the answer is zero.

It is just plain wrong to handicap officers with such a gun for the sake of some bean counter somewhere. It is a terrible idea to ensure that all trigger pulls are the longest and heaviest that they can be.

A single action shot is more accurate and easier and it should be against the law to take that more effective shot away from the man standing between the criminal and the citizen.

Well Willie,

Though your point about having the SA ability intact being a good thing has merits, you should understand that many, if not most of the departments that were issuing revolvers during the heyday of the model 64, forbade the use of the gun in single action, even if the gun hadn't been modified. They didn't allow it in the academies, nor during qualifications. Even those that weren't worried about the legal implications, realized that allowing single action use during training, hampered the ability of the recruit to learn the double action stroke. Also, the 2 or 3 pound SA trigger of a good Smith revolver wasn't something you wanted scared young officers pointing at people in the field, (even if it would have been no great loss for many of them if there was a whoops...).

Jubjub
February 8, 2010, 06:45 PM
Summit Gun Broker has the standard 64 with SA capability listed for $275.

http://www.summitgunbroker.com/New_Standard_5.html

John Wayne
February 8, 2010, 09:22 PM
If the guns are all mechanically sound, I think I'd prefer the cheapest version. SS will polish up nicely with a little effort, unlike a blued or nickel gun that has been neglected.

Every pre-MIM/IL K-frame revolver I've shot has had an amazing trigger. Still, for $275 + transfer fees, I think I'd rather spend another $100 or so and get a nice model 65 or 19.

*edit* to say that I've noticed some factory loads in .357 are so anemic that you might as well shoot .38 +P. This makes a good case for the model 64 and 15, especially for the recoil-sensitive.

Elmer
February 15, 2010, 01:43 AM
If the guns are all mechanically sound, I think I'd prefer the cheapest version. SS will polish up nicely with a little effort, unlike a blued or nickel gun that has been neglected.

Every pre-MIM/IL K-frame revolver I've shot has had an amazing trigger. Still, for $275 + transfer fees, I think I'd rather spend another $100 or so and get a nice model 65 or 19.

*edit* to say that I've noticed some factory loads in .357 are so anemic that you might as well shoot .38 +P. This makes a good case for the model 64 and 15, especially for the recoil-sensitive.
The .38's will shoot a little better too, with their shorter, lighter cylinder, the DA is just a little smoother....

joe_security
February 15, 2010, 09:33 AM
My pinned barrel/recessed chamber 4" SB Model 65 is a trusted friend, and I would not part with it in this lifetime. I think it dates to 1981. I shoot at 25-30 feet for SD/HD practice and it just about goes through one hole. Sometimes I change grips here and there but this revolver is a keeper.
I would never think of cocking the hammer for SD/HD. With Safariland Comp2 speedloaders, the reload is fast and smooth. I would wish for a black front sight, but Im not about to change this classic S&W.

gunnie
February 15, 2010, 10:40 AM
..."I would wish for a black front sight, but Im not about to change this classic S&W. "...

just hit the back of the post occasionally with a black sharpie? maybe the back of the rear sight channel, also? sure, anything but a PERMANENT fix. but isn't that what you want? completely gone with an appropriate solvent rinse/spray.

gunnie

Old Fuff
February 15, 2010, 10:44 AM
As an aside:

I will mention that J&G sales recently received a shipment of Smith & Wesson .38 Combat Masterpiece revolvers (model 15 in blue, 67 in stainless). All have been modified to double-action only, and are offered at attractive prices in various conditions.

wlewisiii
February 15, 2010, 11:46 AM
I had been planning on getting one of the J&G guns when a 4" 64-5 showed up at my FLGS for $329. That's higher than the J&G guns but 1) I could trade my Taurus 650 towards it, 2) it's both single & double action & 3) check it out for myself. Shipping & FFL would have evened out the cost as well.

Very good condition - a classic example of carried lots & shot little. (It also shows me how much practice I need as my skills are badly rusted!) It needs a bit of polish & I'd prefer a set of the S&W K Square Rosewood Combat Grips to the Packmayr's on it but other than that, I think I've found my handgun.

The Taurus wasn't bad - it's just that this one is so much better :)

William

Elmer
February 22, 2010, 01:32 AM
I used a girlfriend's dark red nail polish on mine..... low tech but it worked good enough to save my life......

bflobill_69
February 22, 2010, 11:56 AM
Being a former resident of the Peoples Republic of NY, I would have to agree with you assessment Gunnie...

Bflobill69

OldCavSoldier
February 22, 2010, 01:23 PM
These days I use bright red nail polish on the front ramps, over-coated by a layer of clear nail polish for pieces that may be shot in day to somewhat low light conditions. For low light conditions and the pieces I carry then, I use white-out over-coated by the clear nail polish. Works like a champ! At least for me!

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