Shooting other calibers in a Moisin Nagant?


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Patriotme
December 10, 2009, 01:08 PM
I remember reading several years ago that you could shoot .308 (7.62x51mm) in a 30-06 (7.62x63mm) in a pinch. The author stated that the neck of the .308 cartridge would be straightened out and the accuracy would suck but it would work. Of course a semi-auto would not cycle correctly.
Assuming this is correct about shooting a .308 in a 30-06 I have to ask if it would be possible to shoot a .308 (7.62x51) in a Moisin-Nagant since it is 7.62x54mm?
How about shooting the 7.62x54mm in a 30-06 (7.62x63mm)?
Understand that I have no intent to try this but I'm curious if this would be an option in a SHTF type situation.

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shaggy430
December 10, 2009, 01:10 PM
Uh, no. No way. No how. Also, whatever you read before is wrong also. Don't do it.

eight433
December 10, 2009, 01:12 PM
not sure why you would want to. 7.62/54r is one of the cheapest full size rounds out there right now...

Sam1911
December 10, 2009, 01:13 PM
If nothing else (and there is plenty more to consider), the "R" in 7.62x54mmR stands for that big honkin' rim. No way you're going to close the bolt of a gun chambered for the rimless .30-'06 on that rim.

-Sam

Patriotme
December 10, 2009, 01:27 PM
I wasn't planning on trying any of this but having just finished "The Road" I started thinking about not having the proper caliber of ammo. BTW...great book but depressing as hell.
I had forgotten about the rim of the 7.62x54mm. I had a Mosin-Nagant about 20 years ago but it's been a while since I've handled these guns or their ammo.
The .308 in a 30-06 info was actually read in a gun magazine not some forum. I understand that doesn't make it true but I did attach a bit more reliability to the info as it didn't come from some nameless, faceless guy sitting on the internet.
Thanks for the info and again...I wasn't planning on trying this (I don't have the guns for it anyway) but it seemed like an interesting idea if it were possible.

mcdonl
December 10, 2009, 01:30 PM
And... as far as I know the only other round you can chamber in a 30.06 is a .270, but I could be wrong. I could be... VERY wrong.

R.W.Dale
December 10, 2009, 01:34 PM
The .308 in a 30-06 info was actually read in a gun magazine not some forum. I understand that doesn't make it true but I did attach a bit more reliability to the info as it didn't come from some nameless, faceless guy sitting on the internet.


Tom Greasham may disagree with me but in my opinion the source in question has even less credibility than some guy posting from his basement in Buffalo wearing nothing but his BVD's.

I've read so much outright misinformation and opinion padded off as fact in gun rags I no longer read em,

shaggy430
December 10, 2009, 01:35 PM
And... as far as I know the only other round you can chamber in a 30.06 is a .270, but I could be wrong. I could be... VERY wrong.

A .270, .280, .25-06 would all chamber in the 30-06 because they are all based off of it. HOWEVER, you would never want to fire any ammo in any gun except for the round it is chambered for. The results could be disasterous.

jnyork
December 10, 2009, 01:54 PM
Shooting other calibers in a Moisin Nagant?


Dont even think about it. Please. :eek:

ants
December 10, 2009, 01:59 PM
...so much outright misinformation and opinion padded off as fact in gun rags I no longer read 'em.Me neither.

Cosmoline
December 10, 2009, 02:12 PM
The confusion may arise because some Mosins were rechambered to .30'06 by Bannerman back in the first half of the last century when 54R was really hard to come by. These are not considered entirely safe conversions for technical reasons.

Carl N. Brown
December 10, 2009, 02:16 PM
.308 Win .30-06 Spg 7.62 Russian
7.62x51mm 7.62.63mm 7.62x54R
Rim diameter: .473 in. .473 in. .570 in.
Base diameter: .470 " .470 " .489 "
Shoulder dia.: .454 " .441 " .458 "
Case length: 2.015 " 2.494 " 2.050 "


Going by case diameter alone, 7.62 Russian will not fit a .308 or .30-06 chamber.

.308 is way undersized for the 7.62 Russian chamber. Thankfully the Mosin boltface and extractor for a .570 rim should not hold a .308 in position to fire. If it did fire, the case would have to expand a lot and would likely fail to keep gas from escaping back from the chamber.

When a .308 is put in a .30-06 chamber, the .308 case base and tapered body are a close fit, BUT not only is the shoulder of the case nearly half-an-inch short of the shoulder of the firing chamber, the case neck does not enter the neck portion of the firing chamber: the unsupported bullet does, and the shoulder of the casing then has to expand the difference between the case length: 12mm or just short of half an inch. To call this courting disaster is a slight understatement. Yes, the Navy had some M1 Garands with chamber inserts to allow shooting the .308, and yes, some of those chamber inserts fell out and shooters noticed it when they looked at the empties and lived to tell about it. .308 in .30-06 is still a no-no.

And firing a .270 in a .30-06 barrel means a .277" bullet rattling down a barrel with .308 groove and .30 bore diameters, hardly conductive toward velocity or accuracy.

rondog
December 10, 2009, 03:10 PM
Before you try putting the wrong cartridges in any gun "to see if they'll work", I suggest you practice placing your head between your legs and kissing your ass goodbye.

John Wayne
December 10, 2009, 03:23 PM
You might as well stick a 12 gauge shell in a steel pipe and whack it with a hammer. It'd probably be more accurate, and then when it blows up you've only lost arm, instead of an arm and a $90 rifle.

There are some guns that can safely chamber multiple cartridges; the Mosin-Nagant (rifle) is not one of them. Nagant revolvers, however, have been modified to shoot .32 ACP, IIRC.

rcmodel
December 10, 2009, 04:34 PM
25-06 in 30-06 = No. Shoulder is further forward.
.270 in 30-06 = Yes.
.280 in a 30-06 = No. Shoulder is further forward and the case is too long.

.308 in 30-06 = No. Although the extractor might hold the case back and allow the firing pin to hit it, you would have grossly excessive headspace and a very unsafe condition.
If you were down to your last round, and the alternative to your rifle blowing up in your face was worse, it might fire though.

Here is a list of SAAMI unsafe cartride combinations that will fit, but are unsafe.

http://www.saami.org/Unsafe_Combinations.cfm

rc

svaz
December 10, 2009, 04:48 PM
Der iz udder caliber besides 7.62x54R? :scrutiny:

http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/CBSS/smileyvault-cute-big-smiley-static-016.gif

John Wayne
December 10, 2009, 04:50 PM
The SAAMI lists .40 S&W in a 9mm Luger chamber as unsafe to fire, how'd they come up with that one?

mcdonl
December 10, 2009, 05:17 PM
hahaha I guess after my grip attachment post I deserved to get one right :)

I knew that from experience. A budy of mine forgot his 30.06 ammo, and I et him use my .270 because he said it would work, and I knew I would not be next to him when he fired it :)

rondog
December 10, 2009, 05:54 PM
Reminds of the gunstore idiot that told me I could substitute .380acp for 9x18mak.

Erik M
December 10, 2009, 06:58 PM
My brother bought some surplus 7.62x54r attached to stripper clips at the local pawn shop. when we got to the range he took them off the clip and noticed that they did not have a 'rim'. Put them back in the range bag and did some research later on the web and turns out that the pawn shop is selling 7.62x51 surplus ammo thats mislabeled. He called to ask if they knew it was mislabeled and got the f-bomb dropped on him repetedly for questioning their intelligence.

Oh I forgot to mention that the clerk said that the reason they were selling the 7.62x51 (.308) in mislabeled containers is that they tested it in a shop gun and it still fired out of a 91/30, so since lots of people have surplus Mosin's they are selling a mislabeled product hoping to turn a profit.

Steve Marshall
December 10, 2009, 07:17 PM
I would imagine that a .308 WOULD fire in a CRF rifle in 30-06. And worse, probably a .358. You can always take down that retaining wall in your driveway with a few sticks of dynamite. I wouldn't recommend that either. What possible scenario could anyone imagine this to be a good idea? 25-06, 270 and 30-06 have the same shoulder location.

highorder
December 10, 2009, 07:19 PM
My brother bought some surplus 7.62x54r attached to stripper clips at the local pawn shop. when we got to the range he took them off the clip and noticed that they did not have a 'rim'. Put them back in the range bag and did some research later on the web and turns out that the pawn shop is selling 7.62x51 surplus ammo thats mislabeled. He called to ask if they knew it was mislabeled and got the f-bomb dropped on him repetedly for questioning their intelligence.

Oh I forgot to mention that the clerk said that the reason they were selling the 7.62x51 (.308) in mislabeled containers is that they tested it in a shop gun and it still fired out of a 91/30, so since lots of people have surplus Mosin's they are selling a mislabeled product hoping to turn a profit.

We need the name of this shop.

They are going to get someone killed.

Brimic
December 10, 2009, 08:12 PM
http://www.reloadbench.com/ganda.html

http://www.reloadbench.com/photo/tech-c.gif

Firing cases of a different chambering in a rifle is used all the time by reloaders to fire-form brass, but is normally done with reduced charges and cream of wheat filler.

A .308 will not fire in a 7.62x54r chamber, don't even try it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v635/brimic/carts.jpg?t=1260490172

The 5th from the left is 7.62x54r and the 7th is .308. Note the difference in rim and body diameters.

d2wing
December 10, 2009, 08:15 PM
An NCO once told me that Russians could use our ammo, but we could not use theirs. I would never try it. Once I loaded my rifle in the dark and went hunting. I had a back up rifle in a different caliber. My rifle jammed and would not fire. It turns out I grabbed the wrong box of ammo in the dark. I no longer use weapons with similar ammo.

Brimic
December 10, 2009, 09:08 PM
NCO once told me that Russians could use our ammo, but we could not use theirs

I'm betting that a .223 would almost chamber and fire in an AK- the neck of the case should fit in the lead of the barrel far enough to allow the bolt to close while centering the case enough to get a primer strike. After the first shot, I doubt the rifle is going to do anything though:uhoh:

Patriotme
December 11, 2009, 03:05 AM
D2Wing:
I remember hearing the same thing when serving in the Marines in the late 80's.

Avenger29
December 11, 2009, 03:10 AM
An NCO once told me that Russians could use our ammo, but we could not use theirs.

Completely incorrect information.

ccsniper
December 11, 2009, 03:22 AM
A .270, .280, .25-06 would all chamber in the 30-06 because they are all based off of it. HOWEVER, you would never want to fire any ammo in any gun except for the round it is chambered for. The results could be disasterous.

I actually have seen a torture test with a ruger 77 in 30 06 shooting everything from 7/08 to .270. they will chamber, and they will fire. The only problem the gun had was it eventually locked up and no longer chambered ammo.

Ed Harris
December 11, 2009, 08:55 AM
You guys listen to too much barracks Bravo Sierra.
While military specification 7.62 NATO ammunition will fire and function normally as an emergency expedient in the M1 Garand rifle, the BAR and M1919 Browning machinegun (because that was part of its design requirement), using it willy-nilly in sporting firearms is NOT recommended.

As for firing ammunition of ANY other caliber in the 7.62x54R Russian rifles this is not recommended ever. While the NATO round may feed and the Nagant exrtractor hold it against the boltface and fire it, the undersized case will burst in the oversized chamber with extreme risk of injury to the shooter.

What DOES work is to get one of the .32 cal. sub-caliber adapters from The Sportsman's Guide, which enables you to fire .32 ACP or .32 S&W Long ammunition for low noise practice. I have these for my Tula M91/30 and also for my Cdn. Long Branch No. 4 in .303 and they work fine, set the battlesight at 500 yards/meters to strike point of aim at 25 yards. They group about an inch at 25 yards and are almost silent, OK for small game and plinking.

I caution that the adapters they offer for .308 Win. and .30-'06 DID NOT WORK for me, as their dimensional control is poor and the adapters are oversized and won't go into the chambers, and will get stuck if you force them! These gadgets are best for mil-surp rifles with sloppy chambers, not sporting or target rifles.

Ed Harris
December 11, 2009, 09:02 AM
You guys listen to too much barracks Bravo Sierra.
While military specification 7.62 NATO ammunition will fire and function normally as an emergency expedient in the M1 Garand rifle, the BAR and M1919 Browning machinegun (because that was part of its design requirement), using it willy-nilly in sporting firearms is NOT recommended.

As for firing ammunition of ANY other caliber in the 7.62x54R Russian rifles this is not recommended ever. While the NATO round may feed and the Nagant exrtractor hold it against the boltface and fire it, the undersized case will burst in the oversized chamber with extreme risk of injury to the shooter.

What DOES work is to get one of the .32 cal. sub-caliber adapters from The Sportsman's Guide, which enables you to fire .32 ACP or .32 S&W Long ammunition for low noise practice. I have these for my Tula M91/30 and also for my Cdn. Long Branch No. 4 in .303 and they work fine, set the battlesight at 500 yards/meters to strike point of aim at 25 yards. They group about an inch at 25 yards and are almost silent, OK for small game and plinking.

I caution that the adapters they offer for .308 Win. and .30-'06 DID NOT WORK for me, as their dimensional control is poor and the adapters are oversized and won't go into the chambers, and will get stuck if you force them! These gadgets are best for mil-surp rifles with sloppy chambers, not sporting or target rifles.

Ditchtiger
December 11, 2009, 09:54 AM
A .308 will fire in a Mosin, I saw it happen. The guy didn't know he had done it until the case would not come out. After knocking the case out we found it to be a .308, expanded a little bit but uncracked.

wgaynor
December 11, 2009, 11:23 AM
They make single shot cartridge adapters that would get the job done (some call them chamber inserts). Being that their single shots doesn't make them very effective in a SHTF scenario.

John Wayne
December 11, 2009, 12:56 PM
IIRC the "Russians could use our ammo" thing applied to mortars, not small arms. I don't know the exact dimensions but it was something like if our mortars fired 82mm rounds, the Russians were 83mm in diameter. Their rounds wouldn't fit ours, but ours would fit well enough to at least fire in their mortars.

I don't know of any instance where this actually happened though.

desidog
December 11, 2009, 01:29 PM
Kinda like putting a .243win in a .308win...saw a guy do that at the range....the interior of the barrel with a huge gauge in it...the bullet tried to turn sideways 1/2 way down. That was an expensive mistake.

Patriotme
December 12, 2009, 02:51 AM
Thanks to all of you that provided some really good information. I posted this same thread on www.goldismoney.info and got some decent answers too.
So what prompted this thread? I finished reading "The Road" in which the main character is slowly starving and freezing while trying to survive a nuclear winter with his son. They are poorly armed (as are most of the survivors) and as a gun owner the story definately gets you thinking about what works when you are down to your last couple of rounds. "The Road" should be at the theaters sometime over the next year. I'm sure it will provoke a lot of SHTF threads.
For those that provided the great info....thank you.
For those with the useless smartass comments....had you read all of the way through the massive original 6 sentence post you would have seen, "I have no intent to try this." I know....it was 6 sentences. Who has the time to fully read a thread before putting useless snide comments on them.

Avenger29
December 12, 2009, 03:14 AM
We already have far too many SHTF threads on this board. Far too many.

Not trying to be snarky, but a little bit of searching will turn up quite a lot of information.

Your best bet is to have a large stockpile of ammunition of your own, and to own some firearms chambered in common calibers. For example, I stick with 9mm, .30-30, 7.62x54R, .22LR, .223/5.56, 12 guage, .357Mag and .38spcl. I've got my bases covered for the common calibers, I think.

You could, taking this to the extreme, buy an H&R handi rifle or Thompson Center rifle and have a selection of barrels in different calibers. Expensive, but doable. They'd be single shot. There are also various combo packs of these single shot rifles/shotguns...I've seen like 20 gauge, .22 LR combos and I think even 3 caliber combos.

Maverick223
December 12, 2009, 03:32 AM
I think .308Win./7.62NATO would fire in a 7.62x54R just fine, I wouldn't be afraid to fire it one bit...dependent upon a couple of factors...who owned the rifle...and how long the string was. :D

^That'd be a joke kids...please don't try it.

:)

Carl N. Brown
December 13, 2009, 10:30 PM
Brimic (post #23?) has a nic set of photos to illustrate this.
.308 Win .30-06 Spg 7.62 Russian
7.62x51mm 7.62.63mm 7.62x54R
Rim diameter: .473 in. .473 in. .570 in.
Base diameter: .470 " .470 " .489 "
Shoulder dia.: .454 " .441 " .458 "
Case length: 2.015 " 2.494 " 2.050 "
That photo of a .308 casing after firing in a .30-06 chamber ought to make any one stop and think.

The base of a .308 is .019" undersized for a 7.62x54R chamber, and in a high power rifle with pressures in th 40,000 to 50,000 psi range, that is too sloppy.

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