Folding AK stocks (in anticiaption of the Sunset)


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Dionysusigma
November 10, 2003, 03:32 AM
I can't wait for the AWB to end... and in my impatience, I have a question. For a Romanian SAR-1 with no custom work on it, what would be the best kind of folding stock to put on this thing? Options include:

Bulgarian Side-folding
http://www.k-var.com/images/AK-007BFS.jpg
http://www.k-var.com/product.asp?0=270&1=271&3=69

Bulgarian Under-folding
http://www.k-var.com/images/AK-159.jpg
http://www.k-var.com/product.asp?0=270&1=271&3=51

Romanian Side-folding
http://www.k-var.com/images/AK-157.jpg
http://www.k-var.com/product.asp?0=270&1=271&3=52

By this time, I'll also have a side-mounted optic rail (in case this affects anything.)

Thanks!

P. S.: Which rail [edit: mount] would y'all recommend?
http://www.k-var.com/subcatmfgprod.asp?0=207&1=210&2=-1&6=1

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Spieler
November 10, 2003, 07:01 AM
The sunset of the 1994 AWB will have no impact on the 1989 Bush Sr. assault weapon import ban, so you still won't be able to slap a folding stock on an imported rifle. But if you could, the easiest to install would be the E. German (Romanian-copied) side folder. It slides right into the receiver and is secured by the same screw that holds the fixed stock.

goon
November 10, 2003, 07:45 AM
Isn't the '94 AWB the ban that keeps us from getting new hi-caps, folders, bayonet lugs, etc.?
IIRC, the '89 ban is just an import ban. It is what led to the thumbhole stock concept. The current SAR rifles and other AKs, US made FALs, G-3 clones, etc. get around the import thing by being built wiith enough US parts to not be considered imports any more.

Anyhow, I am thinking that one of those nice ACE folders would be cool on an AK-103 clone.:D

Drue
November 10, 2003, 08:12 AM
All of the post '94 ban AKs that are sold in the US with pistol grips have a low enough foreign parts count for them to be considered "American made."

I agree with Spieler that the the EG/Romainian stock is BY FAR the easiest to use on an SAR or any AK that already has a conventional fixed stock. At the rear end of the AK receiver is a metal chunk called the stock (or rear) trunnion which is riveted to the reveiver. The trunnion for a fixed stock rifle has a square hole that the stock fits into and it is held in with the tang screws. The EG/Rom folder fits right into the same trunnion and is held in with machine screws that fit theough the same tang screw holes for the wood screws on the wooden stock.

The other two stocks require that the stock trunnion be changed. This requires removing the existing rivets and riveting in the trunnion for the stock that you are using. The underfolder will require that new rivet holes be drilled in the receiver and a bid hole in the middle for the folder mechanism. The Bulgy side folder will require attachment of the catch as well.


I thought that the SARs had the rail on them already? The Bulgy side folder should work with a standard scope rail. The Rom folds to the left so there would be no problem. The underfolder will probably not clear the rail.

Drue

Dionysusigma
November 10, 2003, 10:23 PM
No, it's got the rail already... I was just wondering which mount y'all would recommend to put on the rail. So both side-folders fold to the side that the rail is on, or to the side that has the safety lever? :confused:

Destructo6
November 10, 2003, 10:37 PM
The down-folder would probably be the most difficult to install. Down-folder receivers usually have a hole and dimples created at the factory.

I like this version, which folds to the left (rail side):

http://akstore.xpsweb.com/pic/AkStockPlastic.jpg

IIRC, the wire side-folder folds to the right.

c_yeager
November 10, 2003, 11:55 PM
Spieler is right. The SAR is fitted with enough amrican made parts to be legally considered an "american made rifle". Anything you can do to a domestic rifle can be done to it.

As far as choosing a stock i agree with Destructo. You want something that folds to the right so that you can still operate the bolt and the underfolder requires an amount of receiver work. You might also want to take a look at the ACE stocks (same as for the AR) these can be made to fold either to the left or right. But, they are expensive. http://www.riflestocks.com/

son of a gun
November 11, 2003, 02:15 AM
What's the legality of putting a folding stock on a universal M1 carbine produced in the USA, does anyone know ?:confused:

Hkmp5sd
November 11, 2003, 11:28 AM
universal M1 carbine produced in the USA
When the ban dies next year, legal.

Drue
November 11, 2003, 07:48 PM
I screwed up. I guess that the mind is the second thing that goes. . .

The Bulgarian (which is a copy of the Russian) side folder folds to the left side of the rifle (side with the scope rail) and the Romanian folds to the RIGHT (side with the ejection port). The Bulgy stock will clear the sight mounting rail itself but probably not any mount attached to it. The Rom goes to the other side so it will not interfere with any scope or mount on the other side. (It may intefere with quick manipulation of the safety/selector.)

Most of the Russian scopes like the PSO or PO or the Kobra red dot sight come assembled with their own mount attached. You would just slide it on to the rail and close the latch. There are a number of seperate mounts to which you can attach the scope or dot sight of your choice. Check out:

http://www.k-var.com/

http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/

IMHO, the Kobra is a fine sight for the AK. It is also inexpensive.

Drue

Drue
November 11, 2003, 08:27 PM
I am not so sure about folding stocks on a Carbine. The law that defined the so called "assault weapons" ( and will hopefully sunset in Sept) lists a number of characteristics ( or "evil features") that define an "assault weapon." A US made rifle may have two of these and on import may have only one. For example an M1A has a detachable magazine and a flash hider, two evil features, but a post ban one may not have a bayonet lug which would be a third and thus make the rifle an assault weapon. An AR can have a detachable mag and a pistol grip (two evil features) but a post ban rifle may not have a bayonet lug or flash hider since either would put over the limit of two and make it an evil assault weapon. An AK can have a pistol grip and a detachable mag ( 2 evil features) if it has enough US parts in it to be considered "US made."

A Universal Carbine has a detachable magazine (1 evil feature) so it is not an assault weapon. If you could arrange a folding stock that did not involve a pistol grip that would be two evil features which would still be OK. A pistol grip would be a third which would be bad.

A USGI Carbine has a detachable mag and a bayonet lug which is two already two so adding any more to a post ban gun would be creating a new assault weapon which is forbidden. HOWEVER, if you had a USGI carbine with it's two evil features in 1994 and had picked up one of the clamp on carbine flash hiders that used to be sold by the crate in gunshows prior the Sept 1994, the effective date of the AW ban, then, according to the ban, you would have a bonafide assault weapon with three evil features and assault weapons that existed at the time of the ban were grandfathered. If your carbine was an "assault weapon" according to the goofy ban when it became effective, you would not be creating a new assault weapon by adding a folding stock.

Drue

goon
November 11, 2003, 09:03 PM
Of course, you could just be using that folding stock to replace a broken folder on your M-1 Carbine that was made before 1994.

OEF_VET
November 11, 2003, 11:08 PM
Universal carbines were all made well before 1994, so they are all 'pre-ban'. If for some reason they were to be considered post-ban, don't forget that they all come with a bayonet lug, which is actually removeable.

If I understand the rules correctly, a Universal M-1 Carbine can have a folding stock mounted on it, regardless if it has a bayonet lug.

Frank

Nick1911
November 11, 2003, 11:18 PM
So does this mean that in next september, when the ban (finally) dies, we will be able to buy high-cap mags and stuff again? I though that the president had already vowed to keep it going?
Thanks
-Nick

son of a gun
November 11, 2003, 11:35 PM
You can buy hi capacity mags now you mean make them or import them ? I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it to expire.

Drue
November 12, 2003, 03:36 AM
The AW ban proscribes the creation of new assault weapons as described by its own goofy criteria. Preban assault weapons remain legal and the law has no effect on weapons not defined as assault weapons.

IIRC, the AW ban's list of evil features includes pistol grip, folding stock, detachable magazine, flash hider (or threaded muzzle that will accept one) bayonet lug and grenade launcher.

The thing about carbines is that ,when the ban went into effect, most did not have more than two of the evil features and were thus not assault weapons and not affected by the law. They are preban by date of manufacture but are not preban assault weapons because they were not assault weapons as defined by the law when it went into effect.

So, if you have a rifle that was not an assault weapon (regardless of the date of manufacture) when the ban went into effect and add enough evil features to make it an assault weapon, you are "creating a new assault weapon" which would be bad. Some examples:

stock USGI Carbine: detachable mag + bayonet lug, 2 features <> AW

commercial or early GI: detachable mag, no bayo lug, 1 feature <> AW

USGI M1A1 Carbine detachable mag, pistol grip folding stock, lug 4 features = AW.

To make things more confused, there were plenty of clamp on flash hiders and barrel bands w/ bayo lugs as well as folding stocks for sale before the ban Some combination of these could have been used to turn harmless Carbines into what would come to be classified as evil assault weapons prior to the ban.

In practical terms, you can more or less do what you want with a Carbine as long as you are prepared to show that it already was an assault weapon at the time the ban became effective.

Drue

Drue
November 12, 2003, 03:57 AM
Actually, the AW ban WILL expire in Sept 2004. The sunset was written into the law when it was passed. The operative question becomes what will happen in the meantime. There are four possibilities:

1) a new law will be passed continuing (or making permanent) the ban as it is

2) a new law will be passed that is worse than the current one

3) a new law will be passed that is better

4) no new law will be passed and the ban goes away :)

Bush has said that he will sign a new law if passed by Congress but he has not campaigned for a new ban. This is probably a good political move for him because it will appeal to people in the middle of the road and the soccer moms. Gun people will be happy if he actively "does nothing" and the ban goes away. Strong anti gunners don't like this position (so what?!) because they realize that without presidential support, any new ban, particularly a worse one, will have a tough time passing, particularly in the House.

Drue

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