How much for a one way ticket to Switzerland?


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Grassman
December 11, 2009, 12:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nf1OgV449g

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PT1911
December 11, 2009, 12:03 PM
yup.... mandatory military training and a requirement to keep a fully automatic weapon in the home at all times... this equals the lowest crime rate in the world...

TimRB
December 11, 2009, 12:07 PM
I never, ever click on links posted without comment.

That said, presuming this is a video gushing about what a paradise Switzerland is for shooters, you should be aware that Switzerland, like much (if not most) of Europe, has gun laws so restrictive and abusive that no American shooter would put up with them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

Tim

Jim Watson
December 11, 2009, 12:08 PM
There have been recent reports of gun control measures in Switzerland.
It is not as free as it used to be.

Grassman
December 11, 2009, 12:13 PM
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world too, would you rather live there? Just sayin...

P90Puma
December 11, 2009, 12:18 PM
Switzerland is one of the 3 countries I could live in, Canada and US being the other two. It's just not easy there for someone born outside of the country.

longdayjake
December 11, 2009, 12:27 PM
Japan has one of the lowest crime rates in the world too, would you rather live there?

That depends of if you consider suicide a crime or not. It may have a low crime rate, but it has the highest suicide rate.

ezypikns
December 11, 2009, 01:20 PM
yup.... mandatory military training and a requirement to keep a fully automatic weapon in the home at all times... this equals the lowest crime rate in the world...

Maybe.

But also remember, they have a remarkably homogenous population there (almost all white Europeans). Add to that the fact that most of the population is very well educated, that taxes are extremely high (as in the rest of Europe) in order to insure universal health care and that even the least wealthy are provided for, and that there is a tremendous respect for the rule of law there, and I think you'd come closer to the REAL reasons for a lower crime rate.

Concievably we could have the same requirements here (mandatory military training and requirement to keep our MG's in our homes). I'll bet within two years there'd be so many stolen and black market automatic weapons out there that you couldn't stir 'em with a stick.

More Americans need to travel and live abroad. Then maybe there wouldn't be so many folks mooning about these "perfect" other countries where you can buy, own, and use firearms with so much more freedom than we have here.

As bad as 2A rights have been trampled on in SOME parts of this country, we STILL have more freedom than any other country in the world.

If someone can prove that there IS such a place, I'd love to hear about it.

McCall911
December 11, 2009, 02:13 PM
Want to live in Switzerland?
Take plenty of money!

http://switzerland.isyours.com/e/residency/index.html

navajo
December 11, 2009, 02:15 PM
I was raised as an army brat. I started school in Japan. My brother graduated high school in Germany.
I had visited Japan three times before I turned 21.
Switzerland, Italy and the entire UK were seen on a boy scout trip.
Last time in Europe I spent three months in France and two in Denmark.
Belgium twice. Austrtalia twice.
Thiland, Singapore and most of the rest of Asia.
Hell, I have been to Iceland!

I have yet to see any other place I would live.

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 11, 2009, 02:27 PM
To carry firearms in public or outdoors (and for an individual who is a member of the militia carrying a firearm other than his Army-issue personal weapons off-duty), a person must have a Waffentragschein (gun carrying permit), which in most cases is issued only to private citizens working in occupations such as security.

Switzerland...or New Jersey?

Doesn't matter, both places have the same carrying permit system!

Changes due to the Schengen treaty
The rules laid out above were changed on 1 December 2008 as Switzerland joined the Schengen treaty; and all member countries must adapt some of their laws to a common standard. Following the draft of the Swiss government for the new Waffengesetz (weapons law), these points will change:
Unlawful possession of guns will be punished.
Gun trade among individuals will require a valid weapon acquisition permit: this is, from a Swiss point of view, a radical restriction that is assumed will undercut private gun trade dramatically.
Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number.
Airsoft guns and imitations of real guns will also be governed by the new law.
Only one weapon may be purchased per weapon acquisition permit: Presumably, this will dry out the market for relatively cheap used guns, including popular collector's items such as Swiss army revolvers from the late 19th/early 20th century.
Weapons acquired from an individual in the last ten years (which did not require a weapon acquisition permit) have to be registered. As a central weapons register was politically unfeasible, the authorities hope to get an overview of the market through this registration requirement.
While the above mentioned "free arms" remain exempt from the weapon acquisition permit, the vendor is required to notify the local arms bureau of the sale.

Signed away a bunch of rights to a big international treaty.

Swiss gun laws are for a very different reason and mindset than those of the USA.


But also remember, they have a remarkably homogenous population there (almost all white Europeans). Add to that the fact that most of the population is very well educated, that taxes are extremely high (as in the rest of Europe) in order to insure universal health care and that even the least wealthy are provided for, and that there is a tremendous respect for the rule of law there, and I think you'd come closer to the REAL reasons for a lower crime rate.

Bingo, great post with ACTUAL reasons for low crime.

ezypikns
December 11, 2009, 02:58 PM
Try to get your CHL or CCW there. Oh, I forgot.....no crime so you don't need one.



Bearing arms in Switzerland

Strict legislation in Switzerland has made it extremely difficult to obtain a license to bear arms, and the trend is moving towards even stricter laws. For information purposes only, 400 people had a license to bear arms in the canton of Geneva in 1998. Only eight "survivors" still have authorization today. Understandable when you realize how little violent crime there is in Switzerland.

For those who wish to try nonetheless, a license to bear arms can be issued to any person who fulfills the conditions for obtaining a purchasing license:

The buyer must provide an official piece of identification
Police clearance from the home country
Demonstrate that he or she needs to bear arms for personal protection or to protect other persons or goods against specific dangers (A detailed letter of interest is required)
Pass an examination on the correct handling of weapons and on the legislation on the use of firearms (NB: the examination takes place in one of the three official languages)
Licenses are issued by the competent authority of the canton of residence for a specific type of firearm and for a maximum of five years. The license is valid throughout Switzerland. Note that you do not require a license to bear arms in order to transport an unloaded weapon for which you have a purchasing license, as long as it can be reasonably justified (e.g.: going to the shooting range). Outside of required travel to the shooting range or to an authorized gun dealer, you need a license to bear arms to transport your weapon even when it is unloaded.

swiftak
December 11, 2009, 03:59 PM
I can walk out my back door and shoot anything I own to my hearts content. I can buy all the ammo I want and store it and all my guns anyway I want. I don't need permits, ID cards or anything else to own my guns, (as many as I want), or the ammo to shoot them. I can own all the primers, powder, and bullets as I want with no one checking up on them. I don't think even the Swiss can say that. I will stay here.

The Lone Haranguer
December 11, 2009, 07:53 PM
These weapons are assigned to the individual in connection with mandatory military service. That is not my idea of freedom. (No offense to Swiss members intended.)

Dumptruck
December 11, 2009, 07:58 PM
I believe Finland is the only Euro country even in the ball park of US gun rights. However, even they fall way short.

gym
December 11, 2009, 08:16 PM
I have a friend there and the cost of living is at least twice what it is here in a high end part of NYC or FL, for the same life style. Other than that I don't know much else other than they seem to be very happy folks.

ezypikns
December 11, 2009, 11:02 PM
I'm not trying to insult anyone else's country. I've done some traveling around the world, and I've seen some really beautiful places. My experiences with the people I've met overseas have been a pleasure as well. And I'm glad that the Swiss people in particular seem to enjoy many freedoms with firearms that others in Europe don't have.

What bothers me is that some Americans seem to believe that there's some firearms Nirvana somewhere else in the world. It just ain't so. We've got more freedom with our firearms here than anywhere else. We need to keep working to expand on them constantly.

Of course, there ARE people who would like to see those freedoms taken away. Which is why we have to guard those freedoms continuously.

Shrevy
December 12, 2009, 12:44 PM
I noticed the guns were chained to the firing line when they were shooting at the range. They were also pointed into a metal cylinder to fire. I assume you cannot take the muzzle out the cylinder and point it in any other direction. I wonder if those are range (government?) provided guns as opposed to those owned by individuals.

GEM
December 12, 2009, 01:04 PM
My daughter spent some time there. A Swiss friend thought that having the rifle was a royal pain. He is not jumping up and down over being in gun heaven.

This type of post usually goes along with the mantra that the Swiss system kept Hitler from invading, when it is also the case that the Swiss cooperated to such an extent that it wasn't worth the effort. Also, some analyses suggest that the threat to destroy industries and transportation assets that supported the German war effort was just as big a part as the guys with rifles on bikes.

Gun cliches really don't aid in the RKBA cause if someone knows the facts.

Also, recently some bad press there about the service guns promoting suicide.

We do have it better in most states in practical terms.

Double Naught Spy
December 12, 2009, 03:32 PM
yup.... mandatory military training and a requirement to keep a fully automatic weapon in the home at all times... this equals the lowest crime rate in the world...

It is lower than ours, but not the lowest...
http://www.nationmaster.com/country/sz-switzerland/cri-crime


Assault victims 1% [17th of 20]
Car thefts 65,571 [8th of 46]
Death penalty > Last executed 1,944 [31st of 55]
Drug offences 49,201 per 100,000 people [5th of 46]
Illicit drugs
a major international financial center vulnerable to the layering and integration stages of money laundering; despite significant legislation and reporting requirements, secrecy rules persist and nonresidents are permitted to conduct business through offshore entities and various intermediaries; transit country for and consumer of South American cocaine, Southwest Asian heroin, and Western European synthetics; domestic cannabis cultivation and limited ecstasy production
Kidnappings 203 kidnappings [12th of 39]
Murders 213 [25th of 49]
Murders with firearms 68 [17th of 36]
Perception of safety > Walking in dark 77% [10th of 15]
Police 14,847 [32nd of 47]
Prisoners 4,982 prisoners [40th of 168]
Prisoners > Per capita 72 per 100,000 people [110th of 164]
Rape victims 0.6% [12th of 20]
Rapes 484 [28th of 50]
Robberies 2,445 [30th of 47]
Software piracy rate 25% [103rd of 107]
Suicide rates in ages 15-24 17.9 per 100,000 people [3rd of 17]
Suicide rates in ages 25-34 18.8 per 100,000 people [6th of 17]
Total crime victims 18.2% [18th of 20]
Total crimes 307,631 [21st of 50]

Shung
December 12, 2009, 05:39 PM
"But also remember, they have a remarkably homogenous population there (almost all white Europeans). "

NOT correct.. we are one of the country in Europe with the most foreigners.. (this only include the legal foreigners) with more than 20% of the population !

Except for carrying matters, there is NO gun laws of Switzerland that I would like to exchange with Vermont or Alaska (no SBR' laws, full auto register not closed for civilians etc)


Unlawful possession of guns will be punished.

This seems normal to me. In Switzerland, the only reason of unlawful possession would be if you were a felon, or a mentally sick person..

Gun trade among individuals will require a valid weapon acquisition permit: this is, from a Swiss point of view, a radical restriction that is assumed will undercut private gun trade dramatically.

That is very true.. for more than 10 years we could buy and sell guns privately without any official paper work (only private contracts in between parties)

Every gun must be marked with a registered serial number.

That is true for news guns.. I think in the US its the same. every gun needs a serial..

but we have yet, not federal register of guns.. What happends is that when you buy a gun, you get a purchase permit from the Canton police, and you can buy 3 guns from the same seller with it. As a matter a fact, there is a Cantonal register.. But for 10 years, privates sells were not registered so there are hundreds of thousands of guns out there that are in a register, but the owner might have changed a lot of times.

Grassman
December 12, 2009, 05:50 PM
I'm coming around, Think I'll get a refund on that ticket and just stay in Texas.:neener:

Shung
December 12, 2009, 06:02 PM
noticed the guns were chained to the firing line when they were shooting at the range.

Not, it's only the removable brass deflector that is chained, this to avoid loosing it or taking it home forgotting about it.

They were also pointed into a metal cylinder to fire. I assume you cannot take the muzzle out the cylinder and point it in any other direction. I wonder if those are range (government?) provided guns as opposed to those owned by individuals

no these cylinders are made to absorb most of the blast and noise, and this to make less noise for the neighbourood. they also capture the bang from the shooter, and this helps the polytronic system to calculate when the bullet was fired away, and to make sure the the bullet hitting the target comes from the good shooter.. if you shoot on your friend next target, the system will not take it in account.

There are not provided guns at the ranges. Every citizen is meant to bring his own issued to shoot.

I can walk out my back door and shoot anything I own to my hearts content. I can buy all the ammo I want and store it and all my guns anyway I want. I don't need permits, ID cards or anything else to own my guns, (as many as I want), or the ammo to shoot them. I can own all the primers, powder, and bullets as I want with no one checking up on them. I don't think even the Swiss can say that. I will stay here.

Except for the 1st sentence, which is obiously not easy in our country due to the size of it and density of population, everything you mentionned is the same here. ;)



To finish. let me say that mandatory military service is good and bad at the same time. It's a good experience and helps for the national cohesion (everybody must go through the same experience) but also is a pain sometimes, since your not a free civilian anymore. You have duties.. the issued gun is cool, but when you own 29 others privately, i can tell you, you don't really care about it anymore..

THE BIG PROBLEM in Switzerland is that our law gunlaws became Federal in 1999, and before that, most cantons were like Vermont.. Concealed carry legal without any kind of permit..

from 1999, to carry, you need a permit, and this permit is very hard to get.. the exams are VERY EASY, but you cannot apply for them as you will... You must proove you are in DANGER in order to have the police approve you... As you can guess, this made the right to carry the PRIVILEGE of some wealthy people who can argue that they are in danger because of the money they have, or the job they have (related to money..) ..

99% of murdered or assaulted people in Switzerland, could never proove that they were in danger prior of their assaults.. and though could never carry a gun for self protection.. and this SUCKS BIG TIME..

I'd give all my gun's but one to have the right to carry again... :(

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