Why Not the 7mm?


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Welding Rod
December 12, 2009, 07:35 PM
When looking at many rifles billed as long distance "tactical" shooters it seems 308, 300 win mag, and 338 Lapua are the common offerings and picks.

Why does there seem to be little love for the 7mm Rem Mag for this application?

Am I missing something or isn't it ballistically superior to those three cartridges? And substanstially superior to the first two?

It certainly should have adequate punch for human use at extreme long long distance, roughly doubling the energy of the 308 at 1,000 yards.

All with reasonable recoil.

I can see some picking a 308 for low recoil, long barrel life, ammo availability at a low cost, handy short action, etc in exchange for reach.

But as far as the other two as an anti-man rifle, what am I missing?

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jlbpa
December 12, 2009, 07:54 PM
best shot I ever witnessed was a remington 700 bdl on a ground hog so far away I couldn't even make it out with naked eye. But I did see the dust and the ground hog flop when the 7mm dusted it.

The_Pretender
December 12, 2009, 08:04 PM
There are many factors to consider when selecting a cartridge. You have to pick your intended purpose, ranges, conditions, personal preference within the set guidelines, etc. etc.

I have no doubt the 7mm mag will put someone on their ass. But when you're talking about 1000 yards, the bullet can be affected by gravity, temperature, moisture and wind a lot more than a heavier grain and better makeup of the larger .30 cals.

Use what you feel most comfortable with. There isn't a right answer to anything, it's not written on a rock somewhere that 7mm mag isn't enough. 300 win mag and .338 Lapua are utizlied by many sniper units around the world. A 300 win with 178g matchgrade ammo will deliver outstanding accuracy at long ranges. Not to mention drop an anvil on something 1000 yards out.

A .338 Lapua will fight wind even better and deliver a mortal blow through layers of clothing and body armor. Something else to consider at that range.

Getting there isn't the problem. I've watched people shoot 800 some yards with .223.

It's what you do when you get there that counts.

Good luck and happy shooting.

edit: typos

Welding Rod
December 12, 2009, 08:24 PM
Isn't speed and BC what beats environmental factors?

SlamFire1
December 12, 2009, 08:42 PM
Isn't speed and BC what beats environmental factors?

Spoken like someone who has never shot an 8 at 1000 yards.

I've shot 6's. :neener:

Snakum
December 12, 2009, 10:46 PM
The 7mm has, at times, been used by various services all over the world as an agency sniper rifle. In fact the US Secret Service used at one time. The ballistics of the hottest 7mm factory loads are superior to everything else short of the .300 Win Mag - which brings a LOT more recoil (and yes ... I've owed both). It shoots flatter, with more energy at all ranges, than anything else under 300 win mag. I am sitting here looking at the numbers for all Remington and Federal factory loads for everything from .270 to .300WSM. The 7mm is king for trajectory and power. And that's why it was one of the best selling rifles for many, many years.

All that said, however, other rounds such as the .308 and especially the 30-06 are for more flexible and have many more weights and bullet types available. Also, the .308 is a very, very accurate round. I read something once about the .308 round and equipment being easier to wring extreme accuracy out of. Dunno if it's true. Anyway, as said, the raw numbers don't always tell the whole story. 7mm kicks harder than the .308 and a little harder than the -06 and recoil can be an issue for some agencies and for some people. 7mm mag ammo is expensive, too.

For me, the 7mm will always be number one. For what I do (deer, bear, varmints, long range paper punching) it serves me perfectly. I am looking at all the numbers tonight because I want a new rifle, and once again the 7mm makes the most sense. So I'm emailing around for another Winchester Model 70 in 7mm mag or a Savage 116 Stainless 7mm mag with the Accustock/Accutrigger and muzzle brake. I'd even take one without the muzzle brake. Me likee 7 mil. :)

ArmedBear
December 12, 2009, 11:03 PM
.308 was designed for guns like the M14. It's based on the ballistics of the old Garand-compatible (weak) .30-06 military rounds. It's not a bad round, but it's sure not the end-all of long-distance sniper rounds, either.

The reason it soldiers on is simple: a huge installed base. It's become a standard. Rounds around 7mm were recommended by diverse experts for the Garand, but the .30-06 was already a standard at the time, and really, 7mm isn't THAT different.

.300 Win Mag and .338 Lapua, OTOH, are chosen specifically for their ballistics, not just because they were lying around in large quantities.

Maverick223
December 12, 2009, 11:17 PM
Why does there seem to be little love for the 7mm Rem Mag for this application?There are several shooters that choose the 7mmRM, it has a better trajectory than the .300WM and bucks the wind just about as good, with nearly as much energy...and it has a good bit less recoil in a lighter rifle.

:)

Bluenote
December 12, 2009, 11:18 PM
When looking at many rifles billed as long distance "tactical" shooters it seems 308, 300 win mag, and 338 Lapua are the common offerings and picks.

Why does there seem to be little love for the 7mm Rem Mag for this application?

Am I missing something or isn't it ballistically superior to those three cartridges? And substanstially superior to the first two?

It certainly should have adequate punch for human use at extreme long long distance, roughly doubling the energy of the 308 at 1,000 yards.

All with reasonable recoil.

I can see some picking a 308 for low recoil, long barrel life, ammo availability at a low cost, handy short action, etc in exchange for reach.

But as far as the other two as an anti-man rifle, what am I missing?
****************************************************


I shoot 7mm mag , and do so at extended distances , it always goes along with the rest of my 'golf bag' at varmint shoots. And I see quite a few other guys showing up with them , so the 'love' is there at least among the varmint crowd. And in the long run one can learn more about long distance shooting under real world field conditions from the varmint crowd than one can from the benchrest competition crowd.

I still keep a .338 mag for the far north , but it may well get sold off as I'm giving serious consideration to a .375 rum I ran across to replace it for the same purpose.

And to each their own but personally I've just never cared much for .308.

Maverick223
December 12, 2009, 11:23 PM
Am I missing something or isn't it ballistically superior to those three cartridges? And substanstially superior to the first two?Yes, you are missing a lot. The .338LM has much better ballistics, but that comes at a much greater cost and a whole lot more recoil energy (= muzzle brake). The .300WM also has a little more energy than the 7mmRM, and bucks the wind a little better, but it also has more recoil and drop. I think the biggest factor is factory match cartridges (as well as bullet selection) for .308cal. is more abundant than for 7mms.

:)

ArmedBear
December 12, 2009, 11:25 PM
Yeah, if cost, recoil, rifle weight and barrel life didn't matter, we could all just shoot .338-378 and just be done with it. Hell, why not .50 BMG?:)

EVERY cartridge is a compromise between multiple competing factors.

Welding Rod
December 12, 2009, 11:32 PM
See Maverick that is where I am confused.... how can the 300 win mag "buck the wind better" if a 7mm RM can shoot an equivalent or higher BC bullet as fast or faster?

Edit - I just learned some things about 338 bullets... there are some ~ 300 grainers available with some incredible BCs. It appears the cartridge can push these around 2,700 FPS or slightly better. Wow... that is something. I was not aware of these very heavy bullets and that the 338 LM had the ability to push them that fast.

rangerruck
December 13, 2009, 12:23 AM
I think as far as long distance paperpunching/target shooting goes, for a long time, there were just better made bullets for other cals, not so much for the 7mm bullet category. But that has change alot in the last 5 years, and you can now get some very nice made 7milly bullets, from the 160's up into the 200 range , I believe. A vld bullet in 7, with a weight of either 180 or 200 grains, has got to have some huge b.c. numbers, and still be fast as heck.
Also , a dude about 2 years ago, shot a world record group at 1000m's, using a wildcat round; a 7mm/300wsm. Basically a 300 wsm case necked down to take a 7mm round. Very nice idea; I am really digging that loading for a wsm; as it is now, the 270 wsm makes up the most ground from it's parent cartridge. The 300 wsm makes up a bit, but a 7 bullet on a 300 wsm case, has to make up some serious speed gains, and do it in a short fat case, that is allways a plus.

Maverick223
December 13, 2009, 12:54 AM
See Maverick that is where I am confused.... how can the 300 win mag "buck the wind better" if a 7mm RM can shoot an equivalent or higher BC bullet as fast or faster?Perhaps I am wrong (just going off of memory), but the .300WM will handle wind a little better than the 7mmRM with the best BC bullets (and there may very well be a 7mm projectile that bests that now). There are some very high BC projectiles for .308cal. cartridges, well over .70 (and nearly .80 with the heaviest of SMKs), I believe that the 7mm is limited to a sub-.70 BC. But the speed of the cartridge still makes it fly a little flatter, at least at practical ranges. The .338LM just beats the snot out of anything sub-.40cal (other than wildcats) due to far superior ballistics, but that comes at great cost.

:)

Uncle Mike
December 13, 2009, 01:23 AM
See Maverick that is where I am confused.... how can the 300 win mag "buck the wind better" if a 7mm RM can shoot an equivalent or higher BC bullet as fast or faster?

There is no replacement for displacement! Thin may be in...but fat's were it's at!

The weight of the projectile wins, between the two.

Utah1
December 13, 2009, 02:17 AM
In 7mm the 180 Berger has a BC of .659, the 175gr SMK .608. I don't think you'll find off the shelf ammo for these rounds, but I'd imagine most shooters would be handloading at this point anyway. With the .30 cal bullets you have to move beyond the 190SMK (BC.533) and up to the larger offerings to get better BCs. 240SMK has a BC of .771. The 210 and 220 SMKs, run in the low .600s. The Berger offerings are low .600s as well. The 208gr AMAX is at .648.

If I'm not mistaken the 240SMK needs a rifle throated for that bullet. I think the military is starting to use this bullet as well in 300WM.

6.5mm, 7mm, 30cal, all can and do shoot great. The recent 1000yd world record group was shot with a 300 Weatherby Mag. However, 6.5-284 loadings are doing well also at that range. I'd think the 7mm is the clear winner over the 308 and the 30-06. You'd have to be using a WM, RUM, or something like that to push the heavy bullets fast enough in a .30.

Maverick223
December 13, 2009, 02:24 AM
If I'm not mistaken the 240SMK needs a rifle throated for that bullet.Not sure, but I don't see why you couldn't just set it back in the case a little farther (but that is one heck of a long projectile). I am currently shooting the 208gr. A-Max, but I have considered giving the 240s a shot, just not sure if it will stabilize properly in my 1 in 11" twist Krieger (I am doubtful, especially with the reduced powder and velocity).

:)

buttrap
December 13, 2009, 08:36 AM
For my two bits what you are missing is with a heavy long range slug they dont do as well as your basic .308 or 30-06 or dont exceed what they can do by enought to worry about all the odd guns they come in. Plus they kick harder pushing the same weight slug as a 06 at about the same speed too.

Jim Watson
December 13, 2009, 08:45 AM
Depends on your application.
The military has got a lot of .308s, some .300 WM, some 338 Lap, some .50 BMG. They are not going to add another caliber to the supply chain for a small theoretical advantage.

The target shooter shoots a lot. The .300 WM used to be the Long Range caliber of choice, if you didn't shoot a .30-338. But recoil mounts up over a day on the range and smart shooters moved to the 6.5x284 or something similar. Some shooters are now working down in the 6mm class; but some others have moved back up to 7mm looking for a new compromise between recoil and ballistics. They aren't shooting the 7mm RM, though. The belted magnum has never been real popular among heavy use shooters/handloaders, they just used .300 WM because that is what was available. Now there are more choices. I have reports on 7mm WSM and a 7x270 WSM wildcat.

ArmedBear
December 13, 2009, 08:48 AM
The weight of the projectile wins, between the two.

To put it in terms that are easy to visualize, stand in a 25 MPH crosswind. Throw a tennis ball as hard as you can. Throw a baseball as hard as you can. Which one will be displaced more by the wind?

Uncle Mike
December 13, 2009, 11:04 AM
Could you imagine a 240 grain 7mm bullwet...? Hey, we can clone sheep now, why not...?

Maverick223
December 13, 2009, 12:27 PM
Could you imagine a 240 grain 7mm bullet...?Put it in a 7mm-08 and it will touch the bottom of the case. :D

ArmedBear
December 13, 2009, 12:37 PM
Could you imagine a 240 grain 7mm bullwet...?

New wildcat: 7mm-378.:D

atblis
December 13, 2009, 01:19 PM
7 mm does have a following and is increasing. 7mm WSM. Belts are to be avoided.

Welding Rod
December 13, 2009, 01:21 PM
What is wrong with belts?

Maverick223
December 13, 2009, 01:51 PM
What is wrong with belts?Nothing, they can be just as accurate and they help hold up your pants to boot. :D

ArmedBear
December 13, 2009, 02:27 PM
Belts certainly do spin my fan.

atblis
December 13, 2009, 04:00 PM
Given the choice between having a belt and not a having belt, you'd actually prefer having the belt (other things being equal of course)?

Erik M
December 13, 2009, 04:32 PM
My brother has a Remington model 710 in 7mm and loves the power it has. He has it in his head that a Model 700 SPS in .308 will shoot tighter groups past 100 yards so he has one on layaway at the loacl shop as a Christmas present. I have no knowledge on the subject so I dont argue with him :D The more guns we own the better.

I cant think of any negatives that 7mm has, except other than bull Elk its overkill for most game in my region.

Redneck with a 40
December 13, 2009, 04:40 PM
I haven't shot a 7mm mag, but I have fired a 30-06, its borderline for me on recoil. I do own a .308 and its my favorite, 10% less recoil than the 30-06, very accurate, and capable of taking any North American big game, short of a grizz or brownie. I use my rifle for target shooting anyway, 300 yards, .308 is great for this.

Maverick223
December 13, 2009, 07:20 PM
Given the choice between having a belt and not a having belt, you'd actually prefer having the belt (other things being equal of course)?I couldn't care less (and use both belted and non-belted cartridges), I would be much more concerned about whether I had a good supply of brass, good selection of bullets, and good ballistics than whether or not it has a belt. It doesn't affect accuracy and if it affects reloading I haven't been able to discern a difference (but I only neck size all but my semi loads).

I haven't shot a 7mm mag, but I have fired a 30-06, its borderline for me on recoil.It is not much above the '06, and can be slightly less (or so it seems) than an '06 with hot handloads, of course the rifle also generally weighs a bit more so that contributes to the moderate recoil. It is quite a bit less than the .300WM though.

:)

Bluenote
December 13, 2009, 08:35 PM
It is not much above the '06, and can be slightly less (or so it seems) than an '06 with hot handloads, of course the rifle also generally weighs a bit more so that contributes to the moderate recoil. It is quite a bit less than the .300WM though.

***************************************************


.30-06...150 grain Nosler B-Tip 2885 feet a second ....2800 ft lbs. ( 24 inch Bartlein barrel , rem 700 action)


7mm mag 150 grain Sierra.........3100 plus out of the 24 inch , now 3215 fps out of a Shilen 26 inch ( 77 grains H870) 3200 ft lbs plus out of the 24 barrel ( Model 70 XTR action)


A bit more recoil than .30-06 but guess which has more drop at extended ranges? And the difference in recoil ( perceptually )speakingis sort of like the difference between being pushed forcefully and being rapped in the shoulder.........simplistically stated.


And the .308 isn't even remotely in the same league ballistically , the -06 carries one solitary benefit , that of being able to use a heavier slug , but velocity degradation and drop factors negate that advantage for long range shooting. Keep in mind that to get the most out of 7mm mag you want a 26 inch on it.

The above example comes from two rifles I owned , guess which one is still with me? Don't get me wrong here I *do* like .30-06 , but 7mm mag has done more for me more reliably and efficiently over the years.

I also shoot .338 mag , though I may be going to a .375 rum for far north work , and for me .338 Lapua doesn't offer enough advantage over .338 mag to be worth the switch.

Bluenote
December 13, 2009, 08:54 PM
For my two bits what you are missing is with a heavy long range slug they dont do as well as your basic .308 or 30-06 or dont exceed what they can do by enought to worry about all the odd guns they come in. Plus they kick harder pushing the same weight slug as a 06 at about the same speed too.
*******************************


You're in drastic error. .308 and -06 don't even come close to pushing the same weight slug as fast as 7mm mag. Argue if you wish but I've owned all three and handloaded for them and chronographed them.

And 'odd guns'? What's that about? Hows a Model 70 ,a Savage a Rem 700 any odder when chambered for 7mm mag than it is in .308 or -06?



B.

Maverick223
December 13, 2009, 09:11 PM
A bit more recoil than .30-06 but guess which has more drop at extended ranges? And the difference in recoil ( perceptually )speakingis sort of like the difference between being pushed forcefully and being rapped in the shoulder.........simplistically stated.Both are fairly quick recoiling (at least to me), but both are easily manageable IMO. Also I don't know why you are comparing energy and velocity, because neither directly correlate with the recoil (there are several other important factors, primarily weight of firearm, weight of projectile, powder charge, muzzle devices, stock design, et cetera), and after checking the numbers the .30-06 can have greater recoil than the 7mmRM depending upon loading (with no atypical loadings).

:)

Hammerhead6814
December 13, 2009, 09:21 PM
Because we have the .308 Winchester and .30-06. The Perfection and the Pinnacle (respectively) of .30 caliber cartridges.

Anyone who says otherwise needs to talk to Vietnamese and Afgan survivors for the M14, and German survivors of the M1 Garand. Oh wait, they're aren't any. :evil:

Bluenote
December 14, 2009, 08:22 AM
Both are fairly quick recoiling (at least to me), but both are easily manageable IMO. Also I don't know why you are comparing energy and velocity, because neither directly correlate with the recoil (there are several other important factors, primarily weight of firearm, weight of projectile, powder charge, muzzle devices, stock design, et cetera), and after checking the numbers the .30-06 can have greater recoil than the 7mmRM depending upon loading (with no atypical loadings).
*******************************************


Because given the same weight in the rifles more velocity and muzzle energy will in the general sense equate to more recoil at the opposite end of the rifle.

These discussions are rather amusing in that folks will surface within them whom will vociferously defend a given caliber as the 'be all end all' , when of course there is no such animal.

It's the old 'horses for courses' factor , for *me* 7mm mag has performed better over the decades than .30-06 and certainly better than .308 , shooting flatter and performing better at longer ranges.

Bluenote
December 14, 2009, 08:26 AM
Because we have the .308 Winchester and .30-06. The Perfection and the Pinnacle (respectively) of .30 caliber cartridges.

Anyone who says otherwise needs to talk to Vietnamese and Afgan survivors for the M14, and German survivors of the M1 Garand. Oh wait, they're aren't any.
*********************************************


Complete and total strawman arguement , there are plenty of survivors in all those cases. And in each of those cases it would have much to do with the basic fact that they were the standardised military calibers.

cfendley
December 14, 2009, 08:48 AM
7 mm does have a following and is increasing. 7mm WSM. Belts are to be avoided.
Probably the most accurate out of the box rifle I've ever seen is my A-Blot stalker in 7mmWSM. I wouldn't think it either since its a pencil barrel lightweight rifle. Great hunting round. Nearly duplicate 7 rem mag with the 140 and 150 grain bullets and with a handy short action rifle. In my experience with it I'm not sure why this round hasn't gained more popularity.

Uncle Mike
December 14, 2009, 09:38 AM
I'm not sure why this round hasn't gained more popularity

Tell us why this round(7mmWSM) is so good....please.

What does the 7WSM offer over, say the 7mm REM.MAG. .....? Advantages....?

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 14, 2009, 10:41 AM
Am I missing something

You're not missing anything, and the answer is inertia that the .308 has.

6.5mm and 7mm rounds, with the available bullets, are clearly superior to .30 cals for looooong distances (short of going with a round that beats the hell out of you and burns your barrel up). Tactical / long-range rifles should all be in .260 Rem, not .308 win. No question about it. With a 6.5-284, 6.5creedmore, 7mm-08, etc., thrown in here and there for good measure.

Knocks on the 7mm rem mags are belt bulge, high recoil/powder expense, and lack of outstanding brass (IINM). But it's still a very good long range round for most people.

But inertia is what keeps the .308 win at the top for long range.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 14, 2009, 10:45 AM
Uncle Mike, only thing I can think of is belt bulge.

Grey Morel
December 14, 2009, 10:57 AM
The only problem with 7mmRM for long distance is factory ammo. There is no "match ammo" for this caliber. That means rolling your own.

The Secret Service, during the time they employed it, used Hunting Shack (HSM) factory ammunition with good results. This load is not too common, but it is available if you look around.

Mel, over at Sniper Central, has a good writeup on the 7mmRM for long distance shooting.

Uncle Mike
December 14, 2009, 11:06 AM
There is no replacement for displacement! Thin may be in...but fat's were it's at!

The weight of the projectile wins, between the two.

Again...I say!

Agreed Tad, it's not so much some extraordinary amount of accuracy achieved at distance, but what can be accomplished once the projectile reaches there.

Tests in the 50's clearly showed that the 6mm and 7mm diameter projectiles were superior to the 30's as for long distance accuracy, but these projectiles did not have the a$$, if you will, inertia, momentum to get the job done once they arrived on target, as far as what the military was after.

With all the momentous hype over ballistic coefficient now days it's a wonder we all don't shoot anything but the 6.5's.

Franco
December 14, 2009, 11:32 AM
In the "for what it's worth department," I have a Ruger M77 7mm mag with a Leupold 3-9 sighted in at 200yds (probably the longest shot necessary as I hunt in W PA). It's very accurate and deadly but the recoil is pretty uncomfortable so I don't shoot it much any more.

Pat4x4
December 14, 2009, 11:39 AM
My 7mag is my favorite Gun.. I love the round, I love the recoil.....:D

Uncle Mike
December 14, 2009, 11:49 AM
Uncle Mike, only thing I can think of is belt bulge.

I have that same problem...belt bulge!

Oh yes, the dreaded belted cartridge, while belt bulge may effect the serious reloader/ competition shooter, the average woods hunter wont suffer from it.

Still there is something about head spacing off the shoulder I prefer better than the same off of the belt.

The point I was trying to extract is that, the only advantage the 7WSM or the 7SAUM has over the 7mmREM.MAG. is that they head space off the shoulder rather than the belt.

Deleted

atblis
December 14, 2009, 11:53 AM
This thread is not about Joe Bob deer slayer. Go read the original question.

Uncle Mike
December 14, 2009, 12:02 PM
your right...I was in too big a hurry, that post was for the 'other' 7mm question.

Thank you, your a kind feller'.

USSR
December 14, 2009, 12:13 PM
Belts are to be avoided.

+1. I have shot in 1,000 yard competition for the past 7 years now, and I can honestly say, I have never seen someone come to the line with a belted magnum. Also, 7mm and .30 caliber rifles (other than the .308, which has it's own special class, and the occasional .284 Win.) are rarely seen. The long range competion field consists almost entirely of 6mm and 6.5mm rifles. Hey, why beat yourself up when you can shoot flatter with less recoil.

Don

jkingrph
December 14, 2009, 12:30 PM
I like my 7mm, 7x57 that is!

Maverick223
December 14, 2009, 12:45 PM
Because given the same weight in the rifles more velocity and muzzle energy will in the general sense equate to more recoil at the opposite end of the rifle.

These discussions are rather amusing in that folks will surface within them whom will vociferously defend a given caliber as the 'be all end all' , when of course there is no such animal. As I mentioned earlier, you are assuming that a lot of factors are equal (firearm, projectile, and powder charge weights as well as the stock design)...so I tell ye again they are darn close in the average rifle. Also, I am not defending the .30-06, just using it for comparison as someone inquired about recoil and mentioned the '06. I believe the 7mmRM holds a pretty good advantage when used for long range paper or social work.That said, I don't find any magnum necessary for 95% of hunting in NA, the added cost comes with little or no added benefit, and the 7mmRM only fits 1% of the remainder because practically speaking the only advantage over a .30-06 or .280 is additional range.

:)

cfendley
December 14, 2009, 01:01 PM
Tell us why this round(7mmWSM) is so good....please.

What does the 7WSM offer over, say the 7mm REM.MAG. .....? Advantages....?
It's in a short action, handy rifle and many claim more ridged short actions tend to be more accurate although that's not one of my reasons. I get the same velocity from 140 grain bullets with less powder so it's more efficient to shoot.

Welding Rod
December 14, 2009, 05:08 PM
+1. I have shot in 1,000 yard competition for the past 7 years now, and I can honestly say, I have never seen someone come to the line with a belted magnum. Also, 7mm and .30 caliber rifles (other than the .308, which has it's own special class, and the occasional .284 Win.) are rarely seen. The long range competion field consists almost entirely of 6mm and 6.5mm rifles. Hey, why beat yourself up when you can shoot flatter with less recoil.

Don
May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use, not target shooting (or game animals).

Jim Watson
December 14, 2009, 07:09 PM
A belt does not make it hit harder, either. The belted magnums are still serviceable and selling well to hunters, but they are on the way out as new kit for either target shooters or mankillers, as witness the .338 Lapua and .408 Chey-Tac.

I have reliable reports of 7mm use in Long Range shooting, I believe the current F-class champion shoots one on the WSM case.

jbech123
December 14, 2009, 07:35 PM
With all the momentous hype over ballistic coefficient now days it's a wonder we all don't shoot anything but the 6.5's

Most serious long range shooters these days do actually shoot 6 or 6.5....
With all the gimmicks and such in the shooting world that are hype, BC's are actually scientific fact.

USSR
December 14, 2009, 07:39 PM
May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use...

Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

Don

Maverick223
December 14, 2009, 08:53 PM
I have reliable reports of 7mm use in Long Range shooting, I believe the current F-class champion shoots one on the WSM case.I am pretty certain that you are correct and it was earlier this year.

:)

Bluenote
December 14, 2009, 09:03 PM
As I mentioned earlier, you are assuming that a lot of factors are equal (firearm, projectile, and powder charge weights as well as the stock design)...so I tell ye again they are darn close in the average rifle. Also, I am not defending the .30-06, just using it for comparison as someone inquired about recoil and mentioned the '06. I believe the 7mmRM holds a pretty good advantage when used for long range paper or social work.That said, I don't find any magnum necessary for 95% of hunting in NA, the added cost comes with little or no added benefit, and the 7mmRM only fits 1% of the remainder because practically speaking the only advantage over a .30-06 or .280 is additional range.

****************************************************


I *never* assume anything as regards firearms. And I personally find a very minor difference in recoil between the two calibers. In addition and over a period of several decades 7mm mag has consistently performed better for me at extended ranges on a wide variety of game animals , some of them notably tough animals than has .30-06 or .308. YMMV in this factor. And I'm admittedly a bit of an oddball about rifles and calibers , but two calibers I consistently keep around are 7mm mag and .257 roberts.

Others come and go , though I very seldom sell off dies for any caliber , still have my dies and a slew of cases for .220 swift though I haven't owned one in years ( as an example).

And in the last analysis the majority of quality bolt rifles are more capable than the majority of shooters anyway.

And I freely admit that should I run across the right -06 I'd be highly likely to purchase yet another one ,.308 not so much , though I was very close to being seduced recently at a gun show by a really sweet VCorp in .308.

Two that will stay forever and likely be inherited by my kids will be my much loved Shilen barreled Sako 75 in .257 roberts and the Model 70 ( xtr) based 7mm mag ( Jewell trigger ,Shilen 26 in etc.etc.).

It looks like I'll be moving back to the Far North , both those will go with me , as will the ancient 336 Marlin in .30-30 that I've had for 35 plus years , the Panda actioned 6 br is gone , the big bores (.338 mag and .45-70) will be gone soon in favor of a .375 rum and the .243s and the .257 mag will be gone soon.

I can only pack so many in and feed them in a bush environment , and insofar as it goes I know a couple of guys up there who have gotten along for better than two decades with an Enfield in .303 british ( wouldn't be my choice but he does fine with it) and a another guy who has gotten along with a .22 lr Ruger semi auto pistol and a .375 H and H.

The auto pistols will get sold off too , will keep the .357 mag Security Six I've had for thirty years and both Redhawks ( 7.5 and custom 3.25) , shotguns will be limited to an ancient Fox double in 20 and a Mossberg 500 with 18.5 , 20 inch slug barrel and a 26 modified.

Bluenote
December 14, 2009, 09:07 PM
Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

Don
******************************


This too is a strawman arguement , there are a wide variety of calibers that the same can be said about.

Hell .45-70 has better than twice the time period of 'ballistics data' behind it and once upon a time was a 'military caliber' , this is not to say that it's superior for the stated purpose.

Casefull
December 15, 2009, 09:13 PM
I hunted elk and deer for years with a 7 mag. It is a rem 700 and incredible accurate. Then I got the itch for a custom rifle. I had one built on a rem action in 300 wm. I suppose for the same reason I got the 7 mag over a 30 06. They are all more than is needed to take large game. The 7 mag is not as efficient with powder because of the small bore.

USSR
December 15, 2009, 10:08 PM
Hell .45-70 has better than twice the time period of 'ballistics data' behind it and once upon a time was a 'military caliber'...

The key word is "was". When you are talking about military or LE use, you don't use what used to be the norm, you use the current flavor.

Don

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 12:11 AM
The key word is "was". When you are talking about military or LE use, you don't use what used to be the norm, you use the current flavor.

Don
*********************

No , the KEY point is that making the claim that a given caliber carries more validity than another caliber because " there's X amount of years of ballistics data behind it" is a strawman arguement. And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

And within the context of this discussion it comes down to ( as I previously stated) a 'horses for courses' factor , people who think that any one specific caliber or rifle is the 'best at everything' are deluding themselves.

Maverick223
December 16, 2009, 01:15 AM
And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.That isn't what the OP said in the opening post, I don't believe that there are many civilians that have a need for an "long-range anti-man/personnel" rifle (SWAT snipers are a very small percentage and typically engage targets from a short-moderate range to ensure a kill with no collateral damage)...so unless the OP directs otherwise we ARE discussing military arms.

:)

blackops
December 16, 2009, 02:41 AM
When the military prefers a round there is going to be more available options for that caliber simple. When these manufacturers are getting millions of dollars for certain calibers from contracts for the military they are going to invest more money into them. The 7mm is a better round, but as far as carry load and amount of powder to push that bullet at a given range the 308 is better and cheaper. Thus the reasoning for all of these options of bullets for the 308. Anyways just my opinion on it.

USSR
December 16, 2009, 08:44 AM
And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me. Gee, is that another "strawman arguement"? The fact of the matter is, the U.S. military sets the table and LE personnel follow it's lead, and the manufacturers cash in by offering rifles such as my FN SPR to civilians.

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/FNSPRnew1.jpg

And, if you don't like what they offer, do as I did and have your own custom rifle built. Here is my .30-06 Tactical Rifle.

Don

http://ussr.clarityconnect.com/Win06t1.jpg

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 09:39 AM
Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me. Gee, is that another "strawman arguement"? The fact of the matter is, the U.S. military sets the table and LE personnel follow it's lead, and the manufacturers cash in by offering rifles such as my FN SPR to civilians.
************


For crying out loud USSR ( and you too Maverick) , the original question was basically 'why no love for the 7mm mag as a long range anti-personell round.' NOT what you refer to in the above , so quite frankly USSR you can ashcan your semi snide rhetoric within the above , because YES it is another 'strawman' , and elitist garbage to boot.

And how is the fact that FN and others offer various tactical rifles to the public even germane to this discussion? Or for that matter the fact that any one of us who is competent can build our own? It proves WHAT exactly?

And what we're all supposed to march in lockstep rank behind YOUR opinions along with military and LE opinion/practice?


Here's what the original question was ( paraphrased) " why isn't the 7mm mag used more as a long range round?" I believe that question has been answered several times , I also believe that it's been highlighted exactly WHY 7mm mag is a better caliber for extended distances , which is a FACT whether some 'caliber elitist' such as yourself wishes to acknowledge it or not , don't bother argueing the point as I've OWNED and loaded for all three and shot them in the field on a variety of game , I'm an old man I don't have time to deal with anything other than realities.

As for the semi-orders on 'what we're discussing' , don't bother ordering me about in an internet forum oriented towards entertaining discussion , you'll just frustrate yourself when I don't follow your orders.

As far as the original point , the reasons .308 is so common have been highlighted ,'Blackops" put it fairly well but missed one corollary point , the availability of various bullet weights in .30 cal has a great deal to do with how many various .30 caliber chamberings there are out there.

As for which is the better long distance from a pure shooting standpoint , 7mm mag is inargueably better , .308 is just the standardised round.

And if someone want to get all buttchapped because I said that , I really don't much care. Like I previously stated I've shot all three and loaded for them , I *like* 7mm and -06 , .308 not so much though I could live with it in the right rifle.

And guess what I *don't* like .223 , now y'all can get all semi nasty and take me to task over that one. It won't change my opinion.

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 09:59 AM
When looking at many rifles billed as long distance "tactical" shooters it seems 308, 300 win mag, and 338 Lapua are the common offerings and picks.

Why does there seem to be little love for the 7mm Rem Mag for this application?

Am I missing something or isn't it ballistically superior to those three cartridges? And substanstially superior to the first two?

It certainly should have adequate punch for human use at extreme long long distance, roughly doubling the energy of the 308 at 1,000 yards.

All with reasonable recoil.

I can see some picking a 308 for low recoil, long barrel life, ammo availability at a low cost, handy short action, etc in exchange for reach.

But as far as the other two as an anti-man rifle, what am I missing?
********************************************


Well there Mav and USSR , the above is the original post , please point out where it states that it's a ' military only' type discussion? It basically asks why there aren't more 'tactical rifles' available in 7mm mag. I believe that question was answered adequately along with addressing .300 mag and .338 Lapua , is that not true?


And USSR , get used to the basic FACT that you're not the only person in the world to ever build a rifle or buy a 'tactical rifle' , me? I just sold a pretty nice shooter based on a Panda action and chambered in 6br , that tell you anything? And I'm an avid enough varminter that I show up at certain organised varmint shoots with a 'golf bag' and at the last one went through better than 2600 rounds across four calibers in three days ( one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick , if you're 'joe moderator' then just let me know and I'll move on and leave you to control the discussion.

waterhouse
December 16, 2009, 10:24 AM
Well there Mav and USSR , the above is the original post , please point out where it states that it's a ' military only' type discussion?

It doesn't state "military only" but it sort of implies it.

What Mav and USSR said, and I tend to agree with them, is (respectively):

That isn't what the OP said in the opening post, I don't believe that there are many civilians that have a need for an "long-range anti-man/personnel" rifle (SWAT snipers are a very small percentage and typically engage targets from a short-moderate range to ensure a kill with no collateral damage)...so unless the OP directs otherwise we ARE discussing military arms.

Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me.

The OP specifically is asking about tactical rifle used for long distance "anti man" roles. What civilian applications are you thinking of that involve tactical long range shooting of human beings? I think the lack of a good answer to that implies that we are discussing non-civilian uses of rifles.

ETA:
The OP actually later posted:

May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use, not target shooting (or game animals).

I think (OP may correct me if I am wrong) that the question boils down to "Why don't the people who shoot people at long distance for a living choose to use a different (arguably better) round?"

I think the answer was nailed with inertia. This is what USSR was getting at when he said:

Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

IOW, the gov't would need a really good reason to switch rounds. You took his quote to mean that the .308 had lots of data, and declared it strawman. What he was really saying was that, the reason 7mm hasn't become used by more snipers is that they have been using .308 et al. for decades and changing anything is a huge hassle.

As mentioned, the Secret Service, a relatively small organization, did use rifles in 7mm. For the military to switch would be a pretty big deal in terms of planning and logistics.

Also (and you are free to continue to keep doing it your way if you prefer) if you highlight the text and select the little icon that looks like a cartoon character talking (toward the right side of the top toolbar when you are replying) it will quote the text in a separate box.

USSR
December 16, 2009, 12:09 PM
...it's been highlighted exactly WHY 7mm mag is a better caliber for extended distances , which is a FACT whether some 'caliber elitist' such as yourself wishes to acknowledge it or not , don't bother argueing the point as I've OWNED and loaded for all three and shot them in the field on a variety of game...

Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.

...quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

Wow, you really got your panties in a wad over this. For a guy with only 57 posts, you really need to take a deep breath if you intend to last long on any forum.

...one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

I must admit, I have never seen a ground squirrel shot with a .458 Lott. You win.

Don

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 12:50 PM
Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.


Quote:
...quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

Wow, you really got your panties in a wad over this. For a guy with only 57 posts, you really need to take a deep breath if you intend to last long on any forum.


Quote:
...one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

I must admit, I have never seen a ground squirrel shot with a .458 Lott. You win.

******************


Blah ,blah ,blah. You come across as an elitist. In addition you seem to be in the above making a great many assumptions about another individual based upon the thinnest of criteria , such extrapolations are almost always in error. So you might as well save the 'take a deep breath' crap for someone else , I've managed to " last on forums" since the '70s when we were still on individual BBS's and the 'net was still TymNet and Arpanet , thank you very much.

And ' only 57 posts' I'm ROTFLMAO at that one , so now we're supposed to base whether one is allowed to join a discussion on the number of posts they have? How does that work exactly? Since by that reasoning one wouldn't be allowed to join any given discussion of they didn't have a certain amount of posts then how would they accumalate the requisite number of posts to allow participation?

What was that about your elitist attitude again? Tell you what , to dismiss opinion and/or information delivered based on that sort of nebulous criteria is rather shortsighted.

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 01:17 PM
Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.


Quote:
...quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

Wow, you really got your panties in a wad over this. For a guy with only 57 posts, you really need to take a deep breath if you intend to last long on any forum.


Quote:
...one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...
It doesn't state "military only" but it sort of implies it.

What Mav and USSR said, and I tend to agree with them, is (respectively):


Quote:
That isn't what the OP said in the opening post, I don't believe that there are many civilians that have a need for an "long-range anti-man/personnel" rifle (SWAT snipers are a very small percentage and typically engage targets from a short-moderate range to ensure a kill with no collateral damage)...so unless the OP directs otherwise we ARE discussing military arms.

Quote:
Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me.

The OP specifically is asking about tactical rifle used for long distance "anti man" roles. What civilian applications are you thinking of that involve tactical long range shooting of human beings? I think the lack of a good answer to that implies that we are discussing non-civilian uses of rifles.

ETA:
The OP actually later posted:


Quote:
May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use, not target shooting (or game animals).

I think (OP may correct me if I am wrong) that the question boils down to "Why don't the people who shoot people at long distance for a living choose to use a different (arguably better) round?"

I think the answer was nailed with inertia. This is what USSR was getting at when he said:


Quote:
Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

IOW, the gov't would need a really good reason to switch rounds. You took his quote to mean that the .308 had lots of data, and declared it strawman. What he was really saying was that, the reason 7mm hasn't become used by more snipers is that they have been using .308 et al. for decades and changing anything is a huge hassle.

As mentioned, the Secret Service, a relatively small organization, did use rifles in 7mm. For the military to switch would be a pretty big deal in terms of planning and logistics.

Also (and you are free to continue to keep doing it your way if you prefer) if you highlight the text and select the little icon that looks like a cartoon character talking (toward the right side of the top toolbar when you are replying) it will quote the text in a separate box.
__________________



For cripes sake , where did I ever at any time state anything whatsoever about the military changing calibers? And what the OP asked was why the 7mm mag isn't used for the purpose , I believe that question was covered adequately wasn't it? I merely pointed out that the caliber under discussion works just fine as an extended range caliber , something I know by intimate experience since I've been shooting it for a llloooooonnngg time and handloading for same.

And of course the military isn't going to replace .308 with 7mm , the former already being standardised and chambered for the same round as our NATO allies ( leaving out the discussion of chamber differences between civilian .308 and 7.62 NATO) , now once again point out where I made a statement that the military should do so?

Look here's what it comes to ,I'm an avid shooter across a variety of disciplines , I like to discuss firearms ,in addition I've found that one can learn something of value from most folks , that said I'm also a native Texan , with all the pecadilloes that are attendant to that factor , so when folks start talking 'down' to me and get snide and assumptive then I have an inherent tendency to serve it back to 'em on a plate.

And I've freely admitted my own personal (slight) prejudice in that I don't have a particular affinity for .308 , though as I stated I could be easily seduced by the right rifle chambered in the caliber , and that I actually *like* .30-06. Most folks have calibers they like over other calibers , many folks think I'm crazy for still keeping ,loading for and shooting a .257 Roberts too , so what. It's a case of 'to each their own'.

And y'all missed what I stated as to the 'horses for courses' factor , to elaborate , in a military or LE scenario where standardisation is of quite some value .308 has BECOME the standard in somewhat of a majority , and for reasons that have been cited. But to slag off other calibers based upon a criteria applicable mostly to such a scenario is to dismiss a whole slew of nice shooting and fine calibers.

But then I still shoot .338 mag too and constantly get the question of why I don't switch to .338 Lapua , and many folks don't understand why I just acquired a .375 RUM for the move back to the Far North and a defensive Bear rifle.

Once again , to each their own , 7mm mag has stood me in good stead all the way from varminting in extended distance windy scenarios all the way up to longer range Elk and Moose , that is of course within the context of civilian scenarios rather than military scenarios , though in a 'bugout and SHTF' case I tend to think it would prove quite adequate in an anti-personell role. God forbid that I'd ever have to be in such a situation , and if that came true I'd tend to make tracks and hope that the land and nature would take care of any opponent.

And at this juncture I'm trying to cut down on my firearms collection , not add to it ,I've got too many to pack into the bush as it is if my offer on the place up north ( way out above NakNek) works out.

And for what it's worth , a couple of close friends of mine living bush have made out for a couple of decades with an Enfield in .303 british and a .22 lr pistol and .375 H and H respectively.

And to reiterate it again 'to each theri own' , and I'm nothing if not fairly pragmatic about these things , if it works for the individual then it works for them.


B.

Maverick223
December 16, 2009, 07:19 PM
Here's what the original question was ( paraphrased) " why isn't the 7mm mag used more as a long range round?"You managed to leave out the part about killing people...and that means military, or the OP has some bad thoughts that I'd rather not contribute to.

Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.Join the club, apparently that is what happens when you try to answer the OPs question.

:)

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 11:44 PM
Quote:
Here's what the original question was ( paraphrased) " why isn't the 7mm mag used more as a long range round?"

You managed to leave out the part about killing people...and that means military, or the OP has some bad thoughts that I'd rather not contribute to.


Quote:
Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.

Join the club, apparently that is what happens when you try to answer the OPs question.

*********************


And how do you get that from the crap has transpired? So lets look again.


A. There are a great many folks shooting at extended ranges with the caliber in question , over a variety of types of shooting.


B. I *NEVER* at any time refered to ANY caliber as the 'holy grail' of shooting , so that particular sarcastic and snide bull**** was uncalled for.

C. When one puts forth that kind of crap one should expect it back in return , and if that's not a demonstration of snide elitism I don't know what is , along with the " you've only got 57 posts here" crap.

D. Want to show where I voiced any objection whatsoever to the answering or the original query?


In closing what this comes down to is a couple of folks ( and no I'm not refering to you) being unable to take what they dish out and getting butthurt about it.

And in the long run the whole thing is a bit hilarious to me , as are certain assumptions aimed my way.

At any rate we all know why the 7mm mag isn't used , it's a sporting caliber for crying out loud , do I need to highlight yet again the standardisation factor inherent with .308?

As far as the 'buffalo the newbie' attitude of certain individuals , if you haven't noticed I don't 'buffalo' real well , and that seems to frustrate a couple of folks. , not that I really give a hang one way of the other , they'll get over it or they won't , no sweat off my dangly bits either way.

Have a good evening ( seriously)

Maverick223
December 17, 2009, 01:15 AM
In the below, my rebuttal is in red for contrast and transparency...

A. There are a great many folks shooting at extended ranges with the caliber in question , over a variety of types of shooting. Sure there are, however it is not an accepted long range anti-personnel cartridge. Will it work?...yes, and is better in some respects than some rounds that are in service today (namely the 7.62NATO); Is it the best option for this task...no, there are superior cartridges that are currently employed in this role that offer advantages (the .300WM and the .338LM). IIRC the Army is considering phasing out the 7.62NATO in favor of the .300WM in sniper rifles, due to the advantages that the cartridge offers.

B. I *NEVER* at any time refered to ANY caliber as the 'holy grail' of shooting , so that particular sarcastic and snide bull**** was uncalled for. You seem to be vehemently defending its use, and attack others that do not agree.

C. When one puts forth that kind of crap one should expect it back in return , and if that's not a demonstration of snide elitism I don't know what is , along with the " you've only got 57 posts here" crap. I don't care if you have 57,000 posts you seem to be the one that is harassing folks with other views and getting your panties in a twist when others express distaste for your disrespect and personal attacks.

D. Want to show where I voiced any objection whatsoever to the answering or the original query? Sure, see the statement below, where you stated what the OPs intentions were (which seems to be incorrect)...unless you are the OP, how do you know that?
And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

:)

blackops
December 17, 2009, 04:08 AM
Whooooa what happen here??

Blue, chill man. These are good guys and they know their stuff (not to say you don't).

Don, everytime I see that thing it puts a smile on my face. Aaahh krieger can't come soon enough.

Horsemany
December 17, 2009, 07:40 AM
bluenote

There are some here who tend to state opinion as fact and yes as you have pointed out sometimes talk down to people. I've learned to accept it and hopefully you can too. Most of us figure out who they are and read their posts with curled lips.

And yes the 7mmRem Mag is the holy grail compared to a 308....physics is physics.....we can't change that. I've got multiple rifles in each chambering and yet I remain realistic.

Grey Morel
December 17, 2009, 09:38 AM
Wow, some of you need to get out of the house.

At the end of the day the 7mm Remington Magnum is probably the best all around cartridge in existence. Sales and field use support that conclusion. That's not to say other calibers don't have their strong suits.

Jim Watson
December 17, 2009, 09:59 AM
Any time I hear about the superiority of the 7mm magnum over the .30-06, I recall the American Rifleman article of some years back when USRA brought out the Model 70 Classic to return the claw extractor to the lineup. For some weird reason, they sent the NRA a Winchester rifle in 7mm Remington Magnum to test. NRA chronographed the ammo they shot the new gun with and lo and behold, three out of the five factory loads were of lower velocity than factory .30-06 of the nearest bullet weight out of my 1958 M70. The other two were ahead, but not by a lot. I know about the higher BC and all that, but don't think it matters much to the typical factory load shooter.
A proficient handloader can make the 7mm run, but as said the target shooters aren't buying new guns for belted magnums and the military hasn't been interested in a big 7mm since the 1913 .280 Enfield.

Uncle Mike
December 17, 2009, 10:19 AM
7mm Remington Magnum is probably the best all around cartridge in existence. Sales and field use support that conclusion.

Best all around cartridge....come on now..... sales and field use doesn't dictate the all around cartridge, it dictates beliefs!

The 7RM is a GREAT round, no doubt about it, but calling it the holy grail of cartridges is a bit much, it is extremely popular...good long range properties...everybody makes their rifle chambered in it...but, the 30-06 is the holy grail of cartridges...lol hehehehe

I don't know why I even bothered with this...lol hehehehe

shelbyville515
January 15, 2013, 09:29 AM
Cartridge B.C Bullet Brop Wind (10mph) Energy(ft/Lbs) MaxSS
7mmRM 162gr AMax .625 60.8@1500m 11.7@1500m 451@1500m 1700
300 RUM 180grAMax .495 65.4@1500m 14.6@1500m 401@15400m 1500
338 Lapua 300gr .675 71.7@1500m 12@1500m 785@1500m 1700
50BMG 647grM33Ball .633 73.6@1500m 12.8@1500m 3890@1500m 1600
50BMG 750gr AMan 1.05 50.1@1500m 6.4@1500m 3890@1500m 2700

The problem is finding the right factory loaded ammo for the 7mmRem Mag. Notice that i didnt list ballistics for the 7mm RUM which are slightly better. 7mm is one of the flattest shooters and packs a more leathel punch even out to 1500m almost remaining 500 ft/lbs when compared to some of the other long range rifles. Any of these calibers are good when matching up the right combo ammo for the job you want to do.

MtnCreek
January 15, 2013, 09:38 AM
If I wanted to kill a zombie thread from '09, the 7mm rm would be my cartridge of choice.

HarcyPervin
January 15, 2013, 02:42 PM
If I wanted to kill a zombie thread from '09, the 7mm rm would be my cartridge of choice.

For the win.

Shelby - that thread was just over 3 years old...take a look at the date stamps when you're searching for information or conversations to take part in.

d2wing
January 15, 2013, 10:05 PM
The 7MM mag has been used as a long distance target round and was highly regarded back in maybe the '60s or so. And it has been used as a sniper round.
A few weeks ago in another thread a link to a you tube guy had charts on how to determine the best round for a set of criteria. The 7mm Rem mag had the longest effective range with higher retained energy and supersonic to 1300 meters or so beating all other hunting rounds buy 400 yards. But a couple other much higher recoil sniper rounds could beat it. If I recall the .300 WM was close or better but at a higher recoil.
So it is maybe the most optimal round for hunting and tactical purposes. I hunt with it and 30-06 and the deer and I can't tell the difference but my longest one shot kills are with the 7 MM.
For Military use, they have the .308. They don't need to compromise on special sniper rounds and have rounds that exceed the 7MM. Bigger and faster.

Dthunter
January 17, 2013, 01:09 PM
Shooting a 240grain 7mm bullet would be like shooting a pencil! Lol!

Just toooo much of a good Thing.

Chief 101
January 17, 2013, 05:01 PM
call that an Arrow

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