[JTW Jr.]

I have this same thread going on a knife forum , but rather than clutter up everyone else's threads here ( as someone seems to keep posting the same BAD info over and over ) , I figured a separate thread to discuss is a better idea.

I have never heard any of the damascus makers make an absurd claim that their damascus will out perform any other steel. Damascus is not made to out perform steels like CPM154 , S30v , etc , at best you can hope to equal the performance of a single steel. Now if a damascus maker can equal a single steel and make it look spectacular , well that is where the market really pays attention. Many of these guys can do that every single time , makers like Devin Thomas , Mike Norris , Todd Fischer , Chad Nichols , Mike & Audra Draper ,

It does however take great understanding of the materials , temps involved , forging processes that would make some ISO9000 companies cringe , and incredible control to nail those wild patterns (that we all love ) time after time. The guys that do it well are at the top of their game for a reason , they put in their time , put in their research and know what the steels can or can't do.

But a true performance advantage in damascus ? If someone believes this to be the case , lets see the data to back it up ( hard data - facts - links - cutting tests , etc ). I don't recall hearing any damascus blades winning any cutting competitions.

Quality damascus will cost you upwards of $12 per inch ( in 1/8" thickness ) with 3/16 starting around $17-$20. Majority of the damascus you see on ebay is terrible and is not what you see used in custom knives. The more unique the pattern , and the more consistent the pattern , the more you can expect to pay , example , random pattern vs. raindrop or vines & roses.

So , lets hear your thoughts ( and facts ) , on why you think damascus can outperform a single steel ?

Someone I consider a very talented Damascus maker , Todd , said :
Damascus is only as good as it's elements. Everything that goes into a billet should be steel that would make a fine blade on it's own. No secret, after a few folds, with uninhibited carbon migration, your Damascus billet is basically a homogeneous piece of steel and that's exactly what it acts like.

As such it also does not require any special mystery sharpening technique. :cool:

[SShepherd]

it can't:neener:

[Gerry McGinnis]

I think you must buy it from India or Pakistan for it to be any good? Americans don't know how to do it, or so I have been told by people deemed much wiser than I. After all, they didn't even know about it 20 years ago.

Wait... I just saw a pics of a Carson that is damascus from 30 years ago! ;) I bet Kit got his steel from Pakistan. Yep, that's it.

There is NO performance advantage! AT ALL! Anybody that says there is probably is trying to sell you something. As JTW knows, I make and sell plenty of damascus knives. I use Stainless damascus by Chad Nichols and Mike Norris, and have also used a bit of Damasteel and Devin Thomas. Three top notch individuals and a good company, but none that have an advantage over a good stainless steel. THEY won't even try to say that there is a cutting or edge holding advantage. :rolleyes: They make and sell steel that is art. Getting good welds between stainless is difficult. If everybody knew how to do it consistently, it wouldn't be anything special. These three guys are VERY good at what they do, and they do it for a living. They will sell you steel all day long, but they won't give you some line of BS about how it'll out-cut S30V or 20CV or BG42 or CPM154CM.

Todd Fischer makes awesome Carbon damascus, as well as lots of other top shelf makers today. But, I'll use Todd as an example. He has been doing this a long while, he does this professionally as many of us do. He is the total knifemaking package, he makes his own damascus and then makes knives out of that damascus. I think that is VERY cool! He likes to use 52100 as a primary alloy in his "using" damascus. 52100 as a blade steel alone is great, and I have personally made and used hard plenty of knives out of it. Will Todd tell you his 52100/15n20 damascus has a performance advantage over 52100 alone? I highly doubt it.

Once again, only people trying to sell you something (such as cheap imported knives with damascus that looks VERY bad with lots of coldshuts and other imperfections) will tell you that damascus has a performance adavntage. When professional knifemakers (full time knifemakers, making a living making knives with their own hands) tell these people directly that it just isn't true and has been proven time and time again, they will just try to make them look stupid in hopes that the uneducated will believe them instead. They have a whole box full of those cheap horrible looking imported knives, and until they get rid of them all, they have something to sell. ;)

If anyone has a damascus folder for under $100 that they would like to test, please PM me. I will offer up one of my custom knives to test against it for performance reasons. I have a large patch of bamboo on my property, and I LOVE to chop on it. It'll be like killing two birds with one stone, we will get to test the steel AND the strength of build construction of the knife!

Gerry

[JTW Jr.]

Very well said Gerry , sure hope be get to hang out again real soon my friend.

[MRPAPA]

Very difficult to be answered as it is too generalized. If you ask if a certain form of Damascus will out perform stainless steel the answer could be yes or no according to the elements used in the damascus.
Damascus is made by layers of high and low carbon content steel. It is then forged, welded by beating together. After which it is folded numerous times in order to create a steel that is both hard enough to hold an edge and soft enough to be flexible. This style metal was the supreme metal used in sword making following the brass age and then the iron age of sword and weapon making. There were no further advances made once this method of steel making was established because of the supreme performance of the steel. This remains true to this date. Stainless steel seen in many knives today is one steel forged with a carbon content to obtain the stainless steel. Therefore, you have one metal, hence the blade will have that one particular steels attributes. In our modern world, many types of Damascus is made for show only. I would guess that these beautiful pieces would be made with the thoughts of beauty and not performance. But, if one is making a blend of Damascus for performance, there will be nothing better. There are, however, some knife makers who employee the use of dye steel, tool steel and spring steel who make blades that can compete. There are knives bulit using any of these steels alone, without layering them to create damascus. These knives are absolutely a supreme performing knife. A few knife makers use spring and tool steel to make a nice swirl pattern damascus which would also out perform a standard stainless steel. When speaking of the performance of a steel there are many things to consider. One must consider the hardness, the flex, the ease of sharpening, the ability to "hold" an edge as so many people put it, the needed care to maintain the steel, the sharpness that can be obtained, and the history of performance. As I have over 300 knives in my collection and 20+ years experience in dealing with steel blades all over the country and world, I would say that the answer to your question even as generalized as it is would be absolutely, positively, without a doubt, yes, overall, Damascus is superior.
As for the Americans can`t do it comment. There are a handful of Americans that have obtained the art of creating an excellent example of Damascus but as percentages go, you are correct. The art of blending Damascus is common-place in the far east. It is also more common in many other countries and places such as Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Omen, yemen, Turkey, Germany, UK, Greece, etc.etc., and now even Canadians and the Brits have started to catch on.
Sell you something??? LOLOL... I`m on vacation which is why I have the time for this. How is explaning the properties and attributes of steel a sells pitch?? I do sale knives but I see you have a few of my friends steels already. Where did you get the Chad Nichols knife?? How much did you pay?? Show me a photo. You are like many other confused individuals with your statement of "Cheap Imports" You will not find a better sword than is made in Japan, hardly a better knife than from Germany. Again, generalized nonsense. I will go ahead and say it sense it seems there`s no reasoning. Most U.S. knives which are deemed, "The Best" are crap. I say this while owning hundreds. Compare the materials used and technic used in making those "cheap imports" to your Gerbers or Case knives...LOL Any knife that is mass produced suffers inperfections equally. I have knives made in China by Spyderco and a few others that are equal to any production knife made. I also have a few bone handles 440 stainless knives made in pakistan that are just as equal. In my business, this knowledge is common-place. It is even laughable.
There is a wealth of information online but the majority of the best and factual information will not be found in the english language.
Contrary to your beliefs, OP, there is no getting away from the performance of Damascus steel that is made to perform. There is also no doubt in it as the superior. As I have faced this arguement many times in the U.S. due to ill knowledge of the art, I do not expect for many to agree as it is not common knowledge, which was your intentions since this thread was placed here for me in particular. All that I can do is give the knowledge to you. What you do with it is completely up to you.

[SShepherd]

MRPAPA...

Your post is nothing but opinion, you show no proof or facts to back up any of your statements to back up your position.

"There were no further advances made once this method of steel making was established because of the supreme performance of the steel. "

honestly??!! I would suggest you contact NASA, because they're doing it wrong..and so is everone else (according to you and your lack of proof) Honestly, thats such an ingnorant statement , it stands on it's own and no more comment is needed.


"Stainless steel seen in many knives today is one steel forged with a carbon content to obtain the stainless steel"

umm..noooo :rolleyes: The addition of chromium (usually a minimum of 10.5%) is what makes stainless steel "stain resistant", and sets it apart from non-stainless steels. Both stainless and non stainless steels can have a high carbon content.

The rest of your ignorant rambeling is simply just misinformed opinion, almost to the point of sounding like a shill for indian made, pattern welded steel:scrutiny:

I would figure someone with "20 years of expierience" would know the difference between chromium and carbon, and their effects on steel.

I find this comment telling of your "expertise":
"There is a wealth of information online but the majority of the best and factual information will not be found in the english language."

well, I suppose you should enlighten us with your secret knowledge, and references to your books or papers on this subject ! I'm sure through the magic of the internet we can get it translated in a matter of days.
Oh, I'm pretty sure Landes and Verhoeven, and a few others would be VERY interested in how their research isn't factuall.


"There is also no doubt in it as the superior. As I have faced this arguement many times in the U.S. due to ill knowledge of the art, "

Again...the burden of proof is on you, and untill you do this is just your opinion--NOT FACT.
Ill knowledge of "the art" ? I garuntee there are plenty of american knifemakers ( which you seem to think are ignorant rubes by your previous statements) who will make your "20 years of expierience" look like a lesson in potty training.

I do have to say, I am curious-- you have told various people that you are "well known" in the industry as an expert, why not use your real name?


I have to wonder if you're also of the opinion that a forged blade is superior to a stock removal made blade, and that "edge packing" a forged blade makes the steel more dence- therefore making the edge sharper

[hso]

Gents, we're not going to have this discussion here since it's more appropriate for a real knife forum and I'll leave one logical question for anyone interested to ponder the implications.

Has anyone seen "damascus" steel in a modern industrial cutting application in Japan, Europe or the US?

[JTW Jr.]

mr pappa , please , provide FACTS has to how it is superior , other than in appearance.

Not just because someone who is a shill for their friends new website says so , that won't fly here or on any knife forum , and you know it , which is why you bring your meaningless drivel here , but I assure you , the knife folks here are very knowledgeable , and can see thru your hype and BS.

And please , give your real name , if it carries that much weight in the industry , but again , we know and you know , that it doesn't.

[cfendley]

hso, very well put and nuff said, if a damascus was superior they would make that instead of formulating steels such as CPM M4 for industrial applications. Because of what it was designed for is the reason CPM M4 has been the winning steel in cutting competition knives for a while now.

A friend of mine is a land clearer and builds his own brush grinders (ones that with grind up to 14 inch logs) and the blades are not made from a damascus. If you've seen the price on CPM M4 and some of the other high grade tool steels you'll realize it may be cheaper for him to use some high priced damascus if it would work. After trying and running blades from several steels he is currently making the blades from D2 as it seems to be the best performer in relation to cost.

[Gerry McGinnis]

MRPAPA: If you can consider Chad Nichols a friend, I would be very suprised. As far as "where I got" the knife... I made it. I'm a knifemaker (as, oddly and hysterically, everyone else in the thread is, although I don't know and havent met HSO). Link to my website is in my profile if you care to see a picture, take your pick. You can come talk to me in June at the Blade Show in Atlanta, not a far drive for you. I'll be at Booth 132 and 133 with Tom Mayo, Matt Cucchiara, and Lee Williams. I'm sure Ken Onion will be around somewhere, and if one knifemaker on the planet has done analysis on steel more than him, I sure haven't met them. We would all LOVE to talk to you. I'll also be at SHOT Show in a month in Las Vegas with Columbia River Knife and Tool. I'm sure that booth is not difficult to find, and I'm sure you will be at the show given your professional status. "LOLOL" JTW Jr. will be around too, when you show up I'll give him a call.

I agree HSO, arguing any fact of life with some people is a moot point. As Cliff says, nobody uses damascus for industial applications or for winning cutting competitions.

Gerry McGinnis

[Les George]

Mr HSO, makes the best point yet.... Sir, your answer is NO. :)

[SShepherd]

you're right, I got a bit carried away---

sorry about that. I just get a little irritated by so called "internet experts" who make it difficult for people looking for info to be able to seperate fact from fiction.

[bikerdoc]

Being the least experience knifemaker here, with less than a dozen to my credit I venture no opinion. I have only worked in 1095.

What I will expess is a deep respect for those more experienced than me, on this and other forums, who share their knowledge freely, and have guided my efforts by encouraging learning, and growth. Some well known heavey hitters in the industry have taken some of their expensive time to point me in the right direction.

For this, I thank them.

[Les George]

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/duty_calls.png

[Madcap_Magician]

None. Damascus is only as good as the steel it's made from. It doesn't acquire any special properties above and beyond that.

[Beelzy]

Damascus is a Beauty Steel......it will cut great but it's no Tool Steel.

The thing about knives with Damascus blades is the Art of making the steel. All the
different combinations and patterns is what makes this type of knife material so
popular with Custom makers.

Oh, and forget about that DamaSteel crap, there's no Art in that.

Ball Bearings made this Damascus blade.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c82/beelzy/Danbo1.jpg

[E304life]

Ball Bearings made this Damascus blade.

That is absolutely beautiful Beelzy. Who made this blade?

[hso]

For those of you that aren't sure we've met, remember the loud round red headed guy at Blade or some hammer-in in an excruciatingly loud Aloha shirt and hiking shorts (add apron if forging) talking a mile a minute with some knifemaker yelling at him "Mikie, turn the power down on that thing!". :scrutiny::eek:

That was my evil twin.:evil:

[StephanFowler]

HSO - don't forget the glasses

[bikerdoc]

Welcome Mr Fowler,

I admire your work.

[JVoutilainen]

I am a carpenter and I have noticed a difference in performance (with non-etched carbon steel damascus). However, since there are so many variables that determine the efficiency of a blade I am not going to argue that damascus is the key factor.

Also, I think it is a bit questionable to say that because something is not being used in industry "there is NO benefit". There could be a benefit - of some kind - but it might be marginal and not enough to justify the (exceedingly) high production cost of the material.

And I am not trying to sell you anything :)

[JTW Jr.]

Over on a knife forum where I posted this same thread and invited mr pappa (with a direct line ), quite a few top damascus makers have weighed in and all agree'd , there is not a performance advantage , strangely enough , mr pappa was a no show to join the discussion.

[JVoutilainen]

What do you mean by "performance advantage"? And how would you go about testing this "performance"? I have been using cutting implements of various kinds professionally for 5 years (that means a LOT of sharpening) and I still can't produce consistent cutting performance. In my opinion this alone would present a major obstacle for any "scientific" test.

[gb6491]

Just for clarification, in this thread, is the term "Damascus" being used in reference to pattern welded steel (as I think it is) or is Wootz steel being included in the mix?
Regards,
Greg

[ATBackPackin]

This all started when I was asking for some advise and MRPAPA made the following statements verbatim.

“The absolute best steel that I have found for a knife or sword blade is Damascus.”

“I only buy Damascus steels at present because I have researched Damascus for the past 4 or 5 years and found it to be superior in every way.”

Just trying to clarify since there seems to be some confusion.

[ArfinGreebly]

I would refer you to hso's remarks, wherein he questions whether Damascus steels are currently used in any industrial applications.

The answer, quite simply, is no.

If you have a steel from which you expect exceptional performance, you would at least do a quick survey of whether it has such industrial applications. Industry is always looking for a better portfolio of metals for what they do. If they do a lot of cutting (like producing plastic cards, for example) they don't want to keep shutting down the line to install new blades. Shutting down a production line is expensive. No point in scrimping on the blade quality.

If Damascus steels were that much better, you'd see them in places like that. And you don't.


(FWIW, I don't believe MRPAPA will be joining us in this discussion. Otherwise occupied, you understand.)

[Zeke/PA]

No doubt about it, a well excuited Damascas blade is indeed a thing of beauty.
HOWEVER, D-2 rules!!

[hso]

There are industrial steels that exceed the cost of machine made "damascus". If damascus were better in a cutting application it would also be cheaper and therefore used instead of these more expensive steels.

It just isn't happening anywhere in the world. That's pretty definitive.

What about cutting competitions? This is the place where makers test their mettle (pun intended) and the merits of the metal and blade design in their knives. Anyone see damascus in the winning blades? If "damascus" were head and shoulders above every other steel then it would be winning all the cutting competitions. The fact that it is not is pretty definitive.

Pretty? Oh YES! As good as many common blade steels? If properly made, sure. As good as exotic steels? No.

Why is my opinion relevant? I've been buying and selling production and custom knives for over 30 years, that means lots of knives handled. I joined the Knife Maker's Guild nearly 20 years ago. Even my 11 year old daughter is a member of the American Bladesmith Society. I have very good friends who are custom knife makers and blade smiths (some of them even here) who I've spent days, and sometimes, weeks in their shops. I've spent years going to hammerins and shows listening to and talking with makers and manufacturers about knives and their performance. I even spent a few years in the Oak Ridge National Laboratory Metals and Ceramics Division and have done graduate work in Materials. And for some silly reason manufacturers and makers have asked my opinion on one thing or another and some have even found it useful.

But all that is shadowed by the two simple logical questions, why isn't it in industrial use when it's cheaper than some cutting steels and why isn't it in all the winning cutting competition knives?

This is your forum not mine, so you can all debate the issue, and I trust that the members here will come to the truth. OTOH, when someone comes in with bogus information it's my obligation point out the logical flaws.

That doesn't mean that there isn't a place for pattern welded steels. The beauty of the things made from it is enough reason alone. The fact that you can cut with such a thing of beauty is beautiful in itself. Why does it have to take on mythical properties, though?

[clem]

Try one of these:


http://www.ragweedforge.com/SwedishKnifeCatalog.html

[LawofThirds]

I think the main confusion is between the current incarnation of damascus which is primarily a decorative technique and the older, now nonexistent woontz (may be wrong on that spelling) or damascene steel produced in either india or damascus during the middle ages and into ~1700's. That one is no longer existent because the source of steel or the manufacturing technique (or both) has been lost. It is characterized by nano-tube crystalline structure which results in an incredibly hard steel that maintains flexibility.

[hso]

Hard flexible blades have have been around for a while and are available today from many smiths (look at the ABS testing requirements) and smiths are making "wootz" and have been for the past several years (Al Pendray, Rick Furrier, etc.).

Beware a single article or even a single author's work, it doesn't make a body of proof.

[JVoutilainen]

hso,

If modern alloys are superior in every way, why do many woodworking professionals still prefer carbon steel? Old high quality blades are very sought after. For example, best woodworking planes I have are hundred years old with blades made in Sheffield England.

As I said, I use damascus blades, but they are not "pretty" at all, since they have not been etched to show the pattern. If you put one under a microscope after sharpening and polishing no micro serration is visible.

This is not as straight forward an issue as it might seem. Material does not determine the quality or performance of the blade - skill and knowledge of the blade smith does. Furthermore, quality blade means nothing if the user does not know how to keep it sharp. I think this much is obvious.

About industrial applications. People keep bringing up this point, but is it really relevant? This should be about cutting performance of knives. There is absolutely no logic in comparing the performance of knives to blades used in mass production. How many knives have to perform well at 20000rpm and at 200 degrees celsius, for example?

[mete]

I might as well put my 2 cents in here !
Top of the line hand planer blades and chisels are made from A-2 ,hardly a simple carbon steel.As a kid I used chisels that were available but wished for a better steel like A-2.
Differentiate between damascus [ folded steel] and wootz. Wootz is being made by some but it is a very labor intensive process. Performance of damascus is very dependant on the steels used.Wootz is one steel throughout the pattern being due to the carbides not different alloys.

[JVoutilainen]

mete,

That is a generalization. What it comes down to is personal preference of the user.

[PX15]

FWIW:

I never thought Damascus was "better" than other steels, I bought mine because it's "purty" and I don't cut anything anyway. :D

My cc knife just clips onto my pocket until the time, hopefully never, when I run out of bullets and having a sharp knife in my pocket is better than just yelling "help".. :D

No offense,

Jesse

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_1589.jpg