Saiga in Russian service?

What does the Russian military use the Saiga 12 for? I am figuring that they use them as we use shotguns i.e. door breaching, guard duty, and close quarters. But Do they use 10 round mags or higher capacity mags? Are they full auto? How many rounds do they carry? Sorry for all the questions, just I have no idea and a google search yielded nothing.

Thanks in advance.

A Saiga is just an AKM with some changes to make it less "evil" looking. (And, of course, available in a wider variety of chamberings.)

I've never heard of them being used by a military organization. I believe they were constructed entirely as a way to adapt the Kalashnikov rifle for "civilian" sales, both here and in Europe/Russia.

I'd be curious to hear of them ever being used for official duty, though. Could have happened somewhere.

-Sam

I'm sure plenty of "Gamerzzz" in Russia use them on.

I am figuring that they use them as we use them i.e. door breaching, guard duty, and close quarters.

Wait. Are you asking specifically about the Saiga12 shotgun? "We" don't use them for anything. I've yet to hear of any US military or Law Enforcement agency that has adopted them in any capacity.

I have heard that there were a few prototype full-auto Saiga12s built for testing, but not that any Russian force or agency has fielded them.

-Sam

I'm going to guess that since this is in the shotguns forum, that he means the shotguns, and by "use them as we use them" he means Russia's military uses and our military uses shotguns for. If you watch the Izmash videos on youtube, you'll see videos of swat type teams breaching and clearing rooms with them. I don't know how much is spectacle, and how much is legit though.

I'm going to guess that since this is in the shotguns forum, that he means the shotguns Which is why I asked the question. It didn't ocurr to me until later that he'd posted in Shotguns and not elsewhere. "Saiga" coveres a bunch of related weapons, only some of which are shotguns.

and by "use them as we use them" he means Russia's military uses and our military uses shotguns for.Yup. Got that.

The use of combat shotguns has not been universal throught the world's militaries. We (the US) use them frequently, and some other countries (mostly our allies) have used them, but it would be overstaing the case to say that the use of combat shotguns is common to other forces. I have never heard of the Russian military using them, but I could certainly be very wrong. I'd be surprised if a few hadn't been run through some kinds of trials, if for no other reason than that Izmash would sure love to sell some.

-Sam

The Saiga-12 used by the Russian military is much different than the imported sporter. It is factory built "tactical" setup. Magazines are typically 8 rounds. With the exception of a few hard to find (but not impossible) parts, you could convert yours to this depending on local laws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwIITTwh1DY

Take it for what its worth, but on Spike's "The Deadliest Warrior" they listed the Saiga-12 as one of the Spetsnaz's weapons.

Yes, but instead of letting them compete with their regular Saiga 12 tactical models, they made them compete with a unconverted sporter.

Which is why I asked the question. It didn't ocurr to me until later that he'd posted in Shotguns and not elsewhere. "Saiga" coveres a bunch of related weapons, only some of which are shotguns.

edited to fix that

A trip to the Izhmash web site lists the saiga 12 as a hunting arm. On the military side they produce a weapon called the 18.5 KS-K. It appears to be a saiga 12s with regular AK sights, a rail on the top cover, door breaching muzzle device, a left side folding stock. 8 shot mag. Full auto? Do not know. Hope this helps.

They use them mainly for impressing the ladies.

According to the Jane's book I have, the Saiga .410 variants are common guard guns in that part of the world.

A trip to the Izhmash web site lists the saiga 12 as a hunting arm
I used to have one. Have you ever seen a shoot pattern of them, horrible? Its Tactic cool, not for serious hunting.

From Max Popenker's site:

"All weapons in the Saiga family inherited the basic design of the AK, with long piston stroke gas system, rotating bolt with two massive lugs, and box magazine feeding. The shotgun part of this large family includes guns chambered for .410, 20 and 12 gauge magnum ammunition. In each chambering, there's at least three versions, with long barrel and fixed stock, long barrel and side-folding AK-74M type polymer stock and with same folding stock and shorter barrel. The latter versions intended as a security, police and self-defense weapons, and are widely used by numerous Russian law enforcement and private security services."

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh07-e.htm

Max's site is always awesome! He still doesn't suggest that the Russian military is using any Saiga12s.

By the way, catch the cool note about how they rigged the folding stock on their commercial domestic models so that the trigger is blocked with the stock folded! Gets around their local laws against civilian ownership of such things by making the gun inoperable in folded condition.

Not that I think the rules are good, at all, but a functional solution like they came up with is MUCH better than bans on folding stocks like we experienced in the '90s. It keeps the primary reason for a folding stock (storage in small spaces, vehicles, etc.) intact while assuaging the blissninnies.

Gotta love Russian ingenuity!

-Sam

If a good reason for a folding stock is transport/storage in a vehicle, and accidental or negligent discharge entering and exiting a vehicle with the firearm is a concern, then an automatic safety with stock folded might be an option one might want under some conditions.

Max's site is always awesome! He still doesn't suggest that the Russian military is using any Saiga12s.

Just wanted to counter some of the above posts that imply that the Saiga cannot be a serious duty shotgun.

A full auto Saiga-12, w.o a rate reducer, would be insane....

http://www.youtube.com/user/FR3D1337#p/a/u/1/nj5lBY4SOq4

It's surprising how much the High-brass kicks at that rate of fire :-/

Russian Military and Police Services use a number of shotguns including the Saiga 12 guage, 20 guage, and .410

They also use a 4 guage pump action brute of a weapon for breeching and stopping vehicles in congested areas.

The Russians are now supposed to have available an effective and reliable 12 or 16 round drum magazine for the Saiga shotgun.

Me, I'll stick with my Mossbergs.

They also use a 4 guage pump action brute of a weapon

Yes! Would love to have one of those, though it is actually a rifled gun, with the barrel made from salvaged 23mm aircraft cannon barrels! Yee haw!

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh30-e.htm

Still a police weapon, though. Don't see any references to it being used militarily. Not nit picking...I want to know.

-Sam

clicked the link. So HOW exactly would you fire that pistol grip? I'm well over six foot and nearly 300 pounds, well fed and active, and I'd have doubts, let alone some scrawny frostbitten ruskie.:D

So HOW exactly would you fire that pistol grip?
I don't know, exactly, but I sure want to try!

I'm well over six foot and nearly 300 pounds, well fed and active, and I'd have doubts, let alone some scrawny frostbitten ruskieThey probably have a specially trained cadre of babuskas for that duty. LOL!

:D

-Sam

Since Russian Military and Police Services tend to work hand in hand with each other,,,,All Police Services cadre have Russian military experience, it is a fair assessment to believe what one Department is using can be made available to another department readily through contact and requisition.

While there are special use police weapons that can be made available to the military, there is no reason to think the weapons would be issued on any wide scale.

Case in point, Russian Spetznaz can requisition pretty much any type of weapon they might need to perform a mission, same as any of our Special Forces.
And like our Military, that would not mean any and all rank and file Infantry Units could requisiton and receive the same weapons.
Another case in point to support this from the US side, there are Special Operations troops who train and deploy with Glock 9mm handguns, that doesn't mean PFC Smith, Mortarman from the 82nd Airborne is going to get a Glock.

The SO troops using the Glocks train the Iraq Military and Police who will receive Glock pistols.
It would look kind of silly if they showed up packing Beretta M9s and started training the Iraq guys on the Glock.
'We use this, but YOU are gonna use this.'
Good enough for you guys and good enough for us.

Still, the fact remains that those special use weapons are being used by active members of the military.