looking for an Ak-47


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semper_fidelis
December 14, 2009, 10:03 AM
Hey folks, I'm now looking for an AK-47. As always I'm looking for the best cost to quality ratio I can find. What are the best, most durable and accurate, brands/origins/countries. Do any U.S. companies make them for a decent price? Anyone know of any laws that I have work around in IL? As always thanks for your help and merry Christmas

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briansmithwins
December 14, 2009, 10:09 AM
K-Var has pretty good prices for decent rifles that won't require work to fix.

http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=329&sort=orderby&sort_direction=0&page=1

BSW

sv51macross
December 14, 2009, 10:26 AM
Or, if you don't mind putting-out AR-type money for a premium, tacticool rifle, check-out Krebs Custom Inc. (Located in Illinois too!)
http://www.krebscustom.com/KalashnikovRifles.shtml

nulfisin
December 14, 2009, 10:39 AM
KVAR is a good option. Another one is Classic Arms, which has decent Romanian WASRs for under $400. The WASRs aren't as nice as the real Russians that KVAR is selling, but you can save about $100 and still get a rifle that shoots well. I have both. Balancing cost and quality, you're about even.

BTW, it's not really cheaper to convert your own Saiga any more. I did that and saved no money. A fun project, though.

wally
December 14, 2009, 11:22 AM
BTW, it's not really cheaper to convert your own Saiga any more. I did that and saved no money. A fun project, though.

True enough, but it still lets you shoot the cheaper Saiga now and get the conversion parts later as funds permit.

--wally.

mountainpharm
December 14, 2009, 11:24 AM
I bought mine from Atlantic Firearms and am very happy with it. Atlantic is a member here and will extend a discount to you if you mention that you're also a member of THR. Very easy to deal with these guys.

www.atlanticfirearms.com

rangerruck
December 14, 2009, 11:28 AM
If you want all parts bran new, good , pretty accurate and cheap, there is only one; Saiga.
for stock ak's , I like a Bulgarian, the origional polish copy ak is very good, I like the various Yugo's as well, and the chinese milled.

smince
December 14, 2009, 11:50 AM
Buy a cheap WASR and send it and $400 to Jim Fuller for his tune up:
www.rifledynamics.com

230therapy
December 14, 2009, 12:43 PM
Arsenals are very good.

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 14, 2009, 12:44 PM
You can base convert a Saiga in the caliber of your choice, for the gun and standard mags + $130.

Rodman30
December 14, 2009, 01:11 PM
check out I.O INC they make AK-47s in NC

Norinco982lover
December 14, 2009, 01:51 PM
Buy a cheap WASR and send it and $400 to Jim Fuller for his tune up:
www.rifledynamics.com


What all is involved in the tune up?

I love my converted Saiga and I finished the whole conversion for around $500 total.

The WASR is cheap cheap cheap and usually not a bad gun either.

~Norinco

BTR
December 14, 2009, 02:21 PM
Get the Arsenal Saiga conversion ASAP. The sale is supposed to end shortly. It's got a new russian reciever, new chromed barrel, scope rail and threaded barrel with an effective brake.

semper_fidelis
December 14, 2009, 04:58 PM
What all is to be converted on the Saiga?

rd2007
December 14, 2009, 06:00 PM
you can get some pretty good prices here and some come with a pretty good deal on ammo as well http://www.jgsales.com/index.php/rifles/ak-47-and-rpk-rifles/rifles/ak-47-and-rpk-rifles/cPath/209_214/sort/3a/page/2

I got mine off a former coworker because I wanted one that I knew worked and he has a whole arsenal of them, so I knew it had the bugs worked out of it. I prefer the true look over the pretty modified ones. Some splotch marks, scratches, and tough looking wood makes it look authentic. Some of those gussied up modified ones look like they belong in a Hollywood movie, but that's just me.

Boolit
December 14, 2009, 06:15 PM
Here's the latest one I did. Romanian G - Nodak Spud NDS-3 receiver - modified Tapco single-hook trigger group - Choate handguard - Vltor carbine stock tube - Magpul MOE stock - Krebs flash hider - tritium big dot front sight/aperture rear - manganese parkerizing by me.

http://i485.photobucket.com/albums/rr220/pallymcgee/Park028.jpg

CosmicGrooves
December 14, 2009, 06:45 PM
I was in your boots two weeks ago. I didn't know anything about the AK's and which one to get. After some research and asking questions here, I got the SGL21 from K-var.com. It was a brand new rifle for not much more than what the cheap Romanian WASR's cost. It will arrive at my FFL dealer today and I hope to go pick it up tomorrow.

therickster
December 14, 2009, 07:53 PM
I also just recently bought and purchased my first AK. Being a tightwad to begin with, I got one of the cheapest I could find, which ended up being a WASR from ClassicArms. I can't really compare it with other AK because I'm still pretty new to this, but it works. Took it out over the weekend and it shot every time I pulled the trigger. I'll probably get some upgrades for it, but as a base configuration, it's not bad. Some of the accessories (sling, bayonet) were junk, but with two 30 round mags for $390 it's cheaper than a Saiga kit (which I seriously considered and still might have to try).

Dr.Mall Ninja
December 14, 2009, 07:56 PM
i'm wanting one myself. i'm probably going to just get one of those base ones too.

nalioth
December 14, 2009, 08:07 PM
K-Var has pretty good prices for decent rifles that won't require work to fix.

<URL REMOVED>

BSW . . at least until their sale ends.

(then it's back to gouging the American ignorant)

Quentin
December 14, 2009, 08:14 PM
I went the bottom feeder route and bought a WASR 10/63 at a gun show three years ago. Picked the best one out of a rough looking bunch and couldn't find anything seriously wrong with it. Cleaned it up and have had a lot of fun with it. No complaints here, it's never malfunctioned even with cheap surplus ammo.

I'd say if the lowest common denominator functions that well you can expect good service from most AKs out there. Just check it out before buying as you would with any firearm.

smince
December 14, 2009, 08:56 PM
What all is involved in the tune up?
WASR Reworks:
We all know if you get a “good” WASR it will work fine for you, it may be ugly but it will run well. For those of you with a WASR that has the typical Century problems we can go through and fix/repair all the issues. Those who are concidering a WASR purchase but are concerned about what you might get, we can help you as well.

Rifle Dynamics is going to offer reworks on WASRs it will consist of the following,
Correct mag well
Straiten canted front sights, gas blocks and rear sight towers
Fix trigger slap
Remove welded muzzle nut to access threaded barrel
Pin gas piston
Remove sharp edges from controls
Lighten Safety
Fuller rear sight mod
Sandblast and Parkerize
Shipping back to customer
350.00

We can do Norrells Moly Resin over park for additional finish protection. 75.00
Refinish wood stocks or replace wood with K-var Poly furniture, 110.00 (includes stock set).
Other services are available call or visit my website, www.rifledynamics.com

If you think about what a WASR costs then add my WASR rework and you have an excellent fighting gun that looks and performs like you want it to for under 800.00.

Thanks
Jim Fuller
Rifle Dynamics

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 14, 2009, 09:09 PM
Like I said before, tell me why you would pay $450 for a WASR, then another $400 to have it fixed, that's $850 not including various taxes, shipping, FFL, NICS, etc. costs???

Just buy a Saiga for less than $400, get $130 worth of parts, sit down for 2 1/2 hours. Much better gun, for $300 less.

Dr.Mall Ninja
December 14, 2009, 09:14 PM
thats allot of work to do to a 400 dollar gun.

nulfisin
December 14, 2009, 09:16 PM
To answer the question, "what is involved," no one is trying to ignore you. There are many threads on this and plenty of videos on the Net. Essentially, you are converting a sporterized Saiga into "battle" format. The most important part of the conversion (but certainly not the only one) is moving the trigger group forward to its more natural position. Again, it's a fun project, but if that's not your cup of tea and you have the funds, you can buy one already converting for the same price as converting it yourself. Alternatively, you can buy a WASR for about $100 less. A good gun IMO, but not as good as the Saiga.

XxWINxX94
December 14, 2009, 09:25 PM
If your looking for a good shooter then go with a Romanian WASR-10. They are very cheap cost wise. Mine was $600 at my local gun shop. Its not as high quality as a Russian one but if your lookin to shoot then it will do you good.

Atlantic Firearms
December 14, 2009, 10:04 PM
We offer a wide selcection of AK rifles from $349 on up to Milled units , feel free to contact us with any questions and pleas mention you are a HR member we offer discounts for you guys & gals !

sales@atlanticfirearms.com

www.atlanticfirearms.com

Z-Michigan
December 14, 2009, 10:10 PM
If you want a 7.62x39mm (the original and most common AK caliber), then the SGL-21 deal is unbeatable right now. $600 or so for a top quality AK with nothing to modify or fix:
http://www.k-var.com/shop/home.php?cat=353

These were much higher a month ago and were not a deal at the higher price.

If you want a 5.45x39mm AK-74 type, the lowest price deal at the moment (for a nice quality model) is the Lancaster "rough rider", which Atlantic has for $479:
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/storeproduct843.aspx

AIM Surplus often has good deals but they often sell out quickly (probably because the deals are so good). Classic Arms sometimes has good deals but their advertising-speak is way over the top, so you must research and understand what you're really buying, not all the ninja-speak hype they put on their website.

therickster
December 14, 2009, 11:47 PM
I agree, the ClassicArms site is hard to navigate and mostly ridiculous. But if you know what you want, it's functional.

smince
December 15, 2009, 06:18 AM
Like I said before, tell me why you would pay $450 for a WASR, then another $400 to have it fixed, that's $850 not including various taxes, shipping, FFL, NICS, etc. costs???Lot's of people didn't pay $450 for their WASR:p

$850 isn't a bad price to pay for an AK gone over by a craftsman like Jim Fuller.

atlanticfire
December 15, 2009, 07:14 AM
$850
With the prices right now you could go milled for that price!:what:
Its an AK people not a precision instromint!:rolleyes:

Z-Michigan
December 15, 2009, 10:24 AM
With the prices right now you could go milled for that price

But if you read the recent thread on "what's so great about milled" you will see that's like saying "and for an extra $500, you can get a carburetor instead of fuel injection!"

iyaoyas98
December 15, 2009, 10:43 AM
I've got a Sar-1 I picked up for $400 otd. It shoots straight, even though stuff is canted. It's a beater, and best represents what an AK is. I got a Saiga for $330 otd, then spent $180 on parts to dress it up it up how I want it. It's getting warranty work right now cause it showed up with a canted gas block. Can't comment on it yet.
I also got a SGL-21 in plum trimmin's that looks beautiful, everything true and lined up. I haven't ran it to the range yet, but It's going Sunday. It was $600 otd. It really depends on what you want. Right now, the Sar is my go to. Ugly as hell, and shouldn't hit the side of a barn at 100 yards, but somehow it manages to keep them together. For a functional gun, get a WASR and try it out. For internet pretty pictures, go with an Aresenal. :)

Uncle Mike
December 15, 2009, 01:06 PM
So...all these post and we STILL don't know which AK is the BEST AK!

For the sake of no argument, and without all the explanations...which AK is the crown jewel?

Z-Michigan
December 15, 2009, 01:55 PM
The one you can't have?

In all seriousness, the discontinued VEPR that Robinson Arms had been importing is possibly the nicest all-around AK that has been sold here. The Norincos might be the runner up, and Saigas, including the SGL series, would round out the top three. Just my opinion.

Uncle Mike
December 15, 2009, 02:00 PM
Like a dummy, I sold my Bulgarian SLR-95 to a guy who just had to have it.... hind sight!

memphisjim
December 15, 2009, 02:00 PM
saiga sporster dremel and parts

Grease Monkey
December 15, 2009, 02:03 PM
What all is to be converted on the Saiga?

Receiver has to be modified; the trigger is moved forward, among other things. I believe the mag well has to be modified for hi cap mags, too. This involves some welding and drilling, so is usually not recommended for the shade tree mechanics.

If you want a more authentic look, the gas block and front sight are changed out too.

ETA: Get a WASR. They're bargain basement, but actually pretty good.

memphisjim
December 15, 2009, 02:05 PM
you canfollow a video guide on youtube its on the web

Quentin
December 15, 2009, 05:49 PM
While that WASR tune-up certainly would improve the rifle, most don't need that much work. Anyone mechanically inclined and with common sense can improve a WASR themselves. If you're buying one face to face just pick out the best one they've got.

atlanticfire
December 15, 2009, 05:55 PM
"and for an extra $500, you can get a carburetor instead of fuel injection!"
BS, Milled is more ridged. If your gonna go all the way might as well do it right. And the prices of the AK market right now mine as well.

PCFlorida
December 15, 2009, 06:07 PM
Aim Surplus has several AK's including WASR's at $379.95

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/New_Long_Guns.html

Quentin
December 15, 2009, 06:09 PM
Atlanticfire, I think that analogy comparing receivers to fuel systems is pretty good. Might want to reread it.

Z-Michigan
December 15, 2009, 07:48 PM
BS, Milled is more ridged. If your gonna go all the way might as well do it right.

More ridged? Like Ruffles? :) Actually most of the milled receivers I've seen are less ridged, like regular Lay's.

As for rigidity, who cares? The bolt locks into the trunion. If you want more rigidity, get something with the 1.6mm stamped receiver (RPK, VEPR, Yugos). The milled receiver turns a cheap, light and handy gun into an expensive, heavy and clumsy gun. Might as well have a 16" FAL if you're going that way. Or a VZ58, except that those are lighter than even a stamped AK (much lighter than a milled AK).

But I digress...

FMJMIKE
December 15, 2009, 08:24 PM
Get the Saiga SGL-21 from K-var now !!! It is a great rifle for the money.

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 15, 2009, 08:27 PM
Receiver has to be modified; the trigger is moved forward, among other things. I believe the mag well has to be modified for hi cap mags, too. This involves some welding and drilling, so is usually not recommended for the shade tree mechanics.

If you want a more authentic look, the gas block and front sight are changed out too.

ETA: Get a WASR. They're bargain basement, but actually pretty good.

Partially correct. To make a Saiga accept standard capacity com-bloc magazines, you must drill and tap the trunion and install a bullet guide. The whole kit for that is $26. Next, you must grind off the "interdiction tab" at the back of the magazine well, and grind off a little bit of the magazine release latch.

For a more traditional look, you can simply get an AK gas tube, and a bolt-on handguard retainer. That can be a little pricey. I modified the front of two of my Saigas for a "traditional" AK look and I wouldn't do it again. The Gas Tube is $40, the bolt on retainer is $85. Not to mention another $30 or so for handguards. So almost $150 for cosmetics alone. No functional improvment. The stock Saiga handguard is actually VERY comfortable.

I must also mention that the $85 bolt on retainer isn't the greatest product. Good idea, but very high price. It's not as sturdy as a standard retainer as it simply bolts on, and does not have the teeth or lever of a standard retainer.

So, if you're gonna convert a Saiga, and you're gonna mess with the front, go big or go home. Either leave it stock, or do the work of pressing off the FSB/GB for a real retainer.

There's also a nice TAPCO handguard, two now actually, both designed for Saiga rifles, one's $40 the other is ±$55. Much better value than bolt on parts from Dinzag on a budget.

Atlantic Firearms
December 16, 2009, 07:45 AM
To jump in on the milled AK conversation , Milled AK rifles are considered to be the best AK to own if you have the extra money. They will be a bit more accurate than the standard stamped units . All of this being said if you are just looking for a gun to shoot and want to save a few bucks the stamped rifles work just fine. If you ever have a chance to watch a slow motion film of AK's you will see they have slot of slop in their action and this decreases accuracy but increases the reliability. The Milled receiver adds a much more rigid platform less slop and a bit more accuracy similar to a bolt action rifle vs semi auto.

Z-Michigan
December 16, 2009, 09:05 AM
Here's the recent thread debating milled vs. stamped AKs:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=491357

I disagree with some of Atlantic Firearms' comments above; I do not consider most milled AKs (sold in the US) to be superior to the stamped models. If you want to get a $1200 Arsenal with a milled receiver, or a Norinco/Polytech milled imported here before the Chinese import ban, those would be good. I would not want the variety of milled models that are put together from used parts kits of unknown origin by discount shops here in the US.

(However, I have bought from Atlantic and find him a great person to do business with.)

If you really want a milled gun, I would look at an SKS, VZ58, or Mini-30.

Grease Monkey
December 16, 2009, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Receiver has to be modified; the trigger is moved forward, among other things. I believe the mag well has to be modified for hi cap mags, too. This involves some welding and drilling, so is usually not recommended for the shade tree mechanics.

If you want a more authentic look, the gas block and front sight are changed out too.

ETA: Get a WASR. They're bargain basement, but actually pretty good.

Partially correct. To make a Saiga accept standard capacity com-bloc magazines, you must drill and tap the trunion and install a bullet guide. The whole kit for that is $26. Next, you must grind off the "interdiction tab" at the back of the magazine well, and grind off a little bit of the magazine release latch.

For a more traditional look, you can simply get an AK gas tube, and a bolt-on handguard retainer. That can be a little pricey. I modified the front of two of my Saigas for a "traditional" AK look and I wouldn't do it again. The Gas Tube is $40, the bolt on retainer is $85. Not to mention another $30 or so for handguards. So almost $150 for cosmetics alone. No functional improvment. The stock Saiga handguard is actually VERY comfortable.

I must also mention that the $85 bolt on retainer isn't the greatest product. Good idea, but very high price. It's not as sturdy as a standard retainer as it simply bolts on, and does not have the teeth or lever of a standard retainer.

So, if you're gonna convert a Saiga, and you're gonna mess with the front, go big or go home. Either leave it stock, or do the work of pressing off the FSB/GB for a real retainer.

There's also a nice TAPCO handguard, two now actually, both designed for Saiga rifles, one's $40 the other is ±$55. Much better value than bolt on parts from Dinzag on a budget.



Hey Dark Knight, PM send with a question. :cool:

nalioth
December 16, 2009, 12:52 PM
To jump in on the milled AK conversation , Milled AK rifles are considered to be the best AK to own if you have the extra money. They will be a bit more accurate than the standard stamped units . All of this being said if you are just looking for a gun to shoot and want to save a few bucks the stamped rifles work just fine. If you ever have a chance to watch a slow motion film of AK's you will see they have slot of slop in their action and this decreases accuracy but increases the reliability. The Milled receiver adds a much more rigid platform less slop and a bit more accuracy similar to a bolt action rifle vs semi auto. I'm sorry, but this is incorrect.



You guys should be wary of what is written by a salesman.

This is why "milled receivers are considered the best" when they were considered a stopgap measure in 1948 and dropped from production (by everyone but the Bulgarians) in 1959.

Arsenal, Inc has spent truckloads of money convincing the gullible American public that "milled receivers are DA SHIZZLE", when this is simply not the case.

Norinco982lover
December 16, 2009, 01:25 PM
I'm going to have to go ahead and ask for proof as well on the milled is more accurate than stamped statement:D You know I love atlantic firearms but...

I would think that perhaps milled MIGHT be more accurate than stamped in full auto because milled AK's are heavier but I cannot be certain of that.

~Norinco

atlanticfire
December 16, 2009, 06:50 PM
Sorry but I'm heading to the inlaws this weekend. I have off almost two weeks over the Christmas break. I will take my milled rifle and and shoot it against my friends Saiga. I have three different types of ammo and will try this with both irons and optics. I will create a new thread once I have had time to spent to do this. Sorry I can't do it sooner, as I'm tiring of these repeative threads. I guess it all comes down to if you have the money good, if you don't bad. . . . .

nalioth
December 16, 2009, 07:03 PM
Sorry but I'm heading to the inlaws this weekend. I have off almost two weeks over the Christmas break. I will take my milled rifle and and shoot it against my friends Saiga. I have three different types of ammo and will try this with both irons and optics. I will create a new thread once I have had time to spent to do this. Sorry I can't do it sooner, as I'm tiring of these repeative threads You'll be wasting your time, as far as proving anything to us.

The only thing you'll prove is "what is best for atlanticfire - milled or stamped?"

You don't shoot the same as I do (or anyone else).

Have fun :)

XD9GUY
December 16, 2009, 07:46 PM
Here is a good website to shop and compare. There is no point in paying much more than $500 for a decent AK that you can take straight to the range.

http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ak_firearms.aspx

Quentin
December 16, 2009, 09:47 PM
I think atlanticfire is right that milled receivers in general are more rigid and more accurate than stamped receivers. The AK was designed to be cheap, easy to assemble and just good enough yet extremely reliable. The stamped receiver was seen as a requirement to keep cost down but it didn't work at first, thus for a few years milled receivers were used.

I've seen that video of the AK barrel flexing wildly during fire and it would be interesting to see how a milled receiver compares. Still, we're not talking a tremendous difference and 50 million stamped receivers can't be all that bad! :D

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 16, 2009, 10:28 PM
There were many difficulties during the initial phase of production. The first production models had stamped sheet metal receivers. Difficulties were encountered in welding the guide and ejector rails, causing high rejection rates.[16] Instead of halting production, a heavy machined receiver was substituted for the sheet metal receiver.[17] This was a more costly process, but the use of machined receivers accelerated production as tooling and labor for the earlier Mosin-Nagant rifle's machined receiver were easily adapted. Partly because of these problems, the Soviets were not able to distribute large numbers of the new rifle to soldiers until 1956. During this time, production of the interim SKS rifle continued.[17]
Once manufacturing difficulties had been overcome, a redesigned version designated the AKM (M for "modernized" or "upgraded" — in Russian: (Автомат Калашникова Модернизированный [Avtomat Kalashnikova Modernizirovanniy]) was introduced in 1959.[18] This new model used a stamped sheet metal receiver

Some good info on the milled vs. stamped debate

Z-Michigan
December 16, 2009, 10:55 PM
I've seen that video of the AK barrel flexing wildly during fire and it would be interesting to see how a milled receiver compares.

If it's the video I think, it's really the cleaning rod flexing wildly, not the barrel.

Atlantic, do you have two similar user IDs here? Are they both the same person, or are they two different people?

TexanAviator
December 16, 2009, 10:59 PM
wrong thread.

Atlantic Firearms
December 17, 2009, 07:54 AM
You are en tilted to your Opinion on the milled AK ,but we have a daily & wide exposure to the AK series far more than the average Joe , our firm maintains a diverse collection of over 100 AK rifles covering milled , stamped , original imported Poly Techs through current builds . Several of the units are full auto , we also ship out approx 300 AK rifles a month of various varietys so we may see a bit more AK rifles than the average Joe and get a lot of feedback . The guys in our office & warehouse generally shoot here twice a month and these has been noted better accuracy with the Milled AK rifles over the stamped units . We are not Arsenal and not making this statement to sell Milled rifles only for discussion purposes . We can politley agree to disagree on this matter but would request to know where you have gained your info on the Milled rifles not being more accurate ? Again the above this is just our observations & opinion .

fyi , atlaticfir member is not the same as our firm.

Atlantic Firearms
December 17, 2009, 07:57 AM
Z-mich , if you watch a slow motion video of the AK firing the slop & flex is throughout the rifle not just the cleaning rod . It is fairly interesting to actually see .

iyaoyas98
December 17, 2009, 08:40 AM
My only issue with milled is the price. You can have a fairly nice DPMS or S&W AR for about the same money, and a lot more accuracy. I bet noone has ever thought of that one before.:neener:

To the op. Buy a wasr and have fun. If you decide you like the AK platform, you can sell it without a huge hit and get a "nicer" AK. Every gun I own can outshoot me, including my canted up Sar-1. I'm looking into handgrenades... ;)

atlanticfire
December 17, 2009, 10:01 AM
You don't shoot the same as I do (or anyone else).

Even if both rifles where fired from a lead sled? Hmmmm . . .

Atlantic Firearms
December 17, 2009, 10:09 AM
Yes no doubt the Milled rifles are much higher and for the average guy a well built stamped AK will do all they will ever need . Milled AK prices have became more resonable in the last 4 -5 months we now offer nice Milled AK rifles for $899 , Century just came out with a milled AK based off a Polish Kit for $699.00

iyaoyas98
December 17, 2009, 11:16 AM
I bought a SGL21 from you guys when they were super cheap. Nuttin' but love. :D

svaz
December 17, 2009, 11:27 AM
Go to Gunbroker, Guns America, etc., and find a good Maadi (http://www.ak-47.us/Egypt.php) (Egyptian, made on original Russian equipment, by Russian-trained techs).

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