Near-Perfect Hunting Cartridges...


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Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 12:47 AM
In my mind the perfect hunting cartridge would sail out as far as you like, damage no meat, reliably drop any size prey, with little recoil, and be inexpensive and available...since that doesn't exist...and never will, the following is my selection for the near perfect rifle cartridges and their respective uses (let the *constructive* arguing begin):


.22LR: Magnificent old chambering for small game such as squirrel, rabbit, and larger prey at short range with good shot placement. Added benefit of cheap and available ammunition.

.223Rem.: The choice of soldiers and groundhog hunters alike. This cartridge makes a great varmint and moderate size game round with flat trajectory, and many projectile options available for the task at hand. Relatively inexpensive and readily available ammunition is a added bonus. (.22-250 and .220Swift are honorable mentions but are much more costly)

.260Rem.: Introduced late in the past century, it has demonstrated itself to be a superb medium and large thin skinned game cartridge, the very flat trajectory and excellent BC makes the cartridge very effective with little recoil. (honorable mentions are the 6.5x55 and the 7mm-08)

.280Rem.: A near perfect large game cartridge with good trajectory and hard hitting power to take nearly any animal that strides the plains (or anywhere else) in NA, including most in the far north, whilst maintaining manageable recoil. (the .30-06 and .270 are honorable mentions and more cost-effective alternatives)

.30-30Win.: Generally packaged in a lightweight handy rifle, the cartridge seemingly doesn't exhibit any attributes that make a rifle cartridge great, but the low-recoil, inexpensive ammunition, adequate power, and quick handling that it affords makes it a cartridge that has tested the test of time.

.375H&H: This big belted magnum can solve nearly any problem that you might encounter on the NA continent and most on the great dark continent as well. It offers good trajectory and plenty of power to put down beasts in the far north. (honorable mentions are the .338WM and the .300WM, but are slightly more limited in application)

.45-70Govt.: This lumbering old cartridge has proved itself to be a great brush cartridge and can quickly slay all but the largest beast with brute force. It has a reputation for making a large hole that you "can eat right up to".


As you may note there are no wildcats (though a few are not common cartridges), and little mention of magnums (for I believe the vast majority of hunting does not require one). Some are quite old, and some more recent rounds, none are terribly costly in comparison to similar cartridges or their respective use. It seems lately that there have been quite a few threads about this or that new uber-super round (some that look promising...others just expensive) or why old reliable is or isn't good enough any more. What would make your list of the greatest cartridges for hunting North America?

Heck lets even make it a poll...

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janobles14
December 15, 2009, 01:22 AM
the .260 and .280 can both be covered by the .30-06. with varying bullet weights and styles its just as effective. otherwise i almost agree with them all!

also the .45-70 has never been really high on my list but i know it has its place.

Uncle Mike
December 15, 2009, 01:27 AM
Mav...you left out the .30-06! just an honorable mention!?!

What is wrong with you...!?! lol hehehe

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 01:50 AM
Mav...you left out the .30-06! just an honorable mention!?! What is wrong with you...!?I know, I know...wrath of the crazy .30-06ers and .308ers is a comin'. I just couldn't put it above the .280, and it fills nearly the same roll, I just like it a little better. I think that all cartridge sizes have a near-perfect bullet for it, and for the '06 it is 7mm.

Thank you both for the commentary, even if you are wrong. :neener:

Some may find this surprising, but I voted that I agreed 100%. :D

skiking
December 15, 2009, 01:58 AM
I would have swapped the .260 with a 7/08 and the .280 with the 300 Win Mag

R.W.Dale
December 15, 2009, 02:12 AM
I'm sorry but There simply isn't anything a 280/270/25-06 will do that the ORIGINAL 30/06 won't do better.

It's Long been my opinion that necking down a parent case is always a step down in performance and vise versa for going up

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 02:15 AM
It's Long been my opinion that necking down a parent case is always a step down in performance and vise versa for going upSometimes range and trajectory matters...do you really feel the same way about the .308Win. (.300Savage) case necked down? :uhoh:

tommyintx
December 15, 2009, 03:17 AM
Only thing i would have changed is swap with 260 with 243.. make 260 the honorable mention.. 280 also should have 308 as honorable mention.. other than that.. perfect list.

9mmepiphany
December 15, 2009, 03:22 AM
.22LR: Magnificent old chambering for small game such as squirrel, rabbit, and larger prey at short range with good shot placement. Added benefit of cheap and available ammunition.
an excellent choice that will never be replaced

.223Rem.: The choice of soldiers and groundhog hunters alike. This cartridge makes a great varmint and moderate size game round with flat trajectory, and many projectile options available for the task at hand. Relatively inexpensive and readily ammunition is a added bonus. (.22-250 and .220Swift are honorable mentions but are much more costly)
since were talking about hunting cartridges, i think the .223 has been suppassed in function by the .204 Ruger

.260Rem.: Introduced late in the past century, it has demonstrated itself to be a superb medium and large thin skinned game cartridge, the very flat trajectory and excellent BC makes the cartridge very effective with little recoil. (honorable mentions are the 6.5x55 and the 7mm-08)
i find the .260 the best all-around hunting cartridge with power out of all proportion to it's size, accuracy at extended ranges and low recoil. it's predecessor the 6.5x55mm as the power to be used on everything up to the size of elk/moose

.280Rem.: A near perfect large game cartridge with good trajectory and hard hitting power to take nearly any animal that strides the plains (or anywhere else) in NA, including most in the far north, whilst maintaining manageable recoil. (the .30-06 and .270 are honorable mentions and more cost-effective alternatives)
it's function is overlapped by the .260

.30-30Win.: Generally packaged in a lightweight handy rifle, the cartridge seemingly doesn't exhibit any attributes that make a rifle cartridge great, but the low-recoil, inexpensive ammunition, adequate power, and quick handling that it affords makes it a cartridge that has tested the test of time.
like the .280, it's function is also overlapped by the .260

.375H&H: This big belted magnum can solve nearly any problem that you might encounter on the NA continent and most on the great dark continent as well. It offers good trajectory and plenty of power to put down beasts in the far north. (honorable mentions are the .338WM and the .300WM, but are slightly more limited in application)
this old H&H takes up where the .260 leaves off and does it with less flash and bang than the .338WM and fall ssuppasses the .300WM

.45-70Govt.: This lumbering old cartridge has proved itself to be a great brush cartridge and can quickly slay all but the largest beast with brute force. It has a reputation for making a large hole that you "can eat right up to".
there is little that the old .45-70 can do that the .375 H&H can't do better



so my personal battery has reduced your list from 7 to 4. i almost bypassed the .22lr because there isn't much that a .22lr does in a rifle that couldn't also be done with a .22lr handgun and what the handgun couldn't do could be done with the .204 Ruger.

i was happy to see you leave off the 30-06. it and the .270 exact an unnecessary price in recoil. the .260 or the .375 H&H easily cover the same range with more effectiveness

R.W.Dale
December 15, 2009, 03:30 AM
.do you really feel the same way about the .308Win. (.300Savage) case necked down?

Yes in fact I do

there isn't that much a 100grn 243win a 120grn .260 or a 140grn 7mm-08 can do that a 168grain or slippery 150-155grain .308" projectile won't do just as well. The difference in all these is likely a great deal less than you think. A value that would best expressed in TENTHS of an inch to 300 from a 200yd ZERO because remember this thread is about HUNTING cartridges and not 1000yd group shooters

Case in point look at 6mm BR it does a good 90% of what 243 can but with only 70% of the case capacity

A list I'd compiled for another thread

The fattest shooting loads for the following cartridges based on a 300yd shot from a 200yd zero

243 win/ 55grn Winchester silvertip- ---4.29" (varmint load)
25-06/ 85grn Federal Nosler B-tip ----4.49" (varmint load)
260 rem/ 100grn Federal B-tip-------- -6.18" (deer load)
270win/ 100grn Federal Barnes TSX----5.28" (deer load)
7mm08/ 120grn Nosler B-tip-----------6.52" (deer load)
308win/ 125grn Nosler B-tip-----------6.27" (deer load)
30-06/ 150grn Hornady light mag SST-6.36" (deer load)

Bobarino
December 15, 2009, 04:21 AM
ya, i'd have to say you left out .30-06 and .308. having to choose one of the two, i'd pick .308. i'd replace .280 and .260 with .270 for more available ammo and flatter trajectory than the .280 while still being able to take the same game, given proper shot placement.

other than that, i think you did pretty good :)

Nematocyst
December 15, 2009, 05:03 AM
Let's make this simpler by staying on North America.

These 4 will do everything you need to do.
In a pinch, I'd be fine with only 3 (leave out #2)

.22LR
.260 Rem. or 7mm-08
.30-30Win
.45-70Govt

rskent
December 15, 2009, 06:54 AM
Letís make it even simpler.
.22LR
.223
30 06
12 gauge

Steve

Shytheed Dumas
December 15, 2009, 07:19 AM
I would have had the .30-06 or .308 in place of the .260 and .280 Rem. I also like a lever action in .35 Rem better than a 30-30 any day. Those are preferential and either your list or mine would cover North America perfectly.

Sav .250
December 15, 2009, 08:17 AM
Around and around we go.............:)

Vern Humphrey
December 15, 2009, 08:50 AM
Let’s make it even simpler.
.22LR
.223
30 06
12 gauge
That's how I'd go -- albeit here in the Ozarks, I like the .22 Hornet, too.

gondorian
December 15, 2009, 10:09 AM
I think that the .260 is too expensive in factory ammo to be considered "near perfect" especially when you could have a .243 and a 30-06 for just a little more, both in terms of guns and ammo.

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 10:38 AM
Let's make this simpler by staying on North America.

These 4 (.22LR, .260 Rem. or 7mm-08, .30-30Win, .45-70Govt) will do everything you need to do.I was actually keeping it to NA, only mentioning the use of the .375H&H in Africa as an alternate use and sidebar, if we included Africa I would have added a larger round (on the order of .416Rigby/.458Lott/.470NE). Also I don't consider myself qualified to accurately choose an acceptable "Elephant Cartridge" as I have no experience with very large, dangerous African game.
As far as your choices (which echo many others), while it is true that you can do nearly everything with them, it won't do it well in all areas especially where longer range is needed. Also there are a few cartridges that are somewhat redundant (notably the .22, .30-30, and .45-70) but these were added to the list due to their quick handling/follow-upshots and/or inexpensiveness when compared to their contemporary counterpart.

Additionally, to all the folks that suggested "12 Ga"...I have never seen a rifle chambered for it...so it doesn't count. :neener:

GunTech
December 15, 2009, 12:04 PM
260 is a superior long range target cartridge - exactly why you see it in a lot of tactical rifle matches. The selection and availability of hunting bullets is still lacking, and I say that as a huge fan of the 260. I would pick the 7mm-08 over the 260 for hunting. It's an improved 7x57 and that round is a near perfect light game cartridge - a perfect balance of power, recoil accuracy and with a large selection of good BC bullets.

308 and 30-06 are classics in that they are highly popular and are former military service rounds - which in large measure are responsible for their popularity. As a result, they have a huge selection of loadings. The advantage of the 30-06 over the 308 is small unless you hand load.

30-30 is, IMO, and obsolete round. Ballistics are poor for the cartridge size, and most loadings feature bullets that make it safe in tubular magazines. The 7.62x39, for example, can deliver very similar performance in a much smaller package. But while it may fail the 'perfect' test, it is extremely popular and there are millions of guns chambered for it. But there's nothing the 30-30 will do that the 308 and 30-06 won't do better

375 is the perfect African light rifle. It's application in NA is limited. Many American hunters seem to thing that bigger is always better, and that huge calibers are required for non-dangerous game, where a lighter cartridge and good shot placement are a much better answer.

45-70 is another example of an obsolete cartridge that remains popular. The case is far larger than necessary only because this is a BP round meant to be fired in guns that are noted rated for modern pressures. It would be simple to build a round with identical performance in a much smaller package. One has to wonder if the 460 S&W could offer similar ballistics, while allowing lever guns to also fire 454 and 45LC

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 12:21 PM
Many American hunters seem to thing that bigger is always better, and that huge calibers are required for non-dangerous game, where a lighter cartridge and good shot placement are a much better answer.Agreed, it was included to take care of the beasts (Kodiak and Polar Bear) that roam the far north.

One has to wonder if the 460 S&W could offer similar ballistics, while allowing lever guns to also fire 454 and 45LCSince its conception I too have thought that it would make a near ideal rifle cartridge for a lever rifle due to the variable loadings, the 454s use would be limited (filled by the 460S&W) but the use of the LC could be beneficial for additional cartridge capacity and/or cheaper target rounds. Don't forget you can fire .410shot out of them as well making it the near ideal survival rifle IMO (ideal would be a over and under .22LR and .460S&W). That said I still enjoy the .45-70Govt., classic thumper.

:)

jbech123
December 15, 2009, 12:32 PM
Let's make this simpler by staying on North America.

These 4 will do everything you need to do.
In a pinch, I'd be fine with only 3 (leave out #2)

.22LR
.260 Rem. or 7mm-08
.30-30Win
.45-70Govt

If we are talking hunting rifles, the last 3 have significant overlap. I love the 260 as a target shooter, but a 308 allows heavier bullets for hunting and would cover the last 3 on that list. So I'd go...

.22lr
.223
.308

which coincidentally is what I have...

memphisjim
December 15, 2009, 12:35 PM
no handguns or shot guns?

Uncle Mike
December 15, 2009, 12:36 PM
+ 1 guntech.

Art Eatman
December 15, 2009, 01:26 PM
As a handloader, the '06 fills a lot of niches. I have loaded 00 Buck to .22 velocities. 110-grain for coyotes and jackrabbits. Etc, etc.

But with that said, I'd just as soon have a .22 rimfire, a .223 or .243 for mid-range performance and then the '06 for everything else in the lower 48.

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 01:34 PM
no handguns or shot guns?Well it is "rifle country"... :rolleyes:

Vern Humphrey
December 15, 2009, 01:42 PM
There, I agree. I have five .30-06s; an M1 Garand, an old-style Ruger model 77, a pre-64 Winchester Model 70, and two 03A3 Springfields (one Remington, and one Smith-Corona.)

I have a Hammond Game Getter in .30-06. This is a cartridge case that appears to have an off-center primer pocket. The "primer pocket" is really a .22 rimfire chamber, positioned so the firing pit hits the rim of the case. With a brown (low power) Remington nail-setting blank, it shoots an 00 buckshot to about 700 fps. They print right at the top of the thick bottom crosshair at 25 yards. They're ideal for those times when you're sitting on a deer stand and the squirrels try to carry you off.

I like Ed Harris "The Load" in my .30-06s -- that's 13.0 grains of Red Dot behind a 160 grain Lee cast bullet. With the bullet cast of wheel weights, that's pretty cheap shooting.

For deer I like a 150-grain bullet at around 2600 fps, while for mulies and elk, I go with a 180 grain Nosler Partition Jacket at around 2700 fps. A good do-anything load is a 165 grain bullet at about 2900 fps.

Jeff Cooper was right, the .30-06 is just "too good."

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 01:58 PM
I just realized that I left off a good cartridge in the .375H&H "honorable mention" section...the 9.3x64Brenneke is a splendid cartridge for when the big Holland and Holland just won't fit in the action, and can do anything the H&H can for work in NA.

Also, while I could have left a few cartridges/categories off, as some have suggested, I felt that each one had enough merit to deserve a spot, they just seemed perfect for one region/circumstance/game and could not be ignored. I am not saying that everyone needs all of the above, just that each serve a particular instance very well and may be applicable.

:)

Uncle Mike
December 15, 2009, 02:27 PM
As they say Mav....you can't successfully argue with 'opinion'!

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 02:31 PM
As they say Mav....you can't successfully argue with 'opinion'!So your saying my list of cartridge choices isn't fact?...blasphemy! :D

wishin
December 15, 2009, 05:16 PM
.243/6mm needs to be in there somewhere.

MJR007
December 15, 2009, 06:18 PM
I agree with Krochus on this one. More importance should be placed on the bullet than what brass it came out of. Do you really think a deer would notice the difference if it was shot at 237yards with a 243, a 25 Souper, a 260, a 7mm-08, or a 308. I own or have owned all these rifles and my wife’s recently shot out 308 will be rebarreled in a 308. We as hunters over think a lot.

HoosierQ
December 15, 2009, 06:22 PM
I voted close but no cigar or whatever that was. I would think any such list would really need to include 30-06 and/or .308 and something 7mm (pick one).

Good picks on 22lr, .223, and 30-30 though.

45-70? Maybe not so much. Good caliber to be sure but...

So a good list but not perfect.

ArmedBear
December 15, 2009, 07:05 PM
.30-30 really isn't a cartridge. It's a rifle, if you get my drift. Nobody shoots .30-30 for its intrinsic merits. Lots of people shoot a 94 or 336 for its intrinsic merits -- and it happens to chamber a .30-30. But if you're listing cartridges, I think you can ditch it.

Likewise, I really like the .45-70. In a single-shot BPC rifle, that's what I'd want. It's found a niche in the Guide Gun, too. But again, we're talking about particular rifles that are appealing, and the cartridge just comes along for the ride.

The .223 is far from perfect. It's just really, really common due to NATO adoption. If that's the criterion for "perfect", the .260 and .280 would have to go from the list. The .22-250 is THE .22 centerfire round, if it's chosen for its hunting merits.

Do you really think a deer...

That's where we're going to have differences of opinion. I can only get one deer tag per season, unless I want to grossly overpay. Our deer are a lot bigger than what some people hunt. I can also get an elk tag, a bear tag, and most likely, can draw a pronghorn tag. We have moose, bighorns and mountain goats, also, with tougher drawings, and buffalo are available, too. So, my idea of "North American game" is not "whitetail".

The terrain and game can favor some long shots. Since I don't shoot prairie dogs at the moment, I'd trade .223, .260, .280, .375 and .45-70 for just two: .257 Wby and .338 Win Mag. One for flat shooting, the other for "oomph" at range.

Now is a .338 WinMag "perfect" for a hunter whose game and terrain are a good match for a .30-30? HELL NO! It's expensive and high-recoil, and the guns that shoot it are either heavy or they kick like mules.

But would I want to hunt moose or mountain goats with a .30-30? No. It would be better than a sharpened stick, but it sure wouldn't be "perfect" by any stretch.:)

What is "perfect" for me? A .30-06 comes pretty close, considering ALL factors, which include price, availability, versatility, and recoil. Had the '03A3 been chambered for a 7mm bullet instead, then the .280 probably would be the choice.

What is theoretically perfect? There may be no such round for all of North America. That's why there are so many of them. If a round is commercially successful, then at least a critical mass of people found said round to be "perfect" for something or other.:)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 15, 2009, 07:40 PM
AB speaks wisely, but I must disagree strongly with this:

The .22-250 is THE .22 centerfire round, if it's chosen for its hunting merits.

Said it before and I'll say it again. For the average guy shooting a FACTORY rifle with standard factory twist rates, then .223 Rem is several heads and shoulders above the .22-250 as a LARGE game hunting round. Less speed is GOOD when talking about small frangible bullets, and an already-very-high-vel-round (with the .223), and a higher twist and heavier bullets (found with .223 rifles & factory loads) are much preferred for large game, over a slower twist and light varmint bullets (found with .22-250 rifles & factory loads). :p

So I would say:

The .223 Rem is THE .22 centerfire round, if it's chosen for its hunting merits. But don't choose any .22 centerfire for big game. (or rimfire for that matter).

Varminting is a different story, but that ain't really "hunting".

But I agree with all the OPs choices, except for .30-30 win perhaps. .260 rem is THE optimal goldilocks round, in my view, if you do NOT include bison, large meese, large bears, and African plains game. .280 rem is THE optimal goldilocks round in my view, if you DO include bison, large meese, large bears, and African plains game. Good calls! :)

scchokedaddy
December 15, 2009, 07:54 PM
I believe this question could never be answered. What ever you are comfortable with and have confidence in is "perfect round" for you. I have known people who would'nt shoot anything bigger than 22 250 for deer, and some that won't shoot anything smaller than 45 70. Are they wrong? They are all good shots and take care to not to just shoot but to place humane shots. Now I know there are some who think just put crosshairs on brown and pull trigger, then wonder whats wrong with their rifle. Even more unhappy hunters that I have run into think you don't need to check zero ever. That said I'll get off my soapbox. I really don't think any of yall are like this, but these situations seem to be the most common causes of chamber bashing rants. That and trying to shoot past ones ability. Most rifles will far outshoot their owners ability. Sorry for rambling on, but I have sure enjoyed all comments on this thread. By the way #1-22 rifle, # 2 243 or 6mm, #3 308,#4 7rem mag.
Just my favorites, but really love 308 marlin 1 bad round, just too new to put on list. It realy hammers from 50yds to 150 yds. looking for chance to air it out to 200yds, thats what its zeroed in for.
Sorry again Good Luck aqnd God Bles

52grain
December 15, 2009, 09:28 PM
The only .30 caliber round is the .30-30? No .30-06 or .308?

Redneck with a 40
December 15, 2009, 10:06 PM
1) 22 magnum, more power than 22 LR but not super expensive.

2) .223 Rem, a classic varmint cartridge that does good job.

3) .308 Win, excellent medium to big game hunting and target shooting cartridge.

4) 300 Win Mag, for Bears and Moose.

:D

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 10:33 PM
I would think any such list would really need to include 30-06 and/or .308 and something 7mm (pick one).When did .280Rem. quit being a 7mm? I guess you mean that I need a metric round...

But I agree with all the OPs choices, except for .30-30 win perhaps.Thanks, Doc...I think you're the first. As AB pointed out the .30-30 (and the .45-70) was chosen mainly due to the rifles it is chambered in, although I suppose all of the others were as well.

:)

ArmedBear
December 15, 2009, 10:41 PM
When did .280Rem. quit being a 7mm?

Officially? In 1981.:D

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_mm_Express_Remington

Varminting is a different story, but that ain't really "hunting".


Yes, but if you count out varminting, the .223 isn't really good for much at all, in the field. At least it's nowhere near "perfect". And if you do include varminting, the .22-250 eclipsed it years ago and shows no sign of backing down.

(BTW I've seen the pictures of 90 lb. deer shot with a .223 at 50 yards. That's not relevant to where I live, and it's not a "perfect" deer round simply because it's been used on deer.)

Maverick223
December 15, 2009, 10:57 PM
Officially? In 1981.You are absolutely right...the case is the same...the bullet is different...the old one took a 7.23mm (.284cal), the new one takes a .284cal (7.23mm) projectile. Dang Europeans complicating things with that metric schmetrik mumbo jumbo. :D

And yes 7.23mm/.284cal is the exact same projectile used in 7mm-08/7mmRM/7mmMauser and many more...

federalfarmer
December 16, 2009, 01:11 AM
Good debate! I'll bite...

.22LR
.270 Win
.375 H&H

Done! Maybe you could twist my arm with something short action, so add a .243

Maverick223
December 16, 2009, 02:07 AM
Good debate!Thanks, that is a abbreviated kit, but good choices nonetheless.

:)

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 16, 2009, 02:13 AM
AB, you apparently read only a small portion of what I wrote above.

Yes, but if you count out varminting, the .223 isn't really good for much at all, in the field.

Right, you are correct - it is not. But it's STILL better than the .22-250 out in the field, if you count out varminting. So ditto that quote as to the .22-250, but even MORE so than the .223. As I explained in some detail above.

At least it's nowhere near "perfect".

Right. The .223 is a pretty poor choice for large game, and the .22-250 is a few measures even worse (for the vast majority of people), as I explained in some detail.

And if you do include varminting, the .22-250 eclipsed it years ago and shows no sign of backing down.

That much is true, yes.

None of this changes the FACT that .223 Rem is clearly superior choice for deer than the .22-250, among two poor choices. :p

Uncle Mike
December 16, 2009, 02:40 AM
I don't know...but if I'm poppin' pasture poodles I really want a 22-250...never saw much use or sense in hunting large game such as deer with a high speed 22 caliber bullet!

Some have done it, and I have done it, but IMHO I think it is ill to do so!

If you think you are going to drive that 22 projectile into the vital areas of a deer sized animal, with any consistency and reliability....you might want to play the lottery more often...just my opinion!

I would more so favor a explosive projectile and neck shots with such minuscule bullets!
I mean with that tiny tim I would want to blow chunks...the neck is about as thick as a well rounded ground hog, is it not?

I'll agree with you Tad, neither the 223 or 22-250 is a good choice for deer.

Nematocyst
December 16, 2009, 03:03 AM
30-30 is, IMO, and obsolete round.I'm laughing over here. :rolleyes:

scythefwd
December 16, 2009, 03:32 AM
I'll bite...

.22lr / mag - your choice.
.243 - varmit/midsized game
.300 wm - larger deer / dangerous game (if reloading... it can do everything the .30-06 can do)
12 GA shotgun - for those who can't use rifles to hunt


For those that say people only choose the .30-30 because of the firearms that shoot it... I'll have to disagree. I only own 1 .30-30 right now, but I plan on correcting that.... haven't decided on what flavor of gun yet though. I am thinking single shot or another bolt action.

blackops
December 16, 2009, 03:34 AM
Replace the 260 with the 270. Replace the 280 with the 300winmag. Just get the 30-30 out of there no matter what, I don't even what to look at that cartridge!!!!

GunTech
December 16, 2009, 10:13 AM
If you think you are going to drive that 22 projectile into the vital areas of a deer sized animal, with any consistency and reliability....you might want to play the lottery more often...just my opinion!

I think that modern bullets have really changed the game for the 223. We kill a lot of white tail here with that cartridge. You just have to understand the limitations - shorter ranges and careful shots. Performance of rounds like the TSX are a game changer for the 223, and the cartridge can be put into light, easy to handle and accurate rifles.

Bear in mind that the 22LR has accounted for a lot of deer, and the person behind the trigger is more important than just about any other factor.

GunTech
December 16, 2009, 10:22 AM
.30-30 really isn't a cartridge. It's a rifle, if you get my drift. Nobody shoots .30-30 for its intrinsic merits. Lots of people shoot a 94 or 336 for its intrinsic merits -- and it happens to chamber a .30-30. But if you're listing cartridges, I think you can ditch it.

Likewise, I really like the .45-70. In a single-shot BPC rifle, that's what I'd want. It's found a niche in the Guide Gun, too. But again, we're talking about particular rifles that are appealing, and the cartridge just comes along for the ride.

Exactly. The cartridges are large for their performance, and hampered by the requirement that they be safe in tubular magazines. They are also limited by the requirement that they be safe to fire in older guns. 30-30 has a SAAMI max of 42,000 psi, necessitating a large case, while cartridges like 308 are in the 60,000+ psi range. 45-70 is down in the high 20s.

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 11:51 AM
Tad and GunTech: whatever the .223's outside potential may be, given the right bullets, distances, deer size and weight, etc., it's not a "near-perfect hunting cartridge", which is what the list is supposed to be.:)

That's all I was saying about it: the .223 is capable of some things, but I can't think of any sort of hunting that it's nearly-perfect at, other than, perhaps, eliminating groundhogs from a golf course.

The reason I bought my first .223/5.56 rifle was that, at the time, I could buy military-issue Federal ammo for $2.99 per box of 20. This was in the earlier part of the current decade. Today, I wouldn't have ever bought the thing in the first place.

(Yeah, I'd still have ARs, but I'm not referring to ARs in this post.)

Uncle Mike
December 16, 2009, 12:05 PM
eliminating groundhogs from a golf course.

You would kill a groundhog if it were on a golf course...!?!

I say let the whistle pigs have the golf courses, shoot the .... never mind.

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 12:10 PM
http://static.open.salon.com/files/caddyshack-3-lst0190321252859432.jpg

Uncle Mike
December 16, 2009, 12:33 PM
HEHEHEHEHEHE

Think of all the fun stuff we could do with all those useless golf courses. And I mean there is a LOT of them!

Water-Man
December 16, 2009, 12:59 PM
.280 category - should have been .30-06 with .280 having honorable mention.
.30-30 category - should have .35 Remington with honorable mention

Good job never-the-less!

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 01:19 PM
I don't have a .35 Remington, but I've been tempted by a 336 in the chambering.

Any opinions about the .35?

I've read everything from "forget the .30-30! Get the .35," all the way to "the .35 has a lousy trajectory for deer, but isn't big enough for elk, so just get the .30-30."

BushyGuy
December 16, 2009, 01:32 PM
i have the most important calibers in my gun safe and 1 as u listed is on layaway for my deer rifle for next year i used the 12 gauge this year with slugs-last year i used my Model 70 (sold).


most important SHTF calibers (IMHO) heres what i have already

.22lr-Savage semi-auto rifle
9mm-Ruger SR9and Taurus PT92c
12 gauge-Rem 870
.223 REM-Bushmaster
30-30 Win (coming soon to my safe)-Model 94AE

i need two more to complete my list
.308-Ruger or Winchester
.45 acp-Taurus or Ruger

R.W.Dale
December 16, 2009, 01:55 PM
I don't have a .35 Remington, but I've been tempted by a 336 in the chambering.

Any opinions about the .35?

I've read everything from "forget the .30-30! Get the .35," all the way to "the .35 has a lousy trajectory for deer, but isn't big enough for elk, so just get the .30-30."
After you own a 35 chambered levergun particularly a 336 you'll throw rocks at the same gun chambered for 30-30 and yes I've owned both.

Or just listen to what the folks who've owned both say.

9 in 10 of those will choose the .35 every time

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 01:58 PM
After you own a 35 chambered levergun particularly a 336 you'll throw rocks at the same gun chambered for 30-30 and yes I've owned both

Details?

I have a reprint of vintage Buzzacott, wherein he writes that the .30-30 is really only good for small game. This was in 1913. So you're not alone in your opinion. I'm just curious about the specific reasons that people like the .35.

Water-Man
December 16, 2009, 02:10 PM
I've hunted and killed deer and black bear for several years with a .35 Rem.. Distances out to 150 yds. It has better knock-down power than the .30-30. I use 150gr. Remington Core-Lokt for deer and 200gr. for bear. I hear the Hornady LEVERevolution ammo is good but I don't know first-hand.

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 02:11 PM
I hear the Hornady LEVERevolution ammo is good but I don't know first-hand.

It's sure accurate. That I've seen first-hand.

R.W.Dale
December 16, 2009, 02:15 PM
Details?

I have a reprint of vintage Buzzacott, wherein he writes that the .30-30 is really only good for small game. This was in 1913. So you're not alone in your opinion. I'm just curious about the specific reasons that people like the .35.
1 If you reload bullets are WAY cheaper 38/357 bullets shoot great

2 significantly more powerful than 30-30 giving you a good 50 to 75 yds more range should you need it

3 a bigger hole is always better

4 used Marlin 30-30's are a dime a dozen, but you almost never have trouble getting your asking price when sellin a 35

5 without a pesky rim a 336 is way easier to load when it's chambered for 35

6 wal mart sells ammo for both so why settle for ground beef when for a couple dollars more you can eat steak.

This isn't saying the 30-30 is crap but it is saying that the same rifle for 35remington is just much better

Water-Man
December 16, 2009, 02:15 PM
I'll have to give it a try.

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 02:32 PM
Details?

I have a reprint of vintage Buzzacott, wherein he writes that the .30-30 is really only good for small game. This was in 1913. So you're not alone in your opinion. I'm just curious about the specific reasons that people like the .35.
__________________


Having for years hunted hogs and deer and taken a few black bear with .30-30 ( and ancient 336 I've owned for better than 35 years) I'd have to dispute his statement , though I may well agree with the folks stating that a .35 is better. I've just never found a reason to purchase a .35 since I already own the 336 and a Guide Gun in .45-70.

And the .45-70 is going up for sale , the .30-30 I'll keep forever , though my son keeps trying to talk me out of it since he shot both his first deer and first hog with it.

It's still a relatively decent brush gun , though admittedly useless much beyond the 125 yard mark and I tend to try and keep shots with it to a 100 yards or under.

Bluenote
December 16, 2009, 02:39 PM
don't have a .35 Remington, but I've been tempted by a 336 in the chambering.

Any opinions about the .35?

I've read everything from "forget the .30-30! Get the .35," all the way to "the .35 has a lousy trajectory for deer, but isn't big enough for elk, so just get the .30-30."
__________________


Perfectly viable brush caliber , a bit oddball nowadays but if you run across a decent deal grab it up. I've already got a .30-30 so personally I don't need another brush rifle in the .30 or .30 plus range. You might consider just going to .45-70 if you want a lever action brush type gun. More expense in powder and lead ,more recoil ,but a bigger slug and more power. I've nothing but good things to say about the Guide Gun I bought a few years back ,even though I'm currently cutting down ( who really needs 20 rifles?) to maybe half a dozen 'keepers'.

Maverick223
December 16, 2009, 05:17 PM
most important SHTF calibers (IMHO)Not talking about SHTF, unless you think hunting zombie deer is a possibility...just plain 'ole huntin'. I have a whole different list (though some are repeats) for social engagements.

9 in 10 of those will choose the .35 every timeI guess I fall somewhere in between, I like both, but have to give the .30-30 the nod due to commonality and inexpensive cartridges (assuming no reloading). Despite the slight size and power difference I don't believe that either has any significant advantage (offers more versatility) over the other.

It's (LeveRevolution) sure accurate. That I've seen first-hand.+1, great stuff, and relatively inexpensive for the .45-70, unfortunately not as cheap for the .30-30 (when compared to other .30-30 hunting cartridges).

Thank you all for commenting and sharing your views. :)

lopezni
December 16, 2009, 10:45 PM
The definition of your thread is the 6.5x55 swede.

Water-Man
December 16, 2009, 10:55 PM
My favorite caliber!

Maverick223
December 16, 2009, 11:17 PM
The definition of your thread is the 6.5x55 swede.Great cartridge, but not good enough to do everything in NA (think squirrel and kodiak), though it may be good enough for your area and the game you pursue.

:)

Yellowtail3
December 21, 2009, 09:03 PM
I'm a hunter, and I'm all about function, so here's my list:

1. .22 for plinking, squirrels, plinking, teaching daughters, starting new shooters

2. 30-30 for deer. It is a 99% solution; most of the time a 100% solution

3. .270 for those late season hunts when I can see a lot further (though a 308 or 30-06 will do as well)

4. 45/70 - because I want a Marlin 1895 so chambered, for flattening deer near briars, and in case I get to go bear hunting in Alaska...

I see the 30-30 disparaged by folks who think themselves informed.

heh heh heh

Some tout the .35 as being greatly superior, which it is not. I've shot and hunted wtih both (I own a 30-30). If starting from scratch - and you reload? - a .35 is slightly more potent choice, but the diff is inconsequential for deer hunting. The idea - did someone put it forward? - the idea that the .35 is a longer-ranged rifle is misleading and incorrect.

Heartshot with 30-30 (150gr Federals) last week at about 150 yards -
http://forum.trianglefreeforum.com/download/file.php?id=91

Maverick223
December 21, 2009, 09:11 PM
I see the 30-30 disparaged by folks who think themselves informed.They just don't know any better. ;) Not bad choices, all are on the list save for one honorable mention.

:)

ArmedBear
December 21, 2009, 09:15 PM
Hey Yellowtail3, what's that animal under your .30-30?

99% solution? LOL Not here.

Still, I wouldn't disparage the .30-30 for what it does well. That's just not anything I can count on, in the Intermountain West. Sometimes, it would be just the ticket, but its limitations could just as soon cost you the opportunity to take a shot. We can see a lot farther than it will shoot -- and so can the deer, which can be over 400 lbs. I work with a woman who bagged a DOE that weighed over 400 lbs., two years ago, at 400 yards, because they just wouldn't let anyone get closer, and the season was about to end. That's not exactly a .30-30's forte.

Oh, yeah... We get one tag per season, unless we are willing to pay $300 for a second one... No tromping around in the woods just harvesting whatever we see, here.

But... I was merely quoting Buzzacott (a really worthwhile read -- really funny in 2009).

The only point is that the idea that a .30-30 is all you ever need and is good for almost everything is something that many people didn't believe, even 100 years ago.

I do like Marlin lever guns, and that's why I'd end up with a .30-30 -- not because I set out to acquire a gun in the caliber.:)

Uncle Mike
December 21, 2009, 09:20 PM
Well, I'm all hung up on the 338-06 now...with side thoughts of the 338 Federal!

Maverick223
December 21, 2009, 09:22 PM
99% solution? LOL Not here.Have to agree with that...it is a great cartridge, but I don't believe it is a 99% solution for anywhere (even here in NC), and the list was compiled to represent NA as a whole not one region. That said, I stand behind it as one of the greatest hunting cartridges due to its strong points and cost-effectiveness.

Well, I'm all hung up on the 338-06 now...with side thoughts of the 338 Federal!.338-06 gets my vote...furgit them newfangled Federales. :D

ArmedBear
December 21, 2009, 09:22 PM
.338 Federal velocities are okay for a light rifle, but they're not going to give the .338 WinMag a run for its money.

What's really impressive about the .338-06 is that it seems to deliver 165 grain .30-06 velocities, but with 200 grain bullets.

saturno_v
December 21, 2009, 09:26 PM
significantly more powerful than 30-30 giving you a good 50 to 75 yds more range should you need it

a bigger hole is always better



Krochus

At least in their standard commercial form (Remchesteral and others), the 30-30 and 35 Rem are ballistic twins, I do not really see any significant more power for the 35.

A 200 gr. 35 bullet has worse SD and BC compared to a 170 gr. 30-30 pill

I really did not expect by a person with your knowledge to mention the argument "a bigger hole is better".....come on a difference between a .30 and a .35 cal???!!!

saturno_v
December 21, 2009, 09:30 PM
375H&H: This big belted magnum can solve nearly any problem that you might encounter on the NA continent and most on the great dark continent as well. It offers good trajectory and plenty of power to put down beasts in the far north. (honorable mentions are the .338WM and the .300WM, but are slightly more limited in application)



Maverick

I do not agree on the 338 WM.

IMHO it's a more versatile choice compared to the 375 H&H
It has slightly less energy at the muzzle (but the 338 has better SD which helps penetration) but it shoots flatter and hits harder at longer distances (it has a much better BC in typical bullet weights for the two calibers).


Where the heck is the 30-06 in your list???!!! :D

Maverick223
December 21, 2009, 09:34 PM
...come on a difference between a .30 and a .35 cal?It certainly can make a difference...in some cases a pretty big one (like in the .35 Whelen), but I have never been overly impressed with the .35Rem., it cannot do much if anything that the good ole' .30-30 cannot, and at much less expense (for the non-reloader). The .30-30 and .35Rem. are on equal terms as far as I am concerned, and both will greatly benefit from the new LeveRevolution bullets.

I do not agree on the 338 WMOkay.

:)

saturno_v
December 21, 2009, 09:36 PM
I have a reprint of vintage Buzzacott, wherein he writes that the .30-30 is really only good for small game. This was in 1913. So you're not alone in your opinion. I

Armedbear

For Elmer Keith the 270 Win was a "decent coyote cartridge" while for Jack O'Connor was adequate Lion Medicine......opinions are like a...holes, everybody has one!!! :D

Yellowtail3
December 21, 2009, 09:36 PM
The .30-30 and .35Rem. are on equal terms as far as I am concerned, and both will greatly benefit from the new LeveRevolution bullets.

pretty much. I've not yet tried the pointy Hornady bullets yet; FN 150s are my 99% solution, so far :)

Grassman
December 21, 2009, 09:38 PM
For me it would be: .22,.223,.308 12 gauge. All I really need.

saturno_v
December 21, 2009, 09:38 PM
It certainly can make a difference...in some cases a pretty big one (like in the .35 Whelen),

The 35 Whelen is not a much more capable cartridge than the 30 WCF because of its caliber but mainly because it has a 30-06 case behind it!!!

If you take a 30-06 it can do pretty much anything a 35 Whelen can do...

Maverick223
December 21, 2009, 09:50 PM
The 35 Whelen is not a much more capable cartridge than the 30 WCF because of its caliber but mainly because it has a 30-06 case behind it!I don't believe that is all of it, but that is certainly a factor; despite the common belief there are just some tasks that the wee bullets aren't well suited for.

:)

Vern Humphrey
December 21, 2009, 09:55 PM
The 35 Whelen is not a much more capable cartridge than the 30 WCF because of its caliber but mainly because it has a 30-06 case behind it!!!
Actually, it's both. The .35 Whelen works on the magic of expansion ratios. The bullet is driven by expanding gas. As the gas expands its pressure drops. In the .35 barrel, it drops faster than in a .30 caliber barrel (for a given length of bullet travel.) This means you can add more powder to keep pressure up, which means you add more energy.

The .35 Whelen can drive a very heavy, .35 caliber bullet to about the same velocity as a .30-06 drives a lighter bullet. The Whelen will drive a 225 grain bullet to about the same velocity as the .30-06 will drive a 180 grain bullet.

My .35 Brown-Whelen (the most radical form of the Whelen) drives a 225 grain bullet to an honest 2800 fps. And that's a real thumper!

Uncle Mike
December 21, 2009, 10:11 PM
The 35 Whelen is an awesome round! I considered it when musing over the 338-06, not wanting the atom splitting power of the Whelen or a cartridge such as the 338WIN.MAG, 340 Weatherby I settled on the 338-06....

225gr. moving along at 2800FPS...hard to argue with that!

Maverick223
December 21, 2009, 10:20 PM
Mike, honestly I would have chosen the Whelen...it fills the role of "bigger than the '06" a good bit better IMO...and you can always download, plus bullets are a good bit cheaper.

:)

Uncle Mike
December 21, 2009, 11:01 PM
Patience....what am I going to do after the 338-06...!?! lol hehehehe

I really 'need' any of them like I need a...well, you know!

I really do like the 35 Whelen!

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 12:06 AM
Patience....what am I going to do after the 338-06...!?! lol heheheheExcuses...excuses, for getting a new rifle are important. :D

tango2echo
December 22, 2009, 12:22 AM
For me it would be:

.22lr
.308 (or a good .30-06)
.416RM
12ga 3 1/2"

If I needed something between the .22 and the .30 cal it would be a .243.
There's nothing a .25/.27/.28 can do that a .308/.30-06 can't do better. Nothing wrong with a good .270win, but the larger selection of bullets and weights gives the .30 cals a big advantage.
There's nothing a .300/.325/.338/.350/.375 can do that the .416 can't do better. Bullet selection is the only drawback, and that's not even a big one.

If it had to come down to ONE gun for NA it would be the .308 and the .416 for Africa.

t2e

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 12:32 AM
My .35 Brown-Whelen (the most radical form of the Whelen) drives a 225 grain bullet to an honest 2800 fps. And that's a real thumper!

That is a very good number...are you sure is within pressure limits?? What is the barrel length of your rifle??

Remington data for their 35 Whelen offering is 2675 fps for the 200 gr. and 2400 fps for the 250 gr.

Federal 225 gr. is advertised at 2600 fps

Hodgdon Reloading data mention a max velocity of 2588 fps for a 225 gr. bullet in 35 Whelen.

Only Nosler shows a 225 gr. load at 2800 fps for their 35 Whelen.

However a 225 gr. 35 cal. bullet has a SD of .251 where a 30 cal. 180 gr. pill has a SD of .271 (and a 30-06 can launch a 180 gr. bullet at well over 2800 fps)

That is a very important factor to consider for performance on game

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 12:41 AM
However my ideal battery (excellent, easy to find cartridges, well diversified for the various use) is the following:

22 LR (plinking, pest control up to a small coyote with the proper ammo)

223 Rem (serious varminting)

30-30 (more for the platform, a very manouvrable and light lever action rifle)

7,62x39 (very cheap ammo, effective on deer, very reliable and inexpensive semi auto rifles chambered for it)

30-06 (and more than one rifle in that chambering, at least a bolt action and a Remington pump action for wildlife defence, a much bette choice than any lever action 45-70 with the right ammo)

7,62x54R (not for the cartridge per se, which is a ballisti twin of the 30-06, but because of the unbelievable low price and availability of the platform and the ultra cheap cost of ammo)

338 Win Mag (good for comfortably hunting anything in the North American continent, it shoots flatter and hits much harder at long distances than a 30-06)

458 Win Mag or 458 Lott (just to have a very common and appreciated large African caliber in your collection)

Personally I'm close to get this ideal battery.

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 01:09 AM
a much [better] choice than any lever action 45-70 with the right ammoThat very much depends upon your use...the .45-70 fills some roles (such as large bear, and is available in a smaller, faster cycling action) much better IMO.

:)

bearmgc
December 22, 2009, 01:40 AM
.280, while I love the caliber, I love the BC of the 6.5x55, which could easily eliminate both the .280 and the .260. The BC is that good and proven long range tackdriving hunting caliber. Besides, its sexy....

Uncle Mike
December 22, 2009, 02:51 AM
hehehehe...everything is sexy from Sweden! Even the ammo!

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 02:59 AM
That very much depends upon your use...the .45-70 fills some roles (such as large bear, and is available in a smaller, faster cycling action) much better IMO.


Maverick

A 1983 Study made by the US Forest service about the effectiveness of various calibers against the big bears found the 30-06 only behind the biggest magnum boomers (458 WM, 460 Wby, 375 H&H and 338 WM) especially with heavy for caliber bullets.
It outclassed the 300 Magnums and significantly left behind the 45-70 (with standard velocity loads, not the "nuclear" ones used in single shot rifles)

Check the report:

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf

The Remington pump action is a faster cycling than a lever (at least in my hands...however it is a general common opinion) and you do not need to visually reacquire your target between shots.
On top of that you can use aftermarket extended magazines (10 rounds)

It is an immensely versatile rifle, put a scope with quick detachable rings and use light-medium weight spitzer bullets (up to 180 gr.) and you have a very effective long range hunting rifle...take the scope off, use the iron sights and heavy for caliber round nose bullets (220 gr. and up) and you have a serious short-medium range bone buster with tremendous penetration capabilities.

The 7600 is my hiking wildlife defence rifle.

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 03:11 AM
with standard velocity loads, not the "nuclear" ones used in single shot riflesNow there is your problem...the existence of the Trapdoor...in a Marlin 1895 (by no means the stoutest .45-70 action, but it can handle the .450Marlin so it isn't weak either) it can be loaded to about 40,000psi, which makes it less than tame.

:)

Uncle Mike
December 22, 2009, 03:39 AM
You guys and your....Pumpkin Chunkin' lol hehehehe

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 04:03 AM
You guys and your....Pumpkin Chunkin'Punkin' Chunkin' is the American way. :D

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 04:14 AM
Now there is your problem...the existence of the Trapdoor...in a Marlin 1895 (by no means the stoutest .45-70 action, but it can handle the .450Marlin so it isn't weak either) it can be loaded to about 40,000psi, which makes it less than tame.




Well in that report, the 30-06 finished just behind the 458 WM and 460 Wby...even the most nuclear 45-70 loads cannot approach the 45 cal. super magnums...(much bigger cases and higher pressure)

woods
December 22, 2009, 04:32 AM
IMO, an efficient caliber should be able to shoot a decent sectional density bullet between 2900 and 3100 fps, any slower and long range trajectory suffers and any faster and the bullets do squirrely things. Calibers that are not overbore or underbore are:

223
257 Roberts
270
300 Win Mag
338 RUM

jbech123
December 22, 2009, 01:02 PM
Still, I wouldn't disparage the .30-30 for what it does well. That's just not anything I can count on, in the Intermountain West. Sometimes, it would be just the ticket, but its limitations could just as soon cost you the opportunity to take a shot. We can see a lot farther than it will shoot -- and so can the deer, which can be over 400 lbs. I work with a woman who bagged a DOE that weighed over 400 lbs., two years ago, at 400 yards, because they just wouldn't let anyone get closer, and the season was about to end. That's not exactly a .30-30's forte.

I agree with you out here in the west the 30-30 limits a person unnecessarily as far as range.
I must say, I find a 400lb doe hard to believe. However even if true, that needn't enter the equation for selecting caliber. Very few bucks dress out above an honest 250...

Uncle Mike
December 22, 2009, 01:37 PM
I don't think I played this table yet, so here goes....

22LR....Entertainment-
22-250....Just because I love it-
30-06....Anything that walks or crawls, groceries-
7.62X39....Home defense-
375H&H.... See #2

I mean, if only limited to 5....

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 01:53 PM
even the most nuclear 45-70 loads cannot approach the 45 cal. super magnums...They can get close to the weak loads that they used in the test...in a Marlin 1885 you can drive a 405gr. to about 2000fps, or a 500gr. to over 1800fps, and get just as much penetration (with less energy). It is clear that they used loads suitable for the weakest of actions chambered in .45-70 and that is why they achieved the result (and they still had great penetration, just low energy).

I agree with you out here in the west the 30-30 limits a person unnecessarily as far as range.Absolutely, the .30-30 is much better suited to the thickets in the South-East.

:)

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 02:11 PM
in a Marlin 1885 you can drive a 405gr. to about 2000fps, or a 500gr. to over 1800fps

These are loads for the modern single shot rifles, not lever action rifles.
According to the Hodgdon reload data, a 400 gr, bullet for a modern lever action rifle can be pushed up to ~1800 fps.

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 02:22 PM
These are loads for the modern single shot rifles, not lever action rifles.According to most experts the Marlins are safe to about 40,000psi, and the loads I listed above are well below that...it is also chambered for the .450Marlin, which is a 45,000psi cartridge. ;)

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 02:47 PM
According to most experts the Marlins are safe to about 40,000psi, and the loads I listed above are well below that...it is also chambered for the .450Marlin, which is a 45,000psi cartridge.

The 450 Marlin has a published SAAMI pressure spec of 42.000 psi not 45K.

And according to the "experts" I did talk to (who really qualify as an expert anyway??) pushing a 400 gr. 45-70 bullet at 2000 fps out of a lever action is asking for trouble......feel free to try at your own risk.

However, both the super 45-70 and the 450 Marlin cannot hold a candle to a 458 Win Mag (much higher pressure, bigger case) which is capable to propel a 400 gr. pill at over 2400 fps.

And in that test about effectiveness, the 30-06 was immediately behind these monsters (including the 375 H&H and the 338 WM)

So let's say, being generous, that the 450 Marlin or the hyper 45-70 could match the 30-06 in effectiveness but not do better.

In a 30-06 nowdays you can use the Woodleigh Weldcore 240 gr, bullet which has a tremendous SD which no 45 cal bullet can even remotely match....people split in a half Water Buffalo skulls with these in Africa, where legal.

ArmedBear
December 22, 2009, 03:13 PM
jbech123: Mule deer tend to be much heavier than whitetails. I just confirmed with her. This was an unusually large doe, and weighed over 400 lbs.

But... an unusually large buck can be 500.

Mulies are much thicker than whitetails.

http://tailfeathersoutfitting.com/Images/Mule_Deer_Buck3.jpg

The first time I drove around a corner and saw a herd feeding on an abandoned melon field, I was truly shocked at how huge they looked. They're big, bulky animals -- yet they're still quick and agile.

Sometimes, there'll be a smaller deer, at 50 yards or less. But... it would be a real bummer to be out hunting, see the best-looking big buck of your life, around 400 lbs., eying you from 350 yards away, look down at your .30-30 and think, "Damn, why did I leave the .30-06 at home?!?":)

Vern Humphrey
December 22, 2009, 03:33 PM
That is a very good number...are you sure is within pressure limits??
What pressure limits? The .35 Brown-Whelen is a true wild cat. There are no SAAMI standards for it.

I developed loads by starting with .35 Whelen data and going up until I got pressure signs, then backing off.


What is the barrel length of your rifle??
22 inches. It's the original .30-06 barrel reamed out and rechambered. It was slightly shortened and re-crowned.

Maverick223
December 22, 2009, 03:34 PM
So let's say, being generous, that the 450 Marlin or the hyper 45-70 could match the 30-06 in effectiveness but not do better.Lets just agree to disagree...this is obviously going nowhere and neither cartridge is a poor choice for 90% of game.

:)

saturno_v
December 22, 2009, 03:55 PM
The .35 Brown-Whelen is a true wild cat. There are no SAAMI standards for it.

Opps, sorry...did not pay attention to that...

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