Marlin 336 peep sights


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TXHORNS
December 15, 2009, 02:15 PM
I have been spending way too much time researching peep/ghost ring sights for my newer model 336 in 30-30. I do not want to scope this rifle but I want an improvement over the buckhorns. Main use will be a brush gun for hogs, deer, etc. I expect no further shots than 150. I have a 150 yard range so I will be practicing at that distance.

I am trying to decide betwees the XS ghost ring, Skinner sight, and the Williams FP or WGRS (if it doesn't hang over the back of the receiver on a 336 like it does on the 1894 - still cant find an answer to that).

I am leaning toward the XS because its not as bulky as some of the others but I like how I can use multiple apertures for the other sights while the XS only comes with 2, and they are larger than most of the other offerings - will that affect accuracy? The Williams FP is pretty bulky and not my favorite in the looks dept but do seem very functional.

Anyway I am having trouble figuring out what will work best for me so any help is appreciated.

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MrBorland
December 15, 2009, 02:23 PM
I haven't shot this rifle in quite a while, but I've tried the Wms and Skinner.

I liked the simplicity of the Skinner, but elevation's not infinitely adjustable like it is on the Wms (and windage isn't adjustable at all, IIRC), as you're limited to adjustments in half-turn increments. Maybe not quite as big a deal on a hunting rifle. Personal choice, then. Overall, I prefer the Wms, myself.

ghitch75
December 15, 2009, 03:05 PM
TXHORNS if you want to get rid of your buckhorns i'm lookin' for a set.....

btw i need the dovetail too...

thanks

MrBorland
December 15, 2009, 03:13 PM
Williams FP or WGRS (if it doesn't hang over the back of the receiver on a 336 like it does on the 1894 - still cant find an answer to that)

Again, it's be a while since I've played with either, but I put the Wms FP on both. The 336 (at least my .35 rem) reciever's longer than that of my .357 1894, so the FP doesn't hang over the back and I don't need a hammer spur. Some locktite would be a good idea on the mounting screws, though.

bhk
December 15, 2009, 04:17 PM
XS sells an aperture stem that will accept any size screw-in peep made for a Williams sight. Brownell's sells them as an accessory. I bought one, but have so far been happy with the smaller of the two that came with the sight itself.

Malamute
December 15, 2009, 05:49 PM
The foolproofs are pretty good sights. The guide receiver sights are a bit fragile in my opinion. I don't have any experience with the others. They don't appeal to me, I guess I'm more traditional in my tastes. You didnt mention older Lyman sights, which are my preference. The 56 in particular, or a steel 66.

CZguy
December 15, 2009, 06:44 PM
You didnt mention older Lyman sights, which are my preference. The 56 in particular, or a steel 66.

Yep, thats my preference as well.

TXHORNS
December 15, 2009, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the info so far. I have read that the Lyman sights work only for older Marlins with holes on the side of the reciever, which I don't have, so I omitted them from my list. I hear the older Lymans are really good though, while the new models get average reviews.

I am thinking I cannot really go wrong with any but I like to get the most for my buck which is why I am asking. I will probably end up with a guide gun eventually and possibly a 44 mag so I may have the opportunity to try several.

My 1961 Model 94 will stay all original so I will always have the option for traditional buckhorns.

SSN Vet
December 15, 2009, 10:56 PM
Williams sells the FP for both 336 top mount and side mount set ups...

You can get the package with the correct height Fire Eye front sight on sale at Midway ever so often.

My accuracy with the 336 improved significantly with these fine appeture sights.

Malamute
December 15, 2009, 11:08 PM
If you're reasonably handy with tools, you can drill and tap the side of the receiver fairly easily. The proper drill bit and tap can be had at your local hardware store. Get a tap handle also, or borrow one, it helps keep it straight. I've done several, it isnt that difficult. If you don't have a drill press to keep it perfectly square with the reciever, use a hand drill and go slowly, watching to be sure you keep it square. I've used a hand drill (orginal 1886 winchester, and an 1886 Browning) and a drill press and mill on a couple. The sights used to have instructions for doing the drill and tap job, I don't know if the newer ones do. Your library may have a good book or two about gunsmithing that will give you some pointers on doing it.

Use oil on the tap, and back it out after each quarter to half turn in. You'll want to take the innards out of the gun while you drill and tap it. At ;east the bolt, ejector, and perhaps the locking bolt, or be sure it doesnt get in the way inside.

It would be a fun project for you. Think of it like a Boy Scout merit badge project. You can do it.

Furncliff
December 15, 2009, 11:29 PM
http://skinnersights.com/images/1895picture1.JPG?314

Skinner, clean, simple fully adjustable. You can order custom apertures .

tubeshooter
December 15, 2009, 11:41 PM
Skinner sights are great. I have one on a 39A, no complaints.


I have a WGRS on my 336. Works fine - doesn't hang off the end of the receiver like the 1894. You will probably need a taller front sight if yours is stock. I think my 'smith used .500.

CZguy
December 15, 2009, 11:57 PM
Skinner sights are great..................if you only shoot at the distance they are adjusted for. The Lyman sights have an adjustable scale that you set for zero at 100 yards and then learn how many notches to move them up for 200 or 300. That way after a long shot you can set the sights right back to 100 yards without having to sight it in again. Lyman's may be bulkier, but depending on where you hunt, can be a really slick setup.

SwampWolf
December 16, 2009, 02:18 AM
My experience has been with the Williams FoolProof (and one 5D). I have them mounted on several rifles and have had nothing but good luck with them.

TXHORNS
December 16, 2009, 01:00 PM
Great, pretty much all my questions have been answered so thanks for the help and new ideas.

As Malamute mentioned I (or a smith) could drill and tap the side of my receiver for a Lyman. Is there any advantage to a side mounted (Lyman or Williams) sight over a top mounted Williams sight? I have also read some sub-average reviews about the newer production Lyman sights while the new production Williams sights get great reviews. Any truth to that?

While my intention was for all hunting shots to be within 50-150 yards, which I can do without ever changing my sights once sighted in, the idea of being able to make quick adjustments past that range is interesting to me. I typically would use a scoped rifle if I planned on taking longer shots but I have never enjoyed shooting or hunting with scopes as much as I enjoy a well handling and light rifle with good iron sights. Anyone taken some long shots with their 336?

Malamute
December 16, 2009, 01:39 PM
I'm nor familiar with the exact model of top mount williams, I'm thinking it has a base that mounts on top, then the base and slide go over the side. It looks more bulky and complicated than the side mount Williams.

The newer Lymans are aluminum. The slide is a bit thinner than a comparable Williams, and can bend easier than the Williams if whacked against something. I like the looks of the Lyman, and the simpler to adjust feature, it has a coin knob for both adjustments, and a quick release buttom to change the elevation or complately remove the slide if desired. I'm not a fan of the "target" knobs that allow you to change the settings by hand, I've had them change when sliding the gun in and out of a scabbard or against things.

The Williams Foolproof is a good sight, and if you like the looks of it, I'd go with it. The 5-D doesnt have the click adjustable feature, and isnt as precise or simple to adjust zero. It adjusts simply with screws that clamp the parts in place, not micro click adjustments. I had a couple 5-D's, and upgraded to Lymans or Foolproofs.

If you study the trajectory charts, you can sight in an inch or two or three @ 100 yards, and its fairly easy to make hits farther out. I feel no need for the leverevolution loads to shoot longer distances. Most 30-30 bullets have a better BC than the ones that Hornady used to compare their evo loads to, and they used a closer range zero to compare their longer range zero on the evo loads, it really isnt an even comaprison that I've seen. I think their 170 gr bullets are under .200 BC (.180-something?), the Speer 170's are .304 BC. I sight my 30-30's about 3" high @ 100 yards, and they are right on around 175-200 yards, a couple inches low @ 225, about 6" low @ 250, and about about 18" low @ 300 yards. Thus sighted with good bullets, muzzle to 225-250 yards isnt much of an issue. The Speer 150's shoot a little bit flatter, perhaps a couple inches less drop @ 300 with a similar 100 yard zero.

The country around me is fairly open, you may not have any need or desire to shoot longer distances, but this has worked for me. If you want a little more usable range, but not as far as I sight in for, then I'd go about 1 1/2" or 2" high @ 100, and still be within 4-6" @ 200-225 yards without any sight adjustments. That's "hold right on a deer" capable at that range.

SwampWolf
December 16, 2009, 01:49 PM
One advantage the Williams unit has is the feature that permits "locking" your adjustments in place with set-screws (ergo, the moniker "FoolProof").

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 02:03 PM
The Lyman sights have an adjustable scale that you set for zero at 100 yards and then learn how many notches to move them up for 200 or 300

Old FP .30-30 can be sighted in for +/- 3" MPBR > 200 yards. The LE stuff will probably approach 250.

Hence, there's no good reason to screw with elevation while taking a shot in the field. The rounds is about pooped out when drop starts to matter anyway, if you sight it in strategically, and that's assuming you can even aim accurately past 250 yards with irons obscuring a deer.

Pat4x4
December 16, 2009, 02:08 PM
someone put links to where you find all these sights for sale.. Just to make it easier ..

This is a goos thread

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 02:20 PM
Skinner Sights: http://skinnersights.com/ :)

CZguy
December 16, 2009, 02:48 PM
Hence, there's no good reason to screw with elevation while taking a shot in the field. The rounds is about pooped out when drop starts to matter anyway, if you sight it in strategically, and that's assuming you can even aim accurately past 250 yards with irons obscuring a deer.

I'm going to speculate that we all have different shooting abilities. If someone is good enough to take a long range shot, then the may want to have sights that allow them to do it. If you feel that your abilities are limited to short range (100 yards) then the skinner sight would be excellent.

I'll freely admit that at my current age about 100 yards is all that I feel that I can humanely hunt at.......................but there was a day when I could. :D

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 02:52 PM
If someone is good enough to take a long range shot, then the may want to have sights that allow them to do it.

Past 250, even if you can see well enough (and how do you see through your front sight?), .30-30 has pretty much petered out. That IS a long-range shot.:)

My eyes have been screwed up since I was a kid. Peep sights help a lot, vs. semi-buckhorns, since astigmatism is my problem.

CZguy
December 16, 2009, 03:05 PM
Past 250, even if you can see well enough (and how do you see through your front sight?), .30-30 has pretty much petered out. That IS a long-range shot.

I sight in all of my rifles so that the point of impact is just above the top of the front sight post. That way I can see the target, front sight, and rear sight. I just focus on the front sight post. For me this has always allowed a much more accurate way to shoot.

You know I just have always assumed that everyone does this. Now I wonder how many people do.

Ed Harris
December 16, 2009, 03:09 PM
With open rear, step-elevator sights on the old 1893 Marlins, 1894 Winchesters, etc. one step on the elevator adjusts the point of impact about 3 inches at 100 yards or 1-1/2 inches at 50.

With typical .30-30 and .32 Winchester Special open sighted leverguns firing factory ammunition, setting the rear open sight on the bottom step should zero the gun about an inch above the bead at 50 yards. Elevating the rear sight to the second step generally brings point of impact up to strike about 3-4 inches high at 100 yards. This is a good field zero for most hunting, which enables you to take a 6:00 hold on the brisket of a deer. So sighted you will make a good hit as long as you have hair under the bead and no daylight above the bead sight.

A 1/16 inch bead subtends about 5 minutes of angle when out on the end of a 20-inch carbine. If the deer is far enough away that the bead covers the animal from shoulder to brisket, then hold right there and shoot. If you zeroed your rifle to strike 3-4 inches high at 100 yards, covering the forequarters with the bead should give a solid hit on a deer if you do your part out to about 150 yards, which is the maximum effective range of a .30-30.

If the animal is far enough out that you cannot see enough of the animal around the bead to clearly identify the head and hindquarters, then it is probably over 200 yards and too far to shoot at and be sure of a humane kill.

That is what my grandfather in West Virgina told me on my first deer hunt many years ago. It is still good advice. A peep sight is easier to see and has a better sight radius which reduces sighting error, but it doesn't increase your effective range. Neither does the fancy new ammo. A .30-30 is still a 150-yard deer rifle, because typical leverguns won't shoot much better than 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards or 6 inches at 150 anyway. The 1/16 bead is a useful range estimator. Sight your rifle in to strike 3 inches high at 100, tweak the windage as needed to get it absolutely perfect and then leave it alone. People who used irons sights as they were intended to be brought alot of venison home.

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 03:11 PM
I sight in all of my rifles so that the point of impact is just above the top of the front sight post. That way I can see the target, front sight, and rear sight. I just focus on the front sight post. For me this has always allowed a much more accurate way to shoot.


The Marlin doesn't have a square post. It has a bead. IMO the fast and natural way to aim is to center the bead and the target in the peep aperture.

Your method is a lot more intuitive for AR-style and Partridge sights, and it's how I sight those in, also.


If the animal is far enough out that you cannot see enough of the animal around the bead to clearly identify the head and hindquarters, then it is probably over 200 yards and too far to shoot at and be sure of a humane kill.

That's my thinking, too.

CZguy
December 16, 2009, 04:18 PM
The Marlin doesn't have a square post. It has a bead. IMO the fast and natural way to aim is to center the bead and the target in the peep aperture.


You may well be right............but I've shot so long that way, that is is natural and intuitive for me.

I would agree that a .30-30 is pretty well spent at 150 yards. But as a younger man I didn't know that, and killed a few at 200 yards. It's kind of a moot point now since I wouldn't feel comfortable taking that far of a shot without a scope.

ArmedBear
December 16, 2009, 04:25 PM
Of course, another solution is a custom front sight.

There are some posts that would work very well, I think, to provide very natural centering of the front sight in the aperture, while allowing a POA like you describe (which is the most accurate way to shoot).

Ever seen KNS Precision's AR sight posts? Lots of possibilities, including crosshairs. I wonder if there'd be a way to fit one of those to a Marlin.

http://www.knsprecisioninc.com/c/GunSights.html

CZguy
December 16, 2009, 04:58 PM
Anything is possible.............if you are willing to make the effort.

In my case I use a Williams fire sight in front of a Lyman receiver sight. This set up works well for me.................and the truth be told, I may be entering a phase of my life where I don't change too many things. :D

ronto
December 16, 2009, 05:52 PM
I use the Williams FP peep with a Williams FireSight front. This combo works for me.
If you have a new production "W" model and go with the XS system, be aware that the "W" front ramp is secured by one screw (there is no screw under the dovetail) and the XS front requires two screws.

Rangr44
December 16, 2009, 11:06 PM
[ am trying to decide betwees the XS ghost ring, Skinner sight, and the Williams FP or WGRS (if it doesn't hang over the back of the receiver on a 336 like it does on the 1894 - still cant find an answer to that).]

The WGRS does not overhang the rear/hammer of a Model 336.


[I am leaning toward the XS because its not as bulky as some of the others but I like how I can use multiple apertures for the other sights while the XS only comes with 2, and they are larger than most of the other offerings - will that affect accuracy?


1) Upon request, the XS Ghost Ring peep is available with an aperture stem that's threaded to take removeable apertures, just like any other peep sight.

2) Aperture size effects both accuracy and speed/handiness, but in opposite directions:

The smaller the aperture, the tighter the accuracy but the slower to acquire/use on sudden/game shots.
The larger the aperture, the looser the accuracy (only slightly) but the speed of acquisition increases dramatically.

Many seasoned users, in fact, zero/practice with a small aperture, then entirely remove it and shoot/hunt using the resultant ghost ring.



[The Williams FP is pretty bulky and not my favorite in the looks dept but do seem very functional

You might also want to consider the Williams 5D - which is similar to the FP, but at half the $$$$, due to no micrometer adjustable w/e.

The 5D, XS and Skinner are all "set 'n forget" sights, best used by a one-load shooter - since they're not readily re-adjustable for repeated changes in the field or in a target game like silly-wets.
The FP is better for frequent changes in zero.

ALL the top-mount peeps will require a commensurately higher than issue front sight blade, since they each raise the issue line-of-sight by at least 1/10".
Many take the opportunity to change front sight type to a different material they like better, beit gold bead/ivory bead/ fiber optic bead.

.

TXHORNS
December 17, 2009, 12:34 AM
I think I am getting somewhere now. I definately think 150 yards is the max range that I am comfortable hunting with and I plan on using one load and sticking to it, thus negating the upside to the Lyman or Williams FP sight.

So I guess now I am down to the WGRS, XS, and Skinner sights. Still have some deciding to do. Thanks for all the input so far, I know a lot more about these sights now.

ECVMatt
December 17, 2009, 01:32 AM
I have the XS, Lymann 66, and a Skinner. I like them all. I bought the Lymann's because I though I would do a lot of adjusting, but it did not happen. I am with Armed Bear on this one. I found a sweet spot for each rifle that let me shoot out to about 150, I set the sight and did not move it. I generally prefer the XS, but the Skinners are very nice. I put one on my Marlin 39 and it looks great and is dead on. I would go with the simpler designs and not worry about all the others.

XS and Skinner are steel or brass, the other are aluminum. I would stick with the stouter ones as I am pretty hard on my guns.

Good Luck in your choice,

Matt

TXHORNS
December 18, 2009, 01:27 PM
I think I will try the XS sight as I think it will fit my needs best. Thanks to this thread I have learned that I can special order smaller apertures if needed which was my main negative for this sight. It might turn out I like the ghost ring better anyway, thats what I have on my mini and m1a and l have zero complaints. Thanks for all the help - much appreciated.

dak0ta
December 18, 2009, 02:32 PM
So if you have a Marlin 336 W model with only 1 screw at the front side ramp, how do you install the XS front sight that has 2 screws?

TXHORNS
December 18, 2009, 10:59 PM
Dakota - I may have read that XS makes a front sight with 1 screw for the 336W, could be wrong about that though, I would call them to find out. Or a gunsmith or someone handy with a drill and tap set could probably install it.

If neither of those work for you, maybe one of the other brands in this thread would work best for the 336W. Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think the firesight and the Skinner front sight would not have any problems as they are dovetailed to fit your front sight mount.

dodge
December 19, 2009, 07:05 PM
I have the WGRS on my guide gun (45/70) and it doesn't hang over the rear. With my handloads I haven't had to change out the front sight for a taller one. A couple of my friends bought the same sight and one of them put it on the front scope holes as he said that it works better for him. I haven' t seen the setup yet but hope to in the very near future.

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