7.62 x39 ar


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semper_fidelis
December 15, 2009, 08:10 PM
Hey folks, I know I just asked about an AK but I've done some more looking and talking to the old guy the raised me and this seems like a better root for me. What do y'all know about AR's in 7.62 X 39? Who makes good ones at lower prices. I plan on buying the cheaper version (fixed carry handle, fixed stock,) with the exception of a chrome barrel if I can find one. Any help or advice is appreciated. Thanks

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John Parker
December 15, 2009, 08:43 PM
Check out the cost, availability, and durability of 7.62x39 AR magazines. It may be a significant detractor.

jojo200517
December 15, 2009, 08:56 PM
So lets see if I understand, you want a rifle that shoots 7.62x39 instead of 5.56x45, you want it cheap, you want a fixed stock, you want a chromed barrel? The only thing the AK doesn't have is that silly carry handle, special mags and a much larger price tag. I'd assume you want to actually be able to shoot it cheaply, thus shooting cheapo ammo. The ultra cheap stuff is known to cause some issues in the 5.56x45 version of the AR, I can't speak for the 7.62x39 AR's but I'd still say its more likely to work in the AK platform since they were designed to work together.

I'd just go for the AK, they come in black too now if thats a concern.

Z-Michigan
December 15, 2009, 08:58 PM
As noted, the biggest problem is magazines for a x39 AR15. There are few options, none of the options are considered top quality (C-Products is probably the best, but that's not saying a lot), and it's inherently hard to do because the x39 case is so heavily tapered but the AR magwell forces the magazine to be straight for the top 2" or so. Yes, it can be done, just don't expect terrific reliability.

For brands, I would look at an Armalite first. Top quality, price should be reasonable right now. They are chrome lined. Not many x39 barrels (for an AR-15) are chrome lined. Del-Ton and Model 1 Sales offer uppers, but I believe with non-chrome-lined barrels. Ditto for DPMS.

wally
December 15, 2009, 09:00 PM
Getting good mags for the 7.62x39 AR, unless you are happy with 10 round capacity, is the only issue IMHO.

For economy AR shooting its hard to beat a 5.45x39 AR upper and the surplus corrosive ammo for ~$150/1000.

My J&T 7.62x39 AR upper says the Wolf JHP ammo is not a bad as the AK makes it out to be.

--wally.

Z-Michigan
December 15, 2009, 09:36 PM
For economy AR shooting its hard to beat a 5.45x39 AR upper and the surplus corrosive ammo for ~$150/1000.

This is a good point. You can also get new non-corrosive 5.45 ammo (Wolf or Silver Bear) for about the same price as new 7.62x39mm ammo. The mags are only slightly different from .223 mags and work just fine. Your best bet on this route is the S&W M&P15 in 5.45.

wally
December 15, 2009, 10:31 PM
The mags are only slightly different from .223 mags and work just fine.

They are different enough to not work for me unless loading only 15-20 rounds is good enough.

--wally.

semper_fidelis
December 15, 2009, 10:59 PM
well your wrong on just about all counts jojo200517. the reason I'm going for the fixed stock is because its cheaper for now. the tighter tolerances should equal better accuracy. they are actually cheaper in many cases. model 1 makes a non-chrome for approximately $530 while many ak can run easily over that especially where I live. Oh and the crack about the color isnt appreciated.

Z-Michigan
December 15, 2009, 11:34 PM
They are different enough to not work for me unless loading only 15-20 rounds is good enough.

Is that with mags made specifically for 5.45x39mm (I believe only CProducts is currently selling such mags, though rumors are that Lancer Systems will be someday soon) or are you talking about standard .223 mags? The cases are a bit different.

rangerruck
December 16, 2009, 12:28 AM
What you are talking about, is really called a saiga. 16 inch bbl, chrome lined bore, more accurate than proly all other ak's out there, 350 for an unconverted one, 450 to 550 for a converted one. ak mags are cheap and hardy.
' chef recommends...'

about 99% of all ak's out there, are made with used parts; Saigas are 100% all new, factory made,
from the origional russian factory, that first made ak's.

Uncle Mike
December 16, 2009, 03:32 AM
A good 7.62X39 AR....Olympic Arms...not too bad on price either.

Quiet
December 16, 2009, 06:59 PM
MGI MARCK-15 (AR that uses AK mags)
https://www.mainemilitary.com/productcart/pc/catalog/mgi762gun.jpg

wally
December 16, 2009, 09:53 PM
They are different enough to not work for me unless loading only 15-20 rounds is good enough.

Is that with mags made specifically for 5.45x39mm (I believe only CProducts is currently selling such mags, though rumors are that Lancer Systems will be someday soon) or are you talking about standard .223 mags? The cases are a bit different.

I was talking about loading 5.45x39 into .223 mags which you seem to imply would work. My experience is the 5.45 rounds don't stack right in a .223 mag so I never tried shooting them.

The purpose built (I believe they are C-Products) 5.45x39 mags I have work fine. I've the S&W 5.45x39 upper and have had it on a couple of different lowers. I think I paid $60 for four of them at the gun show where I got the upper (a steal at $450 back in Oct '08!).

--wally.

Z-Michigan
December 16, 2009, 10:57 PM
Wally, I didn't mean to imply that regular .223 mags work for 5.45. I said:

The mags are only slightly different from .223 mags and work just fine.

So, 5.45 mags are slightly different from .223 mags - one less rib, different follower, etc., but since the 5.45 cartridge isn't as tapered as the 7.62x39 case it fits much better within the confines of an AR magazine that has to fit in an AR-15 magwell.

Anyway, I don't own a 5.45 AR, you apparently do, and your comments above are consistent with what I've been told by trainers I know who use 5.45.

Dr.Mall Ninja
December 16, 2009, 11:04 PM
I don't really understand why you would want to do that. If your trying to save money by going x39 why don't you just stay with the ak and save more?

jojo200517
December 16, 2009, 11:11 PM
model 1 makes a non-chrome for approximately $530 while many ak can run easily over that especially where I live. Oh and the crack about the color isnt appreciated.

Good gosh there still that high on them up there? Prices are back down around 400-500 around my area for an AK. I do like the AR that takes AK mags, that would certainly solve the issue of mags being unreliable. Yeah i'd say the accuracy would probably be better with the AR. I would go flat top if that was possible however. I know plenty of people that have carry handle uppers that wish they had flat top. You can always get a carry handle to go on it if you need one.

The "crack about the color" was in reference to AK's coming with black colored polymer furniture akin to what you would find on an AR, as opposed to the traditional wood. It was in no way a racist remark. I just know some people (like me) don't like wood on our guns. You can get both of the rifles in in tan or green furniture also. I do apologize if this in anyway offended anyone because that was not the intention here.

Grease Monkey
December 16, 2009, 11:23 PM
It's a good round. If you dig it in an AR, then go for it. Del-ton has the stuff to convert an AR to 7.62x39, and they're a good company.

http://www.del-ton.com/AR_15_Conversion_Kits_7_62X39_s/104.htm

The upper is going to cost you somewhere in the range of what an AK would.

tkcomer
December 17, 2009, 08:27 AM
The two biggest problems with the AR in 7.62X39 are light hammer strikes on mil surp or Russian made ammo and of course the magazines. If you head on over to http://www.ar15.com/ and go to the AR Variants under the AR-15 tab, you can get a lot of info there. The firing pin can be modified to fire the hard primers on the Russian made ammo. As for me, I used the MGI enhanced bolt in mine. And I'm using C-Products 10 round clips. I've never fired any of the “animal” brand of ammo through it, but it fires the lacquer coated German and copper washed Chinese ammo without a hitch. The upper is a 16”, flat top, free floated and has a target barrel from Model 1 Sales. The lower has the RRA trigger in it. With the MGI bolt, I have absolutely no problems firing the above ammo with the light trigger. And my clips never jam. It's not as accurate as the 223 upper I have, but it is fun to shoot.

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 17, 2009, 10:47 AM
6.8 SPC renders the question irrelevant. :D

svaz
December 17, 2009, 11:17 AM
The "crack about the color" was in reference to AK's coming with black colored polymer furniture akin to what you would find on an AR, as opposed to the traditional wood. It was in no way a racist remark.
Waaaahhahahaha. Not to get terribly personal, but only a firearms neophyte would have mistaken the "black rifle" comment as racist (for the record, I like my firearms furniture to be of the triglyceride-impregnated cellulose variety).

Anyway, the AK-mag lower for the AR got me all excited, until I saw the price tag on that puppy! Good lord man, this isn't 10 months ago!

If AK's are stupid expensive where sempre-fidelis lives, he might consider perusing Gunbroker (http://www.gunbroker.com/), Guns America (http://gunsamerica.com/), Auction Arms (http://www.auctionarms.com/), or even CDNN (http://www.cdnninvestments.com/dowournewcat.html) & Centerfire (http://www.centerfiresystems.com/ak_firearms.aspx) (looks like they have Romanians, Yugos, Poles, & Bularians for under $500 (which is $150 more than they are worth, IMHO).

Z-Michigan
December 17, 2009, 11:37 AM
6.8 SPC renders the question irrelevant.

I will be converting en masse to 6.8 SPC whenever I can buy it readily for 60 cents/round or less. It is a better overall balance than any of the other AR type calibers. Until then....

Tirod
December 17, 2009, 12:01 PM
Check Cabelas for Silver State 6.8. The stuff is out there.

A shooter can get an AR in a lot of calibers these days, but I have to ask, why 7.62 x 39? It's ballistically the same as .30-30 - well known as a short range, adequate deer killer, but not exemplary.

Good grief, the bullet drop is measured in feet beyond 300 yards. Cheap milsurp or import ammo isn't known for MOA accuracy, either. More like 4 MOA. A .30-30 with Leverevolution will do better. AK ammo better be cheap, as much practice as necessary to get the holdover right will be needed.

There are a lot better, more modern calibers out there than a 1940's era third world curio. I'd think someone wanting to shoot the AR platform would be looking for ballistics to match, not downgrading.

As for ammo costs, I see the biggest impediment to cheaper ammo as a complete lack of willingness to reload with something other than a credit card. Doing your own pays it's way.I will also point out the illogic of many who insist on quality in their firearm but who buy the cheapest military reject ammo they can shoot. I don't see that as either a sign of expertise or a way to gain it.

If someone has a high round count training regimen and hasn't moved to a .22 platform, reconsider it. Shoot the good stuff when it counts.

YaNi
December 17, 2009, 01:36 PM
I have been beating my head over the ar vs ak decision. The AR-47 seems like the best compromise (other than the price). The 7.62x39 is cheap, and is a bigger round than the .223. The AR platform is known for its accuracy, but I can't hunt anything other than varmint with the .223. The two combined seems to be a killer combo.

Cheap, hard hitting round + AR accuracy

The 6.8SPC and 6.5Grendel would be tempting other than price and availability (I dont reload, yet..)

wally
December 17, 2009, 09:51 PM
I don't really understand why you would want to do that. If your trying to save money by going x39 why don't you just stay with the ak and save more?

More accurate, and easier to scope an AR.

As I said my AR 7.62x39 upper proves the Russian ammo is not as bad as the AK makes it out to be.

I like AR uppers that shoot ammo that is cheaper than 5.56x45. Only justification I need.

I like the AK for its simplicity and ruggedness. I like the AR for its accuracy and ergonomics.

I usually take and shoot both an AR and an AK in the caliber I've got the most ammo for. Don't see a difference worth considering for 5.56 vs. 5.45 other than the low price of corrosive 5.45 surplus, but the 7.62x39 really rings the steel gong compared to the 5.xx rounds.

If I hunted, I'd be happy with a good 7.62x39 JSP round, as someone else pointed out is pretty much same as a 30-30. OTOH I do enjoy shooting lever guns, but they can't compete in the cheap ammo department. I barely have time to keep up with the hand loading for my pistols so reloading for rifles is off the table for now.


I will be converting en masse to 6.8 SPC whenever I can buy it readily for 60 cents/round or less. Over $0.20 per round is what I think is expensive :)

I am perfectly willing to aim at bigger targets to compensate for the less accurate ammo.
8" steel plates work great!

--wally.

RedLion
December 17, 2009, 11:25 PM
Cheap, hard hitting round + AR accuracy

Don't buy cheap ammo expecting accuracy, regardless of what you're shooting it out of.

rangerruck
December 17, 2009, 11:58 PM
wow, I forgot all about the mgi line of stuff; plus you can get an ar lower mag well, if you like.

MK11
December 18, 2009, 09:05 AM
ARs in anything other than .223/5.56 aren't known for running too well. I think a 7.62x39 version would be an exercise in frustration.

1832
December 18, 2009, 09:55 AM
I've had my Model 1 7.62x39 Upper for nearly two years. I couldn't be happier with the setup. The 7.62x39 performs very well out of an AR platform and even the steel cased ammo give a level of accuracy that is better than my old 30-30 lever. The only mod you'll need is to the firing pin, if your going to shoot the harder primers in the steel cased stuff. I went with the MGI Enhanced Bolt and have never had a problem since then.

I originally bought the upper for slapping Yotes at a friend's sheep ranch. It's fun to watch the heavier slug make those suckers roll when hit with it.

camper
December 18, 2009, 07:27 PM
I have a Del Ton M4A3 build in 7.62X39 which I really enjoy. I also got an MGI bolt for it and put an extra strength Wolff hammer spring on it as a guarantee against light primer strikes. I use C-product 10 and 30 round mags and have had no problems with them. In all, I really like the system.

Deer Hunter
December 18, 2009, 07:30 PM
ARs in anything other than .223/5.56 aren't known for running too well. I think a 7.62x39 version would be an exercise in frustration.

Suuuuure.....

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png

Lloyd Smale
December 19, 2009, 08:11 AM
I just got a bushmaster in 762x39. I wont get into the reliablitiy fight as i havent owned it long enough to comment but i will coment on the why. I bought it for two reasons. First it is a much better caliber for deer hunting using an ar and even in self defense its a harder hitting round. Second i bought it becuase in my ars i about exclusively use handloads as i cant afford to shoot them the way i do unless i load my own. Loading components have been hard to get lately and I found 5 cases of wolf ammo for a 150 bucks a case here local. I figure if i cant find components at least i can still shoot this one without breaking the bank.

fireman 9731
December 19, 2009, 09:23 AM
the tighter tolerances should equal better accuracy

The tighter tolereance can also make it a jam-o-matic.

Go for an AK!

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