How many have pushed a load so hard


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Nate1778
December 17, 2009, 12:32 PM
they blew the gun. I know people double charge and that is understandable. I am just wandering if anybody has pushed a load so hard they blew the weapon. You hear all the time about modern load manuals being conservative now a days and do not "ever" exceed max load, but I wander how much harder you can push modern published data. Not that I plan on running to the max on every load but my 9mm in Red Dot has a we bit more case space and the load, although fun to shoot, it lighter than the typical white box stuff.

I know guns have a rating at least twice normal operating pressures so there has to be a bit of room for error.

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DWFan
December 17, 2009, 12:39 PM
Try this...
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=641328&utm_source=froogle&utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=653
and use your handloads for practice/general plinking.

Floppy_D
December 17, 2009, 12:42 PM
Part of the economy of reloading comes from not blowing things up. Most folks gradually work up loads, watching for pressure signs along the way, in pursuit of an accurate or economical load. I can't imagine a person who would willingly ignore pressure signs, and continue to load hotter. The exception would be someone looking to destroy a gun.

I know guns have a rating at least twice normal operating pressures so there has to be a bit of room for error.

That's a blanket statement that I wouldn't put any faith in. What are you looking to accomplish? Turning a 9mm into a 357 magnum?

EddieNFL
December 17, 2009, 12:42 PM
Once witnessed a S&W 27 blow three cylinders apart, but not from pushing the load. Seems the owner misidentified Bullseye for whatever he intended to use for a magnum load.

Sometimes you'll see excessive pressure signs before reaching the published max; other times you can push the envelope and still look okay. Problem is, looks can be deceiving.

Walkalong
December 17, 2009, 12:51 PM
Not I. Mamma didn't raise no fool. ;)

Nate1778
December 17, 2009, 12:55 PM
That's a blanket statement that I wouldn't put any faith in. What are you looking to accomplish? Turning a 9mm into a 357 magnum?




No, just a wee bit hotter. I watch pressure signs and been reloading long enough to work a load. I guess as I was thinking about it last evening, it dawned on me I have never scene someone say they blew a gun up from working a load to high. Most either used the wrong powder, double charged, or squibed and blew. I was just wandering if anybody had ever added that "Last" proverbial grain and went Kaboom.

EddieNFL
December 17, 2009, 01:09 PM
Why not try a slower powder?

Mags
December 17, 2009, 01:19 PM
Maybe you should find one of these products (http://www.midwayusa.com/browse/BrowseProducts.aspx?pageNum=1&tabId=1&categoryId=17764&categoryString=9315***19845***) that suits your needs.

rcmodel
December 17, 2009, 01:26 PM
I was just wandering if anybody had ever added that "Last" proverbial grain and went Kaboom. It would be unreasonable for a reasonable reloader to ever blow up a gun.

Not to say it has never happened, but you get plenty of warning signs before the gun disappears in a puff of smoke & shrapnel.

Now, with that said, it is far easier to blow a case, which in a pistol, usually results in a magazine blown out, extractor blown off, grips splintered, and some harm to the hand holding the gun.

In a high-power rifle, the same case failure results in a catastrophic failure of the arm itself.

Pressure signs occur gradually, and progressively in a high-power rifle.
Stiff bolt lift, leaky primer, loose primer pocket, brass extruding into the bolt face, and finally, complete failure of the case.

Not so much in a pistol or revolver, because things like blown or pierced primers, enlarged primer pockets, and extruded brass happen about 20,000 - 30,000 PSI higher then any 9mm case or gun can handle.

Reloading manuals have not been dumbed down or lawyered up over the years.
What has happened is much more precise and better pressure testing equipment, namely the electronic pressure transducer.

Today, pressure spikes and brief excursions above allowable pressure can be seen on a computer screen in real time.

Back in the day, pressure testing involved mashing a copper slug, and it could not register a pressure spike that was too short in duration to mash the copper slug.

Best follow established maximum loads in the better load manuals.
They tell you right there in plain English how much pressure the load develops, and they won't lead you astray far enough to blow up a gun or blow a case..

rc

jcwit
December 17, 2009, 01:26 PM
Not I. One of the big advantages of being a reloader is loading down for accuracy, doesn't much good to have the supper zipper fast bullet that doesn't hit anything.

Furthermore I'm an individual who doesn't like pain and that encludes the wrists and shoulder. But thats just me!

As stated already, mayhaps try some manuals and literature on reloading and accuracy.

Nate1778
December 17, 2009, 01:28 PM
Yes thanks guys I have the manuals. This question really isn't posed on the load mentioned above but more the principle. There is load data, there is min and max load data. There are pressure signs, I think were all clear on that fact. The question is has anyone blown there gun pushing the max load data at a reasonable level. Obviously pushing it to 30%-40% is going to get close to double load charges. The question is has anybody ever loaded a max load, said huh that wasn't bad and pushed it 5-10% and the gun detonated. I just cannot recall anyone saying they have had this happen.

nitetrane98
December 17, 2009, 01:48 PM
Back in the day when I was dumber than I am now I tried to find the ultimate bad boy .357 magnum load. With several different powders I would approach the published maximum always looking for pressure signs. Only once did I go over max with Blue Dot, a 1/10th of a gr at a time. It was a glorious roar and flame signature. I think it was 3/10 gr over but I started to see the beginning of primer flattening so I backed off. Anyway, as it turned out it was nowhere near as accurate as lesser loads and it hurt like hell in a 6" Trooper MKIII
I'm presuming your Red Dot load is at max. What is your purpose for wanting to fill the case? I can understand the "just to see what if" reasoning too. Are you convinced that Red Dot is the ultimate powder for 9mm performance?
I'm with RC on this, if you go up easy, chances are you'll see pressure signs well before damaging a gun. Presuming it's a strong gun, you'd almost have to be wanting to tear up a gun to proceed beyond pressure signs..

zxcvbob
December 17, 2009, 01:58 PM
I've blown brass cases in a *very* strong revolver, but never hurt a gun. (it's not easy getting half a .30 Carbine case out of a Blackhawk cylinder that is sticky even with light loads) More often I've had primer pockets loosen up after one firing -- another good sign to back off.

Red Dot is the ultimate accuracy-and-economy powder (especially if you use the Promo version.) It's a good one for 9mm target loads. Do not hotrod Red Dot or Green Dot. You can hot rod Bullseye; it seems to like it, but a slower powder like Unique, Herco, or HS-6 might be a better choice.

Beelzy
December 17, 2009, 02:24 PM
Only those folks whose last words on this Earth are, "Hey everybody look what I can do"
would care to do this act you mention.

Bwhahahahahahah!

Walkalong
December 17, 2009, 03:27 PM
Future Darwin Award winner. :uhoh:

Nate1778
December 17, 2009, 04:54 PM
Yeah, not saying I am going to try it, just inquiring if it has happened. Thank you RC and others. I did figure there would be case failure prior to detonation.

Clarence
December 17, 2009, 04:59 PM
It makes no sense to push any cartridge beyond the maximum recommended loads. If you need more performance pick a different cartridge.

RandyP
December 17, 2009, 05:15 PM
Follow Mrs. Gump's sage counsel and you won't go far wrong.

Don't follow it and become a statistic of Darwinism.

Life is a series of choices.

GP100man
December 17, 2009, 06:01 PM
I don`t shoot nuttin anybody hands me unless it has correct factory ammo!!!

When I was young & dumb a person handed me a Model 29 8 3/8 brrl. (his revolver& ammo)

I shot 4 rnds & it bound up , the frame was warped enuff to bind the cyl against the barrel .

Needless to say I grew older & smarter qwik!!!!!

Never again will I shoot nuttin but MY handloads or reputable factory ammo!!

This happened almost 30yrs ago & when I see a kaboom or summtin mentioned `bout it the memory comes back as if it just happened!!!!

zxcvbob
December 17, 2009, 06:55 PM
Only those folks whose last words on this Earth are, "Hey everybody look what I can do" would care to do this act you mention.
"Here, hold my beer an' watch this!" :D

Sport45
December 17, 2009, 09:49 PM
Check out some of Clark's old posts. I believe he's our resident expert at pushing firearms to the limit (and beyond). I'm guessing he's destroyed more guns in his testing than any twenty of the rest of us combined.

Jim Watson
December 17, 2009, 09:57 PM
You have case space because Red Dot is a fast burning powder under 9mm pressures and you run into the maximum load before you fill it up.

There is an old rule of thumb for rifles that X% increase in powder charge = X% increase in velocity = 2X% increase in chamber pressure. Pistol rounds, with their small volume cases and fast burning powder, are even more out of proportion.
Y'all be careful, now, you hear?

eldon519
December 18, 2009, 12:56 AM
Elmer Keith blew up a revolver and part of one of his fingers when doing his development that would ultimately lead to the .44 magnum. He was grinding black powder to fit more in the case and using .458 lead rifle bullets in .45 Colt balloon-head cases.

The .44 magnum and .454 Casull were both basically developed by intelligently and carefully using double or triple loads in their original parent cases with firearms strong enough to handle them. Original .454 Casull loads were basically .45 Colt triple charges. Try that in the wrong gun, and it'll certainly blow up.

ants
December 18, 2009, 03:40 AM
I know guns have a rating at least twice normal operating pressures No, they don't.

Industry engineering standards are utilized in firearm design.
There is no design standard that says, "Design to twice normal operating pressures."

Whoever told you that was lying.

atblis
December 18, 2009, 03:47 AM
Definitely check out Clark's posts.

Also double the powder does not equal double the pressure. Doesn't quite work like that.

If you're after some hot 9mm loads, look for info on 9mm major. You can also make very good velocities, while staying inside sane pressures. Power pistol, Bluedot, Trueblue, 3n38, etc.

qajaq59
December 18, 2009, 07:10 AM
I know guns have a rating at least twice normal operating pressures so there has to be a bit of room for error. I'll never understand why people want to try and overload a gun. But they have to be people that have never experienced severe pain or a long stay in a hospital. Otherwise they'd NEVER do it.

Kernel
December 18, 2009, 10:26 AM
I’ve never done it myself, but I’ve heard and read of guys buying rifles just to blow them up. It’s called Testing To Destruction. Which sounds a lot more scientific than “buying rifles just to blow them up.”

Hatcher did it after WWII with a collection of the various combatant’s rifles. I seem to recall they were somewhat surprised to find the Japanese Type 99 was far stronger than anyone thought.

For sure, to do it right, you’d want to invest in an old tire (to tie the rifle to) and a looong string (to pull the trigger).

hossfly
December 18, 2009, 11:03 AM
The extra couple of hundred fps is not going to help much. It's and issue of too much risk for too little reward for me.

Ol` Joe
December 18, 2009, 11:45 AM
No, they don't.

Industry engineering standards are utilized in firearm design.
There is no design standard that says, "Design to twice normal operating pressures."

Whoever told you that was lying.

True, very true!
Modern rifles are "proof tested" with ammo using a load that is 1.4Xs the max allowed pressure for the cartridge. For a 222 Rem this works out to a proof load of 71,900 psi on a cartridge that working pressure is 50K psi. Rifles are built to any capability as long as it exceeds that needed for the proof test.
Once you exceed the "normal" operating pressure of a cartridge the rate of pressure increase is not linear. One gr of powder in the normal pressure range may raise pressure 1000psi, once the pressures are higher then allowed that same one grain might raise pressure by 5000 psi or maybe only 500. There is no way to tell short of taking your chanches.
There is a reason the books stop at a given pressure level, and it is wise to heed them if we don`t have the equipment to see just what is occuring. Even the "pros" find themselfs wrecking a gun at times if they do it enough. Elmer Kieth is one good example, and I believe Bob Hagle experianced some problems too.

Nate1778
December 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
Thanks for the explanation of the "Proof Testing". To clarify I am not going to exceed the max load. I was simply trying to find out how many have Kabooms by venturing into that realm.

USSR
December 18, 2009, 01:23 PM
I'd venture to say, more people have done damage to their gun by "underloading", sticking a bullet in the bore, and following up with a plugged bore shot.

Don

eldon519
December 18, 2009, 01:35 PM
One of the problems I find with "Testing to Destruction" is that unless you are only firing each weapon once, it doesn't paint a very good picture. Once you get into elevated material stress levels, each subsequent test is weakening it through crack nucleation.

I'd encourage anyone who wants to do something like this to Wikipedia "fatigue (material)". The subject matter basically deals with cylcling something, usually below yield limit for plastic deformation, until it breaks. Some ferrous metals and titanium have an endurance limit. Under this threshold, you can in theory cycle something forever and it will not break. All other metals including these metals above that limit slowly degrade as tiny cracks in the material form until they ultimately fail. Corrosion also plays a big factor.

Where firearms fall in the limit, I am not sure (above or below the endurance limit), but I have a feeling it is above it. The important thing to note is that the relationship is typically represented on a logarithmic scale. If you look up the Wikipedia article, you'll see a graph for brittle aluminum with the stress levels on the y-axis and the number of cycles on the x-axis. Look at 150 and 300 MPa for example. Say we have a fictious rifle made of this material, and the stress in a rifle were 150 MPa with normal loads, it will survive roughly 10,000 rounds before failure (1 E+4). Now say you double the pressure which should roughly double the stress in the rifle. If we fire 300MPa rounds, the rifle will last about 10 shots (1E+1). Notice doubling the pressure did not half the life of the rifle. Your rifle's life will now be 0.1% of what it would have been. This is just an example, and the actual stress levels would make a difference, if it were more like 100MPa and 200Mpa, you'd have about 1,000,000 and 1,000 respectively. That's still 0.1% of its normal life, but 1,000 isn't so bad. My gut feeling is that an actual firearm's life to critical failure would probably be on the order of E+5 (100,000s) or high E+4s, but that's just a guess.

RandyP
December 18, 2009, 01:36 PM
Squibs and kabooms go together like peanut butter and jelly.

Beyond that I'm not sure how to use knowing how many stupid people have done something fitting to their intellect benefits my knowledge base? I take comfort in my belief that following simple printed load data (cross checked and verified) and staying 10% below max charges does keep a rather large percentage of reloaders safe in their hobby.

Nate1778
December 18, 2009, 01:58 PM
The knowledge is not so much what stupid people have done in the past. The knowledge of the questions comes in the form of a safety factor. Most items sold to the public are built with a safety factor in mind. Ladders are built to hold twice the weight their rated for, and so on and so forth. My inquiry is how close to that realm are loads and guns built to. Even in a not so stupid moment in any one of our lives our scale goes off kilter and we don't catch it and load a round with .5 more than normal powder than the MAX load of that round, in my for "example" 9mm. Is that gun going to blow up in my hand or is it going to take the shot and let me know I have a hot round and not to shoot anymore. People approach the MAX load like a school boy on the prom queen. I understand that and I do the same when working a load. I was simply approaching how dangerous that realm is, not that my target rounds are going to get there.

A for instance, OSHA requires my trade to be tied off to a anchor that can withstand 5000lbs of force in a 6' fall for a 200 lb man. Its double the force generated in a fall of that height, sometimes triple or quadruple depending on the lanyard in use. If I am a 200lb guy with a 30lb tool belt, will the fall protection fail, no, cause there is a fudge factor figured in there. I am simply seeing if there is a fudge factor in the re-load data.

dwave
December 18, 2009, 02:00 PM
My reloading is simple:

1. Never exceed max loads.
2. Load for accuracy. Forget the chronograph.
3. Never exceed max loads.

raz-0
December 18, 2009, 02:36 PM
I know guns have a rating at least twice normal operating pressures so there has to be a bit of room for error.

I'm pretty sure that isn't true. I'm also pretty sure that you have no way to tell what the pressure curve of any given powder in any given case is.

ranger335v
December 18, 2009, 02:45 PM
"Hatcher did it after WWII with a collection of the various combatant’s rifles. I seem to recall they were somewhat surprised to find the Japanese Type 99 was far stronger than anyone thought."

The tests were done but it was by P.O. Ackley in his school for new gunsmiths in Colorado. The 99 was the strongest of them all. Ugliest too. Well, there was the Carcano...

dwave
December 18, 2009, 02:48 PM
I'm also pretty sure that you have no way to tell what the pressure curve of any given powder in any given case is.

I am sure you are right. Check this out (from Hodgdons website for .357 mag):
158 GR. HDY XTP IMR SR 4756 .357" 1.580" 5.0 896 17,500 PSI 6.5 1146 29,900 PSI

So @ 5 grs pressure is 17,500, but just add 1.5 and the pressure skyrockets to 29,900.

158 GR. HDY XTP Hodgdon H110 .357" 1.580" 15.0 1418 28,600 CUP 16.7 1591 40,700 CUP

Pressure is 28,600 @ 15.0 grs. Pressure rises to 40,700 @ 2.7 more. There is no way you could estimate the pressure rise from just 2 numbers. There are just too many factors.

RandyP
December 18, 2009, 03:05 PM
nate, while your question may express a valid concern, it is also IMHO unanswerable.

Do you know the burst pressure of your handguns' chambers? If so, don't exceed it, presuming you have the means to pressure test all your reloads?

I don't have the info or test gear for mine so I simply stay below max load data which provides me the safety 'fudge factor'.

Might just blindly increasing your loads beyond max present a kaboom? Maybe yes, maybe no. Unless you're feeling really lucky this week, it might pay to simply NEVER exceed the posted max load data? Just a thunk.

You pays yer money and you takes yer chances.

atblis
December 18, 2009, 03:46 PM
The case/primer will fail before the gun does (in most cases).

Rugg_Ed
December 18, 2009, 04:24 PM
Now that was interesting reading.
Did see what was left of a guys Model 70, 30-06 after mistakenly scooping the wrong powder into the case. Couple minutes of checking prior to loading would have saved a lot of misery an $$$$$.

raz-0
December 18, 2009, 04:30 PM
The case/primer will fail before the gun does (in most cases).

Might, might fail at the same time too. Depends on how much powder you put in how small a space. But that is why life is an adventure I guess.

qajaq59
December 18, 2009, 04:58 PM
Does jumping in front of busses come before going past max or after? I always forget....:rolleyes:

Nate1778
December 18, 2009, 05:12 PM
I would guess to say, that more bus impacts have killed people than Kabooms. No stats to back that up, just taking a wild guess.....

ny32182
December 18, 2009, 06:12 PM
I think part of the problem is that the "max" load can vary *considerably* from source to source.

What I end up doing is compiling the data from several sources, and then working from there. Sometimes I settle on a load that is above max according to one source, and below max according to another. Sometimes the "max" load from one manual turns out to be obviously under-pressure in my gun.

I just consider this phenomenon the real reason that loading up from the low end of the published data is the best idea. If all the published data was unquestionably the "holy grail", there would be no need to work up, since we'd automatically know the listed max was totally safe. But by the same token that we don't start at .1 under the listed max, .1 over the listed max may very well be safe, as long as it is work up to, and pressure signs observed... that is my opinion based on my experience.

Akaboson
December 18, 2009, 07:02 PM
My experience with these calibers and working up loads has been one component change can make a significant difference. Just going to a magnum primer makes a significant difference. Reduce the variables to as few as possible.
Once you are familiar with the components, and use the same components consistently, varying load then gives you results you can see with the naked eye. Or feel!
I've had some extreme experiences with loads that were in the middle range of the powder recommendations. Thankfuilly, flattened primers, keyholing, shredded jackets, and stuck cases, were my only result.

warnerwh
December 18, 2009, 07:35 PM
If you're going to push a gun past max recommended loads then buy another gun that is more powerful. I think it is stupid to see how far you can push a gun.

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