What qualifies a rifle to be a "competition rifle"?


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SA Town
December 18, 2009, 03:37 AM
Over the past few weeks I have been browsing over some AR-15s (know little to nothing about them) and have come across quite a few brands... one brand that caught my eye was the JP Enterprise series since they feature the 6.5 Grendel on some of their configurations. The CTR-02, to be specific, looks like an animal.

However, after researching the JP Ent. rifles on various forums, people seem to pass them off as "only being competition rifles or game guns" (in a degrading manner) as if they were any less of a rifle than a target rifle. I had always assumed that competitions required much more from a gun than a typical day at the range.

So, back to the title, what qualifies a rifle to be a competition rifle, and do you think it makes it any less of a gun than a target / bench resting rifle (which is what I will be using it for)?

Completely unrelated side note: Can you mix 6.8 lowers with 5.56 and 6.5 G uppers? Thanks.

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wayne in boca
December 18, 2009, 03:54 AM
Competition or game guns are designed for handling qualities and reliability,with accuracy as an afterthought.Target rifles,on the other hand,are focussed totally on accuracy.They tend to have much lighter triggers,tighter chambers,heavier (and longer) barrels,and weigh a lot more than their counterparts.

SA Town
December 18, 2009, 03:58 AM
Thank you sir, just the answer I was searching for.

T.A.Sharps
December 18, 2009, 04:35 AM
A competition rifle is build for better accuracy and stability in a shot, tighter tolerances. A lot are made to fit your muscles so when you flex or breath it will move very little, as well as to get maximum performance from the cartridge.

The only way these would be inferior to any other rifle would be weight, you wouldn't want to carry around a rifle in the field that weighed 15lbs. Or maybe it would be awkward to carry.

http://www.jprifles.com/photos_new/CTR02C2_556.jpg

If this is the rifle you are looking at, the only real difference from a standard AR-15 is they seem to make a special receiver and upper assy that is stylized more than a standard one. The rest looks like things you can put on any AR.

It looks like they put more work into their design, but as to weather it would all make it more accurate I can only guess. Looks like it would be pretty pricey.

A "competition", or target rifle would look like these...
http://www.rgrifles.com/page1/files/page1-1006-thumb.jpg
http://usera.imagecave.com/65256264/AR-15Matchrifle-copy.jpg

blackops
December 18, 2009, 05:03 AM
Competition or game guns are designed for handling qualities and reliability,with accuracy as an afterthought.Target rifles,on the other hand,are focussed totally on accuracy.They tend to have much lighter triggers,tighter chambers,heavier (and longer) barrels,and weigh a lot more than their counterparts.

I thought "competition" rifles ARE basically target rifles. You don't see many guys hunting with competition rifles.

madcratebuilder
December 18, 2009, 06:32 AM
I think the rifle well depend on what "competition" you are involved in. Three gun would be different than camp perry.

Brimic
December 18, 2009, 08:16 AM
However, after researching the JP Ent. rifles on various forums, people seem to pass them off as "only being competition rifles or game guns" (in a degrading manner) as if they were any less of a rifle than a target rifle. I had always assumed that competitions required much more from a gun than a typical day at the range

Depends on what kind of 'competition' the rifle will be used for. They look well made and would be plenty accurate for just about any use. The problem is that a lot of sanctioned 'competitions' have rules as to what is allowed or not allowed for equipment. The rifle mentioned in the OP would not be allowed in CMP highpoer or NRA service rifle, but would be allowed in NRA Match rifle, where these rifles might not be ideal for.

Sam1911
December 18, 2009, 08:22 AM
"Competition" is a little like "tactical." If you're selling something, it's a bonus word you can tack on to ask for 20% more money.

If you just got outshot by someone with one, they are words of derision applied to insinuate that the gun that beat you is, too ugly, too pretty, too black, not black enough, too accurate, not accurate enough, too heavy, too light, too ergonomic, not ergonomic enough, too fast, too slow, too long, too short, too powerful, not powerful enough, too cheap, too expensive, or any other set of claimed negative adjectives you feel you need to apply to the other man's gun to justify your poor performance.

If you actually need a gun for competition, or for "serious" purposes, then the words "competition" or "tactical" don't mean anything at all. Your mind will filter them out as you focus on the specific features and tolarances you need your gun to have to accomplish a specific function.

-Sam

Walkalong
December 18, 2009, 09:28 AM
Mighty nice looking benchrest rifle there T.A.Sharps.

Uncle Mike
December 18, 2009, 10:13 AM
Competition.....Mostly accurate, totally reliable, somewhat picky, somewhat finicky, somewhat tight tolerances, medium weight, medium length barrels, cost just less than a 700 series Beamer!

Target.... All accurate, somewhat reliable, picky, finicky, extremely tight tolerances, heavy weight, heavy weight barrels, extremely long barrels, cost considerable MORE than a 700 series Beamer!

SpeedAKL
December 18, 2009, 10:19 AM
Many of the 3-Gun guys use JP Rifles. They are outstanding high-end ARs for that purpose....and the price reflects it.

taliv
December 18, 2009, 12:41 PM
There are some profoundly misinformed responses in this thread but since I'm on my iPhone I'll wait til tomorrow to respond to most ofthem.

cougar1717
December 18, 2009, 12:56 PM
I got to shoot a JP once. It was lightweight, handled well, and shot accurately. JP has been innovative with the AR platform and has created a lot of modifications like a different extractor, lightweight bolt & buffer, aftermarket trigger, and a lightweight hammer. As other posters have said, these rifles are made to compete in a three gun competition, where handling, weight, and rate of fire make a difference. These would not be appropriate for any sort of "stock" AR competition since they have proprietary parts. Even though they may be very accurate, they're probably not the best choice for a benchrest competition, but they work great for the 3 gun style of competition.

raz-0
December 18, 2009, 01:30 PM
JPs are well made rifles.

Are they accurate? Compared to other ARs? Compared to a bang for the buck rifle like a savage fp-10? Decent, but a LOT more expensive. Compared to a good bolt action rifle, not quite so much. Compared to a benchrest rifle with a 1" barrel bolted to a railroad tie? Definitely not.

It is a relative thing. How much accuracy do you need to keep you interested?

Do they have a good trigger? Compared to a semi-auto, kind of, compared to a decent bolt action rifle? Heck no. The JP trigger is a very crisp single stage trigger that comes in around 3-3.5 lbs, and has no takeup. I prefer two stage triggers because I like a little take up on a semi-auto, and I don't like the way the JP trigger feels if you dial in some pre travel. They are a solid, reliable design, but I personally don't like them. Also, since it was designed, a number of lighter, reliable single stage triggers have hit the market, as well as a number of good 2-stage triggers.

Once again, it is a relative thing. You like what you like, and the JP might be it.

The there is reliability, which IMO is a mixed bag that depends on how far down the rabbit hole you go. First, it has no forward assist. This doesn't mean it doesn't need one. If you go with the whole light carrier, light buffer tube, adjustable gas block set of options, you can find yourself in need of that forward assist simply because of a change in ammo or ambient temperatures. It also has a .223 wylde chamber, which doesn't play nicely with some ammo. So don't expect it to run on anything but the ammo you KNOW it runs on, because it might not.

Then there is weight. With their .920" barrel and built like a tank billet upper and lower, they aren't light.

However, with the heavy weight, tricked out gas system, light buffer,light bolt carrier, and a good comp, you have an accurate rifle that has low felt recoil, and is fast to get back on target. Which is what you are really paying for with a JP.

JP is also a good bunch of guys that are good to do business with.

That being said, I have JP parts for some things, but I don't have a JP rifle because the whole package is not really what I'm looking for.

SA Town
December 18, 2009, 01:38 PM
Thanks for all the answers so far guys.

What I was really hoping to do was start with a 6.8 LWRC PSD and eventually swap out the upper for, say, a 6.5 Grendel upper (I've read that it is possible, any truth in this?) for more accuracy at the range - hence me asking about the JP rifles.

I did recently, however, find out that they only sell complete lowers, not uppers... so my search continues!

Art Eatman
December 18, 2009, 01:42 PM
Three-gun and other run-and-shoot competitions require firearms which primarily are reliable in hurried circumstances, as well as reliable through long courses of fire and quite possibly dirty conditions.

Very-tight-group accuracy is generally not part of the deal.

As noted above, competition such as at Camp Perry is a completely different game, as is formal benchrest competition.

It takes a good bit of time, effort and $$$ to make a race-gun also be capable of very tight groups.

blackops
December 18, 2009, 11:07 PM
The point of trying to get across is competion and target rifles are both too heavy to carry hunting and both are more accurate than your standard hunting rifle. Not to mention both have a substancial amount of custom work done usually and cost quite a bit more.

T.A.Sharps
December 19, 2009, 03:10 PM
I wish I could say the rifles in those pictures I posted were mine, I got them off a Google search for examples.

I bought Remington 700 5R Milspec for my "target rifle" because I knew it had better accuracy than normal out of the box, and would allow me to try out some competitions if I got the opportunity.

Also, a "competition rifle" can really be anything, such as CMP matches using service grade rifles. I just assumed the OP meant something match grade, Benchrest being the highest level I could think of as an example.

BTW to the OP,
What if you start with the 6.8, have fun with it, then when you are ready, buy a nice Krieger barrel for the 6.5 and get it fitted to your receiver. I don't know if the rest will fit it exactly, but the great thing about the AR is it is totally modular.

bomb dropper
December 19, 2009, 03:45 PM
What qualifies a rifle to be a "competition rifle"?

put me behind it...lol

Walkalong
December 19, 2009, 05:26 PM
Lots of different types of "Competition" rifles.

This on is a switch barrel 6PPC Benchrest rifle. Full blown accuracy rifle.

Rosenthal action, Hall stock, Jewel trigger, This particular barrel was smithed by Col. Billy Stevens.

taliv
December 19, 2009, 05:46 PM
nice, walkalong! interesting paint job

Walkalong
December 19, 2009, 05:57 PM
Sporty. :D

I thought it was blue when I bought it. In certain light it looks blue, in other light it looks green. It's more green than blue.

Uncle Mike
December 19, 2009, 05:58 PM
Nice little squirrel gun you got there walkalong! lol hehehehe

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