Gas piston .308 AR?


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MyRoad
December 21, 2009, 03:00 AM
I've seen a few gun makers jump on the gas piston AR-15 bandwagon, but has anyone come out with an AR-10/.308 gas piston rifle? One would think it would be the next logical step.

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taliv
December 21, 2009, 10:29 AM
it's called a scar-h

i think they're due out mid 2010

MyRoad
December 21, 2009, 10:39 AM
Thanks for the reply. An hour or so after posting that I was on GunBroker.com and saw a POF makes them ($2,500 and up).

I'd love to have a 308 as rugged and reliable as a FAL, and as accurate and easy to scope (i.e. designed to be scoped/integrated rail) as an AR-10. I'd love it, but not $2,500 worth of love. Not this year, anyway.

http://www.pof-usa.com/images/p30820black.jpg

Quiet
December 21, 2009, 11:00 AM
H&K makes the HK-417 (MR-308 for EU civilian market and MR-762 for US civilian market).
http://prometheus.med.utah.edu/~bwjones/C1516441744/E20080206170825/Media/HK%20417.jpg

LWRC makes the REPR.
http://www.onpointsupply.com/lwrc_rifles/lwrc_sabr_2.jpg

MyRoad
December 21, 2009, 11:17 AM
Wow! I love the LWRC. I was never a fan of the charging handles on ARs. Now THAT's what I'm talking about. :cool:


Ouch! on the price though. Put's that one firmly in fantasy land for me. Hopefully some day Ruger or S&W will mass produce them and bring the price down well under $2k (street price).

Robert
December 21, 2009, 11:33 AM
I was never a fan of the charging handles on ARs. Now THAT's what I'm talking about.
That is the charging handle off of an Israeli FAL. That style charging handle allows for forward assist should the round not chamber. I know you are looking for an AR style rifle, but have you given thought to a FAL?

MyRoad
December 21, 2009, 12:15 PM
I know you are looking for an AR style rifle, but have you given thought to a FAL?

It's not that I'm looking for an AR style specifically (even though I implied that in the title) -- I'm looking for a precision .308 semi-auto that has a scope rail as part of its original design, not an afterthought. Also, one that is rugged and can run reliably clean or dirty.

I have a FAL -- a DSA SA58 Para. I think of that one as a high quality AK in .308 - in terms of reliability and durability, compromising accuracy and ergonomics (i.e. cheek weld with the folder) for longer shots.

My issue with the FAL is mainly that the best optic rail seems to be the DSA rail, and it takes away from the basic ease of cleaning (accessibility) that was designed into FALs. While its a well-engineered solution, to me it still feels like what it is -- a bolt on afterthought.

I am curious if DSA's "Hunter" series is significantly more accurate than their other models, but haven't been able to find a comparison write up. Since I don't have unlimited funds there will be compromises, I understand that, and if their "match" barrels make them comparable to an AR-10, then I could live with the non-integrated rail system.

DPMS seems to be having such success with their LR308s, that I'm hoping that they comes up with a solid GP version, and the street price would be in the $1,600 - $1,800 range.

All wishing aside, given my budget and what's currently on the market the FAL is probably somewhere between my best and only option.

taliv
December 21, 2009, 12:44 PM
you'd be hard-pressed to defend your implication that GP is more reliable for your needs than DI.

if budget is at all part of your consideration, you probably can't afford enough 308 match or hunting ammo to even get close to the level of usage where GP vs DI might theoretically make a difference.

jon_in_wv
December 21, 2009, 12:51 PM
I'm a big fan of the gas piston over direct impingement when it comes to battle rifles and assault weapons but in the case of a precision rifle or snipers rifle the DI system is just fine in my book. A precision rifle is going to get more care, isn't ognig to be handled as roughly, isn't going to shoot massive amounts without cleaning, and the lower reciprocating mass will aid accuraccy. The AR-10 style rifles may suit your needs just as well as the GPs.

Robert
December 21, 2009, 12:59 PM
FAL =/= Precision Rifle. I love my FAL but it will never compete with an AR10 in accuracy. A high end precision AR10 style rifle, like the JP LRP07, is not an inexpensive item. Nor is it a GP system. And your $1800 top end is just a little over half of what one costs.
significantly more accurate than their other models,
I doubt it. I have seen a few folks spend a lot of money to make a FAL into a precision rifle only to end up buying an AR10.
I know I am opening up a can of worms, but why GP over DI?

MyRoad
December 21, 2009, 01:02 PM
you'd be hard-pressed to defend your implication that GP is more reliable for your needs than DI.

if budget is at all part of your consideration, you probably can't afford enough 308 match or hunting ammo to even get close to the level of usage where GP vs DI might theoretically make a difference.

Point well taken. It moves into the realm of highly unlikely, but I'm always looking for the "one gun" solution. Having spent too much time reading "SHTF" threads, I have been thinking in terms of very low maintenance rifles, that can function under the most extreme situations with the least care. Realistically speaking, I'm sure you're right.

...Actually, I have a Remington R-25 (camo'd DPMS LR308). Something about it just doesn't feel confidence inspiring. Maybe its just the giant AR "twang" I hear with each shot, or the initial issues I had with it with light primer strikes, but it does not impart a sense of durability. I was kind of disappointed with it in general. Honestly I haven't shot it in a while, I suppose I should give it another try.

Robert
December 21, 2009, 01:11 PM
I have been thinking in terms of very low maintenance rifles, that can function under the most extreme situations with the least care.
Throw a fixed stock lower on your FAL and call it a day. Sure the thing will never group 1 MOA but as long as it is minute of bad guy you are fine. I know for a fact that you can engage and hit targets, steel in this case, out to 400 yards. I did it with irons at a match in Sept.

MyRoad
December 21, 2009, 01:47 PM
Throw a fixed stock lower on your FAL and call it a day.

Sound advice, for sure.

I made a decent cheek pad for my Para out of a foam motorcycle grip and hockey tape... sounds cobbled together but its durable and works pretty well. I have a 1-4x scope I'm going to put on there (an AccuPoint), that is somewhere in the mail between MidwayUSA and me. That's the set up I intended for that rifle, not really expecting it to do miracles.

I also have a decent bolt action .308 (700P LTR), so my "toolkit" has my bases covered in that caliber. I'm just still fantasizing about the "one gun" idea.

Robert
December 21, 2009, 02:33 PM
"one gun" idea.
Unfortunately there is really no such thing. The best you can hope for is a rifle that covers your bases the best it can. And from the sound of things you have them fairly well covered.

jon_in_wv
December 21, 2009, 05:33 PM
Sure there is. Its an AK. If the target is too far away then I guess I have some low crawling to do!

Robert
December 21, 2009, 06:06 PM
Sure there is. Its an AK. If the target is too far away then I guess I have some low crawling to do!
As much as we all love our own personal favorite weapon, the simple truth is that no rifle can do all things. Let's not get into this is better than that as those threads do not end well and are of no use. I only mentioned the FAL because he already has one and with a few mods would seemingly fit the bill for his needs.

lobo9er
December 21, 2009, 06:17 PM
you'd be hard-pressed to defend your implication that GP is more reliable for your needs than DI.

if budget is at all part of your consideration, you probably can't afford enough 308 match or hunting ammo to even get close to the level of usage where GP vs DI might theoretically make a difference.

I agree. But the a "GP" systems are pretty cool. Be cool if they accepted FAL mags.

lobo9er
December 21, 2009, 06:20 PM
H&K makes the HK-417 (MR-308 for EU civilian market and MR-762 for US civilian market).


nice looking rifles.

jon_in_wv
December 21, 2009, 06:37 PM
Gus, I was being purely sarcastic. I should have posted that I was being so but I thought it was apparent. The AK isn't even my favorite weapon, I personally believe a .308 bolt gun would suit fine as an all around rifle but the OP has a different set of criteria than me. For his criteria I would still think an AR10 would be a lot more satisfying than the extra cost involved in getting a GP 308.

Robert
December 21, 2009, 06:43 PM
Gus, I was being purely sarcastic. I meant to actually post that I was being so but I thought it was apparant.
Jon,
Sorry I totally missed that. What with my cold and being exhausted I did just did not catch that. Sorry if my reply sounded heavy handed in anyway.

jon_in_wv
December 22, 2009, 10:28 AM
No problem, my humor gets a bit dry at times.

Mainsail
December 22, 2009, 11:32 AM
Keltec makes a gas piston .308, called the RFB:

http://img.geocaching.com/user/6459d134-2e21-4a16-9ff3-a4a073979ffc.jpg

MyRoad
December 22, 2009, 12:36 PM
Keltec makes a gas piston .308, called the RFB:

A plastic .556 I can almost swallow, but a plastic gun in .308... just a bit scary to me. I imagine it must have some sort of metal internal frame? In terms of the goals of this thread, how does it group?

Casefull
December 24, 2009, 12:43 AM
I shoot a RRA 308 with 16 in barrel. It easily groups 3/4 in. I also have a hk 91 (not as accurate) I cannot imagine someone not being satisfied with the RRA 308. Are all the ar style 308 rifles this accurate? I recently read a test of a jp in 308 and they were bragging about 1 in groups. I think the prices for the piston rifles is ridiculous. You have to clean it anyway. I do not get the fascination with trying to see how long you can ignore a dirty weapon and have it still function. I sharpen my knife before it gets dull not after it will no longer cut something.

P.B.Walsh
December 24, 2009, 01:32 AM
RRA .308's take FAL mags. BTW.

I have been thinking about this exact same thing for when I hit the lottery!!

Wes Janson
December 24, 2009, 12:41 PM
A plastic .556 I can almost swallow, but a plastic gun in .308... just a bit scary to me. I imagine it must have some sort of metal internal frame? In terms of the goals of this thread, how does it group?

If you look at the picture carefully, you'll note that the majority of the rifle is steel. The only polymer components are the pistol grip, handguard, and magazine well housing.

Accuracy depends on ammo. Handloads give approximately 1 MOA, surplus and commercial ammo tends to do 2-4 MOA.

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