Ruger LCP Vs. Taurus TCP


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kd7nqb
December 21, 2009, 11:36 PM
I have wanted an LCP ever since I saw the video of them at SHOT 2008, then the TCP came out and while I have yet to handle the TCP it seems like it would warrant a quick look before buying the LCP.

Overall the shop I called today had them both priced at $299 given this fact I just assume take the Ruger however if I found a TCP at $50 less I might be convinced otherwise.

Anybody have any other insight on one or both of these guns? Other than the early recall I cant think of any downsides to the LCP that would push me to the Taurus.

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Big Bill
December 21, 2009, 11:38 PM
Anybody have any other insight on one or both of these guns?One is made and serviced here in the USA and one isn't. That's enough for me. So, I bought an LCP.

rhoggman
December 21, 2009, 11:58 PM
I carry my LCP more than any other firearm. It serves its purpose well, but like any $300 handgun it is not exactly the finest piece of craftsmanship on the planet. Having said that my next pocket auto will be a Sig P238. Why.... I like the LCP; however, little things like the noticeable wear on the frame, the holster rubs on the polymer, and the bluing that is gone off the slide. The LCP is not made to sustain the ages IMO.

I believe the Sig will be more durable. I bought my girlfriend a Berreta 3032 Tomcat for the same reason... durability... (this was before I found out about them having a slew of problems).

The whole point to this is that if it something you are going to carry a lot an LCP WILL serve its intended purpose, but the abuse will be evident.

Gunsafe
December 22, 2009, 12:20 AM
I bought an LCP back in April and have been using it as my EDC since then. I enjoy the fact I can wear business dress and still hide it without anyone noticing. However, I'm with rhoggman in that it will show wear and tear. It has yet to have any kind of mishap. Not one FTE, FTF...nothing. So far it's been 100% reliable and that's my main concern. Toss in a spare mag and you're good to go.

I will mention that the sights are very hard to see in low light conditions. When I shoot at the local indoor range it's almost impossible to see the sights on anything but a light colored target. You can forget lining up on Shoot-N-Cs. You'll know where you were aiming after it hits! It takes some practice and 'getting used to' before you can hit things reliably without using the dinky sights (that is, when you can't see them).

I've seen the TCP advertised in magazines but have yet to actually get my hands on one.

scoutsabout
December 22, 2009, 01:52 AM
I got two LCP's a few months ago, for the wife and I. They're okay, for what they can offer in such a tiny package. They're not fun to shoot and hard to maintain accuracy with.

Then I picked up a Sig P238... and we both loved it. Great shooter with all the features that the LCP lacks.

I bought another 238 the next week, and we've sent the LCP's packing.

.

kd7nqb
December 22, 2009, 02:52 AM
scouts- I too looked at the sig but it seems like its too big for pocket carry. Am I right to believe its about the same size at the Springfield EMP?

LancerMW
December 22, 2009, 02:54 AM
238 is much smaller than the emp

Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 22, 2009, 04:25 PM
The Taurus has an actual slide stop that holds open the slide after the last shot, IINM.

The Taurus, like the Ruger, is made in the USA.

http://www.taurustcp.com/

03Shadowbob
December 22, 2009, 04:39 PM
I have the P238 and it is only slightly larger then a LCP or Keltec. By slightly I mean maybe two or three ounces loaded and 1/4"-1/2". I pocket carry mine, in a holster.
The only other 380 on the market that can compete with the P238 is either the Kahr P380 which is awesome or the Rohrbaugh but both are significantly more expensive.
The LCP, Taurus and P3AT are like HiPoints compared to the Sig. IMO.

scoutsabout
December 23, 2009, 02:20 AM
Tad & S-bob are echoing what I was going to say.

The Sig P238 is superior in almost every facet. With the slight increase in size and weight, you gain the following:

1. Single action trigger -- much improved speed & accuracy
2. Smaller recoil signature -- the LCP is kind of sharp
3. Full size sight posts -- makes aiming way more possible
4. Accessible slide lock lever
5. Same basic configuration as the 1911
6. Superior grip & trigger ergonomics

The only major differences between the 238 and a 1911 are:
1. The manual safety can remain activated during slide reciprication
2. With the hammer down, and the safety on, the slide will not reciprocate

The Sig P238 can be fired at distances and speeds that would be foolish to attempt with the LCP. I think the minor additions of size and weight are far outweighed by the increased capabilities. Considering that .380 is a relatively diminutive caliber, I am far more interested in carrying the gun that I can use substantially faster and more accurately, and at greater ranges.

Let me put it this way:

LCP: bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, r e - l o a d, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
SIG: babababababang-reload-babababababang.

:cool:

.

Girodin
December 23, 2009, 02:27 AM
I have the P238 and it is only slightly larger then a LCP or Keltec. By slightly I mean maybe two or three ounces loaded and 1/4"-1/2". I pocket carry mine, in a holster.

More like 5 ounces. I have a Mustang and it is my favorite .380 pocket pistol. The sig is closer in size and price to the PM9 than the LCP, MUCH smaller than the EMP.

The Mustang (and thus I imagine the Sig) is a better shooter but the LCP is a good pocket pistol. I personally do not find the LCP at all objectionable to shoot. It is not a target pistol but is more than accurate enough for its intended purpose.

NinjaFeint
December 23, 2009, 03:16 AM
Tad & S-bob are echoing what I was going to say.

The Sig P238 is superior in almost every facet. With the slight increase in size and weight, you gain the following:

1. Single action trigger -- much improved speed & accuracy
2. Smaller recoil signature -- the LCP is kind of sharp
3. Full size sight posts -- makes aiming way more possible
4. Accessible slide lock lever
5. Same basic configuration as the 1911
6. Superior grip & trigger ergonomics

The only major differences between the 238 and a 1911 are:
1. The manual safety can remain activated during slide reciprication
2. With the hammer down, and the safety on, the slide will not reciprocate

The Sig P238 can be fired at distances and speeds that would be foolish to attempt with the LCP. I think the minor additions of size and weight are far outweighed by the increased capabilities. Considering that .380 is a relatively diminutive caliber, I am far more interested in carrying the gun that I can use substantially faster and more accurately, and at greater ranges.

Let me put it this way:

LCP: bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, r e - l o a d, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
SIG: babababababang-reload-babababababang.

:cool:

.
I think you are ignoring the actual question. Maybe he doesn't want a safety or something else the 238 offers, such as being $200 more. I think you are confusing what you prefer with what he wants.

As to the OP, I would get the LCP as it stands or wait until enough TCP's hit the market to see how people's experience is with them. Also, shop around because the LCP is 269 around where I am. This is at multiple shops. My father has an LCP and it has run flawless. It is plenty accurate when I have shot it. Any small gun takes a little adjusting to due to the sight radius though.

scoutsabout
December 23, 2009, 03:45 AM
I think you are ignoring the actual question. Maybe he doesn't want a safety or something else the 238 offers, such as being $200 more. I think you are confusing what you prefer with what he wants.

Good point.

However, I don't put a price on survivability. I gladly took a loss to get rid of the sloppy LCP's my wife and I bought and replaced them with pocket pistols that could perform way, way better.

If the OP is on a budget... fine.

It the OP wants a venerable defensive firearm in .380... then it's the Sig P238, or the old Colt Mustang it was copied from.

You get what you pay for.

.

cyclopsshooter
December 23, 2009, 04:58 AM
You get what you pay for.

yup- though the lcr is a fine pistol for what it is, the mustang or the p238 are still a notch above in serviceability.

kokapelli
December 23, 2009, 09:51 AM
http://omploader.org/vMnkzYQ/Photo%2011.jpg

rhoggman
December 23, 2009, 11:27 AM
I'm not bashing the LCP, and the TCP has not been out long enough for real evaluation to take place; I have held one in a gunshop ($279 in Va Beach), and it felt good. I was impressed more by the stainless slide, and slide stop.

Other than that, I'm not sure their are any significant differences.

I wish I could post pictures of my LCP, and what the inside looks like. There is quite a bit of wear on the frame. Most significant and noticeable wear can be seen just below the feed ramp, and in the ejection port. The ejection port after 500 rounds or so looks like someone took rough grit sandpaper to it.

I'm sure everyone knows about the smiley's that LCPs are known for leaving on the tip of new rounds that are fed into the chamber when the weapon cycles. If not check it out. This is what causes the wear below the feed ramp. To check it out load a few rounds in the mag, and one in the barrel, fire, drop mag, take the live round from the barrel, and view bullet tip:)

Is my LCP reliabe,YES. Is it a good carry weapon, YES. Will I be able to carry and shoot it for 10 years, Ummmmm Maybe, or maybe not. Many people may not have put 500+ rounds through their LCPs, but I hate to see what it will look like at 1500+. I actually quit round counting around 420, so I'm sure I'm over 500 now. If any of my larger pistols wore like this they would be sold ASAP. The only thing I can compare the LCP to with respect to visable wear is a Walther P22.

I have a Walther P22 as well and over time it is basically eating itself alive... I'm not really complaining just stating the facts.

The Sig P238 is just not going to do this. I am also hearing results about the accuracy being better than a PPK, which on top of the benfit of it being a "forever gun" make it worth the price to me. Can you say Night Sites? Oh yeah and if you put from the rough they also make one with a rainbow slide. Sig hit a home run on this one. HEHEHE

Guns and more
December 23, 2009, 12:19 PM
I too looked at the sig but it seems like its too big for pocket carry. Am I right to believe its about the same size at the Springfield EMP?
Not even close.
I also have a Kahr PM-9 which I thought was perfect until I got the Sig. Although the Sig dimensions are a little smaller, it feels MUCH smaller in your hand. I think the Kahr is a perfect carry gun, but not pocket carry. I think the Sig may be the perfect pocket carry gun.
I may get an LCP just for fun someday, but I'll never get rid of the Sig.

TheProf
December 23, 2009, 01:51 PM
I like the LCP. It can go places where other guns can't. You can literally forget that its in your pocket. The LCP is very reliable...but it's limited to being a gun at "kissing distances".

The Sig P238 is just what others have said, very reliable, easy to shoot and make follow up shots, very accurate.... just make sure you buy Sig mags...not Colt mags with it.

I would get both and perhaps carry both?

03Shadowbob
December 23, 2009, 01:53 PM
http://www.ktog.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1252028874/7

Real good writeup on the difference between P3AT and P238.

memphisjim
December 23, 2009, 01:57 PM
then of coarse there is the gold standard the seecamp lws380 but the 800 dollar tag and year wait kept me off it

SmithMan
December 23, 2009, 06:49 PM
I had the same dilemma because I am retiring my old 469 as a daily carry piece. I really wanted the LCP and was in fact ready to buy one, but the guy at the store I usually go to broke out the TCP and when I compared them side by side I leaned toward the Taurus because of the general fit and finish, the fact that they were priced identically ,(even though the TCP was Stainless) and American made and the TCP came with a cool little Bulldog PDA belt case as part of the deal. Plus the TCP locks open after the last round. I am definitely now leaning toward the TCP. Hope this helps. If only Smith made something like this!

The Lone Haranguer
December 23, 2009, 07:33 PM
The Ruger, for customer service. Although the TCP and its big brother the 709 are quite attractive.

Magic_Man
December 23, 2009, 08:15 PM
LCP over the TCP just based on all the negative Taurus posts I see.

What is the P238 going for?

m2steven
December 23, 2009, 08:38 PM
The only pistol i've really grown to hate, even though it's been perfect, is my LCP. One of the pistols which had a problem but was fixed to "perfect" status is my Taurus 709. It's an incredible little pistol. Smooth and reliable. If the Taurus 380 is anything like the 709, I'd get it. So far i've not looked into it as I have plenty of 380s.

But I enjoy shooting my guns and the LCP is a bastard from the trigger pull to the recoil and the horrid grip I have on mine since I put the laser sight on it. The LCP is really difficult to keep on target for me. The 709 is easy to keep on target.

This thread turned into a sig p238 thread quickly, but that is a really nice 380. Now that i have the SLIM 9mm, I have decided not to get one, but i'm really attracted to that titanium rainbow version. It's purty!. I'd pay just to stare at it.

A p238 can be had for about 416 for the plain Jane to 650 or more for the dolled-up versions.

03Shadowbob
December 23, 2009, 08:49 PM
Here you go M2steven,
For every quarter you put in the machine the curtain comes back a little further. :)
I paid a little over $450 for mine. It is the top of the line. I got it for cost.
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s113/BJCWALL/guns/SigP238003.jpg

gglass
December 24, 2009, 12:05 AM
If you ever have an issue with a LCP, you will find that Ruger's customer service is second to none. You will have shipping paid by Ruger both ways and have your LCP back before you know it... They will likely even throw in a free mag or ball cap.

If you ever have an issue with a TCP, you will find that Taurus' customer service is about as responsive as a dead cat. You will have to pay shipping to the authorized repair shop and you will get your TCP back when they damn well feel like it... Or maybe even longer.

Speedo66
December 24, 2009, 01:22 AM
I just bought an LCP because I wanted the smallest, lightest, most reasonably priced, reliable and powerful pocket gun I could find.

I didn't want something "almost as small", "almost as light" , etc. You can keep rationalizing something a little bigger, a little heavier until you're back to full sized pistols again.

I don't intend to target shoot it, I don't intend to fire thousands of rounds through it. I don't intend to preserve it as a collectible. I just want it to work if I need it.

From everything I've read, this gun is the ideal pocket pistol.

m2steven
December 24, 2009, 07:10 AM
that is simply beautiful and if you keep posting pictures, I'll have to buy one!.

conhntr
December 24, 2009, 09:26 AM
speedo a glock 21 is just a little bit bigger and its a 45!

19-3Ben
December 24, 2009, 12:03 PM
Personally I love my LCP. It has a smooth trigger, and I can hit reliably and accurately at the distances meant for such a gun. It also is as smooth as many guns that are much more expensive. I own a couple of nice guns, from a Gemini customs SP-101, to a Kahr K40 etc... The LCP does not come to those standards. BUT it's damn close. The slide doesn't rattle. Very fine fit, smooth finish, nice trigger, etc... I've also never ever had a failure of any kind with it with any kind of ammo. My friend brought his P3AT to the range with some crap russian ammo. It choked every ~3rd round. Popped the same ammo into my LCP, and it ran like a top.

Definitely better than the $300 I paid for it!!! It has a TON of value built into it. It's also nice that it is backed by a company with some of the best customer service in the industry.

Considering that .380 is a relatively diminutive caliber, I am far more interested in carrying the gun that I can use substantially faster and more accurately, and at greater ranges.

I find this statement hard to follow. I can fire the LCP into a 6" circle on a "blue man" target's chest at 50 feet. That is well past the distance such a pistol is meant for. At 20' and less, i can keep every shot in the center of the forehead with no problem at all. How much farther are you really planning on shooting this thing? It's a tiny little .380. .380 is already not a powerful round. When you pair it up with a short barrel, what do you think happens to the power?
So when you talk about shooting at greater ranges, it's hard for me to imagine what ranges you are talking about. 50' is really stretching it for this round, at at that distance, kill-shots are easy with the LCP.

rhoggman
December 24, 2009, 12:09 PM
then of coarse there is the gold standard the seecamp lws380 but the 800 dollar tag and year wait kept me off it

I always here people making this claim, but I have never really agreed for a few reasons.....

1) Value - Everyone is always complaining about the price tag

2) Availability - Once again this is always an issue whenever "Seacamp" is mentioned

3) Because they are both 1)expensive and 2)elusive there is the aura of 3)Greatness, which in my opinion is a mystical phenominon birthed by points 1 & 2.

4) 11.5 lb trigger pull (Do I need to explain this?) Even the NAA Gardian has a lighter trigger pull of 10lbs.....LCP 8 lbs.... ***???? Gold standard my white buttocks....

5) Mag release is on the bottom of the magazine well. I guess this comes under pure opinion; however, I'm not sure I would want that feature in the event of requiring a quick reload. It would be a negative for me because every pistol I have ever trained with has been engineered relatively in the same manner, with a mag release on the grip. With the exception of Walther firearms which have mag releases on the trigger gaurd I'm not sure a variation to this on a modern pistol is well excepted.

6) The only reason I would choose a Seacamp over any alternative P3AT, LCP, TCP, P238, NAA Gaurdian is for resale value. If I were being given a choice of which firearm I would like to have given to me at no cost I would choose the seacamp, and then go buy 2 or three of the above.

Would anyone like to start making wagers on how long it will take the Sig P238 to become the new "gold standard" in this realm?

Shazbot
June 9, 2010, 11:02 PM
I bought a Ruger LCP and I did not like it, i had to push the mag release to get the magazine in. The ammo did not feed (it would hitch when loading the first round) it was frustrating the trigger pull threw off my shot even though it was somewhat accurate. The TCP has half the weight on the trigger. I was able to get two more shots off faster with the TCP. The Kevin or micro eagle is a goodern as well as the p238.

Echo17
June 10, 2010, 04:57 AM
The only thing the Taurus has over the LCP as far as my preferences are concerned is LSHO... and that's about it.

I work in firearms at Gander Mtn and it seems like more Tauruses come back in for repair to our gunsmith than any other manufacturer. Most of the guys I work with try to talk people out of buying them. Its very strange to me... I want to like Taurus. I wish I could like Taurus. I like a number of their designs, how they feel, how they shoot, and their prices are good. I just can't seem to forget about the serious reliability issues I have seen with them... although is a widespread lack of reliability forgivable anyway? Not IMO.

I do know many people who own Taurus products and are very happy with them, with no problems however, and I'm sure a vast majority are problem-free. The percentage of lemons just seems to be waaaay higher than the industry average.

I'm not a huge fan of either gun (or pocket pistols in general). My hands are too big to shoot them comfortably and operate the controls without adjusting the gun in my hand. However Ruger has - as mentioned above - a high level of customer service and overall they have a much better reputation for reliability from my experience. My dad has an LCP and likes it. In the end it's still your own preference. Just my .02

Late Thought Edit: The Micro Eagle has such a high potential for railroading your hand it comes with a warning tag from the factory. SHOOT IT BEFORE YOU BUY ONE!

harmon rabb
June 10, 2010, 09:10 AM
Tad & S-bob are echoing what I was going to say.

The Sig P238 is superior in almost every facet. With the slight increase in size and weight, you gain the following:

1. Single action trigger -- much improved speed & accuracy
2. Smaller recoil signature -- the LCP is kind of sharp
3. Full size sight posts -- makes aiming way more possible
4. Accessible slide lock lever
5. Same basic configuration as the 1911
6. Superior grip & trigger ergonomics

The only major differences between the 238 and a 1911 are:
1. The manual safety can remain activated during slide reciprication
2. With the hammer down, and the safety on, the slide will not reciprocate

The Sig P238 can be fired at distances and speeds that would be foolish to attempt with the LCP. I think the minor additions of size and weight are far outweighed by the increased capabilities. Considering that .380 is a relatively diminutive caliber, I am far more interested in carrying the gun that I can use substantially faster and more accurately, and at greater ranges.

Let me put it this way:

LCP: bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, r e - l o a d, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang.
SIG: babababababang-reload-babababababang

My boss carries a 238 that I have fired back to back with my LCP. I agree with everything you say ...

Except if you're moving up to 238 size and weight, you might as well move to a PF-9 or PT709 and go for a 9mm ;)

With respect to the LCP vs. TCP, well, I haven't fired a TCP. If the TCP trigger is anything like the PT709 trigger, though, that right there is a reason to buy it over the LCP.

The only pistol i've really grown to hate, even though it's been perfect, is my LCP.

haha. you sound like my father. every time we go to the range, he'll fire his LCP some, then spend 10 minutes bitching about how much he hates the thing.

harmon rabb
June 10, 2010, 09:13 AM
If you ever have an issue with a TCP, you will find that Taurus' customer service is about as responsive as a dead cat. You will have to pay shipping to the authorized repair shop and you will get your TCP back when they damn well feel like it... Or maybe even longer.

that's apparently no longer true. from all reports, taurus will pay for shipping both ways now, and has a 2 week turnaround. quite frankly, for some of the markets they have entered, they need to do this. how can they expect to compete with ruger and kel-tec in the pocket market if they have awful customer service compared to the two?

kokapelli
June 10, 2010, 10:20 AM
The only thing the Taurus has over the LCP as far as my preferences are concerned is LSHO... and that's about it.I'm not a huge fan of either gun (or pocket pistols in general). My hands are too big to shoot them comfortably and operate the controls without adjusting the gun in my hand. However Ruger has - as mentioned above - a high level of customer service and overall they have a much better reputation for reliability from my experience. My dad has an LCP and likes it. In the end it's still your own preference. Just my .02

Late Thought Edit: The Micro Eagle has such a high potential for railroading your hand it comes with a warning tag from the factory. SHOOT IT BEFORE YOU BUY ONE!

In addition to the last round lock back the TCP trigger is far superior to the LCP and felt recoil is much lower with the TCP. I only have about 200 rounds through my TCP and so far it's been 100%. If it continues that way I'll be more than happy with it

As for the Micro railroading your hand, that might be true for someone with very thick hands but as you can see my hand isn't even close to being bitten by the slide. By the way my Micro shoots every kind of ammo and never complains!
http://4jer.250free.com/temp/Micro%20DE.jpg

3bird
June 10, 2010, 10:28 AM
I had to give up on my LCP. As many others have said, the gun is what it is. I don't care about the smilies, finish wear or kissing distance accuracy. I was even willing to work with it on finding ammo it liked. I had a ton of light primer strikes with Remington Express, Golden Saber and Aguila. I havn't heard others complain about that, so maybe it's just my gun.
The unforgivable fault for me was when I do double or triple taps one handed, my thumb hits the mag release and out it falls every time. That just won't do, so sorry Elsie, it's just not working out.

1911WB
June 10, 2010, 10:41 AM
The Ruger LCP is fine for its intended purpose- a "last ditch" close encounter defense pistol. My biggest complaint is with relatively hot (not +P) ammo I can't stand more than a mag full because of the punishing recoil and trigger finger slap. WB

Just One Shot
June 10, 2010, 10:49 AM
If it say Taurus on it, I don't want it!
:neener:

There are many Taurus owners out there who have never had a problem with their gun but I can remember when they were like the Highpoints of today, cheap and not very reliable (I know, I know some of you have a Highpoint that's totally reliable).

Getting a dependable one was like trying to win the lottery. You put down your money and you take your chances. While Taurus has come a long way since then I just can't bring myself to own one. It's a personal thing and may not apply to you.
:)

harmon rabb
June 10, 2010, 10:50 AM
The Ruger LCP is fine for its intended purpose- a "last ditch" close encounter defense pistol. My biggest complaint is with relatively hot (not +P) ammo I can't stand more than a mag full because of the punishing recoil and trigger finger slap. WB

you think that's bad, try some of the buffalo bore +p stuff. it works and cycles fine in my lcp, but my god, more than 3-4 rounds and your hand is screaming for relief.

kokapelli
June 11, 2010, 11:29 AM
Would anyone like to start making wagers on how long it will take the Sig P238 to become the new "gold standard" in this realm?
As far as I am concerned it already is.

Bobandshawn
June 11, 2010, 12:07 PM
Can anyone tell me how the P238 compares to a Glock 26? I carry the Glock as my EDC. Other than the Sig looking like a fantastically cool and desirable gun - does it make any sense size/caliber/weight wise?

Thanks,
Bob

kokapelli
June 11, 2010, 02:03 PM
Can anyone tell me how the P238 compares to a Glock 26? I carry the Glock as my EDC. Other than the Sig looking like a fantastically cool and desirable gun - does it make any sense size/caliber/weight wise?

Thanks,
Bob
As far as I'm concerned the Sig P238 is head and shoulders above the rest with the possible exception of the Kahr 380 which I have not shot.

The P238 is more like a 1911 than a Glock. It has a single action trigger like a 1911 but heavier which I think is good for a pocket carried gun.

All the controls like the safety, slide lock and mag release are similar to a 1911 and the Sig also has excellent sites which most of the pocket 380s don't have.

I have a P-3AT, TCP, Micro Desert Eagle and a Sig P238 and at one time or other I had a Diamondback, NAA Guardian and a Barretta Tomcat and I have shot my son's LCP. The ones I don't have anymore are gone because they were either unreliable or didn't shoot very well for me.


http://4jer.250free.com/images/Pocket%20pistols.JPG

Steve 48
June 11, 2010, 03:53 PM
I had a P3AT, a LCP and a TCP, I kept the TCP. Its more acurrate and I love the trigger and shot placement. No problems here!!!

harmon rabb
June 11, 2010, 03:59 PM
How much better is the TCP trigger than the LCP trigger? I played with a TCP at the store the other day, hoping the trigger would be like my 709, but it was heavier. :( Didn't feel good enough to me to warrant me picking it up, as I have a LCP that functions flawlessly.

kokapelli
June 11, 2010, 05:20 PM
How much better is the TCP trigger than the LCP trigger? I played with a TCP at the store the other day, hoping the trigger would be like my 709, but it was heavier. :( Didn't feel good enough to me to warrant me picking it up, as I have a LCP that functions flawlessly.
IMO I think the TCP trigger is fine for a pocket pistol and over all like the TCP.

As I stated earlier I like my P238 best of all but for the money the TCP is a pretty good gun.

PX15
June 11, 2010, 06:30 PM
JMOfartO:

Respectfully, you realize that all we are doing here is just swapping opinions on the pistol WE each prefer because we are happy with it?

What is perfect for one person might be absolutely the wrong choice for another.

Personally I have two 380cal. firearms..

A Seecamp LWS380, and a Ruger LCP w/CT laser.

I like 'em both.:)

Both have been absolutely reliable right out the little white cardboard box they came in and RELIABILITY is, for me, JOB ONE in a weapon used for self defense.

But just because I already have two excellent performing 380cal. pistols does not mean that I'm through looking..

I really, really like the "looks" of the Sig P238.. But I keep reading horror stories about reliability.. Plus I'm a lefty and the little Mustang Clone is not lefty friendly. Even so, I'll still probably get one, "just fer" later on down the road when perhaps the bugs are eliminated..

I don't want a Taurus anything. Just too many customers unhappy with the quality, and the Lifetime Warranty provided by folks who apparently manage to screw up such a great concept with POOR warranty work.

I like the looks of the small Kahr 380, but Kahr's are apparently "hit and miss" in ALL their models.. I don't expect the new one to be different. Plus I don't want some manufacturer telling me I have to "run 200rds thru it to determine reliability..

Actually I have an LWS380 and LCP w/CT, while my wife has an LWS32, and a Ruger LCP. We both, like both.. :D

I don't care how you keep adding weight and size and then brag about how much better (or lighter) the recoil and accuracy might be in any given comparison.

My Seecamp is absolutely the smallest 380 I've ever owned or shot, and it's extremely tiny size is perfect for concealed carry, and perfect for making the miniature pocket rocket a handful to shoot.

But, you can cc the Seecamp almost anytime, anywhere, easily concealed.. The LCP is just enough larger that it cannot make the same trips, but IS still a very, very good pistol.

Of course just because I like the Seecamp, or the LCP doesn't mean squat to what YOU might like, or want, or prefer in YOUR cc choice.

So, all I can say is that I would recommend either the Seecamp LWS380 to anyone because MINE (and those of my wife)have been 100% reliable and more than self defense accurate, and I would equally recommend the very good Ruger LCP, (at roughtly 1/3 the price)to anyone who can make do with it's slightly large size.

Both of my examples have done the job they are designed to do, and that's all I ask.

IF YOU don't like Seecamps or Ruger's that's perfectly ok with me. I don't like Tauri' and I'm willing to bet that you could care less about my opinion on the Taurus products, and their Customer Service reputation.

We're just swapping personal opinions, and here's mine, and no offense intended to anyone.

Opposing opinions cheerfully welcomed and shortly thereafter ignored because of the short term memory loss I enjoy at 67 years old. ;)

Best Wishes,

jesse


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_1970.jpg

kokapelli
June 13, 2010, 06:27 PM
I don't know how some figure the P238 is quite a bit larger than the LCP/TCP.

They are so close in size you have to hold them side by side and look very closely to see the very slight difference.

In the picture below my P238 is on the bottom right opposite my PM9 and you can clearly see that the P238 is significantly smaller than the PM9.

By the way someone mentioned to not get Colt Mustang magazines for the P238. Well I have two that work perfectly in my P238 and they only cost $16.99 each from midway.

http://4jer.250free.com/images/Pocket%20pistols.JPG

docsleepy
June 13, 2010, 07:50 PM
I looked at the 238 and also the LCP. I bought the TCP

I own only two Taurus' -- the 99 (which is mechanically an early Beretta, but with adjustable sights) and the TCP. Both have been flawless. This is just MY experience and I am choosy about WHICH Taurus I will purchase, but these two (the PT92/99 and the TCP) seem to be doing well. I cannot speak for others.

The 238 is considerably larger; I have a 2" snubbie for when I can deal with something that size. The TCP/LCP size works for dress pants front pocket carry (pocket holster), which was my particular need.

I have no reason to bash the LCP. I just liked the Taurus; stainless, hold open, liked the trigger (my wife could pull it---a significant issue for us). It has been flawless.

Reload testing showed that it would cycle well at least as low as Win231 2.5 grains -- suggesting it had a LOT of leeway on the powder. Photos of both the LCP and the TCP barrel show a small unsupported segment (probably to enhance feeding reliability, because these are DEFENSE firearms, not primarily target ones). I had some slight bulging of stock Remington UMC cases when fired in hot weather, which did not happen with Winchester. I repeated the test with handloads and verified that at the top end of charges, the remi brass would begin to bulge in my TCP where Winchester brass (which is widely regarded as thicker, or stronger) would not. I don't have an LCP so I cannot comment. Photos in reviews suggested their barrels were pretty identically made in this regard. So if you want to reload, I'd recommend Winchester over remington.

Accuracy has been WAY better than I expected. Almost as good as what I can do with a full size (heavy) 9mm. This was completely unexpected. This firearm has done what I wanted, and at a bargain basement price compared to my snubbies and my full size 9mmm....hundreds cheaper. Your mileage may vary.

searcher451
June 13, 2010, 08:36 PM
The SIGs seem to sell for $500 and up:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/Search.htm?T=sig+p238

The Ruger is a nice little pistol for what it is -- a handy, accessible pocket pistol. It's not built for the ages, but that's not the purpose of the thing.

kokapelli
June 13, 2010, 09:25 PM
I looked at the 238 and also the LCP. I bought the TCP

The 238 is considerably larger; I have a 2" snubbie for when I can deal with something that size. The TCP/LCP size works for dress pants front pocket carry (pocket holster), which was my particular need.

Accuracy has been WAY better than I expected. Almost as good as what I can do with a full size (heavy) 9mm. This was completely unexpected. This firearm has done what I wanted, and at a bargain basement price compared to my snubbies and my full size 9mmm....hundreds cheaper. Your mileage may vary.
The P238 is NOT "considerably larger" than the TCP/LCP and certainly much smaller than the already small PM9. Yes it is slightly larger than the TCP but just slightly.

I have a TCP and it works fine but it is not even close to having the shooting level of the P238.

For size comparison, here is my P238 next to my PM9 and we know the PM9 is quite small.
http://omploader.org/vNGxrbA/238-PM9.gif

docsleepy
June 13, 2010, 10:25 PM
You know, when I look at their measurements, you're sorta right, there is not a lot of difference. However, when you multiply all their dimensions to find the size of a box that would enclose them, the tcp fits within 14.6 in-cubed, while the 238 fits within 23.6 in-cubed. The 238 is small, however. By comparison, my snubbie fits within a box of about 35.8 in-cubed. Clearly the 238 is smaller than the snubbie.

References where I got the sizes:
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus-PT738.htm
http://www.gunsholstersandgear.com/2009/01/14/sig-sauer-p238-subcompact-single-action-380-acp-pistol/
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=426513

kokapelli
June 13, 2010, 10:34 PM
I don't keep my P238 in boxes but I do know the P238 drops into my pocket as easily as the TCP does.

harmon rabb
June 14, 2010, 07:47 AM
depends on how big your pocket is, i guess :D

kokapelli
June 14, 2010, 03:23 PM
The size of the P238 is misrepresented in this thread and viewing this video clearly shows just how small it is.
http://www.youtube.com/v/1GTx4Rh2f0E&hl=en

docsleepy
June 14, 2010, 08:38 PM
Fits very nicely in his palm!
Quite a small firearm. Probably I should have said "slightly" larger!

akadave
June 23, 2010, 03:47 PM
I can shoot the LCR all day with hot or standard ammo. It may be your grips too. Im not sure if there alternative grips available. The LCR is suprisingly accurate as well. I shoot it better than my S&W M&P 340...which bothers me a bit..lol!

stchman
June 23, 2010, 04:41 PM
Got to love the Sig folks. I thought the OP asked for opinions on the LCP and TCP. Where does the Sig P238 fit come into play?

From Ruger's website:
Length: 5.16"
Width: 0.82"
Height: 3.60"
Weight: 9.40 oz.

From Sig's website
Overall Length 5.5 in
Overall Height 3.9 in
Overall Width 1.1 in
Weight w/Mag 15.2 oz

Looks like the Sig is longer, taller, wider, and heavier while having the same mag capacity. Not to mention it costs about $250 more. You can almost get (2) LCPs for the price of on P238. The Sig might be a better pistol, but not 2X better.

I own an LCP and it runs very well. I did not buy it to be a range toy to run thousands of rounds through.

As far as durability how do people think them purty wood grips are going to hold up over time during pocket carry. I imagine they are going to get all scratched up and the finish will start to come off the slide over time.

I have had nothing but good service from Ruger firearms and their customer service is excellent.

stchman
June 23, 2010, 04:44 PM
To the folks shooting +P ammo in their LCP. Ruger specifically state in the owners manual to NOT SHOOT +P ammo. I had Ruger CS tell me that the gun could break and injury could result. I happen to agree, the gun is very small and light, it has very little mass to absorb all that energy.

MCgunner
June 23, 2010, 08:02 PM
One is made and serviced here in the USA and one isn't. That's enough for me. So, I bought an LCP.

Wrong. The TCP is built in and serviced in Florida which I believe is in the USA.

MCgunner
June 23, 2010, 08:12 PM
And, well, if the Sig is going to be brought into a TCP//LCP discussion, why not consider the Kel Tec P11, 10+1 rounds of 9mm +P. Mines 14 years old and 100 percent reliable and 3.5" 25 yards accurate. Made in the USA with excellent CS I'm told, too. It's about the same size at the P238. Seems like a more direct comparison than Sig vs LCP/TCP in size. Which would I rather carry, 9mm +P hi cap or .380? DUH

bigjohn08
June 23, 2010, 08:42 PM
At the shop I work at we've not heard a lot of good about the TCP's as for the LCP we have sold a lot of them to concealed carry holders and law enforcement the main gripe we get is that the trigger pull is heavy and if carried everday the slides will rust especially in the rear. We started offering a duracoat package for them and it has proved popular so far. Love it or hate it duracoating the slides seem to help with the rusting problems and a lot of people love the color change from the run of the mill black. It's become pretty popular. Can't understand why RUGER didn't make the slides out of stainless and anodize them black like SIG does.

kokapelli
June 23, 2010, 09:07 PM
I own an LCP and it runs very well. I did not buy it to be a range toy to run thousands of rounds through.

As far as durability how do people think them purty wood grips are going to hold up over time during pocket carry. I imagine they are going to get all scratched up and the finish will start to come off the slide over time.

I have had nothing but good service from Ruger firearms and their customer service is excellent.

Yes Ruger is a good company and I own a few of their guns but I shot my son's LCP and as far as I was concerned it isn't what I want. I have a P-3AT that I like better and I like the P238 way, way better than both the LCP and P-3AT. My son shot my P238 and his LCP is history and yes he has rosewood grips on his new P238 too.

I have had wood grips on other guns and they have not been a problem. As a matter of fact I pocket carried an NAA 22 magnum pistol for years and it's rosewood grips look as good today as when they were new.

Since you say "Looks like the Sig is longer, taller, wider" you must not have actually held one let alone shot one! Why is it you feel compelled to knock a pistol you obviously know little about?

If your satisfied with your LCP thats fine and I haven't any problem with the LCP, but I think the sig is a better pistol by a long shot and yes I gladly paid for that and I like having rosewood grips and I don't know why that bothers you, you need to learn to live with it.

Yes the P238 cost more than the LCP and your right it's not 2X better, probably more like 3 or 4 times better and believe me it's worth every penny of it.

As far as shooting thousands of rounds through it, you bet I will. It's the pistol thats in my pocket everyday and I want to be as good shooting it as I can.

And it "Looks like the Sig is longer, taller, wider", that sounds like it's huge compared to the LCP!

How much bigger is the P238 compared to the LCP? Take a look. Here they are overlaying each other. As far as thick, aside from the safety, they are pretty close in width.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_NAcjcp7fo2E/S4bZGPVQCKI/AAAAAAAAAV0/zQqqohQ568M/DSC00184.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_NAcjcp7fo2E/S4bZGaeu3PI/AAAAAAAAAV4/FNB6-ka2fCo/DSC00185.JPG
I will never understand why some people have to knock pistols other people have without good reason.

benzy2
June 23, 2010, 10:15 PM
I must say the P238 is a pistol I want to love but can't. It has those great 1911 lines. It's small enough for pocket carry in most situations a LCP/TCP can. It has a SAO trigger. But the problems seem unending with them. I wouldn't doubt it is the vast minority making a lot of wake but for a defensive pistol, reliability is the biggest issue for me. I want a pistol I can count on. I have not had a single issue with my LCP. Every trigger pull went bang (short of those where I was dryfiring). I personally haven't noticed the recoil to be excessive. Compared to the little FEG PA63 I think the Ruger feels mild. I also find accuracy to be good enough. Slow fire I tend to be getting 2-3" groups at 7-10 yards and rapid fire is WELL within a torso size group. I'm not looking for better shooting than that from this pistol. At the range I would enjoy a lighter pull, but in the defense setting it is fine.

I guess for me the LCP hits all the notes needed. It's 100% reliable. It's chest accurate in rapid fire at 10 yards. It isn't so unpleasant to shoot that I can't run at least 50 rounds through it a session. It fits size wise with my goals. It was priced where I like. It has CS to back up any malfunctions.

The TCP does most of that but I have heard a few issues with reliability and CS is practically nonexistent.

The Sig p238 is a great pistol when it works. It is a bit of a show piece and with the reports of recoil springs giving up after a few hundred rounds I would be hesitant to use it as a defensive piece. The price is a bit above what I would like to pay for a gun I know is going to be beaten on but if it buys reliability I can justify the price. Unfortunately that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems you buy the looks, the feel, the trigger, the accuracy, but not the reliability. If you have one that has worked for thousands of rounds without issue, enjoy it and shoot the sucker. Until I see a better trend I am waiting them out.

harmon rabb
June 23, 2010, 10:34 PM
I guess for me the LCP hits all the notes needed. It's 100% reliable.

That, and the size, is about all I can say good about my LCP. I hate the trigger and I'm not a very good shot with it. But the darn thing has functioned as well as my glock from day 1, and it carries as easy as a cell phone. I guess that counts for something :D

kokapelli
June 23, 2010, 10:41 PM
I personally believe most of the P238 problems were due people installing the recoil spring backwards. In any event Sig has upgraded the recoil spring and my P238 has the newer spring and has so far been a joy to shoot.

When people point out that there have been problems with the P238 or the TCP and then espouse how trouble free LCPs are try doing a Google search for "LCP problems" and you will get 340,000 items. Hardly what I would call a trouble free gun!

I'm not singling out the LCP but it's been so hyped as trouble free I wanted to point out "it ain't so!"

MCgunner
June 23, 2010, 10:53 PM
I will never understand why some people have to knock pistols other people have without good reason.

Then don't buy a Taurus. Everyone (on the internet at least) will pee in your cherrios. What matters is what works for you. For me, same size as Sig lists that P238, I can carry a high cap Kel Tec 9. I really prefer DA for pocket carry, too. Not into SA guns.

kokapelli
June 23, 2010, 11:16 PM
Then don't buy a Taurus. Everyone (on the internet at least) will pee in your cherrios. What matters is what works for you. For me, same size as Sig lists that P238, I can carry a high cap Kel Tec 9. I really prefer DA for pocket carry, too. Not into SA guns.
I have a TCP and think is a pretty good gun for it's price. I also had a PF9 and it worked ok but my PM9 is so much easier to shoot and far more accurate so the PF9 went bye bye.

benzy2
June 24, 2010, 12:21 AM
When people point out that there have been problems with the P238 or the TCP and then espouse how trouble free LCPs are try doing a Google search for "LCP problems" and you will get 340,000 items. Hardly what I would call a trouble free gun!
I think that stat is a bit misrepresented, at least with the current offerings. The recall and the issues it addressed have to play a large portion of those hits. Add on that the LCP is basically the single pistol that pushed the .380 craze, or at least the biggest player, and those numbers quickly become over inflated compared to the others in the class. How many LCPs do you think are out there per TCP or p238? I bet its well over 20 to 1. I know locally the LCP is and has been one of if not the best seller for many stores. I have asked about their TCP and P238 volume and a couple shops have sold a handful at best and the others haven't sold any.

I won't say every LCP is perfect. I will say mine has been so far. I think currently Ruger is putting out one of the most reliable .380 options made. Maybe the issues with the p238 are user error, I don't know. Maybe the TCP gets a bit of bad press strictly for being Taurus. All I can say for certain is that two LCPs I have are flawless to date. They are both post recall. For me, the current Ruger LCP appears in my eyes to be at the top of the list in the reliability category. And in my eyes that is the single most important factor in a defense pistol.

For fun I googled "LCP problems" and received "about 292,000" results. Then I went to advance search and put exclude all results that include the word recall and the number dropped to 1,310. Something tells me the mass of those hits really were dealing with the recall and pre-recall issues.

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 12:40 AM
I think that stat is a bit misrepresented, at least with the current offerings. The recall and the issues it addressed have to play a large portion of those hits. Add on that the LCP is basically the single pistol that pushed the .380 craze, or at least the biggest player, and those numbers quickly become over inflated compared to the others in the class. How many LCPs do you think are out there per TCP or p238? I bet its well over 20 to 1. I know locally the LCP is and has been one of if not the best seller for many stores. I have asked about their TCP and P238 volume and a couple shops have sold a handful at best and the others haven't sold any.

I won't say every LCP is perfect. I will say mine has been so far. I think currently Ruger is putting out one of the most reliable .380 options made. Maybe the issues with the p238 are user error, I don't know. Maybe the TCP gets a bit of bad press strictly for being Taurus. All I can say for certain is that two LCPs I have are flawless to date. They are both post recall. For me, the current Ruger LCP appears in my eyes to be at the top of the list in the reliability category. And in my eyes that is the single most important factor in a defense pistol.

For fun I googled "LCP problems" and received "about 292,000" results. Then I went to advance search and put exclude all results that include the word recall and the number dropped to 1,310. Something tells me the mass of those hits really were dealing with the recall and pre-recall issues.
The LCP started the 380 craze! Oh please! Kel-Tec was pumping out 1000 P3ATs a week for at least three years before Ruger even began imitating the P3AT.

Of course those figures are not a true reflection of how many problems there are with the little Ruger but they do show the LCP us not the trouble free pistol a lot of people want us to think it is.

David E
June 24, 2010, 01:37 AM
I shot a Sig .380 I had in the shop recently. This target was the FIRST TIME I'd ever shot it. The gun is very shootable.

Paper was placed 5+ yds away. Start position was high ready. I used a Colt Mustang magazine. (no problems at all)

I used a shot timer, so the time written is the elapsed time from the start signal to the last shot.

If you're comfortable with a .380 for defense, this is a very good choice.

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g311/Sooper1/Mobile%20Uploads/DSC00384.jpg

MCgunner
June 24, 2010, 10:49 AM
If I get a micro .380, I'll get the stainless slide TCP without trepidation. I like it, points well, love the stainless slide. But, I can carry my 9x19 Kel Tec or my 9x18 P64 Mak for 99 percent of my carry and never carry the little Grendel P12 I have now. It's a little thicker than the LCP, but otherwise the same size and a couple of ounces heavier. For that, I get 12 rounds capacity. But, I never carry it. The P11 or the P64 carry nearly as small. The P64 is more accurate and the P11 is more accurate and a LOT more powerful. I shoot both of these guns well, so I just really prefer them to any of the .380s I might buy. I doubt I'd ever carry one if I bought it. I might just buy one anyway, but for the fact that .380 brass is hard to come by. 9x19 is all over the ground at the range for the taking. :D

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 11:29 AM
If I get a micro .380, I'll get the stainless slide TCP without trepidation. I like it, points well, love the stainless slide. But, I can carry my 9x19 Kel Tec or my 9x18 P64 Mak for 99 percent of my carry and never carry the little Grendel P12 I have now. It's a little thicker than the LCP, but otherwise the same size and a couple of ounces heavier. For that, I get 12 rounds capacity. But, I never carry it. The P11 or the P64 carry nearly as small. The P64 is more accurate and the P11 is more accurate and a LOT more powerful. I shoot both of these guns well, so I just really prefer them to any of the .380s I might buy. I doubt I'd ever carry one if I bought it. I might just buy one anyway, but for the fact that .380 brass is hard to come by. 9x19 is all over the ground at the range for the taking. :D
The TCP is not a bad choice.

I also thought I would like to carry a 9mm and I have a PM9 that I thought I would carry most of the time, but the size difference between the PM9 and P238/TCP is substantial and I almost always end up carrying a 380.

Here's my P238 and PM9.
http://omploader.org/vNGxrbA/238-PM9.gif

MCgunner
June 24, 2010, 11:48 AM
I don't know about the PM9, but the P11 I have near matches the P238 dimensions listed here, fractions of an inch longer and taller, same width, same unloaded weight, though 10 rounds of 9mm weighs a little more in the magazine.

From Sig's website
Overall Length 5.5 in
Overall Height 3.9 in
Overall Width 1.1 in
Weight w/Mag 15.2 oz

From the Kel Tec site:

Weight unloaded: 14 oz. 400g
Loaded magazine: 6 oz. 159g
Length: 5.6" 142mm
Height: 4.3" 109mm
Width: 1" 26mm
Barrel Length: 3.1" 79mm
Sight radius: 4.6" 116mm
Muzzle Energy Max: 400ft-lbs 540J
Capacity: 10 + 1
Trigger Pull: 9 lbs 40N

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 03:22 PM
I don't know about the PM9, but the P11 I have near matches the P238 dimensions listed here, fractions of an inch longer and taller, same width, same unloaded weight, though 10 rounds of 9mm weighs a little more in the magazine.
Really! Well it may be interest to you to know that the PM9 and P11 have exactly the same dimensions and when I put my PM9 into my pocket it's a very tight fit but when I drop my P238 into my pocket it feels very close to the size of my TCP and or my P-3AT.

Now look at my photo of my P238 and and my PM9 and tell me they are about or nearly the same size!

http://omploader.org/vNGxrbA/238-PM9.gif

Here is a shot of my pocket pistol collection with my PM9 and P238 opposite each other on the bottom and despite your opinion that the P11/PM9 and the P238 are approximately the same size, clearly anyone that isn't visually impaired can see that simply isn't the case!
http://4jer.250free.com/images/Pocket%20pistols.JPG

MCgunner
June 24, 2010, 03:50 PM
Sig
Overall Length 5.5 in
Overall Height 3.9 in
Overall Width 1.1 in
Weight w/Mag 15.2 oz

Kahr
Length: 5.35"
Height 4.0"
Width: 0.94" (24 mm)
Weight: 15 oz (425g)

KT P11
Length: 5.6"
Height: 4.3"
Width: 1"
Weight unloaded: 14 oz.

According to what I can find, the PM9 is slightly shorter in Length and height than the P11, an ounce heavier, a little narrower, not enough difference that I'd think it make a difference in a pocket. I have no problem with the P11. In fact, I have no problem pocketing my slightly larger Taurus M85UL revolver. There are a lot of guys that pocket carry 642s and other J frames. Maybe you need bigger pockets? Time to go shopping for clothes? Just sayin'. :D

Not knockin' the sig, just you could be carrying a 9. Suit yourself. I often carry my P64 in 9x18 just because I like it. I do understand that. :D

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=119278&d=1270732910

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 04:03 PM
I like my clothes the way they are and I just don't feel comfortable with the PM9 or P11 in my pocket.

I had a P11 about 8 or 9 years ago but could never get use to the trigger. When KT came out with the PF9 I thought I might like it and IMO it's trigger wasn't bad but the PM9 is so much better I decided to get rid of the PF9 and I carry a 380 most of the time anyway but I always have a hi capacity 9mm nearby in the car.

MCgunner
June 24, 2010, 04:13 PM
I prefer a long trigger pull in a pocket pistol and I shoot it well. To each his own on that.

I ride bikes a lot, don't carry a "car gun" when I'm in the car. What's on me is what I got. Mostly in summer I pocket carry. I'm retired, so i can wear what I want. I always could anyway having a technical job, not an office guy.

Now, my P11 gets the most carry, but I'm not one of those guys that thinks a .380, even a .22, will bounce off. I feel pretty confident in .380 and 9x18 to do the job, I just have been shooting this P11 for a long time and, well, 9x19+P does have the edge, plus the thing has more firepower. It's just a no brainer for me why I carry it and shoot it so much. I do like the DA, safe, long, very smooth with a slight stage to allow for excellent shot placement in slow fire. But, I've gotten used to it. It takes a few hundred rounds. It is an inherently safe trigger for pocket carry, but then I'm not saying the Kahr or the Ruger or the Sig isn't. If I carried the sig, I'd probably carry it hammer down condition 2, though. That is not my preferred system and not desirable to me. I'd pass on the sig for that reason alone. But, everyone has their preferences. Those are mine.

I want a concealed hammer revolver, too, sorta. But, I like the body guard style, shrouded hammer. I never have a problem with the hammer spur on the 85, though. I draw with my thumb against the hammer. That gun has the sweetest DA I've ever felt out of the box. Beats the heck out of the run of the mill J frame anyway, new one anyway.

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 04:18 PM
I prefer a long trigger pull in a pocket pistol and I shoot it well. To each his own on that.

I ride bikes a lot, don't carry a "car gun" when I'm in the car. What's on me is what I got. Mostly in summer I pocket carry. I'm retired, so i can wear what I want. I always could anyway having a technical job, not an office guy.

Now, my P11 gets the most carry, but I'm not one of those guys that thinks a .380, even a .22, will bounce off. I feel pretty confident in .380 and 9x18 to do the job, I just have been shooting this P11 for a long time and, well, 9x19+P does have the edge, plus the thing has more firepower. It's just a no brainer for me why I carry it and shoot it so much. I do like the DA, safe, long, very smooth with a slight stage to allow for excellent shot placement in slow fire. But, I've gotten used to it. It takes a few hundred rounds. It is an inherently safe trigger for pocket carry, but then I'm not saying the Kahr or the Ruger or the Sig isn't. If I carried the sig, I'd probably carry it hammer down condition 2, though. That is not my preferred system and not desirable to me. I'd pass on the sig for that reason alone. But, everyone has their preferences. Those are mine.

I want a concealed hammer revolver, too, sorta. But, I like the body guard style, shrouded hammer. I never have a problem with the hammer spur on the 85, though. I draw with my thumb against the hammer. That gun has the sweetest DA I've ever felt out of the box. Beats the heck out of the run of the mill J frame anyway, new one anyway.
You should like the Micro Desert Eagle. It has a long heavy trigger but I think better than the P11 trigger and the Micro though a little heavy is very small.

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 05:05 PM
Add on that the LCP is basically the single pistol that pushed the .380 craze, or at least the biggest player, and those numbers quickly become over inflated compared to the others in the class.

So you think the Ruger imitation of the P-3AT is what started the 380 craze!

My memory isn't as good as it used to be so to I rummaged through my file and found the exact production figures that were posted on the ATF website for the Kel-Tec P-3ATs from 2003 through 2005.

Kel-Tec sold 100,000 P-3AT pistols from it's first production in 2003 through 2005. Thats right one hundred thousand in about 2-1/2 years and productions was rapidly ramping up each year. Clearly Ruger jumped on the bandwagon with a P-3AT imitation after KT started, in your words "the 380 craze."

http://omploader.org/vNHFvZA/Screen%20shot%202010-06-24%20at%20Jun%2024,%202010%20%20%20%20%2010.39.42%20AM.gif

benzy2
June 24, 2010, 06:25 PM
Yes, Keltec did sell 91000 pistols in that 2.5 year stretch but when introduced in 2008 alone Ruger sold 83,000 in a partial sales year. We can argue over this if you want. I did say the LCP was "at least the biggest player" in the .380 craze, which as your link proves, is true. In 2008 that was by far the case selling roughly 35,000 more pistols in .380 than keltec. Sure the .380 was around far before that, but when the LCP came out .380 sales in across the board went from 138k to 279k, though Sig did bump their .380 sales substantially as well in 2008. Claim what you want. My point was that the LCP, since its introduction, has been the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in the year it was introduced .380 sales doubled. I call that being the biggest player in the .380 craze. You call it what you want.

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 07:07 PM
Yes, Keltec did sell 91000 pistols in that 2.5 year stretch but when introduced in 2008 alone Ruger sold 83,000 in a partial sales year. We can argue over this if you want. I did say the LCP was "at least the biggest player" in the .380 craze, which as your link proves, is true. In 2008 that was by far the case selling roughly 35,000 more pistols in .380 than keltec. Sure the .380 was around far before that, but when the LCP came out .380 sales in across the board went from 138k to 279k, though Sig did bump their .380 sales substantially as well in 2008. Claim what you want. My point was that the LCP, since its introduction, has been the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in the year it was introduced .380 sales doubled. I call that being the biggest player in the .380 craze. You call it what you want.
Ok so just ignore the fact that by 2005 almost a 100,000 P3ATs were sold by a small independent co and we don't even know how many more P3ATs were sold after 2005 and until Ruger realized, because of the P3AT success they needed to jump into the pond and finally they produced their imitation of the P3AT.

Clearly whether you like their pistols or not Kel-Tec started the ball rolling a few years before the Ruger imitation of the P3AT even came to market.

Of course everyone wanted a Seecamp but their production was so small and they are so pricey that at the time there wasn't a huge amount of interest in the Seecamp, but when Kel-Tec introduced a very light and thin 380 sales of their P3AT exploded. How can you possibly deny that fact?

If it were not for the P3AT succsess there would probably not even be an LCP or TCP or the other pocket 380s now on the market!

I think Seecamp probably deserves a lot of credit too because the Seecamp more than likely inspired KT to produce a 380 for the masses.

benzy2
June 24, 2010, 07:35 PM
Why is this even being discussed? I never said kel-tec wasn't out before Ruger and the the LCP isn't a huge copy of the P3AT. I never said Kel-tec didn't sell quite a few pistols before Ruger entered the market. My point was, and is, that when introduced, the LCP topped sales in the .380 market by a fair margin and that .380 sales across the board doubled. I'm not implying anything about Kel-tec or it's production capability. I'm not debating that they weren't selling 40k pistols a year in .380 before the LCP came out. Again, in 2008, the introduction of the LCP lead .380 sales and all .380 sales doubled. That is ALL I was saying. You continuously put words in my mouth I wasn't saying or implying. I never have stated the P3AT wasn't or isn't a success, that it isn't the spur that pushed Ruger into the .380 market, or anything to do with Seecamp and their production capabilities. Why are you getting defensive about this? I don't understand why this debate is even going on to be honest. The numbers up to 2008 are on the ATF website that you linked so we do know what Kel-tec sold. They are quite impressive numbers and they held the dominate position in the .380 market for a good run. Again, I'm not ignoring that nor discrediting it.

ALL I am trying to say is that the year the LCP entered the market it was the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in that year (2008) sales of .380 pistols doubled from just under 140k to just under 280k. Please don't take anything more from that statement than face value. Don't take that as a slam against Kel-tec, Seecamp, Sig, Taurus, etc. I'm not trashing any of those companies. I was trying to show that since introduced it has sold phenomenally well, leading the market in a time the market was booming. The original post you continue to quote was made in reference to a post stating that the Ruger had numerous links when googled regarding problems compared to the P238 and the TCP, nothing to do with Keltec. The response and point was that the LCP sold more than the rest in the years it has been produced. If you extrapolate the numbers out through 2009 and up to date, it would put Ruger covering the head start Kel-tec had, but that is all speculative.

I hope I am clear. You missed the entire point of that post your quoted. It was to point out that while some people can claim there are an extreme amount of links to Ruger LCPs with problems, they have outsold the TWO SPECIFIC PISTOLS being compared at that time, and that many of those problem links were in reference to the recall. Don't make it more than what it is.

MCgunner
June 24, 2010, 07:43 PM
George Kelgren was way ahead of his time with the baby .380s. I have a Grendel P12, itself a successor to the ill fated P10. It's not that great a gun, very rough DA trigger, flawless functioning, but not real accurate. I can hit a paper plate every shot rested from sand bags at 25, but the rough trigger is hard to overcome off hand. But, it was a predecessor to Kel Tec. It is 12 ounces, the same length and height as a LCP, but 1" wide due to an 11 round double stack magazine. It's a blow back gun. When Kelgren designed the locked breach P3AT, he could thin and lighten the slide and produce a REALLY compact little gun. The P11 came along first, the P12s natural successor, and MUCH better ergos on the trigger and smoother trigger action than it's P12 daddy. I never shoot that old Grendel, but I keep it. It's probably only got a couple thousand rounds through it and I've had it 20 years or near so. I know it's pre-Clinton magazine ban. Couldn't sell it for much and it functions fine. For a while, I was carrying it in a back pocket of a pair of Rustlers until I discovered carpenter's jeans and Wrangler Cargos. They have bigger front pockets.

Yeah, Ruger was a copy cat, but it's a nice gun, too. Virtually ALL the micro .380s came from Kelgren's designs. He was the innovator. I think he might have seen the CCW market coming before anyone else did. If Bill Ruger hadn't passed on, we might never seen the LCP, either. HE was NOT a friend of private gun owners and carriers.


You should like the Micro Desert Eagle. It has a long heavy trigger but I think better than the P11 trigger and the Micro though a little heavy is very small.

You know, I've looked that gun over, but never tried the trigger. Thanks for the heads up. It's a little pricey, but it's a tiny little thing.

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 08:39 PM
Why is this even being discussed? I never said kel-tec wasn't out before Ruger and the the LCP isn't a huge copy of the P3AT. I never said Kel-tec didn't sell quite a few pistols before Ruger entered the market. My point was, and is, that when introduced, the LCP topped sales in the .380 market by a fair margin and that .380 sales across the board doubled. I'm not implying anything about Kel-tec or it's production capability. I'm not debating that they weren't selling 40k pistols a year in .380 before the LCP came out. Again, in 2008, the introduction of the LCP lead .380 sales and all .380 sales doubled. That is ALL I was saying. You continuously put words in my mouth I wasn't saying or implying. I never have stated the P3AT wasn't or isn't a success, that it isn't the spur that pushed Ruger into the .380 market, or anything to do with Seecamp and their production capabilities. Why are you getting defensive about this? I don't understand why this debate is even going on to be honest. The numbers up to 2008 are on the ATF website that you linked so we do know what Kel-tec sold. They are quite impressive numbers and they held the dominate position in the .380 market for a good run. Again, I'm not ignoring that nor discrediting it.

ALL I am trying to say is that the year the LCP entered the market it was the best selling .380 by a fair margin and in that year (2008) sales of .380 pistols doubled from just under 140k to just under 280k. Please don't take anything more from that statement than face value. Don't take that as a slam against Kel-tec, Seecamp, Sig, Taurus, etc. I'm not trashing any of those companies. I was trying to show that since introduced it has sold phenomenally well, leading the market in a time the market was booming. The original post you continue to quote was made in reference to a post stating that the Ruger had numerous links when googled regarding problems compared to the P238 and the TCP, nothing to do with Keltec. The response and point was that the LCP sold more than the rest in the years it has been produced. If you extrapolate the numbers out through 2009 and up to date, it would put Ruger covering the head start Kel-tec had, but that is all speculative.

I hope I am clear. You missed the entire point of that post your quoted. It was to point out that while some people can claim there are an extreme amount of links to Ruger LCPs with problems, they have outsold the TWO SPECIFIC PISTOLS being compared at that time, and that many of those problem links were in reference to the recall. Don't make it more than what it is.
Simple! Because you said the LCP is responsible for the 380 craze and I'm simply supplying the facts to show that your wrong. Is that so difficult to understand!

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 08:53 PM
George Kelgren was way ahead of his time with the baby .380s. I have a Grendel P12, itself a successor to the ill fated P10. It's not that great a gun, very rough DA trigger, flawless functioning, but not real accurate. I can hit a paper plate every shot rested from sand bags at 25, but the rough trigger is hard to overcome off hand. But, it was a predecessor to Kel Tec. It is 12 ounces, the same length and height as a LCP, but 1" wide due to an 11 round double stack magazine. It's a blow back gun. When Kelgren designed the locked breach P3AT, he could thin and lighten the slide and produce a REALLY compact little gun. The P11 came along first, the P12s natural successor, and MUCH better ergos on the trigger and smoother trigger action than it's P12 daddy. I never shoot that old Grendel, but I keep it. It's probably only got a couple thousand rounds through it and I've had it 20 years or near so. I know it's pre-Clinton magazine ban. Couldn't sell it for much and it functions fine. For a while, I was carrying it in a back pocket of a pair of Rustlers until I discovered carpenter's jeans and Wrangler Cargos. They have bigger front pockets.

Yeah, Ruger was a copy cat, but it's a nice gun, too. Virtually ALL the micro .380s came from Kelgren's designs. He was the innovator. I think he might have seen the CCW market coming before anyone else did. If Bill Ruger hadn't passed on, we might never seen the LCP, either. HE was NOT a friend of private gun owners and carriers.



You know, I've looked that gun over, but never tried the trigger. Thanks for the heads up. It's a little pricey, but it's a tiny little thing.

I have no problem with Ruger copying the KT after all imitation is the highest form of flattery and competition is good for the consumer. I might have even purchased an LCP if I had liked the trigger more but that's just me.

I have a Ruger SR9 and a 22/45 and like Ruger products plus I live just 90 minutes from the Ruger factory.

You should try and shoot a Micro Eagle before thinking about getting one because it's a blowback and has pretty stiff recoil but nothing that should be a problem when you need it and mine has been utterly reliable with every kind of ammo I've tried.

kokapelli
June 24, 2010, 09:00 PM
Shooting my TPC today I discovered that like the P-3AT and the LCP, the TPC does indeed put smilies in the bullet of the next round in the magazine.

That's the bad news! The good news is unlike the P-3AT/LCP the smilies are so shallow as to be hardly noticeable.

benzy2
June 25, 2010, 02:25 AM
Simple! Because you said the LCP is responsible for the 380 craze and I'm simply supplying the facts to show that your wrong. Is that so difficult to understand!
I guess it all depends on your idea of the .380 craze and the start of it. I would put it in 2008 when .380 sales doubled from 140k to 280k. If you define it as a different time then there would be different causes. In the timeframe I am referring to the LCP was the biggest player and arguably the biggest push, which my post originally claimed. I'm talking about this timeframe. In that timeframe the posts I have made have been correct, regardless of previous sales and pushes. If you want to call the .380 craze 2003-2005 then my point is invalid, but I was referring to the last couple years.

I went back and looked at the sales of .380 pistols since 1998.

1998 = 100k
1999 = 80k
2000 = 110k
2001 = 40k
2002 = 60k
2003 = 80k
2004 = 70k
2005 = 110k
2006 = 130k
2007 = 140k
2008 = 280k

While many of those years show a great increase in pistols produced, the jump in 2008 is by far, at least to me, the ".380 craze", not something prior. Sure there was demand, but what in those numbers looks like the craze to you? So look at 2008, and who made the most pistols by a fair margin, and tell me that the LCP wasn't the biggest player in the 2008 .380 craze, which is exactly what my original point was.

kokapelli
June 25, 2010, 10:50 AM
I guess it all depends on your idea of the .380 craze and the start of it. I would put it in 2008 when .380 sales doubled from 140k to 280k. If you define it as a different time then there would be different causes. In the timeframe I am referring to the LCP was the biggest player and arguably the biggest push, which my post originally claimed. I'm talking about this timeframe. In that timeframe the posts I have made have been correct, regardless of previous sales and pushes. If you want to call the .380 craze 2003-2005 then my point is invalid, but I was referring to the last couple years.
What a bunch of gobble de gook! What is this, another what the meaning of "is" is?

Now your using "time frames!" You keep switching the argument.

The demand was there because of the P-3AT and Ruger just used good business sense and jumped in.

The P-3AT configuration was so popular that every board had posts about how people wished one of the bigger and more well known gun makers would produce a pistol like the P-3AT.

It's about who started it and it sure wasn't Ruger. Ruger was a Johnny Come Lately and jumped in after the P-3AT wave had already started.

KT sold almost 100,000 P-3ATs in just 2-1/2 years! I suppose that was just a blip to you because you own a Ruger! KT was running at it's maximum possible production and was constantly increasing it production capability in order to keep up with the demand.

Is it impossible for you admit that the start of the small, thin and light 380 pocket pistol exploded with the introduction of the P-3AT?

Oh I know how so many people on these boards think and if it's not the pistol they have it just can't be as good as theirs!

You just can't give credit where credit is due can you!

Yes Ruger with it's much larger production facility took it much farther than KT was capable of doing but the explosion clearly started with the P-3AT.

Sorry but in this case your wrong!

MCgunner
June 25, 2010, 11:36 AM
I kinda thought the latest (not including the James Bond inspired) .380 "craze" was spawned by the advent of shall issue CCW laws, not a particular gun. Kel Tec was there and ready to pounce when it happened. They were the first with a true pocket 9 and then they brought along the P3AT. When I bought my P11 in 96, it had the Kahr K9 and the Glock 26 as competition. The Pocket 9 thing has exploded, too, right along with the .380 thing and it's all because of CCW laws IMHO. There wouldn't otherwise be a big market.

kokapelli
June 25, 2010, 01:10 PM
I kinda thought the latest (not including the James Bond inspired) .380 "craze" was spawned by the advent of shall issue CCW laws, not a particular gun. Kel Tec was there and ready to pounce when it happened. They were the first with a true pocket 9 and then they brought along the P3AT. When I bought my P11 in 96, it had the Kahr K9 and the Glock 26 as competition. The Pocket 9 thing has exploded, too, right along with the .380 thing and it's all because of CCW laws IMHO. There wouldn't otherwise be a big market.

The James bond guns are a different catagory and not as pocketable as the P-3AT/LCP etc sized guns.

The more I think about it I think the desire for the micro pocket sized 380s has been there for a long time and probably really came about with the Seecamp 32cal pistol but it was too expensive for many and even if you could afford it the wait sometimes years was just too much for most people but when the p-32/P-3ATs arrived on scene we had pocketable pistols that everyone could afford and we didn't have to wait for years to get one and that is when the rush/wave really started.

gofastman
June 25, 2010, 01:33 PM
Children, lets get back on topic.

I like the way th TCP feels in my hand, It has a better trigger too. I didn't care for how the LCP felt when I shot it, I would buy the TCP if I were to pick up a pocket .380

stchman
June 25, 2010, 03:11 PM
To kokapelli:

I did not knock the Sig P238. It just amazes me that the thread is entitled LCP or TCP and the Sig fanboys want to come chiming in.

As far as being 3-4 times better if you think so then it must be true. As far as having a SAO CCW pistol I think it is not a good idea. Under stressful situations your motor skills will decrease dramatically. The action of taking the gun from holster/pocket and then having to flip the safety is not a a good thing when you are fearing for your life.

I know all the people say "I can do it". Truth is nearly all of us have not been confronted by a mugger/burglar/rapist/etc. with a gun or knife and we have to protect our lives. I guarantee that at the very least I would be VERY stressed and have adrenaline flowing.

I want a pistol that all I have to do is pull the trigger. I don't want to have to fumble around with a safety as my motor skills will probably be somewhat impaired.

If the Sig is to your liking then fine.

stchman
June 25, 2010, 03:14 PM
I had a P11 and ended up selling it. The one I had had difficulty and had FTEs too much. Not to mention that it was a chore to fire the thing. A 9mm in a 14oz package really kicks hard.

The LCP kicks pretty hard, but not as bad as the P11.

Also I felt the workmanship and fit/finish was not what it should be.

I ended up selling the gun.

harmon rabb
June 25, 2010, 03:19 PM
A 9mm in a 14oz package really kicks hard

believe it or not, my taurus 709 slim (18.5oz) soaks up recoil like a full size. supposedly the TCP soaks up recoil better than the LCP. something in the taurus designs really helps, apparently.

my pf-9 and 709 are like night and day when shot back to back.

kokapelli
June 25, 2010, 04:13 PM
believe it or not, my taurus 709 slim (18.5oz) soaks up recoil like a full size. supposedly the TCP soaks up recoil better than the LCP. something in the taurus designs really helps, apparently.

my pf-9 and 709 are like night and day when shot back to back.
I have a TCP and yes it does have less felt recoil and and a better trigger than the LCP.

MCgunner
June 25, 2010, 08:45 PM
My 14 ounce P11 I have no problem at all with recoil OR the trigger. I bought a Polish P64 in 9x18 and everyone said it kicked. I poo fawed thinkin' just how bad could 19 ounce 9x18 be compared to a full power +P 14 ounce 9 which doesn't bother me? Well, I gotta tell ya, I ate some crow on that one. I had to wear a shooting glove with that little fart to make it through 50 rounds. I added a 22 lb recoil spring on advice from the guys on this board and a set of Marschal grips and I don't use the shooting glove anymore. Ergos and such seem to have a lot to do with felt recoil. That little P11 I've got in my pocket right now just fits me perfectly. Now, I point that P64 well, but the way the back of the grip was shaped, the web of my hand absorbed the whole impact. It kinda hurt after a while. The spring softened the blow and the grips have a palm swell that redistributes the blow to help the palm absorb some of it.

I've not fired either the LCP OR the TCP. I can't say how they'd be to shoot. But, considering the diminutive size of the grip and the under 10 ounce weight, I'd think they COULD be worse than one of the compact 9s. The P11 helps in that the grip is wider, too, and I have a finger groove sleeve on it. I have a finger extension on my spare mag, but carry it with the flat plate mag in my pocket and usually shoot at the range with that mag.

kokapelli
June 25, 2010, 09:05 PM
My 14 ounce P11 I have no problem at all with recoil OR the trigger. I bought a Polish P64 in 9x18 and everyone said it kicked. I poo fawed thinkin' just how bad could 19 ounce 9x18 be compared to a full power +P 14 ounce 9 which doesn't bother me? Well, I gotta tell ya, I ate some crow on that one. I had to wear a shooting glove with that little fart to make it through 50 rounds. I added a 22 lb recoil spring on advice from the guys on this board and a set of Marschal grips and I don't use the shooting glove anymore. Ergos and such seem to have a lot to do with felt recoil. That little P11 I've got in my pocket right now just fits me perfectly. Now, I point that P64 well, but the way the back of the grip was shaped, the web of my hand absorbed the whole impact. It kinda hurt after a while. The spring softened the blow and the grips have a palm swell that redistributes the blow to help the palm absorb some of it.

I've not fired either the LCP OR the TCP. I can't say how they'd be to shoot. But, considering the diminutive size of the grip and the under 10 ounce weight, I'd think they COULD be worse than one of the compact 9s. The P11 helps in that the grip is wider, too, and I have a finger groove sleeve on it. I have a finger extension on my spare mag, but carry it with the flat plate mag in my pocket and usually shoot at the range with that mag.
The LCP and TCP are not nearly as bad because like your P11 they have a locked breech action that absorbs some of the recoil While the P64 is a blowback action that produces a lot more felt recoil.

I don't have a problem with any of the 380 minis when it comes to recoil.

IMO the TCP has a little less felt recoil than the LCP.

MCgunner
June 25, 2010, 09:19 PM
Well, none of 'em match a .45-70 in a Contender for recoil, so none of 'em really bother me. :D Guys that complain about 9s and .380s tickle me. I will say, though, that one shot out of that .45-70 ain't much worse than one shot out of a 12 ounce J frame .357 magnum with a full house 180 grain buffalo bore equivalent handload. I've done that before just for the experience, not my gun, think I'll take a pass. :D I never bought the .45-70, either. My buddy's convinced me it was overkill for deer and hogs and for the shooter so I got a .30-30 barrel. :D There's another gun who's grip shape bothers me with hot loads. The .30-30 is a compensated barrel, isn't bad on the hand, rough on the ears if you forget your muffs. But, my hot .45 Colt loads in it are painful with the .45 barrel. In my Ruger Blackhawk they're not bad at all, another demonstration of how grip shape can matter with recoil. The TC is much heavier with a scope on it than the Blackhawk, but much more painful to shoot with the same load.

Steve 48
July 30, 2010, 06:07 PM
I had the Ruger LCP, the Taurus TCP and the P3AT and the TCP shoots better, more accurate and reliable for me. The lite hits on the primer can be fixed by Taurus and its a 2 week turn around and no cost to you. There's no question about which one I carry. Of course, the Sigarms and Walther are high end guns and are better pistols but who wants to carry a summer gun in your pocket and pay $500 or more for a 380. The TCP works for me and on a man size target, I can put 50 rounds into the head at 10 yards. No question about a gun that will get worn and ugly from carry but shoots like that.

akadave
July 30, 2010, 06:16 PM
The thing I really dislike about my LCP is that its not +p rated. That puts a big limitation on the effectiveness of an already anemic round. Im guessing the TCP is +p rated?

kokapelli
July 30, 2010, 06:40 PM
The thing I really dislike about my LCP is that its not +p rated. That puts a big limitation on the effectiveness of an already anemic round. Im guessing the TCP is +p rated?
No the TCP is not rated for +P.

PX15
July 30, 2010, 06:45 PM
Guys, guys, guys...

There are KelTec folks, there are Ruger folks, there are Sig folks, there are Tauri folks, there are Seecamp folks, there are MicroDesertEagle folks, there are Smith & Wesson folks, there are Kahr folks, and there are even Rohrbaugh folks, there are probably even OTHER brands of 380's hitting the market (seemingly on a daily basis) I haven't even heard about yet, all who love and cherish their own brand and often have nothing but negatives to say about the other brands, whether they have actually fired that brands 380cal. pistol or not.

I'm old, and my take on the whole shebang is that I'm just glad there are so many offerings on the market in a small and concealable pistol of 380 caliber.

Heck my first cc pistol was a 25cal Galesi, bought new in Dublin, Ga in the summer of 1966 for $35.00.. Not sure if that price included sales tax or not.

My thinking is that just as we all like to drive different vehicles, (altho my favorite brands are running kinda thin these days, thanks to the demise of Oldsmobile and Pontiac) we like different things in a firearm also.

I believe if WHATEVER brand of pistol/revolver you have that WORKS for you, is the perfect pistol for you..

I have Seecamps, I have LCP's.. Love 'em all...

But I have absolutely no heartburn knowing a majority of you would chose another brand when you went gun shopping.

We are all "gun nuts", (or at least considered "gun nut's" by the anti's) so lets just agree to disagree, pleasantly, and quit the bickering.

I say buy what'chu want, and carry whut'chu bought.. Practice is always a good thing, and imo (my humble opinion) IF a quality laser is made for the sucker, consider it..

No offense to anyone, altho if you were offended by my comments, I don't care. I'm old, have short term memory loss, and while I worry about my enlarged prostate, I don't worry about who likes or dislikes a particular response I might make on a darn gun forum. :barf:

Best Wishes,

jesse

P.S. I will say I think we need more folks producing AMMO for our mouseguns than more mousegun manufacturers.. 380 is still kinda hard to find in my little redneck part of the woods.

harmon rabb
July 31, 2010, 09:13 AM
The thing I really dislike about my LCP is that its not +p rated. That puts a big limitation on the effectiveness of an already anemic round. Im guessing the TCP is +p rated?

There is no SAAMI spec for .380+p, so no .380 can actually be +p "rated" ;) That said, I've run all kinds of +p **** through my LCP without issue.

7.62mm.ak47
July 31, 2010, 12:12 PM
Have you tried out Para's new PCP lol? I hear it makes you feel pretty confident.

valorius
July 31, 2010, 12:42 PM
+P is merely a marketing term in .380, it is not a technical term. Your .380 will fire any .380 ammo on the market that falls within SAAMI guidelines for .380 ACP.

I shoot "+P" rounds out of my LCP on occasion, and carry it with Corbon DPX+P, it shoots them just fine.

rhoggman
July 31, 2010, 08:44 PM
There is no SAAMI spec for .380+p, so no .380 can actually be +p "rated" That said, I've run all kinds of +p **** through my LCP without issue.

That is what I thought.

I seriously doubt a few buffalo bore are gonna hurt anything; however, probably not a good idea to use as range ammo either. Kinda like drinking raw deer blood from a goblet, or pirating a merchant vessel on the high seas... it is great fun and and all, but I don't do it every day.

PT1911
July 31, 2010, 08:51 PM
IMO... the TCP is the nicest of the bunch.. feels better in the hand, has less felt recoil, has a better trigger, and a functional slide stop... If/when i buy another pocket 380, i will go with the TCP.

kokapelli
July 31, 2010, 08:57 PM
That is what I thought.

I seriously doubt a few buffalo bore are gonna hurt anything; however, probably not a good idea to use as range ammo either. Kinda like drinking raw deer blood from a goblet, or pirating a merchant vessel on the high seas... it is great fun and and all, but I don't do it every day.
I carry Buffalo Bore in my Micro Eagle but when I run out I'm not going to get anymore because I've decided to use fmj as my 380 carry ammo and most fmj 380 ammo will give plenty of penetration.

BB has noticeably more felt recoil which means more battering in these tiny guns and unless stronger recoil springs are available for your specific gun continued use of these higher pressure rounds is going to take it's toll on your gun and your wallet.

rhoggman
July 31, 2010, 09:07 PM
I am going to start reloading .380 and plan on trying to find some SJLNFP or JFP. I too am not convinced the HP is the way to go in .380.

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