[RSVP2RIP]

What would be the maximum OAL for a 38 Waddcutter used in the Colt Mk III Gold Cup National Match? Do I have to use HBWC or can I get away with a BBWC and crimp in the groove? Can't I just crimp a BBWC into the case completly or do I have to use the groove? I'm looking at the RCBS 148gr BBWC as it would only require a new mould and not a new top punch for me. Or are the 38 NM's so fickle that I got to try a bunch of stuff to see if it works first?

[Jim Watson]

I THINK you can crimp a bevel base wadcutter in the groove with the band showing and it work in a Colt .38. Ken Waters' Pet Loads says in the text that he did so with the RCBS mould but the table says all bullets were seated flush. They will work either way. So you can try it for yourself.

(A S&W M52 has to have them flush, but it is built on a 9mm frame and not a .45 length action.)

[loadedround]

Having shot Bullseye competiton a few years ago using a S&W Model 52 Master in 38 special, similar pistol to your Colt Gold Cup, I can give you some insight in loading 148 gr HBWC bullets. For your pistol to function perfectly, the bullet must be seated flush with the case mouth. Normally crimping is unnecessary, but I found giving the case just a "kiss of crimp" to remove any remaining case belling made much better fuctioning ammo. Our standard load in either the Gold Cup or the S&W Master was 2.7 gr of Bullsye and any standard LP primer, with the bullet seated flush in the case . Hope this information will help you out.

[RSVP2RIP]

I guess the main problem is I want to cast bullets for it and I havent found anything to cast HBWC bullets. Lots of DE and BB but no HB. The only Double End Wadcutters I've found were from Saeco, all the rest have some kind of projection on the front.

[Jim Watson]

Sorry, I thought you already had the mould.

I would buy some bullets and try them out.
Dardas has what they call a Hensley & Gibbs design with crimp groove and button nose.
http://www.dardascastbullet.site.aplus.net/cgi-bin/mivavm?/mm5/merchant.mvc+Screen=PROD&Store_Code=dardas&Product_Code=38148HGWCBB100&Category_Code=38WC
You could seat them to the crimp groove or load them upside down and flush to see which your gun required.
SAECO makes both a double ended mould that would seat flush and one for a crimp groove wadcutter similar to the old H&G #50.

There used to be a hollowbase version of the Lyman 358395 wadcutter mould but most casters did not want to go to the trouble and used the regular moulds for solid bullet from Lyman or H&G.

[loadedround]

RSVP: I have been shooting and reloading for over 40 years, and an old timer once told me back in my bullseye shooting days that most mold manufacturer's did not make a a hollow based wad cutter mold because of the difficulty of getting the bullet out of the mold. For some reason it would not drop free. I do vaguely remember a mold where a metal rod was inserted into the mold's base to form a hollow base(or was it a rod to form a hollow point?). I doubt if you will find any type of HB mold these days. The aforementioned projection on the face of commercial bullets will have no effect on shooting these bullets. Hope this information is helpful to you.

[RSVP2RIP]

The aforementioned projection on the face of commercial bullets will have no effect on shooting these bullets.

Then the "nose" must not ever touch the feed ramp? I'm hoping that if it can fit in the magazine it will feed. I did order the RCBS mold 38-148-WC and if I can't get it to work, I'll go with something else. I can always use them for other guns.

[dardascastbullets]

Merry Christmas to all!

Our set of Hensley & Gibbs #50 moulds were indeed cut with the the Hensley & Gibbs cherry. So rest assured when you order the #50 from us it is truly the #50!

[Offfhand]

Mr. Loadedround says he has been loaded for 40 years, which makes him something of a newcomer to people with real experience. However, in his short while he seems to have learned a few of the basics. What he says about seating wadcutters flush is correct. The S&W M-52 and Colts were designed with assumption that all .38's would be loaded with wadcutters flush mounted. So why is there even a question?

[RSVP2RIP]

The S&W M-52 and Colts were designed with assumption that all .38's would be loaded with wadcutters flush mounted. So why is there even a question?

Because I wasn't on the design team.

And because, apparently, I don't have enough experience as I've only been handloading for 10 years.

I just wanted to know if you could seat them a little proud of flush and use the crimp groove was all.

[fecmech]

Why not load 10 and try it. In the case of the bullseye pistols most were made to function with factory wadcutters which are flush loaded ( and in this case probably correct) but you never know till you try something. There is a tremendous amount of BS in shooting and reloading, I've learned a lot trying things on my own.

[rcmodel]

Your gun may be a law unto itself, but if it is like all other S&W Model 52 and Colt 1911 .38 Spl. autoloader match guns?

You can't get anything longer then flush-seated wadcutters in the magazine, or get them to feed.

Back in the day, when folks like me were shooting them in NRA Bullseye competation, there were actually two mid-range match wadcutter loads put out by the factorys.

One was flush seated & slightly roll crimped over the bullet for use in Model 52's and Colts.

The other was seated out about 1/8" and slightly roll-crimped in the bullet crimp groove for use in K-38 & Colt revolvers.

The longer OAL got the bullet centered in the revolver chamber throat and susposedly made for better accuracy over flush-seated self-stuffer loads.

rc

[loadedround]

Two comments:
1. Offhand, thank you for your comment. I've actually been shooting and reloading for over 46 years now, and am proud to have taught at least twenty friends to reload and am especially proud to have taught both my sons also.
2. Rcmodel, I have never doubted any comment you have ever made and do believe you have forgotten more about about shooting and reloading than I wil ever know. Having said that, around what time(year) did the factories produce 38 WC ammo seated out to the first crimping groove? We reloaded ammo that way for the OM's and K38's in the old days, but I only remember factory WC ammo flush seated when I stated NRA Bullsye Shooting while stationed at the Presidio of San Francisco in 1963. Happy Holidays to you and your family also. :)

[rcmodel]

We had it in the late 60's with the Army AMU teams I shot with.

I can't remember who made what though.

It was either Remington loaded long and Winchester loaded short, or the other way around.

Memory fails me now on which one was what.
I just know they did, and we had both available to us depending on whether we shot auto's or revolvers in center-fire matches.

Myself, I shot a .45 wad gun in center-fire, but a lot of guys were still using .38's at that point in time.

rc

[Sunray]

"...cast HBWC bullets..." They're usually swaged. Swaged bullets shoot better than cast. I think Lyman sells swaging machines. Haven't a clue where you'd get the soft lead 'wire' though. Never looked myself.

[RSVP2RIP]

Why not load 10 and try it.


Because I was trying to use the information gathered here to purchase the mold for the bullets.

When I put an empty case in the magazine there looks like there is over an 1/8" of clearance.

RC - Did you actually try one of the WC seated beyond flush in a Colt? I hear they have longer magazines than the 52's.

[rfwobbly]

We had it in the late 60's with the Army AMU teams I shot with.

RC shot with the AMU in the 60's ???? :eek:

"Holy longevity, Batman !!"


I was still wearing diapers and shooting ROTC 3P matches. :D

[RSVP2RIP]

You can't get anything longer then flush-seated wadcutters in the magazine, or get them to feed.



Sorry to ressurect this thread, but soley for the search feature, it is possible to get a BBWC (RCBS 38-148-WC) seated to 1.295" to feed and function, in the magazine, out of a Colt National Match 38 Midrange.

There is a tremendous amount of BS in shooting and reloading, I've learned a lot trying things on my own.

How true.

[Maj Dad]

At Bragg & the 18th Abn Corps in 73 the Winnie rounds were the shorter flush loads. I loaded Zero wc's over 2.7 gr BE in a Jim Clark Colt conversion 38 - a Rolls-Royce at $600 in real money back then for an E6, then civilian in Manchester (Woodland) GA at the Flint River Gun Club. rc is right - can't load them longer in the Colt clip (maybe a mm or so, but not 1/8"). I still have some of those rounds - round nose 158 gr "Super Match" and 148 gr WCs. talk about hoarding... :rolleyes: