[Monkeyleg]

At 1:30 this afternoon the Wisconsin state senate approved the assembly amendments to SB214, the Personal Protection Act. The bill was delivered to Governor Doyle's desk later in the afternoon. He now has until next week Tuesday to veto the bill, which he has promised to do.

We're now in the last stages of a battle that began in 1993. Once Doyle vetoes the bill, override sessions will be scheduled very quickly.

Please continue to call and write your legislators. Time is of the essence. To find out who your legislators are, go to http://www.legis.state.wi.us/waml and enter your address and town. Your friends without internet access can call 1-800-362-9472 between 9am and 5pm to reach their legislators' offices.

[Standing Wolf]

Well done, Wisconsin!

I'd say you need to fire your governor.

[xenophon]

I second that. Override or bust. If he signs that bill into law, I'd be very surprised, as I'm already prepared for the worst. Hopefully our democrats will stay on our side, or picking up a few more would be even better.

x

[cracked butt]

problem is, county boards are already making moves to prepare to not issue permits by the urgings of the sheriffs. I live in what is probably the most conservative county in the state, and the county sheriff is already calling upon the board to be ready to vote down the issuance of permits:cuss:

[xenophon]

problem is, county boards are already making moves to prepare to not issue permits by the urgings of the sheriffs. I live in what is probably the most conservative county in the state, and the county sheriff is already calling upon the board to be ready to vote down the issuance of permits

That's ok, there will be some counties who don't opt out and we'll just go there. Sure it might be a little driving, but at least we would have it. Then I would send them nice little notes telling them I'm carrying concealed and walking around the streets of their town. And when the other counties are reaping the benefits of the extra income, maybe they'll change their mind. Their loss not mine.

x

[Gray Peterson]

That's ok, there will be some counties who don't opt out and we'll just go there. Sure it might be a little driving, but at least we would have it. Then I would send them nice little notes telling them I'm carrying concealed and walking around the streets of their town. And when the other counties are reaping the benefits of the extra income, maybe they'll change their mind. Their loss not mine.

And what if one cannot afford to pay for the gas, the transit, and such out to some outlying county? Eventually if enough county boards opt out, it's going to create a serious problem with equal protection.

[CommonSense]

Lonnie: Everyone knew the Bill was a compromise. The Bill was meant to make as many people happy as possible and still pass. Yes, the Bill did allow local government to be involved.

I see you’re from Oregon. If you can afford a bus trip here, I suggest you book your trip in to a county that accepts registration before you’re moving here. That should lessen the expense at least somewhat.

[xenophon]

And what if one cannot afford to pay for the gas, the transit, and such out to some outlying county? Eventually if enough county boards opt out, it's going to create a serious problem with equal protection.
Man, if you can afford $113 (or is it $114??) you should be able to afford some gas money. Same goes for the cost of the training, a lot of us will probably have to travel for the training requirements also. I rather travel and get my CCW permit than have no permit system at all, but I do agree the option to opt out sux.

x

[cracked butt]

The other side of the story is that if enough counties opt out, the counties that are left will be swamped with paperwork from residents of counties that have opted out, and may decide its not worth their time, effort, and resources to keep issuing permits.

I read an article in the sentinel urinal yesterday about how in somewhere around 65 counties there is pressure from the Sheriff's departments to opt out.

[CommonSense]

That’s correct, “cracked butt.” However, all of the local officials are elected. Contact your sheriff and county board members if you’re concerned about the area you live in.

[ninenot]

Waukesha won't opt out. In fact, there's an interesting opportunity here for someone to sub-contract the processing for $50.00/applicant (leaving $25.00 for the Sheriff.) Figure 10 completed apps/day on average, and that's a neat $2500/week income.

Maybe I'll call the Sheriff and "volunteer."

[AZRickD]

"the county sheriff is already calling upon the board to be ready to vote down the issuance of permits"

Sounds like a good excuse to visit the Sheriff and tell him what kind of nasty political activism awaits him should he attempt something so stupid.

As for travel costs and equal protection, the very thought of paying fees for laminated cards, background checks, fingerprints and training is way beyond the issue of traveling to another county.

Rick

[xenophon]

AZrickd is right. And if SB214 gets vetoed doesn't become law, it's going to be open carry marches up the wazoo. DOWNTOWN MILWAUKEE. DOWNTOWN MADISON. If it's a big city, you're gonna see us out in droves.

Edit: SB214 not 213 ;)

x

[AZRickD]

Open Carry Marches??!!?? :D

Well, as you may know, Ohio gunnie activists are doing that very same thing right now for most of the last eight Sundays in a row. Tomorrow they will march on the Capitol in Columbus with the "blessing" of Columbus PD.

If I were you, when and if the time comes, I would got to the Ohioans for Concealed Carry web site http://www.ofcc.net and get on their listserve and ask them how they planned for them.

They have been getting 50 to 150 marchers each time. Big turnouts. And now folks are carrying openly outside of the marches. The gunnies are taking the bull by the horns and dictating policy after the Ohio Supreme Court ruled that a ban on concealed carry is okay since open carry is legal. A very few cities (Toledo, Youngstown) are pointing to their own ordinances which ban carry, but my guess is that the Court has lain that moot. Anyway, they already had a march in Youngstown. The Chief said that if they did that again he would arrest people. Make their day.

Rick

[CommonSense]

xenophon: It’s SB214. And that would do wonders to help the cause. I’m guessing if a stunt like that happened in Dane or Milwaukee County, you could rule out CCW for the next 20 years.

[xenophon]

xenophon: It’s SB214. And that would do wonders to help the cause. I’m guessing if a stunt like that happened in Dane or Milwaukee County, you could rule out CCW for the next 20 years.
keyboard typo, doh. Anyways, I don't see why that would rule out CCW for the next 20 years. hell, if it doesn't pass now, we probably won't try again until Doyle is gone, hopefully in around 2007. So why not do what Ohio is doing if our CCW doesn't go through? What, they rather untrained/licensed citizens walking around with openly displayed weapons, or would they prefer licensed/trained concealed carry. I know they probably prefer neither ;) but we're going to fight tooth and nail for this.

x

[CommonSense]

xenophon: I don’t know what to tell you. If you think you can ram your wishes down a community that doesn't agree with you, you’re in for a big surprise. Think about what laws they could pass to stop you in your tracks – including checking your weapons at a county line.

You might try want to help try fixing the concerns, rather than stomping your feet and holding your breathe. Most adults don’t take well that approach.

[Monkeyleg]

For crying out loud, if the only source I had for news on the WI CCW effort was THR, I'd be lying in my bed and weeping. Which seems to be what a few here are doing.

The bill allows a sheriff to go before the county board and request to "opt out," and requires a two-thirds majority vote to approve the opt-out. Problem is, the bill says that the sheriff can't do that until [i]four months[i/] after the bill is passed. Four months. It hasn't even passed yet, and the nay-sayers are in charge.

>>cracked butt: "The other side of the story is that if enough counties opt out, the counties that are left will be swamped with paperwork from residents of counties that have opted out, and may decide its not worth their time, effort, and resources to keep issuing permits.

I read an article in the sentinel urinal yesterday about how in somewhere around 65 counties there is pressure from the Sheriff's departments to opt out."<<

Swamped with paperwork? I'd give some mighty prized body parts in exchange for a piece of this action. The estimated time to complete the background check, application, "beauty photo," and other requirements is between 15 and thirty minutes. The sheriff's department receives $75 for this service. On top of that amount, the department receives another $15 for a range improvement fee, to defray the cost of training deputies. On top of that, the county gets $15, just for being there, I guess.

Let's do some math. The $75 fee is gross profit for fifteen to twenty minutes of work time conducted by a clerk who makes perhaps $15 an hour. If the clerk does his/her job, the department gets another $15 (the law enforcement excellence fund). And the county yet another $15 (range improvement).

The Department of Justice is estimating 35,000 permit applications in the first year. Let's say that 71 of the 72 sheriffs here "just say no" to concealed carry. Well, gee, that means that one sheriff's department is going to rake in $3.15 million dollars in the first year.

Can you say "leather seats" for Jaguar squad cars? Can you say DVD players, state-of-the-art range facilities, not to mention a benefits/pension fund that would beat any department, anywhere? Can you imagine the deputies from other counties who would flock to that county to get a first-class job?

In other words, can you envision some "opt-out" sheriff having to eat a bit of crow to keep his deputies--and no small amount of money--back in his jurisdiction?

It is the job of the Journal Sentinel to demoralize gunowners. It's their job to make us all think that we cannot win.

It's my job--and the job of every WCCA volunteer-- to let everyone know that we are within one or two votes of making this happen, and to tell every gunowner we can reach that we are as close to wining this battle as we've ever been. We can win, and the Journal Sentinel editorial writers know it.

So, you can sit back in your chair and believe the Journal Sentinel. Or you can believe what we know to be true, pick up your phone and make a difference.

[CommonSense]

Monkeyleg: You didn’t mention me. I feel left out. :(

[Strings]

... but he missed one thing.

Common Sense: no county/locality could possibily pass any such ordinance in the wake of a rash of open carrying individuals: we here in Wisconsin have a preemption law, which states (basically) that no county or locality can have a more restrictive law than the state. Which makes things fun for full-auto... >:)

Now granted, if a bunch of us started open carrying (which is, technically, legal), and some sheeple called the po-po, we would be arrested for "disturbing the peace", or some such nonsense. And I've had one county mountie say point blank that, if she sees a weapon on someone, that person is getting proned out. So... you pays your money, you takes your chances...

[Monkeyleg]

CommonSense, are you even from Wisconsin? Excuse me for asking, but our pre-emption leglisation prohibits any municipality from enacting a gun ordinance more stringent than the state-level laws. No county can prohibit concealed carry if this bill is passed.

Would everyone please stop "dissing" this bill right now? Let's get it passed, then address the minor complaints. You don't like the restaurant prohibitation? Fine. That's minor. Don't like the sporting event prohibition? Fine. That's minor, too.

What is not minor is getting a concealed carry bill passed. For this state, passage is a major triumph.

Try getting a bill passed that allows concealed carry only in restaurants, and nowhere else. Or a bill that allows concealed carry only at sports events, and nowhere else. Go ahead and lobby for a bill that only allows the govenor to carry concealed; that I can assure you will get passed (if you donate $750,000 to his re-election campaign).

For Christ's sake, we are within 90% of getting what we've wanted, and within a couple of votes of overriding a governor who's devoted his life to harassing gunowners. Go back and take a look at what Doyle as Attorney General proposed: bans on handguns, "assault weapons," small handguns, large handguns, shotguns, registration, licensing--he's a bald version of Chuck Schumer. And somebody here wants to give him what he wants?

Right now, you're either with us, or against us. It's too late to try to change what's going to happen. But it's not too late for everyone to get this bill passed, and prepare to fine-tune it next year.

If you or another gunowner does nothing--and we miss by a vote or two--will you be honest and tell your friends at the range that you didn't bother? Will you be honest enough to say that your apathy kept you from picking up the phone and saying, "I want Representative X to support concealed carry?"

Or do you have the strength of the convictions that you type here on the internet, and the two minutes it takes to make a phone call?

Are you a keyboard commander, or a real-life citizen?

[Gray Peterson]

CommonSense, are you even from Wisconsin? Excuse me for asking, but our pre-emption leglisation prohibits any municipality from enacting a gun ordinance more stringent than the state-level laws. No county can prohibit concealed carry if this bill is passed.

He means open carry ala Ohio.

[Gray Peterson]

Right now, you're either with us, or against us. It's too late to try to change what's going to happen. But it's not too late for everyone to get this bill passed, and prepare to fine-tune it next year.

Good. Monkeyleg, I want to apoligize for saying the bill sucked. It's in no way your fault, but the political realities in the area forced Senator Zien's hand in this issue.

I'm not in Wisconsin. I have friends in Wisconsin. I live in Oregon, which has almost no carry restrictions. Oregon and Wisconsin are similar in many ways, including some strong dairy traditions (no Wisconsin versus Tillamook cheese arguments, please. ;)), the way the cities are set up, the political atmosphere, and so on.

All that I ask is: Keep fighting. Don't do what Florida, North Carolina, and many states in the deep south did, and pass a law, and not fight for removing for restrictions. VCDL does the opposite, and have been quite successful. Keep at it, don't give up.

[CommonSense]

Hi Hunter Rose: There are many County laws that exceed State laws here. You do not have the right to open carry in Milwaukee. You state, “we here in Wisconsin have a preemption law”.., Good luck telling the judge some nitwit lawyer told you that. Stupidity is not a defense currently allowed. Further, I’m not a lawyer, but I do advise you to sue the one that told you that. He (or she) could have gotten you in to a lot of trouble!

You might want to drop the “Rose” part of your handle before heading off to prison. Had you have read this bill before posting, you’d see that local control is still possible.

[Monkeyleg]

CommonSense, you're right about the "technical" and "practical" aspects of carrying under current law. I don't want to spend a weekend in jail arguing that technically I have a right to carry openly.

I would, however, caution you against teasing Hunter Rose about the latter part of his online name. He's earned his stripes in the Navy, and I suspect that any snide comments about the "Rose" nom de pleur might result in physical harm. :)

[CommonSense]

Monkeyleg: If you can’t tell that I’m from the state after reading my posts, you worry me. Further, I was only trying to warn people of the current laws – especially after reading what all the amateur lawyers out there are telling their clients. Are you angry that I warned them before they marched on Dane and Milwaukee counties? Forget I said it then. You pay their bail.

Yes. If the bill passes, things change. If they don’t and anyone decides to march on Milwaukee’s City Hall, have bail money available. That’s all I was trying to tell the know-it-alls.

[CommonSense]

Monkeyleg: Anyone that feels the need to harm me because of his or her own uninformed statements, which will put another in peril, I’m not really worried about. Anyone that has ever threatened me with the use of force has learned that. I’m not afraid of any of threats anyone makes here.

[Monkeyleg]

CommonSense, I think it's so late in the evening that I can't joke around without being misunderstood.

First off: I know you're from Wisconsin. I was just kidding about you being an alien.

Secondly, there's no threat from Hunter Rose, unless you want to have him unleash dozens of attractive young ladies upon you. ;)

Third, just like you, I've tried to warn people about taking too literally the state's position on open carry. Some people don't want to work to achieve a goal that requires a real committment politically, physically, or in terms of time. They just want to be "miracled" what they want, without effort.

Fourth, when this is all over, I'd like to sit down at a George Webb's for coffee with you. Sorry, but that's about as haut de couture as I get.

[Strings]

>Hi Hunter Rose: There are many County laws that exceed State laws here. You do not have the right to open carry in Milwaukee. You state, “we here in Wisconsin have a preemption law”.., Good luck telling the judge some nitwit lawyer told you that. Stupidity is not a defense currently allowed. Further, I’m not a lawyer, but I do advise you to sue the one that told you that. He (or she) could have gotten you in to a lot of trouble!<

No... unfortunately, you really didn't read what I've posted (or I posted it in another thread, since we have several going at once). We do have a preemption law on the books... I distinctly remember it being passed. So any law that Milwaukee (county or city) has against open carry would be meaningless, and be struck down on appeal to higer courts (assuming you were found guilty of violating such in the first place).

HOWEVER, should you decide to carry openly in downtown Milwaukee, you would more than likely get busted for "disturbing the peace". Which, while a minor offense, would still cost money (and you would probably forfiet you weapon)...

I must respectfully suggest you actually read the laws before you comment on them. And, as for the "nitwit lawyer"... my only lawyer is kin, so don't be dissin' the boy... ;)

>You might want to drop the “Rose” part of your handle before heading off to prison. Had you have read this bill before posting, you’d see that local control is still possible.<

Huh? Yes, counties have the ability of "opting out", but that's only for issuance. Every county but one can opt out: so long as one county is issuing, those permits are good throughout the state. Any ordinance passed by Milwaukee (or Madison, or Appleton, or GB, or...) "banning" CCW would be meaningless...

Oh... BTW... Dick was joking about the "warning". Might I suggest you purchase a humour detector?

[Strings]

heck... why not do dutch at the Safe House for lunch some weekend? I'd drive down... maybe bring Spoon along too. And I haven't taken Angie out lately, and Julie is coming up to visit in a couple weeks... ;)

[CommonSense]

Monkeyleg: Thanks for picking on me. You seem to have me in your sights.

Hunter Rose: Nothing personal, but telling people the things you believe to be true will end up in lots of arrests. I hope you’re rich enough to to bail them all out. Again, believe what you want to believe. I’ll buy a “humour detector” when you stop advising people of their rights and go back to peacefully weaving the baskets your keepers have tried to entertain you with.

[Monkeyleg]

CommonSense, I don't have you "in my sights." It just seems that, everytime I try to alert THR members to what's going on, you pop up.

Lighten up. The battle lines have been drawn, and there will only be a couple of surprises either way.

And, the offer of George Webb's coffee still stands. Hunter Rose can join in as well.

Hunter, The Safe House was an attraction for newly-minted drinkers back in the 1970's. I'm absolutley amazed that the place is still in business today. It's like the Disneyworld of Milwaukee bars.

Now, if you want some really good night life, and some good blues, you have to go on the North Side, and be prepared to be Not Welcome White. Deb and I have spent many a night in some great blues and jazz joints over the years, but lately we seem to need somebody to "vouch" for us.

Oh, for the days when Frank Balistrieri ruled the city, and the criminals needed mob permission to even be criminals, and every little old lady was safe. Now we have "community-based" policing, and even Ahrnold wouldn't walk the streets.

RIP, Frank. A lot of us still miss you.

[cracked butt]

In other words, can you envision some "opt-out" sheriff having to eat a bit of crow to keep his deputies--and no small amount of money--back in his jurisdiction?

It is the job of the Journal Sentinel to demoralize gunowners. It's their job to make us all think that we cannot win.

Monkeyleg, I have no doubt that you are correct on both accounts.
I just find it disgraceful as to how these elected county sheriffs try to politicize my rights. I live in Washington county, and the local sheriff has put op-ed columns in my local paper about how is for the chilren to keep people from carrying personal protection. I've never paid much attention to sheriff's races in elections in the past, but I certainly will now.

[Cooter Brown]

Wisconsin Concealed Carry
The CC Bill has passed the legislature and on the way to Gov. Doyle's desk. If you want this legislation to be LAW, contact Gov. Doyle NOW, and also make sure your assembly-person and senator-person hear from you to be set to override the Governor's expected veto. Email, write, fax or telephone.

The Sheriff in Wisconsin is not an employeeof the County Board, so calling & supporting the local Sheriff (wasn't that a movie title??) will be a fruitful act for those who want to see CCW. Don't tell me why it won'twork--DO IT!!!
__________________
:cuss:

[DonP]

Hey, stop picking on these guys.

If we thought we could get a bill like that passed in Illinois we would be dancing in the streets. You guys from existing shal;l issue states aree forgetting how much of an effort it takes to go from nothing to something on these issues.

You have all or most of the media, the liberals activist groups and the sherriffs against you co-opting their personal priveleges of carrying.

Good work Monkeyleg. I hope Daley doesn't decide to annex Wisconsin or put up border crossing points on 90/94 to check you all for evil weapons.

Don P.

[Strings]

... and decided it was better handled privately. Don't want to get into a urination competition... ;)

And a thought occured to me: if *I* were sitting in the Goobernor's chair, and didn't like CCW, I might look at how things are going and say "Hmmm... they've got the votes to override my veto. I'll just let 'em stew, and simply not sign it... let them waste their effort, preparing to override me". Of course, I fully admit to being less than nice, so... >:)

[AJ Dual]

As long as it passes, I don't care what Doyle does.

That's actually the take I've been trying to encourage with him. (like it matters) Encouraging him not to sign, let CCW pass by default (for those outside WI, we don't have "pocket veto"), and not suffer the embarrassment of being overridden, expending political capital close to elections on this etc. etc.

It's the only way he can guarantee some victory out of this, he can at least go back to all the anti's and blissninny's come election time and claim he "refused to sign off" on CCW...

[xenophon]

Yeah, someone take SB214 off Doyle's desk and hide it somewhere in the room where he won't find it...for 6 days :neener:

[Gray Peterson]

For Common Sense:

Wisconsin's preemption law that was passed in 1995:

66.0409 Local regulation of firearms.

66.0409(1)(b)"Political subdivision" means a city, village, town or county.

66.0409(2) Except as provided in subs. (3) and (4), no political subdivision may enact an ordinance or adopt a resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, purchase delay, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, unless the ordinance or resolution is the same as or similar to, and no more stringent than, a state statute.

66.0409(4)(b)If a political subdivision has in effect on November 17, 1995, an ordinance or resolution that regulates the sale, purchase, transfer, ownership, use, keeping, possession, bearing, transportation, licensing, permitting, registration or taxation of any firearm or part of a firearm, including ammunition and reloader components, and the ordinance or resolution is not the same as or similar to a state statute, the ordinance or resolution shall have no legal effect and the political subdivision may not enforce the ordinance or resolution on or after November 18, 1995.

----

No laws against open carry in Wisconsin State Statute? You can carry openly on foot.

[Strings]

... I was just too damn lazy to look up the relevant statute. You da man!

[CommonSense]

Hi Lonnie: Thank you for bringing me up to date. It does appear amendments made in ’95, ’98 and ’01 have the State Supreme Court convinced it is legal to override local governing agencies.

I checked a little further and Hunter Rose is correct that now they just charge you with, “Disturbing The Peace”, or “Disorderly Conduct” depending on your behavior. If you’re a real butt-head, it appears you get charged with “Obstructing” as well. I also learned that if you don’t cooperate in a manner the police approve of in Milwaukee, they will not just give you a ticket and send you on your way. They’ll take you in to booking and let you sit there a few hours (the same as they did with the “ticket scalpers” you may have read about). I tried to find out what happened to people from out of state without success.

Anyway, thank you both for your information. This has been a question in our office recently.

Lonnie: What is a law regarding the weapon being loaded? I tried reading the microprint, but my eyes were sore after helping someone move until 12:15 this morning. Plus, the only way I can read these laws is to print them out, and my home laser is suffering for power and I’m not at work (Lord knows I wouldn’t think of printing one of these out on the inkjet!)