Remington 700 extractor - how big of a weak link?


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Benelli Shooter
December 25, 2009, 09:53 PM
I just had an extractor fail on my 30-06 Remington 700 ADL. I had not given much thought before the failure. But, now, I am somewhat amazed at what a fragile design is in this gun. The extractor is a thin piece of metal. I have ordered a replacement and a spare. Has anyone else had one fail personally?

It has made me question the durability of my gun. I am seriously considering selling the thing to buy a new CRF Winchester model 70.

Reliability is one of my primary concerns in a firearm. Is this an over reaction?

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adobewalls
December 25, 2009, 10:16 PM
I have never experienced an extractor failure on a Remington and I have owned several. But then again, I am not shooting 1,000's of rounds per year either. With that said, it is a known issue and there are fixes for it:

http://www.davidtubb.com/extractors.html

GJgo
December 25, 2009, 10:26 PM
Haven't heard of that one, but I have heard of the 700 brazed-on bolt handles falling off. Heresay, but still..

Uncle Mike
December 25, 2009, 10:58 PM
Normal, if used a lot! Not a big deal....the sako extractor is a great idea and is highly recommended!
For around $60 or so, you should be able to get one installed.

The rifle is plenty durable, it is a machine, and a simple part has failed...that's all.

The Model 70's bolt is a tiny bit more fragile than the Remington, and if you had experienced a failure with it, you may felt it was inferior also. BTW, neither the Winchester or the Remington is 'fragile'....

Geno
December 26, 2009, 12:12 AM
I have had this failure two times. It doesn't merit selling the rifle. At worst, enhance the bolt as Uncle Mike indicated. There are various after-market availabilities. Now, if you simply "want" a Winchester, more power to you. But, understand that a CRF rifle can fail to eject round that stick in a chamber. I have witnessed a Model 70, a Mark X and Mauser CRF rifles fail to extract fired rounds from the chamber. Firearms are tools. Tools wear and break. Fix-it; fire-it; forget-it.

Geno

Subternal
December 26, 2009, 12:57 PM
In response to the original post about having issue's with the remington 700 extractor, here's my issue:

This is a remington 700 XCR long range tactical in .308, brand new. I've had it exactly 2days and put about 23rnds through it. I was using Ultramax ammo bought at Dicks sporting goods. this exractor literally sheered off and I was unable to extract the casing. It easily came out with a tap from the cleaning rod. But I just wanted to give an example these extractors failing. I'm not against remington, and since it is Xmas I have not been able to talk to them about a warranty remedy. It was a real blower when it happened ....just was curious to see if it happened to anyone else...

..I guess a better question would be: is it worth going to remington for a warranty claim or to just pay the $13 for a new extractor?

Boris Barowski
December 26, 2009, 01:51 PM
go for the warranty claim. First of all it sends a message to their QC dept. that something is wrong, and if customer service does its job right, you'll get the free part and maybe some free stuff or a coupon or something :)


BTW, the SAKO style extractor does remove the safety the fully enclosed bolt face ("3 rings of steel") gives you if you have a catastrophic malfunction with overpressure. Or do I have the wrong idea about that kind of extractor? :)

Geno
December 26, 2009, 02:29 PM
I have seen several of this mishap over the years. It is not a weekly, or even annual event. Where is the remainder of the extractor?

A certified Remington servicing dealer can repair it under warranty, with Remington's permission. The dealer will bill Remington. That is what I just did (4ish weeks ago).

Geno

Uncle Mike
December 26, 2009, 03:06 PM
BTW, the SAKO style extractor does remove the safety the fully enclosed bolt face ("3 rings of steel") gives you if you have a catastrophic malfunction with overpressure. Or do I have the wrong idea about that kind of extractor?

No worries!

But, now, I am somewhat amazed at what a fragile design is in this gun. The extractor is a thin piece of metal. I have ordered a replacement and a spare. Has anyone else had one fail personally?

Fragile design...!?!? That design has been working in a excellent fashion for many, many, many, years!

It amazes me....someones extractor pops and it is the very worst design made, pure unadulterated junk, I tell ya...!

Could Remington have gone cheap and gotten some junk extractors, or maybe they didn't buy junk, maybe they just received a bad lot of extractors. How would Remington know...?

.I guess a better question would be: is it worth going to Remington for a warranty claim or to just pay the $13 for a new extractor?

Send it back to Remington...call them up...demand a pre-paid return label. (your just going to send the bolt back, not the entire rifle)

SlamFire1
December 26, 2009, 06:37 PM
BTW, the SAKO style extractor does remove the safety the fully enclosed bolt face ("3 rings of steel") gives you if you have a catastrophic malfunction with overpressure. Or do I have the wrong idea about that kind of extractor?

No worries!

Uncle Mike: Somewhere in my decade of web searching, I read a thread about the limitations of the SAKO extractor conversion.

As per my memory, there was a reputable gunsmith who installed SAKO extractors on M700's. This might have been Kenny Jarrett . One day at the range, he had a pressure problem. His converted rifle blew his SAKO extractor out injuring him. The post I read said it blinded him in one eye. This is something I have been unable to confirm.

This guy then recalled all the rifles he had converted and restored them to Remington configuration.

The M700 protects the shooter very well from case head ruptures.

It is of course, at a cost. All actions are a compromise. All action designers make design trades. I think the best overall compromise is the Mauser 98. It is, in my book, simply the best action every designed. Remington decided to weight shooter protection a more than feed and extraction reliability. So you have this tiny extractor in the thing. It works, but it is not as durable as a claw. If you cut the bolt head ring, then you have created a gas channel out of the breech. So it is like a safety belt, hopefully you will never need the breeching protection offered by a Rem 700, but then if you do have a problem, you will be glad you had it.

It is a matter of how much risk you are willing to live with.

I have a SAKO, (which has a poor breech design) so I guess I am living dangerously. :D

http://www.jarheadtop.com/FAQ_40X_or_Rem_700_Action.htm


http://www.jarheadtop.com/FAQ_40X_or_Rem_700_Action.htm

Quote:
But, now, I am somewhat amazed at what a fragile design is in this gun. The extractor is a thin piece of metal. I have ordered a replacement and a spare. Has anyone else had one fail personally?

Fragile design...!?!? That design has been working in a excellent fashion for many, many, many, years!

It amazes me....someones extractor pops and it is the very worst design made, pure unadulterated junk, I tell ya...!

Remington extractors are not the only extractors that break. It was well known, and I have replaced push feed M70 extractors, on the bloody firing line at Highpower matches.

I think the Mauser claw, or the pre 64 claw to the be most reliable extractor ever built as long as you feed from the magazine box. You snap one of those over enough cartridge rims, and the claw will also break in time.

Almond27
December 26, 2009, 06:50 PM
Hmm I wouldn't call it a fragile design, The military wouldn't have chose the Remington M700's as their DMR rifle if it had a fragile design. I'd definitely call Remington and let them fix it first. Hell M1a's lose extractors every now and then but people don't call them fragile just saying not trying to flame you honestly.

Uncle Mike
December 26, 2009, 08:54 PM
Yeah, they ALL will give up sometime or another!

The Mouse claw(hehehe) will break, as you say, if you force it over enough rims.

Any design will fail, given enough pressure to contend with...

I bet Remington received a bad batch of extractors, too brittle.

What I was saying, and it is amusing, we will have a customer tell the world how the sun rises and sets in his rifle, I mean this gun cannot disappoint, then something breaks, and most of the time it is due to the owner doing something wrong,and his holy grail of rifles just became a turd of the first order.

Nothing directed towards anybody here!

If your extractor is the clip-in type, have Remington send you one and put it in yourself, if it is riveted in, send it back to Remington, but do insist on a pre-paid return lable!

Benelli Shooter
December 26, 2009, 10:31 PM
Uncle Mike, you may not agree that the design is fragile. But, it is a reasonable question. Most people who hunt dangerous game will not use a gun with a Remington style extractor

Just because the military uses something, does not mean it is the best solution. If it was, the 92FS would be the premier fighting handgun.

I am an engineer. This part is not exactly "over engineered". It is more than fair to say it is the weak link in the operation.

Redneck with a 40
December 26, 2009, 10:59 PM
I bought a used Rem 700 SPS Tac last year, I've since put 500 rounds of my handload's downrange, I've had no problems. As a matter of fact, the extraction is very positive, tosses the cases several feet.:)

RE-15
December 27, 2009, 06:51 AM
My 700p has seen 2000 shots, no ext problem

alsaqr
December 27, 2009, 07:13 AM
I own about a dozen Remington model 700, 721 and 722 rifles. Some of those guns have fired over 10,000 rounds. I have never had a Remington extractor fail.

dirtyjim
December 27, 2009, 09:25 AM
one of the things often overlooked on the sako extractor conversions is the bolt guide that keeps the extractor from blowing out the side of the rifle if you blow a case head on sako rifles. to use this on a remmy you must also machine a groove around the bolt for the collar to hold it in place. 99% of the people doing sako conversions just mill the slot of the ejector, drill the hole for the spring & call it done.

CZguy
December 27, 2009, 09:27 AM
I own about a dozen Remington model 700, 721 and 722 rifles. Some of those guns have fired over 10,000 rounds. I have never had a Remington extractor fail.

While my round count isn't near that high, I've never had a problem with the 700 I bought in 1970.

Uncle Mike
December 27, 2009, 04:50 PM
Uncle Mike, you may not agree that the design is fragile. But, it is a reasonable question. Most people who hunt dangerous game will not use a gun with a Remington style extractor

I do agree the Remington extractor can be more fragile than some of the other designs.

Redneck with a 40
December 27, 2009, 07:21 PM
Seems to me, the Marine snipers would not use a rifle with a "fragile" extractor, not in the life or death situations they face. They've stuck with Remington, its served them very well for 50 years.

Almond27
December 27, 2009, 07:49 PM
Redneck, that is exactly what I was thinking.

USSR
December 27, 2009, 09:35 PM
A couple years ago, I was spotting for a guy at a 1,000 yard F Class match. His M700 extractor let go, and he used my cleaning rod as an "extractor" for the rest of the match.

Don

Bart B.
December 28, 2009, 06:57 AM
In high power competition, Remington extractors have been norotious for breaking. At the other end of the spectrum, Winchester pre '64 classic ones are the most reliable. I've had one break and they can be replaced pretty fast without tools.

Regarding the choice of Remington 700's over Winchester 70's for the US military sniper rifle base in the late 1960's, all the military rifle team members who were also top snipers at one time or currently employed as such (Hathcock, Krilling, Wright) preferred the Winchester. Besides all the team members as well as top competitive shooters knew the reliability difference between the two actions. Their needs were best served by the Winchester because its.....

Extractor was more reliable, yes the post '64 push feed one is almost as reliable as the classic one.

Receiver is near three times stiffer.

Firing pin can be replaced with only a pair of pliers, not special tools.

Safety directly locks the firing pin, not the trigger, and survives drops without firing.

Had faster and more reliable bolt operation due to the longer and better shaped bolt handle.

More reliable feeding from the magazine in rapid fire.

The rectangular receiver design prevented it from twisting a bit loose from epoxy bedding in a few hundred rounds when bullets heavier than 160 grains were used.

= = = = = = = = = = =

But Winchester was in financial straits; the top military brass felt it would not be a good idea to continue with a company thay may fold at any time. They wanted a company that was better off in their finances. So they picked the Remington. GySgt Hathcock kept his Winchester. He told me at the 1971 Interservice Rifle Matches the government's made other mistakes regarding small arms before this one. And even though his old Model 70's accuracy had dropped off somewhat, he still knew it was the best comprise to make for what was needed to do his special job from long range.

ArmedBear
December 28, 2009, 07:47 AM
They've stuck with Remington, its served them very well for 50 years.


Now maybe I'm wrong, but I thought their Remingtons have about as much in common with an off-the-shelf 700 as those "10/22" rifles people use in competition have in common with an off-the-shelf Ruger.

Furthermore, they're not fighting rifles, in that snipers don't expect to use them like US troops once used the '03A3, which has a real extractor.

Every piece of machinery has some "weak link."

farscott
December 28, 2009, 08:03 AM
I just do not shoot enough .308 out of my 700 to worry about the extractor. If mine fails, I will get it fixed; I only use it for occasional deer hunting and informal target shooting. The 700 is not something upon which I rely for anything but sport.

That said, I think I bought my last 700. The issue with the 700 firing upon closing the bolt bothers me as does Remington's grudging response to the issue.

I seem to have converted over to the Ruger 77 Mark II after getting my daughter a Frontier in .308.

Readyrod
December 28, 2009, 09:26 AM
Does the Remington 7600 have the same extractor? I'm thinking of getting one but I like tough tools.

ArmedBear
December 28, 2009, 09:41 AM
7600 is a completely different design, for better or for worse.

Readyrod
December 28, 2009, 06:25 PM
Worse?

ArmedBear
December 28, 2009, 08:40 PM
What I mean is that the 7600 is completely different in every way: design, function, parts, aesthetics, fit, balance, features. Whether you like it or not, and what you do or don't like about it, has no relation to the 700.:)

You have to decide if you like it.

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 08:46 PM
In an older Remington...I've never seen it happen (broken extractor)

I could believe the newer ones are cheap parts though...

Uncle Mike
December 28, 2009, 08:52 PM
The auto loader is different in its extractor design.

To be fair, let us say that maybe ol' Remington received a lot, of bad, brittle, whatever, from the vendor...and how exactly would Remington know these things were junk...I mean firing 5 rounds for function isn't enough to cause the extractor failures.

USSR
December 28, 2009, 09:55 PM
In an older Remington...I've never seen it happen (broken extractor)

In my case anyways, the rifle was an older 40X model.

Don

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 29, 2009, 10:52 AM
how exactly would Remington know these things were junkQualification and lot acceptance testing?

tosses cases just fineThat is ejection, not extraction. One is the prerequisite for the other. Personally, I prefer a standing ejector, then I can tailor the ejection or non-ejection as necessary.

three rings of steelIn my opinion, this is a red herring. The design intent of a brass case is to serve as a pressure seal, and to rupture at over pressure. In a properly designed action, the gas from this rupture is channeled safely away from the shooter.

In a Remington, the case cannot fail. Therefore the action or barrel has to fail. Not a likely scenario, but a far worse one.

In my opinion, much of the design of push feeders was to simplify manufacture and lower cost, period. The result is a servicable and accurate arm, but far from ideal.

Subternal
December 29, 2009, 07:41 PM
Here's an update...

I talked to remington about the failed extractor. They were actually quite helpful. They simply told me they would ship me out an extractor for free. I didn't even have my warranty registration sent in yet (only had it 2days at the time). SO at the very least I can say remington honored their product and warranty. I understand that an extractor is only a $13 part from the store and it probably cost them little to none to send me out a new one but in the least they were good on their word.

Look, Im not trying to knock remington. For all those that state they've had remingtons that have gone thousands of rounds without failure, thats great and good for you. I have only gotten 20 rounds through mine before a problem so I envy you. But Even after that I am still willing to chock that up to a fluke and say $@#% happens, which it does. If the next one last a few thousand rounds, I wont even care about this incident. But if this is a frequent occurance, then I'd have to say this is a product defect regardless of how many people had better luck.

DennyF
December 29, 2009, 08:48 PM
Most likely a fluke, but I "see" complaints about Remington's QC often these days?

Within my circle of friends/acquaintances, dwell dozens of M700s, including some varminters that have seen many thousands of rounds. Some of those are on their second barrels. None have ever had an extractor or ejector failure, including any of mine. Some of these rifles date to the mid 70s.

Drue
December 29, 2009, 09:15 PM
I am personally acquainted with two extractor failures on Rem 700s. Both were .308 silhouette rifles. My own let go at approximately 9,500 rounds and a buddy had one fail at around 10,400 rounds. Both shot mostly 168gr bullets at 2550 to 2600 fps, fullish but not hot loads. The both broke at the rivet. I have no complaints about the service provided by these small pieces of steel about the size of a big toenail clipping. The problem was that the replacements required, in addition the the extractors and rivets, a drill press and vice, hammer and punch, a correctly shaped buck and a file. Hardly something that be can be done in the field or on the range. The newer Remingtons do not use the rivet.

The Sako extractors nay be a solution but they do compromise one of the three rings of steel which makes the Remingtons so strong.

Drue

evan price
December 30, 2009, 03:19 AM
Uncle Mike, you may not agree that the design is fragile. But, it is a reasonable question. Most people who hunt dangerous game will not use a gun with a Remington style extractor

Well, that's a misleading argument, actually a fallacy.

People who hunt dangerous game prefer a Controlled Round Feed action because they might need to make a second shot while the rifle is not in perfect position to feed for a non-CRF style action. The Rem 700 is NOT CRF. Therefore it is not preferred for dangerous game. The same could be said for a push-feed post-64 Winchester Model 70.

Horsemany
December 30, 2009, 07:21 AM
I've seen several 700's used in Africa. Some even by the guides.

Uncle Mike
December 30, 2009, 11:06 AM
Fragile compared to......

Other extractor, yes, I will agree the Remington extractor is not as hearty as say a CRF Mauser type, but it is designed like this to serve a purpose.
The Savage extractors fail more often than the Remingtons do. But they sure are easier to replace! lol

I think Remington just got a bad batch of them, no problem.

EdLaver
December 30, 2009, 11:39 AM
I noticed that my VTR in .308 fails to chamber rounds after I have shot and worked the bolt, is this an extractor issue?

Subternal
December 30, 2009, 09:08 PM
it fails to chamber a round? No, thats not an extractor issue. If you said it fails to eject or "extract" the previous 'spent' round, then I'd say extractor.

On another note in case anyone is interested, got a new extractor from brownells today (having remington send me a spare) and installed it. Threw a few rounds down range, spits them out like a champ. Im gonna give it a few dozen more rounds before I'd call it problem fixed, but works great so far...

Benelli Shooter
December 30, 2009, 09:15 PM
When my extractor went bad, my 700 would not chamber a round. I put a new one in today. It now closes the bolt on live rounds when it didn't before.

Bart B.
December 31, 2009, 06:49 AM
Mr. Pale Horse says:In my opinion, this is a red herring. The design intent of a brass case is to serve as a pressure seal, and to rupture at over pressure. In a properly designed action, the gas from this rupture is channeled safely away from the shooter.

In a Remington, the case cannot fail. Therefore the action or barrel has to fail. Not a likely scenario, but a far worse one.The case can fail in any action. I was next to a guy shooting a Rem. 40X in .30-.338 magnum when a partial head separation happened. He didn't get hurt.

Another incident at a local range was complete head separation in a Rem. 700 in .30-06. Again, shooter didn't get hurt.

A case can fail in any action. The above case failures have nothing to do with bolt and receiver designs. They're the result of improper reloading processes and how the case fit the chamber.

A test at the USN Small Arms Match Conditioning Unit in the mid 1960's with an old M1903 Springfield with new .30-06 M72 primed M72 match cases and M2 172-gr. match bullets was done to see how much powder was needed to blow the receiver/barrel apart. The bolt had to be beat open after cases full of one powder faster than IMR4895 from those live rounds was used but the receiver, bolt and barrel held. And yes, headspace had increased quite a bit. It was only after a case near full of Bullseye pistol powder was used that finally pushed the old war horse to its limits and it finally let go into several pieces. This was a "low number" receiver that was supposed to be weak.

Mr_Pale_Horse
December 31, 2009, 08:45 AM
The above case failures have nothing to do with bolt and receiver designs. They're the result of improper reloading processes and how the case fit the chamber.
The test below has everything to do with action design.

I did the following test with a 1896 Swedish Mauser: an over charge using a case full to the neck of IMR 4064 in new, full length resized brass, 140 Nosler Partition Bullet. The case web bulged and blew into the void where there is no case support. The action was opened with a mallet and test was repeated with the same result.

The case failed because it was not fully supported.

A really fast powder like a pistol powder would likely have blown it to bits.

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