[Dad-Gummit]

I'm in the market for a new shooting iron, and I'm looking real hard into a G-20. After firing one last week, I did'nt feel the harsh recoil that people talk about. To me, it was about the same as a +P in my G-17(9mm), which is my carry gun. I like the ballistics of this round, sort like a real man's .40, and I also like the fact that I can put 15rds into the G-20(it comes with a pre-ban). To me, it seems to offer a whole lot more than a .40, and I wont give up too much to the .45. I reload so ammo is not a problem. And the main reason that I want one is because I don't have one.

[dairycreek]

I have found it to be a terrific load with which to work. I load as well and have some loads worked up that are in the .41 magnum area and are still safe to shoot in my Glock. Makes for one heck of a "woods gun". BTW have you seen the new Dan Wesson "Razorback"? Looks really interesting as a 10mm platform. FWIW here is the Dan Wesson URL. http://www.danwessonfirearms.com/. Good shooting:)

[NordicG3K]

In my non-biased opinion ;) the G20 is the best all-around handgun in a serious caliber. You can use FBI "Lite" loads which duplicate .40 S&W ballistics, or you can go with full-power loads such as Texas Ammo's fodder which thump on the the ole' .45 ACP. Add to that Glock reliability and a 15-round capacity and it's hard, VERY HARD to beat. About the only real concern is grip size, but a G20 with a Hogue slip-on feels fine in my medium sized hands.

[DeltaElite]

I'm kinda fond of 10mm's. ;)
My first 10mm was a Glock 20, then a Glock 29 and now Delta's.

The 10mm is versatile, effective and way cool. :D
I carry 155gr Tritons at 1400fps or 175gr Silvertips at 1290fps.
I think those numbers sell the cartridge all by themselves.

[denfoote]

I wasn't really into the 10mm until a G29 followed me home. Now, since I 've had it a while, the little fellow has grown on me!!! I just wish the ammo wern't so expensive. :banghead: Yeah, I know about the various internet sights that sell it, but I've found that after you add shipping, the price comes out pretty much the same!! :(

[Forseti]

A dead or dying caliber. Ever increasing costs for ammo, and ever decreasing availabilty. Not adopted by any major military as a standard, which is a big help for availability of ammo.

I expect that 10mm used guns will continue to have attractive prices because of this, as more get dumped into the used market.

If you love the Glock so much, why not just get a Glock 21? (.45 caliber).

[cratz2]

O.K. guys-talk me in or out of 10mm

Where's Sean? :D

Really, interesting caliber. More energy than our beloved 45s. Capable of handgun hunting (depending on case length requirements) and with full loads are honking good fun. But ammo is a bit pricey and may be hard to come by depending on where you are located.

I've never had one but I have access to three of them. Always leave a smile on my face like this one ---> :D

[DeltaElite]

A dead or dying caliber.

Hehe, haha....... ohhhhhhhhh, that's a good one. :p
It's been dead or dying for over a decade now. It will be around a good long time.
Just like the 41Magnum, too good to go away.

[agtman]

"A dead or dying caliber."

:rolleyes:


Right, which is why Dan Wesson is marketing it's new 10mm 1911-pattern "Razorback." Because it's real economical to make guns in "dead calibers" no one shoots anymore, huh? :rolleyes: By the way, when's the next funeral? It's only been pronounced dead about a dozen times since 1990.

"Ever increasing costs for ammo ..."

Try: http://www.georgia-arms.com

$180 for a 1000 rds of reloadable 10mm ammo. (That's 18-cents per rd for you math-challenged types).

"I like the ballistics of this round, sort of like a real man's .40,.."

Finally, someone's gettin' the picture. :D

And for a taste of a "real man's" 10mm Auto - the way God, Jeff Cooper and Sonny Crocket wanted it :) - try any of Texas Ammo's full-strength 10mm loads (they offer four), especially their "heavy & fast" 200gn loads.

See: http://glocktalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=84117

You might also check out GT's 10Ring for reliable info on Glock's 10mm pistols and the 10mm cartridge generally.

HTH. :cool:

[1goodshot]

Sounds like you already talked yourself into it. Just get it youll be happy. You might want to look at a S&W or a Delta Elite they are both nice 10 mms.

[10-Ring]

I had a S&W 1076 that I really liked. Only true downside was the ammo cost. Too bad I sold it now that I'm into reloading...maybe it's time to add one to my '03 wish list :scrutiny:
Accurate, fun to shoot, has some giddy-up to it! Nice round.

[bedlamite]

Ever increasing costs for ammo, and ever decreasing availabilty.

I think you have a typo here, it should read "Ever decreasing costs for ammo, and ever increasing availabilty." There are more 10mm guns made now than there were 10 years ago.

[Sean Smith]

How did I miss this topic earlier? :D

First, a brief 10mm primer:

http://www.geocities.com/mr_motorhead/10mminfo.html

10mm Auto is easily my favorite handgun cartridge. I've owned several, and am waiting on my new Delta Elite to get to me once the FFL-to-FFL transfer gets done with. Its virtues are:

1. Power. 10mm Auto is the most powerful cartridge you can get in a factory autoloader of practical size. Factory hunting loads from Cor-Bon are pushing 700 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle from a 4.6" barrel. Esoteric wildcats like .45 Super and .400 Cor-Bon can sometimes match, but not surpass, 10mm Auto ballistics. Neither one has loads that offer the deeper penetration potential of the 200-220gr 10mm loads. Only wildcats like .40 Super or .460 Rowland give you more muzzle energy, by which point you've pushed your handgun literally to the breaking point.

2. Versatility. As an autoloader cartridge, 10mm is unsurpassed in its versatility. Bullets from 135-220gr, speeds from 900-1,800 ft/sec, with 10mm you can handle anything from hunting to self-defense to plinking to competition. If it doesn't need a .44 Magnum to get done, 10mm can do it.

3. Accuracy. 10mm Auto is capable of an extremely high degree of accuracy. With a drop-in Bar-Sto barrel my old Delta Elite shot into 0.8" at 25 yards. Even factory stock 10mm guns in general seem to have an unusual tendency to be very accurate. Full power 10mm loads are, of course, very flat-shooting as well due to their high velocity.

4. Safety. This isn't brought up often, but there is a reason you don't hear about 10mm guns having kB!'s like .40 S&W, .38 Super or even .357 Sig. The 10mm Auto case was designed from the ground up to stand up to high pressures safely... in fact, the case was designed to stand up to 53,000 CUP, with most published "max" loads being only 38,000 or less. Even with handloads, if you are using good 10mm powders (e.g. AA#7 & #9) you will sometimes run out of case capacity before your load is hot enough to be of concern.

USUAL DISCLAIMER: Don't be stupid when you handload. You CAN blow up a 10mm if you are dumb enough. :)

There are some downsides to 10mm, though they aren't deal-breakers.

1. Ammo availability. Every major company makes 10mm ammo for every conceiveable use, and if you shop around you can actually pay less for 10mm practice fodder than .45 ACP. But your corner store might not have it on the shelf, or might charge something stupid like $15 for Speer Blazers.

The best bargain for getting lots of 10mm ammo is Georgia Arms, though you can also find good sales on Blazer from Natchez. It is also a great cartridge to handload for.

http://www.georgia-arms.com/pistol.htm

http://www.natchezss.com/

2. Platform size. 10mm Auto requires a platform big enough to handle .45 ACP (since the cartridge overall length is about the same). If you want an itty-bitty gun, then 10mm takes a back seat to 9mm, .40 S&W or .357 Sig.

[Trisha]

If I had access to pre-ban Glock 20 mags at pre-ban prices I'd absolutely go for it!

Civilians don't get the nice toys without deep bank accounts...

Yes - the Delta Elite has a good reputation herebouts - but if I were looking at a 10mm, then it'd be the G20. I guess I'll stick with the .45acp till then!

Trisha

[Sean Smith]

The only real problem with the Delta Elite is that the prices seem to be rising. $650 used to be the norm for blued ones just a couple of years ago, but now it seems more like $850.

Now if you want a really GREAT 10mm... customize a Delta Elite!

:D

[Peter M. Eick]

Just look at the numbers. The 10mm is faster then the 45 in same bullet weights, has only .05" less diameter (not much if you all ask me) and has more downrange power then the 9mm, 357sig or most of the other cartraiges.

The real question is why do so many people hang onto the 45acp when the 10mm is such a better round?

[DeltaElite]

What Peter said. :)

[Zundfolge]

The real question is why do so many people hang onto the 45acp when the 10mm is such a better round?

3 reasons

1. perceived excessive recoil (whether true or not its still a perception).
2. perceived higher cost/lower availability of ammo (again, whether true or not, still the prevailing perception)

and probably most important.
3. not as many launch platforms available.


The more I read about 10mm the more I think I may want one instead of a .45. Would especially like a Delta Elite ... fondled one at a gun shop a while back and have had it on my mind since then ... I need to shoot one sometime. Also, if Glock would make a 10mm version of the G36 I think I'd have to have one of those.

[blades67]

I think Forseti is just a bit uneducated about the 10mm Auto.

I use my G20 as my backpacking and home defense handgun.

We won't be able to talk you into, or out of, one, you know you've already decided you want one.:D

[Dave Williams]

Buy it. Load it with the 135gr CorBon like Ted Nugent. Very cool. I think I read somewhere that he has 80 prebans for his 20. Wow!

Dave

[Wildalaska]

O.K. guys-talk me in or out of 10mm

Why?

Alaska10mmisOKAlaska

[Skunkabilly]

Uh, because the FBI likes it? ;)

[tetchaje1]

Mmmmmmmm! ;)

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/pubimage.asp?id_=1413672

(Basically what Sean said... :) )

[Sean Smith]

More like, "because the FBI were too sissified to stick to it!"

:evil:

[Forseti]

People who love 10mm are a determined bunch (well, I guess so are all others who enjoy owning firearms, myself included).

So lets talk numbers and manufacturers as it relates to demand.

A quick search of www.valorcorp.com (a distributor to dealers) lists two manufacturers of 10mm handguns they have in stock, Glock and S&W. A very small number held in inventory, which is representative of demand. Compare that to other, more common calibers, like 9mm, .40, .45, etc. Heck, they are even offering more .25 caliber pistols, which I am amazed anyone even bothers with.

Guns tend to stick around a long time...it is pretty tough to wear one out (really). So, there is a market for 10mm ammo that will take a long time to "burn out". In fact, since there are so many 10mm that exist today, it is probably beyond my lifetime that the market will totally go away for the ammo. However, unless there is growth, or a high amount of regular purchases of NEW 10mm guns, at best the caliber will be relegated to "boutique" status; high prices, low volumes. At worst, the economics will eventually dry up existing 10mm manufacturing lines. Just economics, nothing against the caliber itself.

An objective way to see a caliber in decline/ascendence is to track new gun purchases in a particular caliber (normalized for overall gun purchases, of course...if the industry as a whole is selling more or less units to private individuals, you have to take that into consideration).

I would love to see a chart of newly manufactured 10mm handguns sold over time, excluding used purchases (probably impossible to get the data). My guess is that it is slowly declining over time when normalized against the overall industry sales to private individuals. In which case, although it will take a long time, the writing is on the wall.

If someone knows where to get such data (possibly major firearms distributors?) it would be very interesting.

I don't know how forthcoming distributors would be with such info...here is a short list, if anyone has lots of free time:
http://directory.google.com/Top/Recreation/Guns/Wholesalers_and_Distributors/

[jem375]

To compare the 10MM to a 45ACP is stupid.........one is strictly self defense at close range, although game has fallen to it........the other is almost the equivalent of the 41 mag, not quite, but almost.........
I just bought a Dan Wesson Pointman Major in 45ACP, and soon will be buying the 10MM from them also, but, it is a good thing I reload for all my guns..........

[10-Ring]

Dad-Gummit
What did you decide? You know, a topic of this nature posed to a bunch of gun geeks :neener: may not be the most objective forum. Perhaps you just needed to be gently pushed off the edge?

[mso]

NIJ Standard-0112.03, Autoloading Pistols for Police Officers

This revision of the standard deletes the 10mm and adds the 357 SIG caliber.

The 10mm is great. But it wouldn't be my first/only choice for most things I do with pistols any more than a Hummer would be for most of my driving... ;)

[tetchaje1]

However, unless there is growth, or a high amount of regular purchases of NEW 10mm guns, at best the caliber will be relegated to "boutique" status; high prices, low volumes. At worst, the economics will eventually dry up existing 10mm manufacturing lines. Just economics, nothing against the caliber itself.

:rolleyes:

I guess that is why EAA Witness, Dan Wesson, Springfield, Glock, and others have introduced new models of 10mm firearms in the past few years. In fact, there are more 10mm models offered today then there were back when the 10mm cartridge was in its "hayday".

The main problem with the 10mm in the early days was the lack of reliable information getting to the consumer. With the pansies at the FBI feeling that the 10mm was too much for them, it signified a period of hybernation for the fledgling cartridge. The advent of the internet has changed all of that, and interest in one of the most versatile cartridges offered continues to grow because people have discovered the truth about it.

Oh yeah, Dan Wesson has a large percentage of their new Razorbacks spoken for before they have even gone into production.

I'm not saying 10mm is going to surpass 40S&W or anything, but it is far from being "boutique".

[agtman]

"My guess is that it [10mm sales] is slowly declining over time when normalized against the overall industry sales to private individuals."


Well, you'd be guessing wrong. Actually it's been slowly increasing, in both sales of 10mm guns and 10mm ammo.

The Sept. 2001 issue of ShootingTimes reported an increase in sales of Glock 20s and S&W's reintroduced 610 10mm revolver. The 610 was actually "reintroduced" at the 1998 SHOT Show, due to customer demand. The article, in part, cited comments from Glock reps at the May 2001 NRA Convention as indicating that "demand from hunters for the Glock 10mm Model 20 hunting package was still strong."

The article also reported an increase in 10mm ammo sales, citing "industry sources," but these sources were clearly identified as the usual suspects like Federal, Winchester, Hornady, and PMC - but, ironically, not from the lesser known 10mm ammo makers, like Georgia Arms, ProLoad or Texas Ammo, who no doubt would have reported heavy sales of their 10mm ammo too.

Ask yourself this: why would a major gunrag bother to go out on a limb to report these facts about a supposedly "dead/dying" cartridge if such information wasn't true? If increased 10mm sales weren't occurring, it simply wouldn't be newsworthy.

And all of this is before you consider that Glock brought out a second 10mm pistol on the U.S. market (the G-29) long after the 10mm was allegedly declared dead and buried for the 10th time. Then Tanfaglio began importing two Witness pistols in 10mm.

And this year Dan Wesson becomes the first domestic gunmaker to offer a 10mm since Colt or S&W in the early 90s.

Kinda strange these companies would do this when the financial risks of marketing handguns chambered for a "dead" cartridge no one wants strongly suggest otherwise? :rolleyes:

[Forseti]

First off, I do NOT trust gun mags. Actually, having dealt with the press before, I don't trust any mags. The reason: many write articles and reviews based on the advertising dollars funneled their way for particular products.

A hypothetical example: You buy a lot of ads for the new .XX caliber line your company makes...and articles appear favorably talking about caliber .XX at the same time.

I find most mags RARELY give reviewed guns bad reviews. You practically have to read between the lines when they talk about stoppages or failures...with the exception of NRA pubs, which are pretty matter-of-fact about reviews.

Statistics about increasing sales of 10mm's are invalid UNLESS they are normalized against industry sales in general. If 9mms, .45s, .40s, and everything else is ALSO increasing (but at a faster rate than previous industry stats it would indicate a general increase in arms sales), normalizing the results would be an effective decline in the rate of aquisition.

[DeltaElite]

Ok, you convinced me. The 10mm is dead.

Anybody wanna buy two Deltas and two Glocks. :neener:

[agtman]

"I find most mags RARELY give reviewed guns bad reviews."

:rolleyes:

Who cares? No one - except you - was talking about gun rag reviews of guns.

The article cited was not a gun "review." It was specifically about reported sales increases in guns and ammo of a certain caliber - 10mm Auto. And not a particularly popular caliber these days with gun rags or their writers, which only makes it more eye-opening that the article was even published.

"Statistics about increasing sales of 10mm's are invalid UNLESS they are normalized against industry sales in general."

:scrutiny: Here's a clue: Selling more 10mm guns this year than you sold last year counts as an increase, ... except, apparently, in the semi-oxygenated air of community-college economics.

More to the point, your verifiable statistical documentation to the contrary about 10mm sales data is ....... where? :rolleyes:

[tetchaje1]

Statistics about increasing sales of 10mm's are invalid UNLESS they are normalized against industry sales in general. If 9mms, .45s, .40s, and everything else is ALSO increasing (but at a faster rate than previous industry stats it would indicate a general increase in arms sales), normalizing the results would be an effective decline in the rate of aquisition.

This just isn't true.

Gun sales in general have been dropping for years -- in all calibers, though I will say that the .40, .45, and 9mm are the most successful calibers out there in the sea of declining firearms sales.

OK, so there is a general decline in overall sales of firearms, but an increase in the sales of 10mm pistols and ammunition. This would indicate that the interest in the 10mm is even at a greater rate of increase than previously suspected, and that it is growing steadily in its (albeit currently small) market share in the calibers.

Better sell off all of my wildcat, dead-cartridge chambered guns... :uhoh:



;)

[Beren]

My S&W 1076 is the backbone of my growing pistol collection. While ammo is more expensive than for my 9mm handguns, it's great fun to shoot, reliable, and the most accurate pistol I have ever shot. I shoot it better than the Kimber target pistol .45's that I've handled.

Everyone needs at least one 10mm handgun. The Glock 20 is a great first choice, as is a S&W 1076 or Glock 29. I'm not a huge fan of the Delta Elite, but then, I've never shot one, either.

[NordicG3K]

I think we're getting a little off track here. The fact is is that the 10mm Auto cartridge is a very versitle cartridge and covers more "territory" than just about any other cartridge.

The 9mm gives you increased capacity and controllability, but at the cost of stopping power.

The .357 Sig gives you near .357 Mag performance in an autoloader, but is limited in bullet weight.

The .40 S&W is an excellent "compromise" cartridge in that it gives you higher capacity than a .45 but better stopping power than the 9mm. It, like the 10mm, can handle a range of bullet weights but it has its limits in terms of power.

The .45 has been around for a long time and throws a big bullet, but low velocities limit it's power, especially at longer ranges.

The 10mm can use bullets ranging from 135 to 220gns and can be found in soft shooting FBI "Lite" loadings or full-power form such as Texas Ammo's 200gn XTP @ 1250fps. This is what makes it such a great cartridge. Not many guns can serve as both an "in town" CCW gun as well as provide you with suitable protection in the woods. Additionally many use it for hunting deer and smaller game animals. None of this has anything to do with how popular the cartridge is at the local gunstore or how much 10mm ammo they stock on their shelves.

[redneck2]

about visiting GlockTalk and go into the 10-Ring forum

search for posts by McNett. He gets the 10 crankin'

There was just a post by a GT'er that hog hunted with his 10. Total pass thru on a 300# rooter

[Admiral Thrawn]

mmmm, as a fairly inexperienced shooter, I have to say that I would definately not use 10mm Auto as my own choice of defensive round, simply because of the "snappy" way it discharges, and the flash/bang that goes with it. Also, you've got added weight and reduced magazine capacity.

I'd rather go with .45ACP if I was going for an every day carry self-defence round.

[NordicG3K]

mmmm, as a fairly inexperienced shooter, I have to say that I would definately not use 10mm Auto as my own choice of defensive round, simply because of the "snappy" way it discharges, and the flash/bang that goes with it.

If this is an issue the answer is called practice.

Also, you've got added weight and reduced magazine capacity. I'd rather go with .45ACP if I was going for an every day carry self-defence round.

I'm a little confused here. You list added weight and reduced magazine capacities as limitations and then go on to say you'd prefer the .45 for carry. Being that 10mms and .45s are built on the same size frame (Glock 20/21, S&W 1006/4506, Colt 1911 GM/Delta, etc.) I don't see how the .45 would address these particular shortcomings. (Personally I don't feel these are problems in the first place.)

[tetchaje1]

Actually 10mm results in an increase in capacity...


9+1 instead of 8+1... :cool:

[Fatcat]

Well, the .44 mag is more powerful, and the 9mm holds more rounds. :p

I like the 10mm, it seems to be a great choice for all around defense use - though it is still a bit expensive to shoot. Availability of guns seems to be a tad small, you either have the gigantic, brick-like guns, or the 1911 frame, which I question it's ability to hold up to many "hot" 10mm loads (IE: What the 10mm is supposed to be loaded at). I'll wait until Ruger comes out with a 10mm (P100 anyone? :D ).

[BigG]

Love my Delta Gold Cup. :cool:

[cratz2]

The real question is why do so many people hang onto the 45acp when the 10mm is such a better round?

This is very much not in line with the thinking of the vast majority of gun owners... Are we all idiots because we haven't got rid of our 243s, 257s, 270s, 30-06s in favor of the 577 Tyranosaur (or 458 Lott for those that prefer smaller bores?

All the gun owners I know like variety. A small bore rifle or two usually a 223 and 22-250 or 220. Then a 243 or 6mm, 257 Roberts or 25-06 (or both!), 270 Winchester or 7mm Rem Mag(or both), a 30-06 or 308 and a 30-30, a 45-70, maybe a 44 Mag lever gun etc...

Why should one shun the 45 ACP purely in favor of the 10mm? It's a great and obviously very versatile round, esp for the handloader but very very few will ever be able to shoot the 10mm as quickly and accurately as the 45 ACP. While it might make a near ideal single cartridge choice for a handloader that wishes to use it for target, hunting medium game and defensive purposes, to a casual shooter it is something of a lost cartridge. There are those that tout it as being more powerful than the 40 S&W which means it needs to be loaded hotter for this argument to stand. If it is loaded hot, then overpenetration MUST be a consideration. If it is down loaded to 40 S&W levels, then there is a lot of wasted case space and the grip may be too large for some shooters.

I just can't see how or why so many of us get all up in arms (pardon the pun :D ) over cartridge selection. The 9mm, 357 SIG, 38 Super, 9x23, 40 S&W, 10mm and 45ACP are all viable defense calibers though I tend to prefer the 45 ACP over the others. But to say that the 45 ACP is an inferior round to the 10mm purely because the 10mm is 'such a better round' is the same as saying the 30--06 is inferior to the 300 Win Mag. If the 30-06 will kill what you want to kill at a given distance and you can hit accurately with it, then the 30-06 is exactly as effective of a round and the 300 Win Mag is actually inferior due to the shooter needing to work harder to get the same level of performance out of it.

:confused:

[Tom C.]

I have to confess that I became interested in the 10mm over 20 yrs ago when I was still flying. As a military pilot in fighter aircraft, you are very limited in what you can carry and expect to retain following an ejection. The standard issue gun was a Model 10 S&W .38. Options included 9mm and .45 ACP. I thought then, and still think, that the 10mm would be a great survival gun for aircrew. Power of a .45, flat trajectory of the 9. Since I no longer fly, this isn't an issue for me any longer. But I do have several 10mm guns: S&W 1006, Colt Delta and Glock 20. Except for the blocky grip, the Glock is probably the best for survival purposes. Mine is certainly accurate enough with both lead and jacketed bullets. I am not looking to sell any of mine at the moment. I would like to see it make a comeback.

[tex_n_cal]

It is an interesting, versatile cartridge.

I have loaded for the .400 Corbon, and it demands GREAT caution with handloads, lest one's case swallow a bullet in feeding, and make a big noise in the wrong direction:what:

Being a straight case, the 10mm is easy to handload, and very versatile. Just be careful with the idea that the 10mm is "dumbed down" in power from the major factories. I did load mine to 1400 fps with 155's - and got cases bulged over the feedramp, threatening a kB:what:

Unless I have a ramped barrel with case support, a Smith model 610, or a Contender, I will be satisfied with 1300 fps for 155's. That still makes it a 9 shot .357 magnum, and that's hardly a bad thing :D

[tex_n_cal]

Oh yeah, just to whet your appetite...

[Boats]

Well I have fired about 300 rounds through a Delta Elite I almost bought off of a friend who wanted to raise funds for some nuclear Casull revo. I almost bought it, but in the end I declined. I am a dedicated .45ACP shooter. Though I can readily fire the 10mm with no ill effects, I did not like its recoil and recovery characteristics as much as those of my .45 ACPs, even the Officer's which simply seem to push my hands back rather than attempt to climb out of my hands like the 10mm seemed to want to do. That plus the limited capacity gain in the Delta made my answer a "no thanks."

Still, I find myself intrigued by the 10mm, not so much as a replacement for the .45ACP, but for the 9mm/.40 S&W. I sometimes think pretty long about buying a high-cap Caspian frame or something and getting someone to do a conversion on it. I like the concept of the Glock 20 and its 15+1 rounds of downrange fury in only a slightly larger package than the G17, but alas, I hate the ergos of the Glock so much that I will never buy one as currently made.

If the full-cap/high-cap ban sunsets, my 10mm hunt is on.

[vertigo7]

Another 10mm advocacy article (http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/10/10mm-advoc.htm).

Just picked up my new Para-Ordnance P-16 from my FFL, bought specifically to convert to 10mm. Happiness is 16rd mags of 10mm in your carry gun.

vertigo7

[SodaPop]

My favorite Glock is the G20.

[Boats]

I have never seriously looked into converting a Para. What is involved? What mags do you use? Why does it work and how well? Shok-buffs required?

[vertigo7]

Boats, I sent you a PM with the details and a few links to other information.

Anyone else interested, start with this thread: 10mm options (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4903)

vertigo7

[Kahr carrier]

Nope I like 10MM especially the Dan Wesson.:D

[Admiral Thrawn]

Guys, thanks for clarifying that about the size of the 10mm Auto.

I was saying i'd prefer a .45ACP for carry over a 10mm Auto because I simply prefer the way it fires and feel more comfortable with it. It seems to be a better balanced round and discharges quite smoothly. It also has the benefit of firing a very large round.

But hey, that's just me. :)

[tetchaje1]

To each their own, Admiral Thrawn. The 45ACP is a fine cartridge -- I have one myself.

Only thing that I find curious, though, is how you can shoot with the draconian gun laws in Australia... :confused:

[Admiral Thrawn]

Currently, all handguns are legal here in Australia.

The laws passed in 1996 and put into effect in 1997 prohibited all full-auto and semi-auto SMGs, rifles and shotguns.

At the moment, we also don't have any restrictions on our magazine capacities like you guys.

Unfortunately, the moron politicians are wanting to implement new and useless gun buyback schemes for handguns aswell this year...

but unlike the last time, the gun store owners are not going to go quietly into the night... this time, they're going to demand compensation for loss of income and try to make the government's latest hairbrained idea unaffordable.

Anyway, that's the way things are here in Aus.

[twoblink]

And the main reason that I want one is because I don't have one.

That is good enough reason!!

The 10mm has great ballistics, if you reload, even better bargain.. Do it.

Then get an MP5/10, an MP5 that takes 10mm rounds; and you'll be SERIOUSLY TACTICAL :D

[LITTLE_BILL]

It seems to me that there are a few here that have a very fine tuned knowledge of ballistics, and everyone seems to like to talk stats...so lets talk stats! I have read numerous times in this thread of how the 10mm "almost" equals the energy of a .45ACP. I have also read some sadly misguided or uninformed opinions in regards to how the terminal performance of the .45ACP exceeds that of the 10mm. So, I come offering more stats...but first, just in case my word and my research isn't good enough for some...just take a look at the cavity comparisons of ALL modern, yet common handgun rounds side by side in ballistic gelatin. Anyone care to guess which round leaves not only the largest, longest, and ugliest permanent cavity, but also by far the most devastating temporary cavity?...Yup, that one goes to the 10mm.

Okay, now for the numbers people like so much:

.45ACP - 339 different rounds tested and recorded
10mm - 91 different rounds tested and recorded (not quite as many of these out there)

MUZZLE VELOCITY:
.45ACP (AVG F.P.S. OF 339 ROUNDS) = 835 (WOW, THAT'S SUB-SONIC IN THE RIGHT AREAS)

10mm (AVG F.P.S. OF 91 ROUNDS) = 1200

MUZZLE ENERGY:
(THIS IS THE ONE THAT MIGHT BE A SHOCKER FOR THE ".45 IS MORE POWERFUL" FOLLOWERS)

.45ACP (AVG FT-LBS OF 339 ROUNDS) = 356

10mm (AVG FT-LBS OF 91 ROUNDS) = 636 (ALMOST DOUBLE THAT OF THE "MORE POWERFUL" .45ACP, AND THE .45 HAD THE HOME FIELD ADVANTAGE WITH NEARLY 4 TIMES AS MANY TEST SUBJECTS...THAT MEANS NEARLY ALL .45ACP ROUNDS HAVE A SUBSTANTIALLY LOWER MUZZLE ENERGY THAT THAT OF THE 10mm)

AVERAGE BULLET WEIGHT:

.45ACP (AVG GR. OF 339 ROUNDS) = 230

10mm (AVG GR. OF 91 ROUNDS) = 200


AVERAGE CASE CAPACITY:

.45ACP (AVG GR. OF 339 ROUNDS) = 28

10mm (AVG F.P.S. OF 91 ROUNDS) = 25 (HEY LOOK MA, MY 10mm DOES IT BETTER, AND DOES IT WITH LESS POOP!!!)


SO, MY FELLOW SHOOTERS, IF YOUR MATH SKILLS ARE STARTING TO SLACK(MINE CONSTANTLY NEEDS POLISHING)...THE 10mm NUMBERS WIN IN ALL CATEGORIES WITH ONLY A FORTH OF THE USABLE COMPARISONS. WHAT THAT MEANS IS IF THERE IS JUST ONE BAD APPLE, THE ONE WITH THE FEWER TEST SUBJECTS SEES A GREATER IMPACT ON THE AVERAGE. THE GOOD OL' .45ACP HAD 339 AND STILL CAME OUT THE UNDISPUTED LOSER. MUST BE HARD TO IMAGINE, BUT YES THAT MEANS NEARLY EVERY SINGLE .45ACP ROUND AVAILABLE OFF THE SHELF IS SLOW AND WEAK WHEN COMPARED TO THE 10mm.

NOW DON'T GET ME WRONG...I LOVE THE .45. NOT ONLY ARE THERE MANY ROUNDS AVAILABLE, BUT IT'S ALSO LESS EXPENSIVE, MORE CHOICES FOR FINE TUNING TO "YOUR" SHOOTING LIKES(AND THAT OF YOUR GUN). AND IT'S ALWAYS A PLUS TO SHOOT A "MILITARY" ROUND IF YOU LIKE TO BUY IN BULK!!! THE THING IS, JUST CAUSE THE MONSTER JUMPS, DOESN'T MEAN IT BITES HARD. DAMN THE PERCEIVED RECOIL...IT'S SUCH A LIAR!

[Kimber1911_06238]

10mm's are a hoot! and since you reload, you can make mild or wild loads to suit all your needs. Thumbs up from me, buy one (or several)!!!

[Lucas_Y]

A 10mm handgun is very very high on my list of things to get. A true powerhouse.

[Charles S]

.the other is almost the equivalent of the 41 mag, not quite, but almost

Just so we are clear on this...I own both, a 10mm is the equivalent of a very hot 357 mag. It will not and cannot come close to what a 41 mag can do.

The hottest 10mm stuff available exceeds 700 foot pounds of energy but cannot exceed 800 foot pounds.

The 41 mag can easily exceed 1000 foot pounds and can do so with bullets of greater than 250 grains. The 10mm cannot approach that level of power or that sectional density.

The 10mm is a great cartridge, but it is not in the same power category as a 41 Rem Mag.

[LITTLE_BILL]

Okay, So The Nuke Was Added...but The Rest Was Real

[LITTLE_BILL]

Hands down, the .41 MAG is one of the elite. But come on, man...that's cheating and you know it. Here we are debating our plinkers and you gotta roll up in a tank!!! In all fairness, the round's name includes "MAG", and that's just not fair...LOL. Take that Harley to the bike run...this is a BMX convention! Damn, guess I need to look into that round. I've never fired one, but it sure sounds like I hear one begging for my undivided attention!! Thanks for the numbers...

[Ford]

Here is my only problem with the 10mm.
Ammo availability.
If I was out of ammo it was darn near impossible to find any in my area. I ordered in bulk on line but sometimes would be out.
Also I sold my DW Razorback to get the 6" longslide 10mm. SOmewhere in between me placing the order DW decided they where not going to manufacture the 6" anymore so I have been without a 10mm for a while now.

[LITTLE_BILL]

YES INDEED, THAT IS AN ISSUE IN MY AREA AS WELL. NOT EVEN THE LOCAL SPORTING GOODS STORES CARRY 10mm ROUNDS, AND IF THEY DO IT'S CCI BLAZER, WHICH IS OKAY FOR PLINKING BUT YOU CANNOT RELOAD THOSE ALUMINUM CASINGS. I USUALLY ORDER MY SELF DEFENSE ROUNDS FROM A TINY LITTLE OUTFIT CALLED ALABAMA AMMO. I'LL TRY TO FIND THE INFO, AND POST IT FOR ANYONE INTERESTED. I THINK IT'S PROBABLY JUST SOME GOOD OL' BOY RELOADING, BUT THE QUALITY IS UNBEATABLE, THEY SEEM TO BE A FAIRLY HOT LOAD AND THE PROJECTILE (I'D BE LYING IF I PRETENDED TO REMEMBER THE BRAND OR SIZE) IS JUST AMAZING. I'M SURE IT WON'T BE A PERFECT MATCH FOR EVERYONE'S SHOOTING PREFERENCES, OR THEIR GUNS PREFERENCES FOR THAT MATTER, BUT THEY WORK REALLY RATHER WELL IN MY 2nd GEN GLOCK 29. I'LL TRY AND DIG ALL THAT STUFF UP AND POST IT...

[Dgindlesperger]

10mm is a great round !!!!!!!!

[Charles S]

Damn, guess I need to look into that round. I've never fired one, but it sure sounds like I hear one begging for my undivided attention!!

No.....if you start down that road then you will be stuck in a group of die hard 41 mag fans who refuse to let the cartridge die. After all anything the 41 can do the 44 can do also.

Except once you start shooting one you will realize that is does it with less recoil, less blast, and almost as much power with bullets of adequate sectional density. I love mine they are accurate, powerful, and fun to shoot. Just not cheap to shoot.

That is the real downside of the 10 mm in my opinion. Even though I am having a 1911 10mm upper built now.

[the pistolero]

Just not cheap to shoot.

That is the real downside of the 10 mm in my opinion.
That is true, but reloading can help that a LOT. I was telling someone just yesterday that even with premium defensive bullets (I suppose you could call the Hornady XTPs that), I had cut my costs for shooting 10mm almost in half. It's even better than that with just plinking stuff if you order it in bulk.
Say, Charles, whereabouts in Northeast Texas are you from? I grew up in Texarkana...

[Charles S]

I live in Texarkana...,but (don't tell anyone) I am orgianlly form North West Louisiana.

[Crunker1337]

I have heard that it's very easy thing to convert a 10mm to .40S&W, so if someone can confirm that that would be nice. I know for a fact that there GLOCK 20 10mm to .40S&W conversion kits.
(For that matter, it's also possible to convert a GLOCK 21 to 10mm. Guys on 10mmtalk.com (great 10mm forum BTW) and Glocktalk, however, give inconsistent reviews. Some people are able to convert and get normal GLOCK reliability, others find it quite a tempermental pistol.)

The numbers speak for themselves, 10mm is a great, powerful round. Only disadvantages are: ammo price, large GLOCK grips (easily fixed), and recoil.

[LITTLE_BILL]

I'VE NEVER PERSONALLY USED ANY TYPE OF CONVERSION KIT, SO I WON'T ACT LIKE I KNOW ANYTHING WHATSOEVER ABOUT THEM, BUT THE FACT THAT THE .40 AND THE 10mm ARE SO CLOSE (OTHER THAN THE LENGTH OF CASING) WOULD THROW UP A CAUTION FLAG FOR ME. THERE IS A EVER SO SLIGHT DIFFERENCE IN THE DIAMETER OF THE CASING (I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT AREA OF THE CASING, OR PERHAPS THE ENTIRE CASING?), A MATTER OF ONLY A COUPLE OF THOUSANDTHS OF AN INCH AT MOST. I WISH I COULD REMEMBER THE ARTICLE I WAS READING ON THIS SUBJECT (HAVE READ MANY) BECAUSE IT POINTED OUT SOME THINGS THAT PROBABLY THE MOST DILIGENT SHOOTER COULD OVERLOOK. THE ARTICLE TALKED, IN DETAIL, ABOUT THAT MINOR DIFFERENCE IN DIAMETER AND THE SIGNIFICANCE BEHIND IT...(SOMEONE HELP ME OUT HERE). BUT, THEN AGAIN...THAT WAS AN ARTICLE ON SHOOTING THE .40 IN A 10mm WITHOUT A CONVERSION KIT. PERSONALLY, I THINK BOTH ROUNDS ARE GREAT, AND THEY BOTH COULD SERVE DIFFERENT PURPOSES. FOR ME, MY DEDICATION TO THE 10mm COMES PURELY FROM THE COMFORT IT HAS GIVEN ME AS MY CONCEALED CARRY. I'VE CARRIED MANY DIFFERENT HANDGUNS, AND MANY OF THEM WERE ACTUALLY MORE COMFORTABLE TO SHOOT OR CARRY...OR EASIER TO CONCEAL, BUT THE FIRST TIME I SHOT MY GLOCK 29 IT LITERALLY BECAME AN INSTANTLY SIGNIFICANT PART OF MY CONSCIOUS. SO, YES...I GUESS I'M BIAS, AND CANNOT REALLY EXPLAIN WHY. THE FACT OF THE MATTER IN THE END IS, IF IT GOES BANG...I'LL PROBABLY LIKE IT TOO MUCH AND THEN THERE GOES ANOTHER PAYCHECK IN LESS THAN AN HOUR!!!

[LITTLE_BILL]

Guess I kinda got off course...sorry!

Umm, I cannot confirm the matter at hand, Cruncker! Do not know enough about altering the necessary components to give you an informed opinion!

[Myself]

Much as I love the 10mm I feel I should point out that this thread is 4 1/2 years old. :rolleyes:

[astocks2622]

I just got a Tanfoglio (imported by EAA) Witness in 10 MM mostly for backwoods defense and as a finisher for those unfortunate times when I don't achieve 1-shot-1-kill while hunting. It seems to shoot like a dream. It's desigend off of the CZ 75, and therefore has the slide in frame, rather than the slide on frame. I think this helped the recoil by placing the barrell lower and closer to centerline. I would like some advice on a good, heavy load for the rather larger animals that roam the woods of the Nortwest. do you go with a 200gr FMJ for penetration, or for a lighter, faster JHP? I just need to know what simply works.

[zeroskillz]

crap... I suddenly feel myself desiring a 10mm

[zeroskillz]

oh and I just saw that this is 4.5 years old, who revived it and how?:p

[Charles S]

oh and I just saw that this is 4.5 years old, who revived it and how?

The answer you seek is: LITTLE_BILL

[LITTLE_BILL]

OKAY, I CONFESS...IT WAS ME!!

BUT, UMM..THE DEVIL MADE ME DO IT!:evil:

SORRY, I'M NEW AND DIDN'T THINK TO SEE IF THIS WAS AN OLD OR CLOSED THREAD...MAYBE EVERYONE COULD JUST TURN THEIR HEADS AND WE'LL PRETEND THIS NEVER HAPPENED!

[the pistolero]

OKAY, I CONFESS...IT WAS ME!!
It's fine, really, but lose the all caps.

Charles, what 10mm pistols do you have? I have a Kimber Stainless Target II and will be adding a Dan Wesson Razorback to my stable in a few months.

[Beagle-zebub]

I looked at the data on the Hodgdon website, and it didn't seem like there was much of a performance advantage over .40 S&W. I kept going back and forth between the data on the two cartridges, and the numbers didn't get any more different. What's up with that? (Not a rhetorical question.)

[Charles S]

Charles, what 10mm pistols do you have?

S&W 610 (my favorite) and a S&W 1076. I am currently having a 10mm upper built for a full size from of a 1911.

What's up with that?

Liability and very conservative loading data.

With the right loads the 10 mm can easily push a 180 gr bullet to 1300 FPS or a 200 gr bullet to 1250 fps a 40 S&W will not come close to those numbers in those bullet weights.

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=36

http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=40

[the pistolero]

I am currently having a 10mm upper built for a full size from of a 1911.
Nice. I'd like to do that one day, but I have a few other guns I'd like to get first.
As for handloads, so far I've only been working with 155-grain Hornady XTPs and AA #9 but have gotten very good results with it so far. Everyone says 800X is the best powder for the 10 but that it doesn't meter well at all, and I am still a newcomer to reloading, so I figured I'd get something that did meter well at first -- and AA9 delivers on that front as well.

[jkingrph]

I have one of the earlier 1911's in 10mm. Actually a Cold Delta Gold Cup, stainless which I tricked out with a beavertail safety, extended slide stop & safety, full length guide rod and cocobolo grips with a King's gun works medallion insert( same as my last name) I also have a 45 in the same configuration, but the 10mm is the most accurate centerfire handgun I have.

At one time in the early '90s I got some factory ammo, cannot remembet the brand, that was too hot. It actually bulged and sometimes split cases just in front of the web. I fired a few rounds and dumped the rest, and have reloaded for it since that happened. I stay away from the hot loads, as I had heard somewhere the frame could be battered, but everything is plenty stout for me. Recoil is not an issue, the grip size and frame handle it well.

[Triple S]

What do you guys think about a G-20 loaded with 200-230 grain WFN's form Double Tap as a backup (side arm) in Bear Country (say lower 48-only)?

[Scorpiusdeus]

I've heard rumors that Bruce Gray is trying to make a 10Mm conversion out of the Sig P220. Any one heard how that's coming along?

I don't do Glocks. They just don't feel right, and the S&W 10mm are hard to find here in CA and maybe not even "approved".

[ozwyn]

I have heard of 10mm used in lower 48 bear country, seems like it should be ok.

Aside from glock, you may want to try a witness or a kimber

[LITTLE_BILL]

Before I bought mine...I couldn't stand shooting the glocks. Just like you said, "they just didn't feel right". Then, by chance, I came across a good deal on a New In Box G29. For some reason, The 29 felt so much different...not sure why, but it did. My brother has a couple of glocks. The 17 & the 20, if I remember right, and i still don't like those, but I absolutely love mine. I'm also looking into getting another one or two that fire the same cartridge, as i've become fond of the 10mm round. Guess I'll have to do some shopping. you know, isn't it funny how picky we avid shooters are about buying guns??? every time my wife points this out...all I have to do is nod toward the PILE of shoes in the closet!!!!:cuss:

[Rexster]

I have not read all of the responding posts, so I am responding only to the original post. I carried a G29 for a while, and liked it very much. I got into a situation of having to liquidate some guns, however, so it went away. Mine had been purchased pre-owned, and it had aftermarket sights that were not my cup of tea, so I decided I would not miss it so much, and could always get another. I kept the accessories, and a cache of 10mm ammo, in anticipation of another G29, when the time is right. They are good, size/power-efficient little pistols.

[the pistolero]

I must admit I'd be a little leery of the shorter-barreled 10mm pistols, if only because of the corresponding velocity loss and increased recoil. I'd think a Glock 20 or Dan Wesson Commander Classic Bobtail would be a good CCW choice, though.

[astocks2622]

Quote: I've heard rumors that Bruce Gray is trying to make a 10Mm conversion out of the Sig P220. Any one heard how that's coming along?

I don't do Glocks. They just don't feel right, and the S&W 10mm are hard to find here in CA and maybe not even "approved".

I would ditto the witness comment. I recently got my 10mm and found the recoil to be much tamer and controllable than the glock 29. (not to mention much cheaper)
just my two cents.

[hankdatank1362]

I'd go so far as to say that it is the best auto handgun cartridge avaiable today. Since you handload, ammo cost won't be bad at all.

I don't know if someone said it already, but if you life the GLOCK 20, I'd be thinking about getting an aftermarket barrel... something with a fully supported chamber. Just for peace of mind.

[Dgindlesperger]

the 220 to 10mm conversion would be interesting as the shell itself is longer. So what would be need to make sure Mag fits the frame :eek:

[Jimmy Newman]

It was my understanding that 10mm and .45 ACP both had a 1.250" OAL specification - is this not the case?

[JohnL2]

My 10mm is good. I like it a lot. Maybe overpowered for home defense though. But with right loadings you can adjust for that.

[mpmarty]

max length for the 10mm is 1.260.

[TNT.45]

10mm are here to stay. Ammo is $250-$300 per 1,000. Thats on par with .45 and .357 sig. So dont let people talk you out of owning one.

I think it will continue to gain popularity in the States as people learn about its benifits. The C model Glocks are nice as well as the S&W models.

[Northalius]

Hankdatank,

I believe Glock has made their gen. 3 Glock barrels more supported than the gen. 1 and 2 barrels. At least someone saw a difference in their Glock 23. I'm sure I've read someone saying the same about their G20 (10mm). Will have to look around GlockTalk.com and see, I guess.

-

TNT.45,

Yeah, I checked out the bulk packs for 10mm at Georgia Arms, and saw $137 for a pack 500 10mm rounds. Around $274 for 1000 rounds!

I'm getting myself a Glock 20 for CCW. I'll get the Glock 29 after that, for backup. ;)

-

LITTLE BILL,

Nice posts! The 10mm is truly impressive, and it seems to only be growing more in the U.S., thankfully! This'll hopefully bring down the price of 10mm ammo, even though it's not TOO bad right now! :)

You know a round is good for self defense, when it's also used for medium sized game hunting! :)

Yes, this seems to be an old thread, but people happen upon it from time to time, by finding it through the search engine, and want to reply! Like myself, for instance! ;)

I'm guessing the same reason for you commenting so late, BILL?

[Dihappy]

Everyone needs at least one 10mm handgun. The Glock 20 is a great first choice, as is a S&W 1076 or Glock 29. I'm not a huge fan of the Delta Elite, but then, I've never shot one, either.

No thanks, I dont like "blocks" and dont need a 10mm for self defense or otherwise.

[Dihappy]

about visiting GlockTalk and go into the 10-Ring forum

search for posts by McNett. He gets the 10 crankin'

There was just a post by a GT'er that hog hunted with his 10. Total pass thru on a 300# rooter

No one will ever be happy with energy and speed it seems. Ammunition makers have labored hours trying to develope a bullet with the right combination of power and expansion to NOT pass thru.

:( Oh well.

[rockinrussky]

I just shot my friend's G20 at the range yesterday, it was quite fun. The round was exceptionally accurate and the recoil really wasn't bad at all. IMO the G20 itself is not very practical for conceal and carry but would be great as home defense/hunting. If only glock came out with a compact frame for the 10 ;)

[aka108]

If you want a 10mm, get it. If you reload don't worry about ammo costs since the cost per round of most stuff doesn't vary by 2 cents out of the press.

[LegalAlien]

take a look at a metric tape measure . . . . how much is 1mm . . . ask yourself . . . is it worth it for so little more???

9mm is generally available - price is great for practice - 1mm extra is not going to make that much of a difference if the BG is hit in the right spot. 1mm extra is not going to make that much difference in stopping power

[ThieF]

:rolleyes:..........wow.........I don't know what to say to that

maybe someone else can straigten this guy out

[Dilbert]

That is really a narrow view of guns and bullets.

[Nomad101bc]

I think you should become a .40 S&W fan like myself. Its a magical compromise with better velocity and the same knock down power of a .45 . The only better rounds are those that are too powerful for auto loaders and thus not too practical for CC.

[newkahrman]

I am pretty sure that 10mm is virtually the same as .40 cal. If you put the two side by side I could see loading the wrong one. 10mm is becoming less and less common which usually means more money. I like 9mm myself but i like to shoot alot and 9mm is dirt cheap (about 15.00 for a box of 100 at wal-mart)

[davepool]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

take a look at a metric tape measure . . . . how much is 1mm . . . ask yourself . . . is it worth it for so little more???


It's not the size of the bullet, it's the ballistics.....115 grain 9mm- 1100fps;390ft lbs energy.....180 grain 10mm- 1150 fps; 550ft lbs energy; and then there's Doubletap 10mm ammo 165 grain- 1400 fps; 725ft lbs of energy.. and the 40S&W is just a shortened down loaded 10mm

actually 10mm is gaining popularity for the reasons i've given...better ballistics

[mightyike]

All good ammo is expensive.

My G20 is about my favorite...but I like my other DOA calibers: 9X23mm Winchester, 38 super and 357 sig (all dead I guess).

Start with a G-20 (Used to be Glockmeister's [Mesa, AZ] favorite caliber/gun)

It's a great caliber, but then again, I like another dead one, 41 magnum.

[sammy]

Here is a pict from the Shot Show. The Delta Elite is back!!!

72399

[nitesite]

I think the 10mm cartridge, and particularly the Glock 29, is a truly fantastic platform. But I'm not against carrying 9mm or .45 ACP either.

Heck, they're all handguns. No "magic bullet" exists when it comes to your sidearm.

[Socrates]

10mm is nice, but, it sort of starts running out of case capacity when the bullets go over 170 grains or so. 45 ACP, or better Super, is really nice, because some of us feel 230 grain HP's are sort of the minimum for SD use. Faster you push them, sooner they open up, so it's hard to get adequate penetration with lighter bullets, same with the 10MM.

Now if we can get 260 grain 45 cal bullets, at 950 fps, we'll pretty much equal the 45 Colt. What progress...:rolleyes:

[Nomad101bc]

Id say just the opposite the slower heavier projectiles tend to penetrate less. 40 S&W is the one notorius for deep penetration along with its big brother the 10mm.

[EMT40SW]

Actually in all my trauma training we are more concerned about velocity that mass. Both are important but we square velocity times .25 mass to get kinetic energy. The exception is knife wounds which can be more deadly longterm speaking that gunshot wounds.

That looks like this for you scientific guys:
KE = 1/2 M V2

KE is kenetic energy
M is velocity
V is velocity

[The_woodsman]

O.K. DON'T buy that 10MM. You don't need to spend the money on another gun. Instead, pick a couple friends on THR and let THEM spend the money and you just go to the range and shoot theirs. :-)

[Socrates]

Id say just the opposite the slower heavier projectiles tend to penetrate less. 40 S&W is the one notorius for deep penetration along with its big brother the 10mm.

From Double Taps ammo tests:
DoubleTap .40 S&W Penetration / expansion
135gr. Nosler JHP @ 1375fps - 12.10" / .72"
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1275fps - 13.00" / .76"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1200fps - 14.0" / .70"
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1100fps - 14.75" / .68"
200gr XTP @ 1050fps - 17.75" / .59"

DoubleTap 10mm
135gr JHP @ 1600fps - 11.0" / .70" frag nasty
155gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1475fps - 13.5" / .88"
165gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1400fps - 14.25" / 1.02"
165gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1425fps - 14.75" / .82"
180gr Golden Saber JHP @ 1330fps - 16.0" / .85"
180gr XTP @ 1350fps – 17.25” / .77”
180gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1300fps - 15.25" / .96"
200gr XTP @ 1250fps - 19.5" / .72"
230gr Equalizer @ 1040fps - 11.0" and 17.0" / .62" and .40"

DoubleTap .45ACP
185gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1225fps - 12.75" / .82"
200gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1125fps - 14.25" / .88"
230gr Gold Dot JHP @ 1010fps - 15.25" / .95"



???????????

[appalachainamerican]

I have owned a delta elite now for about 15 years, have yet to fire it. it is one of the few guns i own that i havent fired. think i'll just continue to collect this one. have three 45 auto's, one 40's production colt, one 1991 a1, and an officers model. love the shoot all of these.

[customizedcreationz]

Glock 29 and I love it. Small and makes a good bang. Not that bad on recoil, but you know you are shooting something with some balls. I am not sure about accuracy compared to my Sigs, but it does make a strange huge hole in the paper targets like nothing else.
:D

[customizedcreationz]

http://texassmallarmsresearch.com/Info/FBI-10mm/FBI-10mm.pdf

[jfh]

I dunno if the 10mm is really undergoing a revival, but it's a cinch there are more 10s available now, over the last year or two. There's even a thread on the Bren Ten being revived.

You can read about my experiences with a Kimber STII 10mm and the EAA Witness Elite Match 10 mm here (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=331213).

Jim H.

[Grizzly Adams]

I've always liked the 10. Just never got around to buying one. But then I'm also a 41 Mag fan, which I do own. Go for it, I envy you.

[Brian Williams]

Dreged thread, should be in autoloaders anyway
A 10 would be great in a 5 shot L frame.

[.357 magnum]

The Main reason I do not like the 10mm, is it has become the odd man out caliber. Self defense ammo is expensive and less choices. Honestly looking at the research, the .40 and .45 are a little better stoppers anyway. I am a big .45 fan, all of my .45's are Hi-Cap Mags 12 and 13 rounds. So Mag Capacity is not an issue. I am actually starting too lean towards the .40 because practice ammo is so much cheaper and I do not reload. Ammo choices for the .40 are very good now, because it has become THE Law Enforcement round. A lot of SWAT teams and Special forces lean towards the .45 for a side arm. I do own several 9mm's and in all honesty I would choose 9mm over the 10mm because the choice of guns is so much better and ammo is less expensive and ammo choices are Excellent. Also the 9mm has become a real very good stopper because of Modern Bullet Technology. So as you can see I rank the .45 and .40 dead even as the Best to me and the 9mm a close second. I would even put the .357 Sig ahead of the 10mm because of the choice of guns and ammo cost.

The Best to You and Yours!

Frank

[Northalius]

The 10mm round is extremely versatile! It's worth the money, imo. You can have rounds down to being as weak as the .40 S&W (Short & Weak), and a round more powerful than the .357 Magnum! Even approaching the power of the .41 Magnum!

DT has 10mm ammo that penetrates far, and expands wide (1.2 inches!)!

You can easily use the 10mm for self defense DEPENDING ON the grain and load you buy / make (a lot of 10mm ammo is watered down on the market, except DT's 10mm, it's hot!). Then use the hot loads from DT for hunting, taking down medium, and I'm reading about Ted Nugent taking down large game in Africa with his Glock 20! :)

Now, when you can actually put such versatility to the test, you'll soon see why it costs just a bit more (come on, not that much, like at Georgia-Arms.com... $13.70 for 50) to buy.

You can always start reloading, but make sure you buy an aftermarket barrel, since Glock barrels don't like lead bullets flying through them compared to others. Buy a 6" barrel for hunting long range, too!

I've asked around, and though I know it'll be a chore, it's not impossible: The Glock 20 is concealable! Just got to get the right holster, and clothes to fit. ;)

I'm willing to make the sacrifice! For 16 (15+1) rounds of 10mm in the Glock 20? How could I resist! :eek:

If only glock came out with a compact frame for the 10

I agree. I think GLOCK should've made a Compact 10mm first, and then Sub Compact (G29) later on. The current Sub Compact G29 is roughly as long as the Compact G23, G19, G32, etc., but it has a shorter grip; if they just lengthened it about 1/2 an inch to fit a few more bullets in (so it could carry maybe 3 more), I think it'd be more attactive than it is now. Though, I'm still buying the G29 after my G20, anyway. I always like backup, even if it has but 11 round (10 in magazine, 1 in chamber) capacity. ;)

[axeman_g]

Frank or anyone...

Can you post a reference to where the research you hint at exists. I have never seen any research like this.

And I am not being a smart rear end... I do want to see this research.