Confused about Saiga conversion


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Motodeficient
December 27, 2009, 05:21 PM
Can I take a 7.62x39 Saiga and add this magazine

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/surefire-saiga-762x39-30rd-polymer-magazine-p-140.html

and this stock

http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/saiga-t6-collapsible-intrafuse-stock-pistol-grip-tapco-p-339.html

without any real modding needing to be done to the gun, and still retain 922r compliance?

Whats the difference between this and a "converted" saiga?

Thanks for helping a n00b!!

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YaNi
December 27, 2009, 05:48 PM
They both should fit. I think you need to drill a hole to fasten the stock though. You will have to deal with 922R with either product, since both are made in the US. This is where most guys just drop the cash to make it compliant, then you can do whatever you want.

That stock will put the pistol grip farther back than the ak. It seems awkward to some people. The real AK has the front rivet of the trigger guard underneath the mag release. You can move the FCG forwards and then you can use an AK FCG, pistol grip, and stock. A feed ramp, and some filing of the mag well and you can get away from the $$ saiga mags and use real AK.

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 27, 2009, 05:50 PM
Convert it for real. You will spend the same money to do a real conversion. After doing the half ass one you will simply realize the trigger still sucks and the thing still doesn't balance right. The real conversion puts an actual pistol grip underneath the receiver where the gun balances properly. And the real conversion gives you an actual trigger, not the imported one that has transfer bar and sucks. The rtrigger alone is 5x better. A real conversion gets you a bullet guide for $26 and from there you buy $10-15 metal magazines. Otherwise with the half ass conversion you spend 30 a pop on mags. 8 real mags and a bullet guide $146. 8 saiga mags $240. Look at that savings. How do I know that stock sucks so much? I half assed one and less than 2 weeks later I had the real parts on order.

Motodeficient
December 27, 2009, 05:50 PM
Cool, thanks for the clarifcation

With the magazine and stock I linked to, it will be 922r compliant, correct? Thats what I am getting from reading the descriptions.


I looked into converting it, but it looked like a lot of drilling and modifications that I don't feel qualified to do.

Girodin
December 27, 2009, 06:40 PM
The short answer is yes a US made magazine such as that sure fire and a US made stock and pistol grip would have you at ten foreign countable parts and your gun would be compliant.

The long answer and a check list can be found below.
http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance

That said I will opine a little and tell you that you should skip that stock. That stock adds a pistol grip but none of the most important benefits of a PG conversion. When one does a conversion (use google to see exactly what this consists of and videos that demonstrate how easy it is) the gun gets a trigger that is vastly improved, the balance of the weapon is restored and one can use enough US parts to allow for the use of foreign steel mags which are probably better mags than US poly mags and definitely cheaper. My last point is a matter of opinion but that tapco stock just looks wrong. Guns with them on look really off. Honestly I do not see much advantage to adding
that stock. The only one I can think of is that w/ US mags you are 922r compliant but if that were I my end goal I would add a US made fore grip, its cheaper.

I looked into converting it, but it looked like a lot of drilling and modifications that I don't feel qualified to do.

It really is easy and doesn't require any particular skills. If you can turn a screw driver, fasten bolts, and drill a hole you have the skills required to do it. It really is a great first time gun project.

Sam1911
December 27, 2009, 06:44 PM
With the magazine and stock I linked to, it will be 922r compliant, correct? Thats what I am getting from reading the descriptions.

A magazine (mag body, mag floor plate, & mag follower) and a buttstock is four replacement parts. Four is the magic number you need to hit, so the actual answer to your question is "yes."

If you're certain that you'll be happy spending the money for this, admittedly half-a$$ed, conversion, then so be it. At least you're legal.

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 27, 2009, 07:22 PM
It really is easy and doesn't require any particular skills. If you can turn a screw driver, fasten bolts, and drill a hole you have the skills required to do it. It really is a great first time gun project.

Yes, yes it is.

He's adding a pistol grip too, Sam, so that makes it an additional 5 US made parts.

Sam1911
December 27, 2009, 07:39 PM
He's adding a pistol grip too, Sam, so that makes it an additional 5 US made parts.

Ok. I see what you're saying, sort of. I was assuming that as it isn't two separate items (a pistol grip AND a buttstock) that it would only count as one.

Then they add this note just to further muddy the waters:

Counts as (2) Sec. 922R Compliant Parts, but since the Saiga does not come with a buttstock this will only help you with +1 for 922r purposes.

-Sam

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 27, 2009, 08:18 PM
Easiest way is also the checklist:

http://thegunwiki.com/Gunwiki/BuildSaigaVerifyCompliance

elmerfudd
December 27, 2009, 10:01 PM
One thing you always hear about Saiga conversions is how easy they are. I've done several now, and I think that needs a qualifier. For anyone who's mechanically adept, it'll be easy enough. If you can change your own clutch or install a framed door for example, then you shouldn't have any trouble converting a Saiga. If on the other hand, you're one of those folks who is incapable of changing their own oil or fixing a running toilet, then you should think twice about it.

I only mention this because I suspect that about 1/3 of the male population and 2/3 of the female population falls into the latter category.

Ohio Gun Guy
December 27, 2009, 10:14 PM
^^^^ Very true......

I once bought a 200 +/- tool box at a garage sale.....New in Box....I assumed it was missing some bolts, parts, or something. When I got it home I figured out they guy likely couldn't get it unboxed because the instructions were in the top, which was stored in the base, so you had to figure it out, without the instructions.......or just sell it for 20 at the next garage sale. :D

Z-Michigan
December 27, 2009, 10:54 PM
For anyone who's mechanically adept, it'll be easy enough. If you can change your own clutch or install a framed door for example, then you shouldn't have any trouble converting a Saiga. If on the other hand, you're one of those folks who is incapable of changing their own oil or fixing a running toilet, then you should think twice about it.

Very, very true. Anyone who took metal shop in high school or otherwise has basic metalworking skills will probably find it easy. Those of us who didn't will be learning some of those skills for the first time in doing the conversion, and learning on hardened steel that's also expensive is a bit less fun than learning on cheap mild steel that is only there for the learning process.

I am constantly reading about people who converted a Saiga in 45 minutes on their kitchen table with just a hand drill, and I have to wonder how many of those people are named MacGyver, or are millwrights or production engineers. I'm none of those and finding a conversion slower and more difficult than expected, though with patience I think I will have a good final product - it's just that it will have taken me 5+ hours and the purchase of several tools I didn't have before.

Girodin
December 28, 2009, 12:46 AM
For anyone who's mechanically adept, it'll be easy enough.

I'm not sure about that. I went to school to get an advanced degree at least import because I am not too mechanical. I volunteered once to help my uncle who is a roofer and owns a construction company put a new roof on my parents house. It was a humiliating experience doing everything wrong and having to have remedial instruction on every thing as well. I don't have much of a background in doing mechanical things prior to doing my first saiga. It took a few hours, largely because I used a file and didn't have a dremel. The thing is there are enough videos and good instructions out there that if you can read and take your time you can figure it out. Really if you can put a drill bit in and drill a hole that is the toughest part of it. I did, and the rifle turned out just fine.

I've never actually heard of anyone attempting it and not being able to complete it.

nalioth
December 28, 2009, 01:00 AM
I still wonder what you guys all have to drill . . .

When I do conversions, I only drill the hole for the bullet guide.


Some of you vastly overcomplicate things

elmerfudd
December 28, 2009, 03:54 AM
I always find the hardest part of it to be getting that trigger guard off.

I've never actually heard of anyone attempting it and not being able to complete it.

I've got an S308 that I bought used after someone else converted it. It works, but they managed to somehow drill the trigger pin holes out a few thousandths on an inch oversize and then made their own rather unusual pins to replace them. There were a few other oddities about that rifle too, but I was able to set those straight.

Z-Michigan
December 28, 2009, 10:03 AM
I still wonder what you guys all have to drill . . .

When I do conversions, I only drill the hole for the bullet guide.

Some of you vastly overcomplicate things

Nalioth, I think you are referring to your technique of using a cold chisel to remove the rivets. I've seen you post several times on this but I still don't really understand it. Could you please - pretty please (with sugar on top) - post a detailed description with photos, either here or on Saiga Forums, so that those of us who didn't have metal shop in high school can figure out what the easy way is? Many thanks in advance!

marktx
December 28, 2009, 10:17 AM
Just did my first conversion and I agree that it's a little more complicated than some people make it sound. Drilling out the rivets for the old trigger group was a pain but with some good bits shouldn't be too hard. Removing the trigger guard rivets was really easy as I bought an inexpensive bench grinder. About 15 seconds of grinding had both the front and rear rivet heads completely ground down. A quick grind cut the trigger guard in half so I could grind the center rivet, from there it was just a light pry with a screwdriver to pop the whole thing off. Getting that damn spring for the bolt hold open in place correctly was probably the most frustrating part of the whole affair.

nalioth
December 28, 2009, 10:41 AM
A quick grind cut the trigger guard in half so I could grind the center rivet, from there it was just a light pry with a screwdriver to pop the whole thing off. WOW!

Guess you didn't want to re-use that trigger guard . . . :(

THE DARK KNIGHT
December 28, 2009, 12:20 PM
Guess you didn't want to re-use that trigger guard . . .

I did that on my first conversion. Then afterwards, I realized how stupid it was to ruin the thing and waste $18 buying a new trigger guard. I treat that plate thing like gold now on conversions.

Girodin
December 28, 2009, 03:39 PM
I've got an S308 that I bought used after someone else converted it. It works, but they managed to somehow drill the trigger pin holes out a few thousandths on an inch oversize and then made their own rather unusual pins to replace them.

I don't understand why anyone would be messing with the holes on a 308.

I still wonder what you guys all have to drill . . .

I drill the edges of the axle pins used for the wishbone trigger. I do this because when I did my first one that is what all the instructions said to do. I too would be very interested in seeing pictures and better yet a video of your method. I was going to attempt your chisel method on the S12 project I am chronicaling in the shotgun forum here, but when I went to do it I wasn't sure what exactly i was supposed to do and was afraid I was going to gouge and or scratch the heck out of the receiver and since I understood how the drill method worked I did that. For me it seems pretty easy. I and I am sure many others would be interested in learning a better/easier method though.

The other thing I drill is the rivets on the trigger guard. After grinding them down and hitting them with a center punch I drill them down a bit and then know them out with a punch. Again to me it seems like an easy enough way to do it but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a better way. I say seeing because I am a visual learner. If I see it then I understand what I need to do. Trying to read what I am supposed to do doesn't always make it real clear to me.

+1 fpr not cutting the trigger guard in half. I also re-use them.

elmerfudd
December 28, 2009, 09:31 PM
I don't understand why anyone would be messing with the holes on a 308.

I've got no clue why myself. I figured they just lost the original pins, (maybe used one of those cruddy B-Square mounts), and made their own replacements. Anyway, I had ordered a couple of RSA triggers back when Copes was selling them for $70 and I planned on putting one in that rifle. That didn't go quite as planned. The pins were larger than the holes in the trigger group. That's when I discovered the pins and the holes in the receiver were oversized.

I suppose I could have reamed the trigger holes out a bit, but I didn't want to bastardize things any further than they already were. The homemade oversize pins actually have slotted ends and screw together. The small end of the pin has a female thread and a small machine screw fastens into it from the other side to secure it.

Surprisingly, the pins do look professionally made.

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