If you are a litterer....STOP!!


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mljdeckard
December 27, 2009, 07:05 PM
http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=9153008

Let me start by saying, I am a recovered litterer. I've done it all. I have vaporized glass bottles, shredded cars with M855, and exploded propane tanks with API. I have made divots in the desert that will last for decades.

I am NOT a tree-hugger. FAR from it. BUT, what I see, is that where I live on the developed front of the Wasatch Mountains, there's nowhere to shoot anymore. It's all being developed. You have to drive to the edges of the four-county area to find anywhere you can go to shoot what you want, how you want to. The worse news is, when you locate a place, everyone else does too. This is where you have mountains of everything that people think is fun to shoot. This is where the tree-huggers and ANTI-GUNNERS unite against us. If you want shooting zoned and fined out of existence, keep it up. Not included in the link I posted, is a story where the BLM found some shot-up monitors in the desert, and traced the serial #s back to the owner and kicked him in the gut with a fine.

I don't stop having fun, but I do invest two ounces of effort in keeping people off of our backs. MY RULES have formed as follows.

Use biodegradeable clay birds. They cost about the same now and are sometimes the only kind I can find anyway.

Use plastic milk jugs full of water, and pick them up when you are done.

Pick up your brass and hulls. This is just a good idea anyway in case they decide to match up the shooter to someone ELSE'S garbage.

Spread it out. Don't go to the same place every time, and if there is a place that is an obvious litter spot, don't go there at all. Go another 20 minutes into the desert.

Use steel targets you can take with you.

Watch your manners and rules especially when you aren't alone. You don't know if that other shooter has a brother-in-law working for the BLM.

If you must destroy a car, drain the fluids first. If that is a stretch, I suppose it's ridiculous to ask you to remove the glass. Just remember, that lasts forever.

My dad wasn't particularly destructive in raising me, but he never picked anything up either. It was part of his idea of getting out, to be able to do what you want and not worry about a little bit of trash. I had to shake it off and admit that my little contributions are part of the mountain.

We are making good progress. DON'T screw it up by making it easy for the antis to label us littering a-holes.

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sheepdog
December 27, 2009, 07:10 PM
...I know of two range spots here in Tx. that've been closed to shooters due to trash and debris left behind in the last month or two...what we do carelessly can hurt us all...I don't even leave my brass behind and don't shoot anything I don't take out there...trees are for climbing, not shooting....

fatelk
December 27, 2009, 09:41 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. The place I go out of town in the mountains gets trashed up real fast. People seem to think that since it's out of town they can dump their trash, shoot it up, and leave it lay.

I wish that there was some way to convince others to pack out their trash, but it seems like some folks are going to do the right thing, and others just don't care. I'm not sure what can be done about this, from an "activism" perspective.

mljdeckard
December 27, 2009, 10:23 PM
I posted it here, because this was all I can think of, thinking maybe other people will realize that just because their dad did it doesn't mean that they have to do it too.

Nicodemus38
December 27, 2009, 10:53 PM
has anyone here looked at the residue of airsoft? thousands of little plastic pellets priced at 10 bucks for 2,000 at walmart. go through two boxes with your buddies and look at the residue ont he ground. no one seems to be interested in the fact that these airsoft bbs are the ideal size for MOST turkeys, condors, etc to use as crop rocks. and plastic lasts foreever.

steveracer
December 27, 2009, 11:16 PM
I leave the range I use every time with three or four full 55gal bags of trash in my truck. I bring none, and leave with lots. Every time. I figure I'll clean it up, and other will benefit from it, fine. I WILL NOT trash the place, because it's like heaven having someplace to shoot without some range-rat telling me I can't draw from a holster, or fire more than one round every five seconds, or reload on the move, or transition from carbine/shotgun to pistol, or lay down on my mat, or shoot from retention at two yards, or whatever other BS people have told me over the years.
I have begun to hate organized ranges so much that I drive 50 miles each way out to Oso, (middle of nowhere) and shoot there, just to avoid the strange rules. I clean up every time, no matter what kind of other people's trash it is laying about the place.

Edited to add: We really do need to come up with cheap biodegradeable airsoft BBs. Paintballs are degradeable, why not airsoft?

shotgunjoel
December 28, 2009, 12:17 AM
Edited to add: We really do need to come up with cheap biodegradeable airsoft BBs. Paintballs are degradeable, why not airsoft?

They exist, and they aren't much if any more expensive, for some reason they haven't caught on.

wilkersk
December 28, 2009, 02:53 AM
I always manage to bring back a truck load of trash, brass, and shotshells. Even got to dump at the transfer station for free a couple of times, after explaining what I was doing.

Yikes!
December 28, 2009, 03:05 AM
Please remember... cigarette butts are litter too. On the range and on the street.

HOME DEPOT GEORGE
December 28, 2009, 12:30 PM
Only if you smoke cigarettes with filters:neener:

steveracer
December 28, 2009, 04:15 PM
One of my biggest pet peeves is the butt-out-the-window thing. Also at the range. People who do this crap have obviously never had a Gunnery Sergeant in their face for it.

mljdeckard
December 28, 2009, 04:34 PM
When I was in 3rd ID in Germany, one day I saw a guy in full combat gear on the street, he would move out of the way for cars and then go back to the middle and stand there. I went to ask him why, he pointed at the drain, and said; "The SMAJ caught me throwing a butt in there. I have to guard it all weekend." I walked away. :)

wilkersk
December 28, 2009, 08:45 PM
You would think that with all the multi-billion dollar wild fires in the news the last couple of years, people would be more concerned about tossing lit ciggarettes out in places where there is plenty of class A fuel ready to burn. Yet I constantly see people flipping their butts into the tall grass, leaves etc...

No faster way to ruin a good remote shooting spot than to burn the forest down around it.

Tim the student
December 31, 2009, 02:37 AM
mljdeckard, good thread.

mcdonl
December 31, 2009, 11:06 AM
Excellent thread. I like to shoot goards, rotten veggies my wife wont cook, crap apples, etc... the critters eat them up after too. Crackers are another good one.

Sheldon J
December 31, 2009, 04:49 PM
I'm one of the lucky ones... I have my own range and when it gets messy I just take out the tractor with the end loader and neaten things up a tad...
However when shooting someplace that is not mine it has always been considered good form to pick up after myself at the end of the session trying to leave things as I found them, or better....

WardenWolf
January 1, 2010, 08:06 PM
I try to clean up my shells and hulls, assuming I can find them without too much trouble. I use autoloading AK-based firearms primarily, and they tend to send the spent casings a long ways. I'll grab the ones I come across, and that's about all anyone can do.

steveracer
January 1, 2010, 08:34 PM
The brass isn't going to be a big deal. The plastic, however...

mljdeckard
January 1, 2010, 09:53 PM
Yeah, if all we had to deal with was some old brass, the tree-huggers wouldn't have much to complain about. Also, pretty much all of the AK ammo I use is steel cases, and I'll be surprised if it lasts more than two winters under the snow anyway.

sheepdog
January 1, 2010, 10:04 PM
"...Let no one say, and say it to your shame,
That all was beauty here before you came." Can anyone tell me where I learned that little ditty????

MD_Willington
January 2, 2010, 01:55 AM
There was a gravel pit closed near Genesee, ID. Same deal, everyone left their crap there after shooting so the owner told everyone to get lost.

NVCZ
January 6, 2010, 01:56 AM
When I was about 10 yrs old I spent the summer with my uncle who owned a little bit of land in Northern California (when it was a good state). The first day at the trailer he brought out a little Beretta .22 semi auto and taught me how to handle it safely and handed me a brick of ammo. He pointed to the side of the trailer where there were cases of empty bottles.

Told me to take as many as I like and set them over at the pit and blast away. He went in for a nap, and I killed a half dozen cases of bottles. Man that was fun. Later when the shooting was done and he woke up he came out to see how I did. He was as happy as I was about how my first real shooting day went.

Then he told me "Now go clean up all that glass". :what:

I did, and I learned my first lesson in gun responsibility.

You are responsible for what you shoot.

To this day I clean up after myself and others at the outdoor ranges I use.

I taught my son the same lesson.

My uncle is long gone to the other side, but his legacy and lessons live.

Thank you Uncle Bill...

NVCZ

Mp7
January 6, 2010, 08:36 AM
By the way of the highroad - as i perceive it -
if you´re not able to take responsibility for your actions
including picking up your trash
you´re probably not fit to own guns ...

... i remember walking the appalachian woods ...
you could easily find stoneage arrowheads in the ground.
Which is nice.

There were 12ga shells every few yards too.

millertyme
January 6, 2010, 03:11 PM
Sheepdog - that sounds like Dr. Seuss

THE DARK KNIGHT
January 13, 2010, 03:42 AM
I have vaporized glass bottles, shredded cars with M855, and exploded propane tanks with API. I have made divots in the desert that will last for decades

Please, Please, PLEASE can I spend a weekend with you this summer? :D

FRJ
January 13, 2010, 10:44 AM
Recently in Washington state they have enacted a law that the Dept of Natural Resources can close any public land any time they want for no reason at all. They have cleaned up a lot of the spots that people used to informally shoot and closed the areas to the public. The message is either clean up your mess or lose the privledge to shoot here. I really don't know why people have to bring their old TV's, washers, and refrigerators to the woods to shoot them up but it has to stop. FRJ

Gatorbait
January 13, 2010, 02:55 PM
Sheepdog, "'Let no one say it, and say it to your shame, that all was beauty here before you came'. The words of 'Tubby' Mellor, the first headmaster of Tapton House, as he reminded pupils to have the highest regard for the beautiful house and parkland, situated on the outskirts of Chesterfield, Derbyshire."

http://www.oldtaptonians.co.uk/mothsreviews.html

OpelBlitz
January 14, 2010, 10:34 AM
Well, as a sportsman (as many of us are) I kind of feel it's our responsibility to help preserve our natural resources as well. And I'm no tree hugger either. In fact it's in our sportsmen's club's creed.

The Tennessean
January 25, 2010, 12:14 PM
Nice thread. Also, please don't shoot road signs. :)

hso
January 25, 2010, 12:24 PM
The old joke used to run, "The difference in a "redneck" and a "good ol' boy" is whether you throw your trash out on the side of the road for others to pick up or in the back of your truck to take to the dump.".

nitetrane98
January 25, 2010, 12:33 PM
I really don't know why people have to bring their old TV's, washers, and refrigerators to the woods to shoot them up but it has to stop.

It's usually been my experience that the old appliances and such were simply targets of opportunity for the shooters. They were'nt the ones that brought them there. The illegal dumpers who don't want to pay the landfill fee are the ones trashing up the place. If I ever came across freshly dumped stuff, and I was in my pickup truck, I got the hell out of there. If had been rained on a few times it was OK to shoot it up without the deputy happening by and thinking you put it there.

The county brings probationers with a community service sentence out to pick up trash on the roads and illegally dumped stuff.

So here's some cockeyed logic. If you don't litter, these probationers will simply be be enjoying a walk down a country road. Do your part to fight crime!! Help make community service a punishment!:what::neener:

mljdeckard
March 18, 2012, 02:05 AM
I thought it was a good idea to add to this thread rather than start a new one.

It's been a couple of years, but I think this is worth preaching every once in a while. A couple of things have happened recently that made me want to bring it up again.

Not too long ago, the Utah Shooting Sports Council sponsored a range clean up day where they invited all members to help clean up popular shooting sites. They hauled away DUMPSTERS of trash and still didn't get everything. A week ago I attended a gun policy conference with some local figures and the panel was asked what mistakes shooters make. The one they all agreed on was littering. No excuses, no more.

I took a six-year old out yesterday, and when we were done, we filled two garbage bags with our exploded milk jugs (I do reflect how good life is when you can estimate how long it has been since you have been shooting by how many new milk jugs you have accumulated to fill with water and shoot,) and other people's shells hulls and AK cases. Among other objects I didn't take were a styrofoam spare tire carrier insert and a fragmented lead-acid battery. Someone actually thought that it would be a good idea to splatter that all over the desert.

STOP LITTERING.

And to The Dark Knight, if you had spent the summer with me, it would have been in Baghdad. Not nearly as much fun. :)

beatledog7
March 18, 2012, 07:32 AM
Whatever a shooter leaves behind will be found by some anti-gunner who will then think worse of shooters than he already does.

And who can blame him?

langenc
March 18, 2012, 11:36 PM
I
always wonder what some peoples living rooms look like??

Why not shoot the old TV in the living room??

SLOBS!!

JohnKSa
March 19, 2012, 12:06 AM
"The difference in a "redneck" and a "good ol' boy" is whether you throw your trash out on the side of the road for others to pick up or in the back of your truck to take to the dump.". At highway speeds, there's a lot less difference than many "good ol' boys" seem to think. I've seen a lot of stuff blow out of the beds of pickup trucks. And not just paper trash, either.Whatever a shooter leaves behind will be found by some anti-gunner who will then think worse of shooters than he already does.Worse yet, by someone on the fence who hasn't made up his mind yet. That's when it really hurts the worst.

BemidjiDweller
March 19, 2012, 12:22 AM
I agree with picking up all the stuff ya shoot, but then again, there is stuff there that everyone uses to prop targets up against or to tape targets to. I don't want to be the guy to take away who knows how many peoples' target stand/backstop because it could also be called garbage. At the gravel pit I shoot at there is a fridge and a filing cabinet with new targets on it every time, and a whole bunch of old engine parts full of holes half way up a berm. If it's still getting used, it's not trash.

leadcounsel
March 19, 2012, 01:10 AM
Great thread. Makes me feel very guilty for some glass I shamefully shot up in my days... Won't do that again.

bikerdoc
March 19, 2012, 06:42 AM
Anyone noticed the price of scrap metal lately?

What with the economy and all we got a bunch of unemployed and retired people making a good pile of cash picking up brass and refridgerators and all manner of scrap metal around the countryside.

Younger ones dumpster dive small and large venues for aluminum soda cans.

A not so young entrepeneur collects plastic soda bottles in our non deposit state and once a month goes to a deposit state and collects cash.

mljdeckard
March 19, 2012, 09:34 AM
Even if WE don't think things like target stands are trash, non-shooters still do. Think about this from their point of view. They regard anything we take out and leave as litter. They don't care that someone else MAY find it useful, it's just litter.

I never plan on there being target stands out where I shoot. I bring my own targets that sit on the ground or bring my own stand.

ATLDave
March 19, 2012, 10:10 AM
has anyone here looked at the residue of airsoft? thousands of little plastic pellets priced at 10 bucks for 2,000 at walmart. go through two boxes with your buddies and look at the residue ont he ground.

I don't know about the Wally-World airsoft pellets, but the high-quality ones from Japan are biodegradable, and break down very quickly.

ATLDave
March 19, 2012, 10:11 AM
Great thread. When I was in the Boy Scouts, I was taught to always leave the outdoors cleaner than I found it. Police your own mess, and take away at least one extra piece of plastic or trash or aluminum when you leave. If everyone did that, then the mounds of trash found in some places would "evaporate" pretty quickly.

blarby
March 19, 2012, 10:50 AM
You aren't alone in anger, or alone in the possibility of havin yer spots closed :

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=641421

Dave Workman
March 21, 2012, 10:03 AM
Use steel targets you can take with you.

Actually, there are some fantastic rubber (or some kinda material) targets made by I believe Champion that are far better than steel and they last, and last and last. They do not ricochet bullets, and they can take hundreds if not thousands of hits.

As some of you know, I've written in the past, in Gun Week, SOF and elsewhere, about the swine who litter up gravel pits and other traditional shooting spots, especially on public land. They give us all a bad name.

Giving us a better name are people who use retrievable targets and who pick up their messes.

I've got a few of the above mentioned targets and they are the darnedest things I've ever shot at. Several are mounted on large frames so they spin when hit. Others honestly look like big orange or red steel plates. Some look like crows, squirrels, prairie dogs or other small varmints, and they are a hoot to shoot.

In my earlier years when I was just getting started in handloading, I always took a bag with me to such sites and picked up once-fired brass. The places were loaded with spent casings, and that's how I put together a rather formidable supply of empties. It's amazing to me the money that some goofs leave lying around for cheap &%%$%$s like me to pick up and re-use. God's gift to financially challenged gomers like me, I reckon. :D


Check out such targets. And remind others to clean up their messes.

Brockak47
March 21, 2012, 05:44 PM
Ya man, I hate the lazy people who leave their trash everywhere, it really bothers me. Not just at shooting spots, but in general. Every time I go shooting I bring a bag and pick up shotgun hulls and such, always leave with more stuff than I came with.

Tim37
March 21, 2012, 09:40 PM
i havent seen too many appliances sitting around with scrap metal what it is these days. but i dont think it was the shooters that put them there i have shot up a old refigirator befor but it was because it was already there.

ZeSpectre
March 21, 2012, 09:47 PM
I've long been proud of my shooting group. They've always pitched in and cleaned up afterwards.


http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/zespectre/SSNG-17.jpg

BemidjiDweller
March 22, 2012, 02:38 AM
Someone took the filing cabinet that was a decent target holder (or blew it up into tiny, tiny bits), but the fridge is way past its usefulness. Next time I go, I'm going to bring the truck and haul that thing to the dump. Unfortunately, there are way to many shotgun hulls on the ground over the entire area of the gravel pit. We are talking 200x200 yds area roughly. So many in fact, the the gravel has already buried a whole bunch. I can't imagine the amount of brass that is buried under all that gravel over the years. I guess a year's worth of range trips/clean ups would help a lot. Just need to buy me a truck rake.

Tim37
March 22, 2012, 09:57 PM
btw i guess i should add these days i shoot at a good friends house so clean up is manditory other wise the landlord would have a fit.

mquail
March 22, 2012, 10:51 PM
Ya man, I hate the lazy people who leave their trash everywhere, it really bothers me. Not just at shooting spots, but in general. Every time I go shooting I bring a bag and pick up shotgun hulls and such, always leave with more stuff than I came with.

It seems to be the human condition to want to let someone else pick up after them. I live out in the sticks on an unpaved road which is just dandy for folks to drive who are drinking. Today my son and I picked up about 20 pounds of junk tossed out of people's windows, mostly beer cans and bottles. There was regular trash too, a chair and several rugs. None of the other neighbors, all 4, do it so we do a couple of times a year. Concerning the bottles. I often run my dogs in the ditch and take special care to get all the bottles I can find, broken and unbroken. And yes, when we go to the range we take home at least as much as we brought and sometimes a little more.

Jim, West PA
April 27, 2012, 01:34 PM
Somethin y'all may wanna check into is..in our state, Pa. there is a program against litterpigs. If you see someone litter you can contact the DOT with thier license plate number and the state will send them a litter bag for thier car.
It's a 'nice' way of sayin please stop litterin our state.
Persoanly tho, i think the state should send a garbage truck to thier house and dump it in thier front yard.

There is no excuse to be litterin anywhere anytime for any reason PERIOD !!!!

Doghandler
April 29, 2012, 10:53 AM
Time to call in the Boy Scouts and clean up the place. :D Thanks for posting this thread!

majortoo
May 2, 2012, 01:44 PM
Great thread! I am an old Army surplus Viet Nam vet who is also a fervent supporter of both the Second Amendment and the Sierra Club. I respectfully submit that perhaps we can build more bridges between those two causes? Both the Sierra Club (and its clones) and the supporters of the Second Amendment should treasure our environment. Don't we all like a walk in the woods, even when it is not hunting season? Won't we get a lot more done if we can find common ground and work together?

danweasel
May 2, 2012, 02:00 PM
I am an Iraq vet, ride dirt bikes, shoot guns, drive an F150 and count myself as an enviromentalist.

I love the outdoors. I love my kids and it is already obvious that they won't have what I had growing up.

I hate litter. I hate people who think it's awesome to "stick it to the greenies" by leaving all of the lights on at work over night. Or refusing to recycle. Some A-hole I used to work with used to take our blue paper recycling bin and hide it in a closet, because global warming is a myth, that's why...

Regardless of any of that, pollution will never be a GOOD thing So why not grow up and take a few minutes extra a day to do something right? Just common sense and a tiny, miniscule amount of inconvenience, that's all it takes.

I like this thread. 4/4 Stars.

C0untZer0
May 13, 2012, 10:49 PM
Living in Chicagoland, there is no where you can just go out and shoot.

You have to shoot at a range or not shoot.

One of the tactics of anti-gunners is to claim that a range is having a negative environmental impact. I guess it depends on what state you live in but I think if you leave your area looking like a dump, you're handing anti-gunners a golden opportunity to shut down shooting in that area.

spazzymcgee
May 14, 2012, 12:51 AM
My shooting range is on my land. :neener:

WardenWolf
May 15, 2012, 11:35 PM
I did some shooting in the desert a few weeks ago. While I'll admit I wasn't able to find all my casings, I did carry out more casings than I shot, along with the remains of my targets. The ammo I shot was steel-cased, too, so eventually it'll rust into oblivion.

mljdeckard
May 16, 2012, 09:36 PM
That's perfectly reasonable. We might not be perfect, but there's an obvious difference in attitude between someone who finds a shell casing out in the woods, and someone who finds 300 empty 12 ga hulls in a pile. All we can do is make an effort.

I just found a new (to me) spot to shoot, for you Utah guys, it's the rock quarry in the hill west of Grantsville. It's fantastic, you can do whatever you want there, but there is so much debris, you can't walk without stepping on stuff. We went and shot, got our shattered milk jugs, all of the brass we could find, took another couple of handfuls of empty shotshells and felt stupid.

wrs840
May 16, 2012, 09:52 PM
I'm as far right as Jesse Helms, but all my trucks have a fifteen gallon steel trash can strapped in back somewhere. I pick up my own and others' range trash, (and roadside trash as a form of relaxation). God's word about 'stewardship of the land" isn't an admonition. It's good therapy advice.

hso
May 17, 2012, 07:37 AM
As shooters should we be organizing cleanup days to clear out the legacy trash of the trashy shooters at our favorite ranges?

mljdeckard
May 17, 2012, 10:22 AM
The Utah Shooting Sports Council organizes them, for the last big cleanup day, I was drilling with the national guard. (We had downtime, I suggested we go and help.)

stonecutter2
May 21, 2012, 01:49 PM
Anyone noticed the price of scrap metal lately?

What with the economy and all we got a bunch of unemployed and retired people making a good pile of cash picking up brass and refridgerators and all manner of scrap metal around the countryside.

Younger ones dumpster dive small and large venues for aluminum soda cans.

A not so young entrepeneur collects plastic soda bottles in our non deposit state and once a month goes to a deposit state and collects cash.
My bro-in-law and I spend cleanup days at our range, and we find as much scrap metal as we can. Cashing in on random chunks of metal we've found has helped buy supplies for the range. It also gives that metal a chance at being useful again, instead of rusting out at our range and being an eyesore.

bergmen
May 22, 2012, 12:24 PM
I did some shooting in the desert a few weeks ago. While I'll admit I wasn't able to find all my casings, I did carry out more casings than I shot, along with the remains of my targets. The ammo I shot was steel-cased, too, so eventually it'll rust into oblivion.

Not necessarily. You can find rusty tin cans in waste dumps at the edges of old mines that are at least 100 years old.

Dan

GoWolfpack
May 22, 2012, 01:33 PM
Not necessarily. You can find rusty tin cans in waste dumps at the edges of old mines that are at least 100 years old.

Dan
That's tin, not steel.

It takes steel cases a couple of years (3-5 my guess) to rust completely through. When I find some at my shooting hole that I shot 5 or more years ago it usually crumbles when I try to pick it up.

mljdeckard
May 22, 2012, 01:45 PM
Russian steel cases rust quickly, significant degradation after one year.

foghornl
May 22, 2012, 11:55 PM
Can't remember where I heard it in my (somewhat) mis-spent youth, but goes kinda like this:

"Leave nothing but your footprints, take nothing but your memories and your trash"

Mp7
May 23, 2012, 01:21 PM
Yeah. Good thread.

I remember the first time i wandered in the hilly forest of KY Appalachia .....
everything was so beautiful .. except for the millions of aging shotshells
i was stepping on.

DeadLiver
May 24, 2012, 12:31 AM
OP and I have had conversations about this in the past. No more weekend college for me so that I can participate in the Utah Shooting Sport Council's range cleanup days. I do maintenance at an apartment complex, and when I have to replace a toilet, I'll stick in the back of the truck and we'll shoot it in the desert. I also bring 5 gal buckets and some shovels so we clean it up. If a person is responsible enough to own and use a firearm, they should be responsible enough to clean up their crap. Simple as that.

WardenWolf
May 24, 2012, 05:14 AM
DeadLiver, gives new meaning to "Shooting the s***"

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