Remington ... you bent me over again.


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Snakum
December 28, 2009, 06:53 PM
In case anyone associated with Remington mfg. is reading these forums and actually gives a @#$% ...

(I know, it'll be locked soon enough but I don't care, at least I can vent.)

I have owned so many Remmy shotguns and rifles I probably can't sit down and list them all. I've purchased two Remington shotguns and three Remington rifles JUST THIS YEAR! And anything I've bought that was made before about 1993or so I have always been very, very happy with. But a couple of months ago I bought my fourth or fifth 870, then another (tactical) about a month after that. And I had an issue with the 'sixth shell no-load' on both and I emailed corporate and Remmy support and finally, after eight days, got back a canned email answer that was absolutely beyond worthless. I figured out the issue myself, fixed both guns, and posted here for the others having the same issue.

Today I picked up a new 7600 (after selling an awesome old walnut stocked 742) and couldn't get the irons to sight in at 50 yards! I went thru an entire box of shells and still have to add windage and elevation with the rear sight maxed on both azimuths. Tonight I'm cleaning it thoroughly and and saw that the rear sight was jigged left about .125 off the barrel/receiver centerline. Looking at it now it is as plain as day. I guess I need to start eyeballing Remington tapped receiver holes, iron sights and beads, etc. just like I always go over my CAI weapons for canted front sight bases, tweaked gas tubes, etc.

Once again, being a glutton for punishment and quite stubborn, I have emailed Remington again and called and left messages at corporate. But because I'm not quite totally insane I don't really expect anyone there to give a @#$% and do anything about it. I'll throw a pic rail and a red dot on it. And you know what else I'll do? I'll spend my money where people still care about what an American made product looks and feels like and how it performs. No wonder the Asians are kicking our asses and our kids are looking forward to working at McDonalds after college. :rolleyes:

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Horsemany
December 28, 2009, 07:05 PM
Valid points, all of them. Considering recent years price increases it is dissapointing to see their quality spinning around the toilet bowl. I picked up a BDL 2 years ago that the bolt handle rubbed on the receiver cut out and the receiver was acting as a recoil lug. It had no camming action and didn't cock until you pulled the bolt back 1/4". They gots to wake up!

Snakum
December 28, 2009, 07:12 PM
It is sad. Truly. They are better than this.

I saw they are looking for a QA Engineer in Illinois. I have about 20 years in mfg and IT quality assurance. Maybe I should apply. :D

Brimic
December 28, 2009, 07:17 PM
Once again, being a glutton for punishment and quite stubborn, I have emailed Remington again and called and left messages at corporate. But because I'm not quite totally insane I don't really expect anyone there to give a @#$% and do anything about it. I'll throw a pic rail and a red dot on it. And you know what else I'll do? I'll spend my money where people still care about what an American made product looks and feels like and how it performs.

Now go down to the local pawn/gun shop and buy an early model 597 .22.:evil: I bought one when they first came out because I thought "gee wiz that's a neat rifle new rifle from my favorite gun manufacturer and Dale Earnhardt is endorsing it so it must be really good." Regardless of what people say about the 597, I completely hate that rifle. It would jam constantly, the barrel would not stop rusting, and the stock was bug ugly. Its the last Remington product I'll ever buy.
A friend of mine bought a used 597 a few years ago despite me trying very hard to talk him out of it. He's very good with tools, machining, and gunsmithing and despite his best efforts and all of the advice he has gotten off the internetz, he can sometimes fire through a full magazine without a jam.

MetalHead
December 28, 2009, 07:18 PM
These reports of proablems kinda got me bummed out, haven't bought anything from them since my used 1100 Special Field but always thought in the back of my mind that if I should need something new again I could depend on them for a quality product. Guess not for now, maybe Cerbrus will sell them to somebody that cares about more than just profit, and soon!

Brimic
December 28, 2009, 07:19 PM
Guess not for now, maybe Cerbrus will sell them to somebody that cares about more than just profit, and soon!

The problem goes back at least 15 years before Cerebus came into the picture.

Snakum
December 28, 2009, 07:23 PM
Oh nooooo ... I bought a brand new 597 with the grey synthetic stock and cheapie scope (Dick's) just last week. haven't fired it yet. :(

MetalHead
December 28, 2009, 07:23 PM
Quote:
Guess not for now, maybe Cerbrus will sell them to somebody that cares about more than just profit, and soon!

The problem goes back at least 15 years before Cerebus came into the picture.

I don't see any body posting that it has gotten any better. :( :( :(

Brimic
December 28, 2009, 07:25 PM
Oh nooooo ... I bought a brand new 597 with the grey synthetic stock and cheapie scope (Dick's) just last week. haven't fired it yet.

You should be ok. I think in the earlier models, they used the customers as their QC.

Brimic
December 28, 2009, 07:26 PM
I don't see any body posting that it has gotten any better.

No doubt. Cerebus is all about bottom line, nothing else.

Snakum
December 28, 2009, 07:27 PM
I really do have 20 years in Mfg and IT Quality Assurance Engineering and Management. I'm unemployed right now so maybe I should ask Remington if I can 'intern' up there for room and board? :D

I would FIX this @#$%. :D

SharpsDressedMan
December 28, 2009, 07:29 PM
Did I tell ya about my 2000 piece batch of Remington unfired brass that I loaded into ammo, and they cracked at the mouth of the cases while sitting on the shelf? Since I bought it surplus from the CMP, Remington refused to replace it or do anything about it. Virgin, unfired brass cracking before it was fired. Buyers beware.

Brimic
December 28, 2009, 07:32 PM
Did I tell ya about my 2000 piece batch of Remington unfired brass that I loaded into ammo, and they cracked at the mouth of the cases while sitting on the shelf? Since I bought it surplus from the CMP, Remington refused to replace it or do anything about it. Virgin, unfired brass cracking before it was fired. Buyers beware.

I've had that problem too, but I can't remember which cartridge. I don't use remington brass unless I have to.

Runningman
December 28, 2009, 07:37 PM
I know what you are taking saying about Remington's quality. Used to be long time fan of Remington. Not these days. I have had more than my fair share of issues with Remington starting around 1993. I've also seen some of there mistakes on coworkers and friends rifles and shotguns. What gets me is some of this stuff is so obvious. That I can't believe who ever does test firing or proof testing has to see some of the issues and for what ever reason they ship it anyway. A sad way to run the show if you ask me.

mljdeckard
December 28, 2009, 07:42 PM
I've never had a bad experience with a Remington, but there have been a LOT of posts lately about sloppy workmanship. I'm not in a position where I want to buy any of their guns right now anyway, but if I were, I think I would hold out until there was a bloody revolution in their ownership and/or management.

MJR007
December 28, 2009, 07:47 PM
I feel your pain and the issues are real. This IS the reason I got into Heart barrels. I hope remy is not going win....

Uncle Mike
December 28, 2009, 08:25 PM
The problem goes back at least 15 years before Cerebus came into the picture.

Nope! The problem may have birthed before Cerberus but it has matured and became the monster it is under their rule. And the sad thing, they know all about it!

Remington steadily tells the dealers, to hang in there, we know of the problems and are in the process of correcting them!

If you speak with employees there, they say a different story, to the likes of, the company does not concern themselves with employee relations or concerns...now, I don't know, but if you don't give two hoots about your workforce, you for sure are not going to care too much about your customer!

The other side of the coin suggests that Cerberus is made up of caring, supportive firearm aficionados whom are trying to further the companies reputation and strengths....
this is what you'll read in the press, anyway.

My take on it is that Cerberus is busy buying up as many of the firearm manufacturing facilities it can, and that is where the money is going, and where did the money come from, lay-offs, quality control cutbacks, steep price hikes, quality cut backs in essence of vendors and production of parts....so on and so forth. I may be wrong, hope I am, but it certainly looks that way.

All I know is, Remington has got to shape up, period! All the years I have been peddling Remingtons, this is the absolute worse I have ever seen it, it is getting to the point that the mere muttering of the word, Remington brings discussed looking facial expressions and derogatory remarks.

ArmedBear
December 28, 2009, 08:28 PM
Remington hasn't introduced a new, unadulterated "best-in-class" shotgun model in decades. They have, however, failed repeatedly. The 700 safety debacle and not-fix were pre-Cerberus. The 597, a good little .22, was screwed up in the marketplace because Remington wanted to save a few pennies on magazines when they released it. It's been fixed, but the gun's reputation was soiled for a long time.

Somehow I think that Remington was on the highway to hell a while ago.

Sorry Snakum. Maybe if you would have paid more attention to the "Remington haters" on this and damn near every other forum out there, you might have been saved the trouble.

MachIVshooter
December 28, 2009, 08:38 PM
huh. I've bought five M700's since 2000, none of them have had an issue. Either I'm lucky, or it's just the usual case of only hearing about the bad stuff.

Uncle Mike
December 28, 2009, 08:41 PM
Well...let the record show, I am NOT a Remington hater. lol hehehehe I sincerely wish and hope they get straightened up.
I just put a CDL in 7mm-08 back for myself,picked through them all and found a good(looking) one, hope it is a shooter!

Armedbear...you mean to tell, that you don't find the Remington 887 Nitromag with the awesome, space age, transformer play-toy looking 'Armorlokt' coating to your liking!?! lol hehehe
Shucks...I thought everybody would like a 'plastic' coated shotgun...hehehehehe
What's next, plastic 700 barrels with steel liners in them....Oh no, I may have give them a new cost cutting measure of a idea....oh no!

DNS
December 28, 2009, 08:43 PM
Yep, I've been wanting a 7615 since I've got way to many extra AR mags, but I'm to chicken to take a chance on a Remmy after doing some pre-Christmas research.

Mike

rizbunk77
December 28, 2009, 08:44 PM
my friend and I have noticed a distinct decline in the quality of 700's when it comes fit, and also another friend told of a recent Remington shotgun that was a piece of crap out of the box, I think it may have been an autoloader. These dudes are serious duck hunters and would know...
now that AR's are cheaper than 700's how long to you think they can keep this up?

Uncle Mike
December 28, 2009, 08:47 PM
huh. I've bought five M700's since 2000, none of them have had an issue. Either I'm lucky, or it's just the usual case of only hearing about the bad stuff.

Oh, you know how it is...a manufacture can turn out 50 years of excellent, nary a problem, product...and let one turd slip out, and they are terrible low life manufactures that produce nothing but junk!

Remington is still producing good firearms, just not across the board. Seems like you'll get 1 good one for every 10 bad ones, and the prices...I mean da_n!

Those of us singing the loudest remember the Remington of yesterday, when you got 10 good firearms to the 1 bad one, and there is NO excuse for the decline in quality and the increase in price!

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 08:55 PM
No argument from me...AND I AM NOT A REMINGTON HATER.

I've been a loyal Remington customer for 25 years...but not anymore. The last 3 changed my mind. (Like Uncle Mike said...I (we) remember the Remingtons from 15+ years ago...I have a few of them)

My next few will be Brownings and Savages.

BAS402
December 28, 2009, 09:10 PM
Browning - Japan
Savage - USA!

Avenger29
December 28, 2009, 09:12 PM
Remington hasn't introduced a new, unadulterated "best-in-class" shotgun model in decades.

Hell, I don't care about anything new not being introduced. Remington needs to shake out the QC issues and get back to producing consistent quality. Trim back the model offerings (do we really need 25+ variations of the 700 or 26+ variations of the 870?) and ramp up the QC across the board.

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 09:18 PM
Agreed...

And lose those damn fluted barrels on hunting rifles and triangle barrels on tactical rifles...:barf:

Flutes on a heavy barreled tactical rifle is one thing, but on a hunting rifle???

And I'll take mine with a round barrel...Thank You.

Horsemany
December 28, 2009, 09:49 PM
Loose the pressed looking checkering and bring back a recoil pad that's properly fitted and I'd feel a lot better. The fit and finish looks very reminiscent of New Haven Winchesters right before they went belly up. How they managed to screw things up so bad in the midst of a gun buying frenzy that's lasted at least 2 years is beyond me.

Maverick223
December 28, 2009, 09:55 PM
The one thing I don't understand is how the infamous "three-headed dog" (Cerberus) can produce good firearms from some manufacturers (IMO all of the other acquisitions seem to do pretty well), and have horrible QC and overall workmanship from the Remington line. :confused: The older firearms were a good working man's rifle, good quality, and affordable, now I consider it neither. If they fail to straighten up, I fear production will be moved elsewhere as a cost cutting measure...like China [gulp]...or worse we will loose Remington altogether [gasp]. :what:

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 10:08 PM
I think the answer to that be this...

They are selling the name (Remington) to the loyal customers (like I used to be).

When I look at their website...it screams to me that they fear the Winchester offerings. I see they have fluted barrels on hunting rifles like the Winchesters. I'm sorry but I will not be buying either one...I will build a rifle before buying something that screwed up (and that is directed at both Remington AND Winchester).

Savage is the only one left that has a clue...no wonder they are selling so many rifles.

The Kimber offerings appear nice, but expensive.

mljdeckard
December 28, 2009, 10:18 PM
I've had a couple of 700 .308s, but I'm going to see if I can build a good AR-10 and walk away from bolt rifles completely.

Maverick223
December 28, 2009, 10:21 PM
I will build a rifle before buying something that screwed up (and that is directed at both Remington AND Winchester).Seems to me that both offer plenty of rifles that do not have fluted barrels, and IIRC Winchester only offers them on the Coyote Varminter M-70. Remington has that triangular barrel that makes no logical sense, but I am rather fond of fluting a bull bbl as it lightens it without reducing its strength under flexure much (and if performed correctly it can be stronger under its own weight), but to each their own.

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 10:22 PM
I have considered the AR-10 thing myself...still considering it actually.

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 10:24 PM
Seems to me that both offer plenty of rifles that do not have fluted barrels, and IIRC Winchester only offers them on the Coyote Varminter M-70

No they don't...Winchester does not have a stainless rifle that isn't fluted (Extreme Weather). And Remington went and stuck a 24" barrel on the SPS Stainless...I prefer 22" for a 308 Win.

I can see the point of flutes on heavy barrels (target, varmint, tactical)...but not on hunting rifles.

Uncle Mike
December 28, 2009, 10:26 PM
The one thing I don't understand is how the infamous "three-headed dog" (Cerberus) can produce good firearms from some manufacturers (IMO all of the other acquisitions seem to do pretty well), and have horrible QC and overall workmanship from the Remington line.

Could be that Remington is the biggest of all the firearm manufacturers Cerberus owns, so this is where the most cost cutting has gone on...?

Hey, once the bean counters start running your business, it is done!

I'm not going to accept shoddy craftsmanship because they don't want to pay for skilled craftsmen.

It's all about money! They can count all the beans they want, keep it up, and 'beans' are all they are going to have. lol

mljdeckard
December 28, 2009, 10:30 PM
I can fix and customize everything on an AR-10 myself. I'm in a position where I will be gone for a while, making plenty of money. I can buy a stripped AR-10 lower and mail myself parts as I go, I'll start with uppers in .243 and .308, then maybe I'll get one in .260. If they made one in 22-250 life would be perfect, but I think with an AR-15 set up for varminting and my dad's 700 VSSF in 22-250, I'll make it work. (That one is fantastic, and it DOES have the flutes. :)

Redneck with a 40
December 28, 2009, 10:35 PM
I've got a Remmy 700 SPS Tac in .308 that I could not be happier with. I've put 500 rounds downrange in the last year, the rifle will easily shoot a .75" 100 yard group, I really like it.:neener:

Horsemany
December 28, 2009, 10:38 PM
I've got a Remmy 700 SPS Tac in .308 that I could not be happier with. I've put 500 rounds downrange in the last year, the rifle will easily shoot a .75" 100 yard group, I really like it.

I've not seen a difference in accuracy but the difference in fit and finish is night and day. For the younger generation who never owned a 700 from the 70's or early 80's they likely don't know what they're missing.

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 10:39 PM
Horsemany,


EXACTLY...

Maverick223
December 28, 2009, 10:42 PM
No they don't...Winchester does not have a stainless rifle that isn't fluted (Extreme Weather).I stand corrected, but the point is there are many others that do not have flutes...just not one that suits you. FWIW they don't make a blued one (that I see) with flutes, so perhaps they need to change a few things around (perhaps make the Extreme Weather without flutes and the Shadow with flutes).

Could be that Remington is the biggest of all the firearm manufacturers Cerberus owns, so this is where the most cost cutting has gone on...?Could be...I just hope they don't move on to the others when they are done driving Remington into the ground as Marlin makes really great firearms...for now. :uhoh:

I've not seen a difference in accuracy but the difference in fit and finish is night and day. For the younger generation who never owned a 700 from the 70's or early 80's they likely don't know what they're missing.You nailed it...it is not so much that they are utter crap (getting close though) it is that they have fallen so far from their former position.

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 10:47 PM
The Extreme Weather and the Shadow...neither one needs a fluted barrel.

I guess I'm getting old...and behind the times.

DoubleTapDrew
December 28, 2009, 10:47 PM
This is saddening! My deer rifle is a 700 from the mid 80s and my shotgun is an 870 from the mid 90s and haven't had any problems with either in fit or finish. I hope cerberus isn't lumping them into the "too big to fail" mentality. I don't want to see them go down but they will if they are turning out a shoddy product in such a competitive industry.

MNgunhead
December 28, 2009, 11:15 PM
I can't bash Remington too hard. I've purchase a couple good 700's within the last 5 years, but I did buy a 597 that was probably the biggest junker I've every bought. I traded it in and took a bath on it just to upgrade to a good gun. I got a CZ 452 American and that, my friends, is the most accurate 22 rifle i've ever shot. You get what you pay for.

Maverick223
December 28, 2009, 11:25 PM
The Extreme Weather and the Shadow...neither one needs a fluted barrel.What about others that actually like a fluted barrel? You do realize that it is also possible (but atypical) for a standard taper sporting barrel to be fluted making it lighter than a standard barrel and just as strong (and honestly I don't know why companies don't do that for lightweight hunting rifles)...right?

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 11:43 PM
I'd rather have a fluted barrel than a pencil barrel....we agree on that.


Fluted barrels are stiffer than a round barrel of the same weight, this is why they would be preferred over a "pencil barrel" (like found on many "mountain rifles")

Its not possible for a fluted barrel to be as strong as a round barrel if the outside diameters are the same...you remove metal, you remove rigidity.

http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RealBenefitsBarrelFluting.asp


Direct quote from Lilja's website:
There are two advantages to using a fluted barrel. Improved accuracy is one advantage because of increased barrel stiffness. If we compare a fluted barrel to one that is not fluted, both weighing the same, the fluted barrel is stiffer. This is because the fluted barrel will be of a larger diameter than the unfluted barrel of the same weight and length. Increasing the diameter of a barrel greatly increases its rigidity.

Redneck with a 40
December 28, 2009, 11:45 PM
Someone needs to notify the Army/Marines that they have been using a junk rifle for the last 50 years and continue to do so, lmao......NOT!:neener:

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 11:47 PM
Lots of people have been mislead to believe a fluted barrel is stiffer...

Thats only true if its outside diameter is greater than the round barrel...on the typical hunting rifle this is not the case. They simply flute the barrels, charge us for it...and the only advantage is a lighter rifle.

I myself don't want a 5 pound rifle...I'm perfectly happy with a 7 pound rifle.

As for the people who want fluted barrels on a typical deer rifle...I simply ask why?

Ridgerunner665
December 28, 2009, 11:50 PM
The rifles the Army and USMC get are not exactly "over the counter" Remingtons...they are subjected to inspection and if they fail Remington would lose a multi million dollar contract...

The "over the counter" rifles look the same...but are not subjected to such strict quality control.

mljdeckard
December 29, 2009, 12:29 AM
I know the marine M-40s are run through the custom shop. I haven't talked to army snipers specifically about who does their setup, but I doubt they are out of the box.

Maverick223
December 29, 2009, 12:38 AM
Fluted barrels are stiffer than a round barrel of the same weight, this is why they would be preferred over a "pencil barrel" (like found on many "mountain rifles")Absolutely, they should be standard on any lightweight rifle/carbine as this use would see the greatest benefit IMO.

Its not possible for a fluted barrel to be as strong as a round barrel if the outside diameters are the same...you remove metal, you remove rigidity.That is not entirely true. The stiffness will be reduced with a large enough outside force (no doubt about it), but even with a barrel of the same diameter, the fluting (if done properly) it can actually make the barrel "droop" less under its own weight when it becomes heated. The barrel will heat faster due to the reduced capacitance (simply a function of less material to transmit the heat into), but will also cool faster as it will have greater surface area, thus promoting convection.

Lots of people have been mislead to believe a fluted barrel is stiffer...Lots of people are right...and wrong. As I said above, the barrel *can* be designed to have less flexure under its own weight, thereby making it stiffer under normal conditions (typically barrels only bear the weight of themselves and a small projectile). Some barrel profiles do not work in this manner and are counterproductive (the ones that immediately come to mind is the infamous Rem. triangle, but spirals, rings, and straight/non-tapered fluted barrels also have fewer benefits than a "standard" fluted contour). Ideally you want to maximize the moment of inertia and decrease weight (just like a bridge girder, whose own weight is often the primary load), this serves to reduce weight (especially from the muzzle), whilst retaining necessary material in order to maintain the stiffness.

As for the people who want fluted barrels on a typical deer rifle...I simply ask why?Depending upon the styling...I ask "why not?".

EDIT: If you want to continue this debate start a new thread on how fluting is pointless for the sake of the O.P.

:)

Ridgerunner665
December 29, 2009, 12:41 AM
I can promise you the M24's are not "over the counter" guns...for one thing they are built using a long action (yep...308 in a long action).

You are correct though...the Marines rifles are built in the custom shop, the M24's are built on the same equipment as their "over the counter" guns...but that don't mean they are held to the same standards.

Remington can build a darn fine rifle...when they want to.

Ridgerunner665
December 29, 2009, 12:48 AM
No debate...one more thing to say and I'm going to bed.

typically barrels only bear the weight of themselves and a small projectile

Its not barrel sagging under its own weight I'm worried about....its the barrel flexing under the stress of the bullet being shoved through it.

I'll go along with the barrel makers on this one...barrels of the same diameter, round is stiffer.

Uncle Mike
December 29, 2009, 01:00 AM
You nailed it...it is not so much that they are utter crap (getting close though) it is that they have fallen so far from their former position.

Right...and the prices...oh the horror...the horror!
Honestly, the accuracy has gone to poopy also, as compared to the older model 700's.
We sell 700's that will shoot one hole all day, but it is the exception...the majority don't do as well.

As for the fluted barrels...purely a marketing thing. Most of these rifles have flutes that, physically do nothing. The CDL with the standard taper, fluted barrel, blue, looked pretty good, and we sold everyone we had...funny, we are having a difficult time moving the plain ol' cdl's...the prices are just too high!

Remington has just cut corners in the effort to save cash, but those corners are what made a Remington....a Remington.

Maverick223
December 29, 2009, 01:20 AM
Its not barrel sagging under its own weight I'm worried about....its the barrel flexing under the stress of the bullet being shoved through it.That would take hours of calculation, and a barrel in hand for precise measurements, both of which I am not up for (at least tonight); however I believe it would still be a bit stronger. Anyways, the primary benefit is mostly the strength to weight ratio, at that should be agreed upon by everyone.

As for the fluted barrels...purely a marketing thing.I admit that is the fundamental reason that manufacturers offer them...but done properly there are several benefits.

Remington has just cut corners in the effort to save cash, but those corners are what made a Remington....a Remington.Exactly, if you can't have good accuracy, or a good overall fit and finish, nor good CS...and you pay as much as rifles that offer one or all of the aforementioned...what do you gain? I hope to purchase another (new) Remington in the future (and hope they still exist for that to occur), but if things don't change for the better, I see no spot in the safe, nor funds in the piggybank for one.

:)

Handgunner
December 29, 2009, 05:37 AM
You get what you pay for

If that were the case, this thread and many others like it wouldn't exist. :)

I have wanted a 700 adl/bdl since I was a kid. After owning a new 870, :cuss: I'll be looking at Browning.

Ridgerunner665
December 29, 2009, 07:41 AM
That would take hours of calculation, and a barrel in hand for precise measurements, both of which I am not up for (at least tonight)

This guy was up for it... http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/RealBenefitsBarrelFluting.asp

Maverick223
December 29, 2009, 12:27 PM
This guy was up for it...Not really, he did a lot of calculations, but didn't do any for the load on the barrel as a result of the projectile, nor the reduced weight at the muzzle of the barrel making the barrel have greater stiffness. All of his other calculations look to be correct.

:)

Art Eatman
December 29, 2009, 12:34 PM
Pretty much wandering off from the OP's gripe...

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