Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 28, 2009, 08:41 PM
True? That's like saying cleaning a rifle's bore (making it primed and ready for use) lowers its value - to me anyway. Oh well, I'm guilty of this in any event.
Sharpening a bayo lowers the collector value?
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Beelzy
December 28, 2009, 09:44 PM
True.....sharpening a dull Bayo is like cleaning the tarnish off an old coin.
Not good for $$$$
On a side note, Bayos were left dull on purpose to make a nasty leaky hole. So much so
that certain military units during WWII would court martial soldiers for putting edges on
them.
Not good for $$$$
On a side note, Bayos were left dull on purpose to make a nasty leaky hole. So much so
that certain military units during WWII would court martial soldiers for putting edges on
them.
Broken11b
December 28, 2009, 09:45 PM
I can see it lowering the value a little bit. Military bayonets are supposed to be dull-ish. razor sharp blades allow the wound channel to close after the bayonet is removed. dull bayonets cause more damage. And dull is how they were made and issued. However, as long as youre not grinding down the blade to a fraction of what it used to be, theres nothing wrong with the clean lines on an inspection ready bayonet.
gun addict
December 28, 2009, 09:45 PM
yup, bayonets were never meant to be shaprened like combat knifes, sharpening them would definately devalue them
DAVIDSDIVAD
December 29, 2009, 03:55 AM
True.....sharpening a dull Bayo is like cleaning the tarnish off an old coin.
Not good for $$$$
On a side note, Bayos were left dull on purpose to make a nasty leaky hole. So much so
that certain military units during WWII would court martial soldiers for putting edges on
them.
Allow me to kindly point out that this is BS.
An extremely sharp bayonet is going to be able to separate more tissue via smooth cutting than a dull bayonet would be able to rip, and the more tissue you separate, the more bleeding occurs.
A good stabbing via bayonet is simply a good stabbing. I'm not sure a few extra ml of blood is going to make any difference at all.
Silly billies :rolleyes:
Not good for $$$$
On a side note, Bayos were left dull on purpose to make a nasty leaky hole. So much so
that certain military units during WWII would court martial soldiers for putting edges on
them.
Allow me to kindly point out that this is BS.
An extremely sharp bayonet is going to be able to separate more tissue via smooth cutting than a dull bayonet would be able to rip, and the more tissue you separate, the more bleeding occurs.
A good stabbing via bayonet is simply a good stabbing. I'm not sure a few extra ml of blood is going to make any difference at all.
Silly billies :rolleyes:
Sav .250
December 29, 2009, 07:49 AM
Sharp is no doubt better than dull as far as it being an offensive weapon goes but "original condition" is what collectors of such things like.
JoergS
December 29, 2009, 08:15 AM
Most collectors want things as original as possible. Ideally, the bayo still is in the original grease and accompanied by the original issue paperwork.
I think even restoring a collector's item will reduce the value in most cases. I have seen some (really only a handful) restoration jobs, done by experts, that are an exception. The restoration needs to be visible, so you see what part is original and what is the work of the craftsman.
Most bayos don't have much value anyway, but can make great tools and weapons. In this case it doesn't matter what you do to it. Put an edge on it, shorten it, attach a different handle. That is the charm of surplus weapons.
Greetings
Jörg
I think even restoring a collector's item will reduce the value in most cases. I have seen some (really only a handful) restoration jobs, done by experts, that are an exception. The restoration needs to be visible, so you see what part is original and what is the work of the craftsman.
Most bayos don't have much value anyway, but can make great tools and weapons. In this case it doesn't matter what you do to it. Put an edge on it, shorten it, attach a different handle. That is the charm of surplus weapons.
Greetings
Jörg
Todd A
December 29, 2009, 10:10 AM
True? That's like saying cleaning a rifle's bore (making it primed and ready for use) lowers its value - to me anyway. Oh well, I'm guilty of this in any event.
Yes..If you sharpen a bayonet it will loose value. A "period correct" (a topic that could fill a book) sharpened bayonet is still valueable for most collectors.
Bayos were left dull on purpose to make a nasty leaky hole.
You can send me every sharpened WWI German bayonet you come across.:D
Whether a bayonet is suposed to be sharp depends on its era,and which country issued it. In the above case Germany expected the issuing depot,or soldier, to sharpen the bayonets at time of issue.Finding a WWI German bayonet that has not been sharpened is a great find.
Yes..If you sharpen a bayonet it will loose value. A "period correct" (a topic that could fill a book) sharpened bayonet is still valueable for most collectors.
Bayos were left dull on purpose to make a nasty leaky hole.
You can send me every sharpened WWI German bayonet you come across.:D
Whether a bayonet is suposed to be sharp depends on its era,and which country issued it. In the above case Germany expected the issuing depot,or soldier, to sharpen the bayonets at time of issue.Finding a WWI German bayonet that has not been sharpened is a great find.
Smokey Joe
December 29, 2009, 11:36 AM
Dr. Tad--You saidThat's like saying cleaning a rifle's bore (making it primed and ready for use) lowers its value May I respectfully disagree--it's not the same thing. When you clean a rifle's bore you don't change anything about the original make-up of the rifle--you merely remove cosmoline/powder fouling/spiderwebs/what have you. When you sharpen a vintage bayonet that you bought unsharpened, you are removing some of the bayonet's metal, i.e. fundamentally changing it.
As noted above, collectors like things in original condition--the more original, and the more documentation, the better. If the bayo in question is in any way a "collectors' item" I'd urge you to leave the edge alone--just clean the cosmoline off it, but not enough to damage whatever finish it has. Now, OTOH, if the bayo in question is one you want to USE for something, as opposed to just COLLECTING it, then sharpen away, modify as you please.
Last time I looked, there was no sign in front of MY house, anyway, saying "Smokey Joe's Museum." With a very few exceptions, something I can't actually use I don't keep. But that's me. There are plenty of people out there who ARE running their own museum, and those people are what make "collector value" into a meaningful phrase.
As noted above, collectors like things in original condition--the more original, and the more documentation, the better. If the bayo in question is in any way a "collectors' item" I'd urge you to leave the edge alone--just clean the cosmoline off it, but not enough to damage whatever finish it has. Now, OTOH, if the bayo in question is one you want to USE for something, as opposed to just COLLECTING it, then sharpen away, modify as you please.
Last time I looked, there was no sign in front of MY house, anyway, saying "Smokey Joe's Museum." With a very few exceptions, something I can't actually use I don't keep. But that's me. There are plenty of people out there who ARE running their own museum, and those people are what make "collector value" into a meaningful phrase.
zxcvbob
December 29, 2009, 11:45 AM
I've been thinking about ordering a surplus bayonet -- about $20 -- and sharpening it to use for a knife. Will they even take and keep an edge, or are they made from soft tough steel? I think the ones I was looking at online were from Victorinox.
rcmodel
December 29, 2009, 12:43 PM
Bayonets generally make poor knives.
They are almost always very thick in the spine, with a thick taper to the edge to give them strength.
They don't cut or slice like a good knife even if sharpened, because they are just too thick.
rc
They are almost always very thick in the spine, with a thick taper to the edge to give them strength.
They don't cut or slice like a good knife even if sharpened, because they are just too thick.
rc
DAVIDSDIVAD
December 29, 2009, 12:51 PM
RC is right.
However, they can be made into great stuff.
I've got a Turkish M1935 that I turned into a mean thing with the help of a belt sander, and a lot of patience.
However, they can be made into great stuff.
I've got a Turkish M1935 that I turned into a mean thing with the help of a belt sander, and a lot of patience.
Beelzy
December 29, 2009, 01:26 PM
Uh no.
A clean cut from a sharp knife can close itself and one bleeds less. The reverse applies
to a dull blade.
A clean cut from a sharp knife can close itself and one bleeds less. The reverse applies
to a dull blade.
CWL
December 29, 2009, 01:44 PM
Uh no.
A clean cut from a sharp knife can close itself and one bleeds less. The reverse applies
to a dull blade.
Really?
So swords, spears, fighting knives should be duller to work better? The Samurai were horrible weapons-makers? Pakistan makes the best knives? Too sharp, and the guy you just gut-stabbed will get back up and smile at you?
Amazing what some people will believe...
A clean cut from a sharp knife can close itself and one bleeds less. The reverse applies
to a dull blade.
Really?
So swords, spears, fighting knives should be duller to work better? The Samurai were horrible weapons-makers? Pakistan makes the best knives? Too sharp, and the guy you just gut-stabbed will get back up and smile at you?
Amazing what some people will believe...
elmerfudd
December 29, 2009, 01:58 PM
That's like saying cleaning a rifle's bore (making it primed and ready for use) lowers its value - to me anyway.
Wait a second, I saw on Pawn Stars that an antique gun is worth double if you can actually fire it. There's no way they'd just do that for TV is there? After all, I know that if I were laying down $3000 for an antique Brown Bess, I'd want to know that some fat hillbilly had loaded it up and pulled the trigger.
Wait a second, I saw on Pawn Stars that an antique gun is worth double if you can actually fire it. There's no way they'd just do that for TV is there? After all, I know that if I were laying down $3000 for an antique Brown Bess, I'd want to know that some fat hillbilly had loaded it up and pulled the trigger.
DAVIDSDIVAD
December 29, 2009, 02:10 PM
Uh no.
A clean cut from a sharp knife can close itself and one bleeds less. The reverse applies
to a dull blade.
How exactly does a cleanly cut wound magically close itself?
I mean, according to the physiology classes I've taken, there's no such thing as a "super fast clotting factor for clean cuts."
Are you proposing that the flesh slaps closed and re-seals itself like play dough? If so, please allow me to LOL heartily in your general direction.
The sharper edge is able to cut more tissue (and more blood vessels) with less force than the dull edge.
A clean cut from a sharp knife can close itself and one bleeds less. The reverse applies
to a dull blade.
How exactly does a cleanly cut wound magically close itself?
I mean, according to the physiology classes I've taken, there's no such thing as a "super fast clotting factor for clean cuts."
Are you proposing that the flesh slaps closed and re-seals itself like play dough? If so, please allow me to LOL heartily in your general direction.
The sharper edge is able to cut more tissue (and more blood vessels) with less force than the dull edge.
rcmodel
December 29, 2009, 02:14 PM
I agree completely.
Nothing scares me worse then a cut from a razor sharp knife or broad-head arrow.
Because you simply can't get it to stop bleeding.
Bleeding from a cut from a dull blade is easily stopped because a lot of the veins & tissue are already crushed shut and the blood clots easily.
rc
Nothing scares me worse then a cut from a razor sharp knife or broad-head arrow.
Because you simply can't get it to stop bleeding.
Bleeding from a cut from a dull blade is easily stopped because a lot of the veins & tissue are already crushed shut and the blood clots easily.
rc
FRJ
December 29, 2009, 04:51 PM
I'm sorry but all this crap about a dull blade leaving a better wound channel than a sharp one is just that CRAP!!!!!!! A dull blade will actually push blood vessels out of the way as well as internal organs. A razor sharp blade on the other hand cuts on contact and creates a wound that wont stop bleeding due to the fact that the components that are necessary to cause the blood to coagulate are not activated in a smooth wound. If you bought it to use it sharpen it. If you bought it to look at it don't waste your time sharpening.FRJ
gun addict
December 29, 2009, 05:19 PM
Most collectors want things as original as possible. Ideally, the bayo still is in the original grease and accompanied by the original issue paperwork.
I think even restoring a collector's item will reduce the value in most cases. I have seen some (really only a handful) restoration jobs, done by experts, that are an exception. The restoration needs to be visible, so you see what part is original and what is the work of the craftsman.
Most bayos don't have much value anyway, but can make great tools and weapons. In this case it doesn't matter what you do to it. Put an edge on it, shorten it, attach a different handle. That is the charm of surplus weapons.
Greetings
Jörg
not true on Bayonets not being collectible, a good M39 bayonet or rare Gewher 98 butcher blade bayonet would fetch in alot of money
I think even restoring a collector's item will reduce the value in most cases. I have seen some (really only a handful) restoration jobs, done by experts, that are an exception. The restoration needs to be visible, so you see what part is original and what is the work of the craftsman.
Most bayos don't have much value anyway, but can make great tools and weapons. In this case it doesn't matter what you do to it. Put an edge on it, shorten it, attach a different handle. That is the charm of surplus weapons.
Greetings
Jörg
not true on Bayonets not being collectible, a good M39 bayonet or rare Gewher 98 butcher blade bayonet would fetch in alot of money
rcmodel
December 29, 2009, 05:23 PM
That guy must not have priced U.S. WWII bayonets lately!!!!
Some of the really good & unsharpened ones from rare manufactures are worth more then the rifle or carbine they went on!
Sharpened, not so much!
rc
Some of the really good & unsharpened ones from rare manufactures are worth more then the rifle or carbine they went on!
Sharpened, not so much!
rc
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 29, 2009, 06:49 PM
Well, the two that I sharpened are both British 1907s. I bought them for actual use as short swords / dirks, as last ditch self-defense of the homestead here. To me, an unsharpened knife is as useless at teets on a boar hog.
I don't know what king of hare-brained doctrines about dull bayos that some military commanders may have come up with, but I guarantee that I want mine SHARP - sharp cuts, sharp stabs; sharp penetrates easily; dull does none of the above.
In any event, I guess I lowered the value significantly, which is a bit of a shame, since these can run upwards of $75 at times, but hey, I bought them to use and play with, not store gathering dust for years then re-sell, so to each his own I guess. However, doubt I'll sharpen any more.
I don't know what king of hare-brained doctrines about dull bayos that some military commanders may have come up with, but I guarantee that I want mine SHARP - sharp cuts, sharp stabs; sharp penetrates easily; dull does none of the above.
In any event, I guess I lowered the value significantly, which is a bit of a shame, since these can run upwards of $75 at times, but hey, I bought them to use and play with, not store gathering dust for years then re-sell, so to each his own I guess. However, doubt I'll sharpen any more.
SlamFire1
December 29, 2009, 07:14 PM
I would expect knife nuts have a complusion to sharpen things. ;)
However guys, you remove that dull square edge on your original bayonet, you have removed a whole bunch of collector value.
The same thing for swords. The military dulled their swords between wars, to avoid/reduce training accidents.
A pre WWII Cavalry trooper told me of a training fatality during sword practice. They carried the Patton saber. A trooper fell off his horse, and lost control of his sword. It might have been attached with a sword knot . As the trooper fell, the point ended up under the guy’s armpit. When the trooper hit the ground, the sword impaled the poor guy.
In the Oxford book on military short stories, there is a personal account from a General reminiscing on his early career.
As a junior officer in the cavalry, he was so enthusiastic/bellicose he sharpened his sword.
First day mounted sword practice, he cut off the ear of his horse.
Oops!
My Dad brought back Japanese bayonets, they were sharp. I think they were issued sharp.
However guys, you remove that dull square edge on your original bayonet, you have removed a whole bunch of collector value.
The same thing for swords. The military dulled their swords between wars, to avoid/reduce training accidents.
A pre WWII Cavalry trooper told me of a training fatality during sword practice. They carried the Patton saber. A trooper fell off his horse, and lost control of his sword. It might have been attached with a sword knot . As the trooper fell, the point ended up under the guy’s armpit. When the trooper hit the ground, the sword impaled the poor guy.
In the Oxford book on military short stories, there is a personal account from a General reminiscing on his early career.
As a junior officer in the cavalry, he was so enthusiastic/bellicose he sharpened his sword.
First day mounted sword practice, he cut off the ear of his horse.
Oops!
My Dad brought back Japanese bayonets, they were sharp. I think they were issued sharp.
CWL
December 29, 2009, 07:40 PM
My Dad brought back Japanese bayonets, they were sharp. I think they were issued sharp.
Japanese soldiers used live prisoners for bayonet practice...
Japanese soldiers used live prisoners for bayonet practice...
gun addict
December 29, 2009, 08:16 PM
they used alot more than just prisoners for bayonet practice
BHP FAN
December 29, 2009, 08:47 PM
...like Phillipino civilians.
CWL
December 30, 2009, 02:30 AM
I meant POW prisoners, not jailed convicts.
DAVIDSDIVAD
December 30, 2009, 04:36 AM
A razor sharp blade on the other hand cuts on contact and creates a wound that wont stop bleeding due to the fact that the components that are necessary to cause the blood to coagulate are not activated in a smooth wound. If you bought it to use it sharpen it. If you bought it to look at it don't waste your time sharpening.FRJ
Where, in the world, do you guys get this stuff? Honestly, I have no idea. The amount of sheer misinformation, in todays day and age.
The cells are still disrupted, they still release their contents, causing the healing process to begin.
Jeez.
The same thing for swords. The military dulled their swords between wars, to avoid/reduce training accidents.
A pre WWII Cavalry trooper told me of a training fatality during sword practice. They carried the Patton saber. A trooper fell off his horse, and lost control of his sword. It might have been attached with a sword knot . As the trooper fell, the point ended up under the guy’s armpit. When the trooper hit the ground, the sword impaled the poor guy.
How, praytell, would the military effectivly dull a sword without removing significant amounts of material from the edge? How would they accomplish this without ruining all of the swords?
How would a dull sword have prevented that guy from being impaled on his horse?
A little critical thinking folks, that's all it takes.
Where, in the world, do you guys get this stuff? Honestly, I have no idea. The amount of sheer misinformation, in todays day and age.
The cells are still disrupted, they still release their contents, causing the healing process to begin.
Jeez.
The same thing for swords. The military dulled their swords between wars, to avoid/reduce training accidents.
A pre WWII Cavalry trooper told me of a training fatality during sword practice. They carried the Patton saber. A trooper fell off his horse, and lost control of his sword. It might have been attached with a sword knot . As the trooper fell, the point ended up under the guy’s armpit. When the trooper hit the ground, the sword impaled the poor guy.
How, praytell, would the military effectivly dull a sword without removing significant amounts of material from the edge? How would they accomplish this without ruining all of the swords?
How would a dull sword have prevented that guy from being impaled on his horse?
A little critical thinking folks, that's all it takes.
gun addict
December 30, 2009, 04:37 AM
i emailed a good doctor/firearm enthueist friend of mine asking his professional medical opinioin on dull vs sharp bayonet and here is the reply
....Good question with more than maybe a standard answer. Logical or common sense would lead you to think that a sharp bayonet is better, but it is not. The bayonet is not a replacement for a knife and meant not to cut but to pierce. Bayonets are unsharpened for the purpose of greater tissue disruption and the inability to appropriately mend the wound. A clean cut will create easier removal and repair. An unsharpened bayonet causes more damage with penetration. Greater chance of infection, Breaking/fragmenting bones rather than cutting, etc. I can go on, but I think you understand the answer.
anyway maybe this will clear things up abit, run a bayonet into a carcase such as pig and you'll see it will stick through even if unsharpened (don't ask how i know).
for the OP that bought the 1907 bayonet and sharpened them, a good machete would do if not perform better. To each his own i suppose
....Good question with more than maybe a standard answer. Logical or common sense would lead you to think that a sharp bayonet is better, but it is not. The bayonet is not a replacement for a knife and meant not to cut but to pierce. Bayonets are unsharpened for the purpose of greater tissue disruption and the inability to appropriately mend the wound. A clean cut will create easier removal and repair. An unsharpened bayonet causes more damage with penetration. Greater chance of infection, Breaking/fragmenting bones rather than cutting, etc. I can go on, but I think you understand the answer.
anyway maybe this will clear things up abit, run a bayonet into a carcase such as pig and you'll see it will stick through even if unsharpened (don't ask how i know).
for the OP that bought the 1907 bayonet and sharpened them, a good machete would do if not perform better. To each his own i suppose
DAVIDSDIVAD
December 30, 2009, 04:42 AM
Honestly, I can understand an MD or DO thinking like that.
He's correct about a clean cut being easier to stitch, but who gives a rat's being about "repairing" and "infection" with a bayonet wound?
Either it's a good stab, or it's not. You're more likely to get a good stab with a sharp bayonet that doesn't get hung up on tissues.
He's correct about a clean cut being easier to stitch, but who gives a rat's being about "repairing" and "infection" with a bayonet wound?
Either it's a good stab, or it's not. You're more likely to get a good stab with a sharp bayonet that doesn't get hung up on tissues.
Aka Zero
December 30, 2009, 09:24 AM
I sharpened my bayo, and a friends.
Cetme bayos. good stuff, near shaving sharp. and good for making holes in steel computer cases. Also some $10 czech bayo got a nice looking convex grind.
Ak bayos try to be sharp. have a thinner edge.
And I go for sharp any day for wounding. if you want hard to stitch, get a sawback or serrated edge.
Cetme bayos. good stuff, near shaving sharp. and good for making holes in steel computer cases. Also some $10 czech bayo got a nice looking convex grind.
Ak bayos try to be sharp. have a thinner edge.
And I go for sharp any day for wounding. if you want hard to stitch, get a sawback or serrated edge.
Beelzy
December 30, 2009, 11:26 AM
LOL!!!
Some guys here must have never cut themselves apparently.
Clean cut = Clean wound.......Nasty cut = Nasty wound. It's called Physics.
Some guys here must have never cut themselves apparently.
Clean cut = Clean wound.......Nasty cut = Nasty wound. It's called Physics.
DAVIDSDIVAD
December 30, 2009, 01:30 PM
No, the word you're searching for is Physiology, not physics. :)
Limeyfellow
December 30, 2009, 02:07 PM
Aka Zero: And I go for sharp any day for wounding. if you want hard to stitch, get a sawback or serrated edge.
For a great deal of the 20th century that would have had you court martialed and shot by your own side. Still the serrated edges of today have more to do with overcoming body armour than anything else and they were used for cutting posts by combat engineers for the past 150 years. Still I not seen the change in treaty that made it legal for say the new bayones to have serrations, so perhaps someone knows.
For a great deal of the 20th century that would have had you court martialed and shot by your own side. Still the serrated edges of today have more to do with overcoming body armour than anything else and they were used for cutting posts by combat engineers for the past 150 years. Still I not seen the change in treaty that made it legal for say the new bayones to have serrations, so perhaps someone knows.
gun addict
December 30, 2009, 03:43 PM
i don't think the seratted blade bayonets were ever outlawed, most of those were used for sawing but God helps the WWI German soldier who was caught with one.
CWL
December 30, 2009, 05:28 PM
LOL!!!
Some guys here must have never cut themselves apparently.
Clean cut = Clean wound.......Nasty cut = Nasty wound. It's called Physics.
Cutting your finger while slicing baloney isn't the same as getting several inches of steel shoved into your gut.
BTW, did any food you ever cut seal itself right back up because your knife was too sharp?
Some guys here must have never cut themselves apparently.
Clean cut = Clean wound.......Nasty cut = Nasty wound. It's called Physics.
Cutting your finger while slicing baloney isn't the same as getting several inches of steel shoved into your gut.
BTW, did any food you ever cut seal itself right back up because your knife was too sharp?
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
December 30, 2009, 05:52 PM
i emailed a good doctor/firearm enthueist friend of mine asking his professional medical opinioin on dull vs sharp bayonet and here is the reply
....Good question with more than maybe a standard answer. Logical or common sense would lead you to think that a sharp bayonet is better, but it is not. The bayonet is not a replacement for a knife and meant not to cut but to pierce. Bayonets are unsharpened for the purpose of greater tissue disruption and the inability to appropriately mend the wound. A clean cut will create easier removal and repair. An unsharpened bayonet causes more damage with penetration. Greater chance of infection, Breaking/fragmenting bones rather than cutting, etc. I can go on, but I think you understand the answer.
No offense, but the good doctor doesn't know what in the heck he's talking about, I'm afraid. This is absurd, folks. Hell, if dull is so great, then why not just make bayos in the shape of bowling balls or phallises - that'd do even MORE damage I suppose. Good grief, man! :p
Yes, I've cut myself many times, and if it's a sharp knife, then (a) it's far more likely to happen accidentally, and (b) it's far worse when it does happen - the cut is deeper, longer and bleeds more.
I'm sorry, I'm not buying the intentionally-dull for combat bayo being a good idea for one second. I don't doubt that there were some incompetent generals and non-mil commanders along the way who actually believed this and ordered this, but I do know it makes a weapon much less effective to be dull. I much rather be bayoed 3 times with a dull one than once with a sharp one. Far better to go all the way through pushing major organs and arteries out of the way than slicing right through them - any day of the week, from any angle, under any circumstances.
....Good question with more than maybe a standard answer. Logical or common sense would lead you to think that a sharp bayonet is better, but it is not. The bayonet is not a replacement for a knife and meant not to cut but to pierce. Bayonets are unsharpened for the purpose of greater tissue disruption and the inability to appropriately mend the wound. A clean cut will create easier removal and repair. An unsharpened bayonet causes more damage with penetration. Greater chance of infection, Breaking/fragmenting bones rather than cutting, etc. I can go on, but I think you understand the answer.
No offense, but the good doctor doesn't know what in the heck he's talking about, I'm afraid. This is absurd, folks. Hell, if dull is so great, then why not just make bayos in the shape of bowling balls or phallises - that'd do even MORE damage I suppose. Good grief, man! :p
Yes, I've cut myself many times, and if it's a sharp knife, then (a) it's far more likely to happen accidentally, and (b) it's far worse when it does happen - the cut is deeper, longer and bleeds more.
I'm sorry, I'm not buying the intentionally-dull for combat bayo being a good idea for one second. I don't doubt that there were some incompetent generals and non-mil commanders along the way who actually believed this and ordered this, but I do know it makes a weapon much less effective to be dull. I much rather be bayoed 3 times with a dull one than once with a sharp one. Far better to go all the way through pushing major organs and arteries out of the way than slicing right through them - any day of the week, from any angle, under any circumstances.
gun addict
December 30, 2009, 06:28 PM
well, all i can tell you know is that the bayonet is essentially a thrusting weapon and the point does not need to be razor sharp to be effective, however since you are entitled to your own opinoin
RONSERESURPLUS
December 30, 2009, 07:02 PM
Hello all RON L here
This thread has kinda got off Track, Yes a Bayonete or many other thiungs will be Less in Value if someone tried to clean it up, Sharpen it or in some other way changed it in look and feel! Many Fools "Clean up" an older Knife or Bayonete with a Wire Brush or worse a Grinding wheel and burn the temper out of the Blade or mark it up with all sorts of GRIND MARKS? Many a Valuabe Knife, sword or Bayonete has be destroyed in value in this way, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TURN OFF THE GRINDERS and LOSE THE WIRE BRUSHES! LOL
OH and for those that Don't know, Yes a Bayonete was Left Dull on Purpose as that was more Damage and Left a worse wound that would not heal right or be closed easily! I don't care what the MD's say they were not in the trench!
This thread has kinda got off Track, Yes a Bayonete or many other thiungs will be Less in Value if someone tried to clean it up, Sharpen it or in some other way changed it in look and feel! Many Fools "Clean up" an older Knife or Bayonete with a Wire Brush or worse a Grinding wheel and burn the temper out of the Blade or mark it up with all sorts of GRIND MARKS? Many a Valuabe Knife, sword or Bayonete has be destroyed in value in this way, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, TURN OFF THE GRINDERS and LOSE THE WIRE BRUSHES! LOL
OH and for those that Don't know, Yes a Bayonete was Left Dull on Purpose as that was more Damage and Left a worse wound that would not heal right or be closed easily! I don't care what the MD's say they were not in the trench!
SlamFire1
December 30, 2009, 08:11 PM
How, praytell, would the military effectivly dull a sword without removing significant amounts of material from the edge? How would they accomplish this without ruining all of the swords?
Ask that question nicely at http://swordforum.com/ and the gentlemen there will give you the straight skinny.
You will find, that dull swords were such the norm, that units went into battle with dull swords. The British, after having a few scandals on this, they created a regulation which mandated that departing troops had to sharpen their swords before being inserted into theater.
With the exception of Japanese swords, if the sword you are handling has been sharpened, 99% of the time it was done after it was surplused.
(Well maybe 95% of the time. I can tell the difference between field sharpening on my British Infantry swords and civilian sharpening. I can think of two British Infantry swords I own that were properly field sharpened)
How would a dull sword have prevented that guy from being impaled on his horse?
It would not. That was just an example, and a very rare personnel testimony that training accidents occurred, and that fatalities occurred in sword training. I thought I would share this with the forum. Maybe it was inappropriate. The Patton sword was a thrusting weapon. Anyone falling on a point would have suffered a bad wound. I own one British DP sword that the point was ground back to round. I have handled others.
Ask that question nicely at http://swordforum.com/ and the gentlemen there will give you the straight skinny.
You will find, that dull swords were such the norm, that units went into battle with dull swords. The British, after having a few scandals on this, they created a regulation which mandated that departing troops had to sharpen their swords before being inserted into theater.
With the exception of Japanese swords, if the sword you are handling has been sharpened, 99% of the time it was done after it was surplused.
(Well maybe 95% of the time. I can tell the difference between field sharpening on my British Infantry swords and civilian sharpening. I can think of two British Infantry swords I own that were properly field sharpened)
How would a dull sword have prevented that guy from being impaled on his horse?
It would not. That was just an example, and a very rare personnel testimony that training accidents occurred, and that fatalities occurred in sword training. I thought I would share this with the forum. Maybe it was inappropriate. The Patton sword was a thrusting weapon. Anyone falling on a point would have suffered a bad wound. I own one British DP sword that the point was ground back to round. I have handled others.
SlamFire1
December 30, 2009, 08:20 PM
i don't think the seratted blade bayonets were ever outlawed, most of those were used for sawing but God helps the WWI German soldier who was caught with one.
I own a sawback Swiss bayonet and a German Bayonet, both issued to Pioneer troops.
As in all wars, the British were looking for “atrocities” to claim what evil brutes the Germans were. Dehumanizing of the enemy occurs in all wars. Sawback bayonets became an atrocity myth for the British.
I do know, having read enough personal accounts, that Germans caught with sawback bayonets were shot on the spot.
Shooting of prisoners were surprising common, by all sides.
I much rather be bayoed 3 times with a dull one than once with a sharp one. Far better to go all the way through pushing major organs and arteries out of the way than slicing right through them - any day of the week, from any angle, under any circumstances.
Ouch!, three times!
Doc, take any dull bayonet you have, mount it on a rifle, and go bayonet cardboard, seat cushions, etc. It will go through. It won't slice as well as a sharp one, but it will poke through a human.
My Russian bayonets have ends shaped like screw drivers. Not particularly sharp, but they did go through Germans in winter coats.
I own a sawback Swiss bayonet and a German Bayonet, both issued to Pioneer troops.
As in all wars, the British were looking for “atrocities” to claim what evil brutes the Germans were. Dehumanizing of the enemy occurs in all wars. Sawback bayonets became an atrocity myth for the British.
I do know, having read enough personal accounts, that Germans caught with sawback bayonets were shot on the spot.
Shooting of prisoners were surprising common, by all sides.
I much rather be bayoed 3 times with a dull one than once with a sharp one. Far better to go all the way through pushing major organs and arteries out of the way than slicing right through them - any day of the week, from any angle, under any circumstances.
Ouch!, three times!
Doc, take any dull bayonet you have, mount it on a rifle, and go bayonet cardboard, seat cushions, etc. It will go through. It won't slice as well as a sharp one, but it will poke through a human.
My Russian bayonets have ends shaped like screw drivers. Not particularly sharp, but they did go through Germans in winter coats.
BHP FAN
December 30, 2009, 08:37 PM
...and,they'll split bone, like a chisel.I don't think they were ever used as screw drivers.
JTW Jr.
December 30, 2009, 09:16 PM
Yes, I've cut myself many times, and if it's a sharp knife, then (a) it's far more likely to happen accidentally, and (b) it's far worse when it does happen - the cut is deeper, longer and bleeds more.
A: A sharper knife is a safer knife , it takes less effort to use , and is more predictable. Many are not used to using a sharp knife and instead have to work at cutting something with their dull knife.
B: Longer , perhaps , deeper , perhaps , bleeds more , depends , in most cases a sharp knife will cut cleanly and allow the wound to close and heal faster. I am speaking about a cut , not a stab wound.
Now if we could only make the end users as sharp as the knife itself can be, then accidents wouldn't happen , though in most cases , they are not accidents , but are more due to negligence or inadequate use.
A: A sharper knife is a safer knife , it takes less effort to use , and is more predictable. Many are not used to using a sharp knife and instead have to work at cutting something with their dull knife.
B: Longer , perhaps , deeper , perhaps , bleeds more , depends , in most cases a sharp knife will cut cleanly and allow the wound to close and heal faster. I am speaking about a cut , not a stab wound.
Now if we could only make the end users as sharp as the knife itself can be, then accidents wouldn't happen , though in most cases , they are not accidents , but are more due to negligence or inadequate use.
Baba Louie
December 30, 2009, 11:34 PM
Like a NIB unfired Colt Python, or a virginal, pristine Randall Made blade #(name your favorite model) that has never felt sharpening steel touch the edge, apparently some people will pay more for such objects. I've never met one of those wealthy individuals yet myself, mind you. :rolleyes:
I've always read about combat troops sharpening their blades before the big landing, etc... may be as a way to not think for a bit, may be as a way to stay alive should the need arise, or maybe to upset future collectors? :D
So yeah, for some, leave it be and have fun with owning it. For others, since it belongs to you, have fun using it. Let your kids or grandkids worry about taking it to Antiques Roadshow and cursing you or loving you as a result of your actions. ;)
I've always read about combat troops sharpening their blades before the big landing, etc... may be as a way to not think for a bit, may be as a way to stay alive should the need arise, or maybe to upset future collectors? :D
So yeah, for some, leave it be and have fun with owning it. For others, since it belongs to you, have fun using it. Let your kids or grandkids worry about taking it to Antiques Roadshow and cursing you or loving you as a result of your actions. ;)
Rmfcasey
December 31, 2009, 10:23 AM
I think a sharp edge would allow the blade to go through the heavy clothing of a soldier. I also think a blade type bayonet would do more damage than a spike type especially if the gun is twisted or levered in the wound.
Rmfcasey
Rmfcasey
wittzo
December 31, 2009, 05:11 PM
One of my freinds was in the Marines at the beginning of the current war with Iraq. They didn't issue him a Ka-bar, they didn't give anyone Ka-Bars, they were to use their bayonets as utility knives to cut rope and stuff. They had to buy their own Ka-Bars and Gerber Multi-Tools and pocket knives out of their own money. Luckily, my other friend was in the MSNG, they issued Eotech HOLOsights, M-4's, and Gerber Multi-tools out of state funds. He felt sorry for the Marines when he worked with them on joint task forces.
amd6547
December 31, 2009, 06:41 PM
I recently bought a bayonet for my M1 carbine. The bayonet was USGI issue, and had been rebuilt to like new condition. It came extremely sharp, with a point like a needle. Certainly the sharpest bayonet I have ever owned.
TimboKhan
December 31, 2009, 06:48 PM
One of my freinds was in the Marines at the beginning of the current war with Iraq. They didn't issue him a Ka-bar, they didn't give anyone Ka-Bars, they were to use their bayonets as utility knives to cut rope and stuff. They had to buy their own Ka-Bars and Gerber Multi-Tools and pocket knives out of their own money
I was never issued anything cool, and I had to buy my own Ka-Bar. We were not "expected" to use our bayonets for anything. In fact, about the only thing they did get used for was mumbelty-peg or this game called Stretch.
To the point of whether or not bayonets are supposed to be dull, sharp, tipped with a laser or whatever, I submit this to you all: No soldier since perhaps Vietnam has given one hoot about his bayonet. They aren't dull because of any mandate from on high, they are dull because no one wants to take the time or put in the effort to sharpen them. Why? A good pocketknife is infinitely more useful than a bayonet, and there are better fighting knives out there. In the unlikely event that someone would lock bayonets and charge, it really doesn't matter if they are sharp or dull because all you want to do is stick someone. Rod-type bayonets had no edges and accomplished this feat with no problem, so why wouldn't a pointy, but dull, knife-type bayonet fulfill that task just as well? The truth of the matter for me was that my bayonet was nothing more than a nuisance.
Now, I can't speak historically on bayonets. Perhaps at one point there was considerably more thought and respect given to the average bayonet than what I witnessed, but I believe that modern warriors eschew the bayonet as nothing more than a PITA, with absolutely no thought given to dullness or sharpness and the impact thereof.
I was never issued anything cool, and I had to buy my own Ka-Bar. We were not "expected" to use our bayonets for anything. In fact, about the only thing they did get used for was mumbelty-peg or this game called Stretch.
To the point of whether or not bayonets are supposed to be dull, sharp, tipped with a laser or whatever, I submit this to you all: No soldier since perhaps Vietnam has given one hoot about his bayonet. They aren't dull because of any mandate from on high, they are dull because no one wants to take the time or put in the effort to sharpen them. Why? A good pocketknife is infinitely more useful than a bayonet, and there are better fighting knives out there. In the unlikely event that someone would lock bayonets and charge, it really doesn't matter if they are sharp or dull because all you want to do is stick someone. Rod-type bayonets had no edges and accomplished this feat with no problem, so why wouldn't a pointy, but dull, knife-type bayonet fulfill that task just as well? The truth of the matter for me was that my bayonet was nothing more than a nuisance.
Now, I can't speak historically on bayonets. Perhaps at one point there was considerably more thought and respect given to the average bayonet than what I witnessed, but I believe that modern warriors eschew the bayonet as nothing more than a PITA, with absolutely no thought given to dullness or sharpness and the impact thereof.
Erik M
December 31, 2009, 06:58 PM
I payed $9.99 for the AK bayonet that I own. It has seen the whetstone more than a few times and now pulls duty as a 4x4 abuse knife. I don't think she was ever valuable to start with.
As for something nice, say a quality k31 bayonet I wouldn't want to modify the blade just for antiquity's sake.
As for something nice, say a quality k31 bayonet I wouldn't want to modify the blade just for antiquity's sake.
Todd A
December 31, 2009, 07:08 PM
Lets see, here are a few(I don't feel like getting new photos of the ones I still own) that are sharp,and meant to be....
WWII Japanese Type 30
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/todda/100_0221.jpg
WWI German 98/05
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/todda/busch3.jpg
An oldie but heh,These were actually issued as a sidearm to troops who didn't rate a firearm..ie stretcher bearers, wagon drivers,etc..
1866 Chassepot
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/todda/100_0220.jpg
WWII Japanese Type 30
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/todda/100_0221.jpg
WWI German 98/05
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/todda/busch3.jpg
An oldie but heh,These were actually issued as a sidearm to troops who didn't rate a firearm..ie stretcher bearers, wagon drivers,etc..
1866 Chassepot
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v249/todda/100_0220.jpg
wheelgunslinger
January 1, 2010, 11:42 PM
cool pics.
Thanks for adding those.
The Chassepot is an interesting piece.
Thanks for adding those.
The Chassepot is an interesting piece.
John C
January 2, 2010, 02:30 AM
In my experience, bayonets were never sharpened for the same reason that soldiers, in combat today, are prohibited in some units from carrying fixed bladed knives: they might cut somebody with them, most likely themselves or another soldier!
It's the same reason that national guard soldiers had empty magazines in their M16s as they patrolled the airports after 9/11: they, God forbid, might shoot someone! Or the reason that the anti-aircraft gunners in Hawaii on December 7th, 1941 had no ammo for their guns, nor the keys to the ammunition lockers. I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
As to the original poster, don't worry about it. It's your bayonet, and your money. Do what you want with it. Don't worry about it and enjoy your stuff.
-John
It's the same reason that national guard soldiers had empty magazines in their M16s as they patrolled the airports after 9/11: they, God forbid, might shoot someone! Or the reason that the anti-aircraft gunners in Hawaii on December 7th, 1941 had no ammo for their guns, nor the keys to the ammunition lockers. I could go on and on, but you get my drift.
As to the original poster, don't worry about it. It's your bayonet, and your money. Do what you want with it. Don't worry about it and enjoy your stuff.
-John
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