[AcceptableUserName]

So, I've decided I have a place for a shorter than legal length PGO 500. This could include modifying my current one or purchasing one already set up this way. The gun will NOT have a stock. This may matter legally, it may not. It's intended to be a PGO only. I intend to modify mine or buy one that's cut down right to the end of the mag tube, so what 14.5 or so? Yeah.


How would I go about this? If I buy one of these used locally (I saw one for 450), how will the cost/transfer be any different? Would it be cheaper to buy one rather than get the clearance to modify one?

I know this has been asked for, but I'm looking for specialized information regarding what I want - from what I understand there's a disnction between a short pgo and short shotgun you have the permission to add a stock to.

[ArmedBear]

It is my understanding that a PGO shotgun that came from the factory PGO, and never had a buttstock on it, can be registered as an AOW with a shorter barrel ($5). Serbu does this. See this page for an explanation: http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php

I do not believe you can then put a buttstock on it. Then it would need to be registered and taxed per SBS rules ($200).

[NG VI]

A Serbu turned into an SBS would be pretty fun I think. Expensive and not super practical, but practical is overrated. And set up for Aguila mini-slugs it would be a cool little set-up.

[oneounceload]

I bought a 500 years ago with PGO. It can be shortened for the AOW designation and small tax stamp as opposed to making a SBS.

While Serbu's look very cool, I really can't imagine shooting 00 Buck out of it.

[CleverNickname]

The definition of a shotgun includes the phrase "fired from the shoulder" and the definition of an SBS includes "firearms made from shotguns", so in order to make a smoothbore AOW from a title I firearm, you have to start out with a shotgun-ish firearm that has never had a shoulder stock. AOWs are only $5 to transfer, but are $200 to manufacture so if you already have a title I smoothbore firearm that you want made into an AOW and you have a Class 2 manufacturer that's willing, you could transfer it to them as a title I firearm, they'd make it into an AOW and then transfer it back to you for $5, saving you $195 minus whatever they charge for the conversion.

Besides the minor cost savings, the only other advantage of an AOW over an SBS is that AOWs can be transported interstate without getting prior permission from the ATF. This is pretty easy to do though, so it's not a big advantage IMO. Unless you're in a state that allows AOWs but not SBSes (AL, WA and maybe a couple others), I'd go with an SBS over an AOW.

[zhyla]

Make sure you check your state laws. Many states (CA, for example) do not allow SBS under any circumstances.

My understanding is this is how it works:

- Pay for SBS status ($200?) and you can do anything you want to it regarding barrel length and stock.
- Pay for AOW status ($5) and you can merely take a shotgun that HAS NEVER BEFORE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME had a shoulder stock attached to it and shorten the barrel AND NEVER WILL UNTIL THE END OF TIME. A PGO shotty straight from the factory can be an AOW.
- Either way, once that tax has been paid on the gun it's permanent. If you buy a legally-existing SBS/AOW then it should already have its tax stamp paid and you're good to go.

If you really want to do this you want to look it up and become an expert.

Regarding the Serbu... I thought you needed 12" to get full burn out of standard 12ga shells? I'd like something in the 12-14" range some day (not legal presently where I live).

[Quiet]

It costs...
SBS/SBR = $200 tax stamp for making or transfering
AOW = $200 tax stamp for making or $5 tax stamp for transfering


Make sure you check your state laws. Many states (CA, for example) do not allow SBS under any circumstances.
If you checked CA state laws, you will have discovered that your statement about ownership of SBS under any circumstances in CA is incorrect.
C&R SBS [PC 12020(b)(7)] and AOWs [PC 12020(b)(8)] do not require a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit and are legal to own in CA.
If you can get a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit, you can legally own a modern SBS in CA [PC 12020(b)(2)].

[AcceptableUserName]

informative guys, thanks.

As for the Serbus, that's overkill. A pistol grip gun cut to the mag cap is the best you can do in a PGO weapon I would think. You still have good capacity at considerably reduced length. I'd make a Lupara out of a Stoeger LONG before I'd do the Serbu. Would be the same thing, just less complicated.



my states got great firearms laws. Probably as good as any. With an AOW transfer, what does the background checks/steps entail? Will I have to do the passport/fingerprint route same as on an SBS?

[ArmedBear]

A stock 870 with the barrel shortened to a grip cap with a sling swivel on it, with the muzzle out just far enough so that the sling doesn't naturally hang in front of the muzzle, can only be cut to about 14" (available as a regular shotgun in Canada BTW).

I'm not sure that, from a strictly practical viewpoint, it's really worth the trouble and expense, which is why this isn't the most common modification out there.

[CleverNickname]

With an AOW transfer, what does the background checks/steps entail? Will I have to do the passport/fingerprint route same as on an SBS?


The process for transferring an AOW is exactly the same as for an SBS, except for the $5 tax vs. $200 tax.

[zhyla]

If you checked CA state laws, you will have discovered that your statement about ownership of SBS under any circumstances in CA is incorrect.
C&R SBS [PC 12020(b)(7)] and AOWs [PC 12020(b)(8)] do not require a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit and are legal to own in CA.
If you can get a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit, you can legally own a modern SBS in CA [PC 12020(b)(2)].

You're right about the C&R exemption. I had forgotten about that For those of us in CA here is a good link that references all the relevant laws:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=82693

I'm not up on the C&R rules. Do Remington 870's/Mossberg 500's that are more than 50 years old count?


If you can get a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit, you can legally own a modern SBS in CA [PC 12020(b)(2)].

As far as I know the DOJ isn't issuing those, just like they're not issuing AW permits.

[AcceptableUserName]

It seems like the 870 would be shorter when cut to the mag cap and hold 5 (4+1) than the Mossberg (5+1). Am I wrong? I was going to ask this in another thread but forgot.


If I can do the whole AOW project for under 175, including barrel shortening labor, tax transfer/paperwork, new bead sight, everything I think I'll do it. There's a lot of firearms manufacturers in my area.