[c-bag]

Do you think the new generation of Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) or Polymer-tipped (Powrball) ammo will eventually replace jacketed hollowpoints?

From what i understand it's being touted as having the expansion qualities of traditional JHP while eliminating the (supposed) problems of unreliable feeding and debris in the tip stopping expansion.

or is it just hype?:D

thanks for the input.

[Preacherman]

I've tested both the Federal EFMJ and the Cor-Bon Pow'rBall in 9mm., .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The EFMJ showed adequate expansion in various test media, but a number of rounds (I'd say about 1 in 8) failed to expand or broke up completely. The Pow'rBall expanded every time, and was significantly higher velocity than the EFMJ.

I don't know that these rounds will replace JHP's. There are significant differences in application for various handgun users. For example, LEO's may need a high-penetration round to get through auto glass and/or auto bodies to hit felons inside a vehicle: for them, the new generation of bonded JHP's are probably superior. Civilian carry in high-traffic areas such as shopping malls, etc. might call for a round with rather less penetration than would be optimal for a LEO, to reduce the risk of over-penetration. For folks like this, a very light-for-caliber JHP (or the equivalent Cor-Bon Pow'rBall) would probably be optimum.

I think the major advantage to the EFMJ and Pow'rball rounds is that they are officially classified as soft-point, rather than hollow-point rounds. This means that if you're in a state like New Jersey, which completely bans the possession of hollow-point ammunition, you still have the option of an effective defensive round. Also, for guns with feeding problems, they remove a lot of malfunction issues.

[BluesBear]

Will EFMJ replace JHP? Not in our lifetime.

I do feel that it will become a viable option and more manufacturers will jump on the bandwagon and introduce their variations.

HP ammo relies on a suitable medium to fill the cavity and exert outward pressure to achieve expansion.

The EFMJ relies on suitable resistance to compress the nose and initiate expansion.

Both will work, but neither will work 100%.

JHP ammo will be with us for quite a while because it works. After all we still have 158gr RNL for .38 Special.

[only1asterisk]

I would use it if they could make it as consistant as the best JHP.

David

[Jim March]

The biggest problem the E-FMJ faces is that it's being loaded by Federal.

Federal consistently "wimps out" on powder charges, compared to anybody else. This is REALLY sad in the E-FMJ's case because one advantage it has is that it resists "over-speed problems"...the nosecone doesn't want to "shred". So they oughta get 'em MOVING, get a nice big "slap" going.

They're just...dang, I dunno, they think we're all idiots or something.

Cor-Bon is the opposite, they get wild without crossing over into "insane". (Usually - their 110 and 125 38+P are pretty dang hot, too much for "borderline +P guns" in my opinion.)

That said, it appears the Pow'R'Ball is a better basic concept than the E-FMJ. Hard to say for certain though, as the Cor-Bon powder charges are far gutsier.

Federal made their rep many years ago when they were the first with a really advanced JHP, the Hydrashock. Since then...heck with 'em, you won't catch that crap in MY guns unless there's nothing else available in a pinch :barf:. The exception: if I had a 9mm/40/45ACP carbine, I'd consider E-FMJs because they resist overspeed problems. If they were loaded to their real potential in a handgun-length barrel, they might come unglued in a carbine so their "basic gutlessness" actually pays off for that very unusual circumstance. (Tip: if you have a carbine in a revolver caliber like 357/44Mag/etc, run flat-nose hardcast or JSPs. Hollowpoints will fall apart in a way that doesn't help wound ballistics, better to go with a "big slap".)

[George Hill]

Pow'R'Ball's have been around for some time. This is what you do to improve performance in .25ACP rounds - so why not other calbers as well? It is a proven concept.
My only question is about accuracy...

[Hal]

Cor-Bon is the opposite Got that right!
Federal makes ammunition. Big C makes largely junk.

[BluesBear]

Hmmmm... :what:
Lemme pop some popcorn and pull up a chair.
This is gonna get really interesting. :scrutiny:

[Tomac]

I really like the concept of EFMJ: Fast and consistent expansion that's not dependent upon a design that can have reduced/no expansion due to a clogged/damaged HP or as dependent upon velocity for that expansion. It'll be interesting to see how this concept develops over the next few years (think of the current 1st gen EFMJ as SuperVel's first JHP design and how far JHP designs have evolved since then). I don't think EFMJ will replace JHPs but it's certainly a viable alternative (I use the 200gr +P EFMJ in my .45).
Tomac

[Graystar]

Federal consistently "wimps out" on powder charges, compared to anybody else. For 9mm, they make just one type of EFMJ, but its numbers are exactly the same as their hottest HydraShok JHP. For 45, the EFMJ is the only +P round, and has more energy than the HydraShok JHP rounds.

Only with the .40 do they break the pattern. The .40 EFMJ is in the middle of the HydraShok pack.

So if those power levels were acceptable for the Hydra-Shok line, I don't see why all of the sudden those levels aren't good enough for the EFMJs. You don't want your gun to blow up in your hand, do you??


BTW, My guess is that EFMJs will replace hollowpoints. Fairly quickly.

[ialevy]

Hollow points are not banned in New Jersey. It is just illegal to posses in comission of a crime. i.e., plinking at the range or driving there - OK, holding up a 7-11 with JHP's in you gat - Extra jail time.

The area of the law is extremely furry when it comes to thins like speeding or running a red ligh with a round in your pocket.

[newman32]

What ialevy said.

HPs are not banned in NJ, you just have to make sure you only have them @ home, @ the range, transporting from store to home, or home to range. Dont use them in commission of a crime (Law Abiding people don't have to worry about that anyway)

There seems to be great confusion regarding that in NJ, but I think LE likes it that way.

[FireInTheHole]

Anybody know when EFMJ bullets will become available to reloaders?

[Jim Watson]

A few days ago, everybody was all excited over the teaser in AH that Federal was going to replace HydraShok. With what? Buy the next issue and find out.

I have seen one picture on some forum of a box of Personal Defense EFMJ with 165 grain "rubbernose" instead of the 200 gr original. I doubt they will standardize on it throughout their lineup, it has to cost more to make and the prices on boutique ammo are getting out of sight already.

Federal once listed Hydrashok bullets for sale but never delivered. I doubt you will ever be able to buy loose EFMJ.

[George Hill]

newman32 - so basically you can't use them for personal defense work.

So what do you use them for? Plinking at the range? JHPs are a bit too spendy to just plink with.

Note: Add NJ to the list of States I will never move to...
Oh, wait... it's already on that list.

[BluesBear]

A few days ago, everybody was all excited over the teaser in AH that Federal was going to replace Hydra-Shok. With what? Buy the next issue and find out.
Replacie is the wrong word.
Federal is coming out with a new hollow point that will be announced at the SHOT Show. It will be called HST and won't have a post like Hyrda-Shok does.
And they have no plans to discontinue Hyrda-Shok.

[Graystar]

so basically you can't use them for personal defense work. Since when did personal defense become a crime? :confused:

[45R]

Federal consistently "wimps out" on powder charges, compared to anybody else.

Jim-
I had a excellent condition 1911 Kb while using Federal Ammo. The factory round was double charged. The 1911 took the blow but it was useless afterwords.


45R

[Kestrel]

Jim,

Is Federal also considered to be lower quality?

Thanks,
Steve

[Hal]

BluesBear,
Here's a crudy picture of what a 9mm big C looks like coming out of a CZ75b magazine.( I admit, my picture taking skills are on the same level as Cor Bon's ammuntion making skills) The "short" loaded 9mm is nose diving into the front of the magazine. It's the second round in the magazine. These rounds do this in both of my CZ mags, and all of my High Power mags.

Would you trust your life to that? I sure wouldn't.

To add further to the mess, this particular loading lacks a cannalure to prevent the bullet from being jammed even further into the case when it nose dives into the magazine.

Junk- pure junk.

There's a reason why overall length is something ammunition makers need to adhere to when making semi auto ammunition. As a handloader, I can tell you that most of the Cor Bon ammo I've looked at wouldn't make it past my final inspection and would end up in the scrap bucket. That, plus light bullets at high velocity don't impress me in the least. Some of their offerings border on the ridiculous. I mean come on, what possible use could there be for a 165 gr .44magnum,,,,@ roughly $.65 a pop to boot!
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=601418

[BluesBear]

Hey leave me out of this. I, as of yet, have said NOTHING for nor against Cor-Bon.
Nor any other brand of ammo in this thread.

[Preacherman]

I can't wait until Terry Murbach sees this thread... :D

[Kentucky Rifle]

Pow'R'balls come in .25ACP? They could replace the Magsafes in my Jetfire.

KR

[George Hill]

No, but Winchester was putting a BB in the nose of those little HP's decades ago. They are just like PoweRballs.

I used to know a guy in Virginia that takes those little .25's, pulls the bullet, and stokes it with more powder... For some reason I think I remember him using a shotgun flake powder or something. Then he would reload the slug with a good crimp. He used a Jetfire and an Astra Cub... the same Astra Cub I sold him, I think. So he was loading his .25s like +P+. I don't recommend that at all - pretty dangerous in my opinion. But this is what he did and what he carried. I went shooting with him a couple times, had his little .25s had a good bark to them.
The slugs all had good mushrooms going on. Certainly better than the factory load.

[GySgt]

Hey leave me out of this. I, as of yet, have said NOTHING for nor against Cor-Bon.
Well by God I will........
I used Federal for years, but I lost faith in HydraShok's a long time ago. Corbon on the other hand, has some of the hottest loadings around. Their 125 grain .357 loads are simply AWESOME and the .45 PowRball's function flawlessly and are accurate in all 4 of my 1911's, from my Government Model, to my Ultra Compacts and that's not been the case with all other ammo. I haven't tried the EFMJ's due to the test results I saw of David DeFabio's, showing that they failed to expand way too often.

[Missouri Mule]

I seriously doubt it.. Mainly because I don't like the light weight bullets.

[Intune]

My Glock 27 feeds Cor Bon perfectly. No hangups ever. I like light & fast, I don't have the same requirements from a round that LE may. Did I mention that Cor Bon is 100% reliable in my Glock? Just as long as AR15s and AK clones aren't mentioned in this thread... Oops!:rolleyes:

[MrAcheson]

I'm willing to bet the RCBD and Magsafes are going to replace them both eventually. More kinetic energy and the way the round fragments transforms it into amazing physical damage. The big issues with them can be penetration and the rounds "tripping" early due to impacts to extremities on the way to the COM. Both of these can be conquered with further engineering.

[ShaiVong]

http://www.ammoman.com/EPS/efmjgel.jpg

You have to admit though, thats a cool picture.

[jimmyjoebob]

I have been playing with the EFMJs a bit and so far I am impressed with them, I even started to carry them in 9mm ( 124gr +P vairety), I plan on trying out the 200gr+P 45s this weekend. However in 40, I stick to the Speer GoldDot, nothing says I love you like those fast moving, big barking, tactical ashtrays.:)

[Moparmike]

No, my new super-uberround will. I plan to develop a round that is the size of the caliber, but will expand and refuse to adhere to the Law of Conservation of Mass. When it hits, it will expand to the size and mass of a Greyhound Bus. But when carried, will have the weight of Cotton Candy.:D :rolleyes:

[DigMe]

No, my new super-uberround will. I plan to develop a round that is the size of the caliber, but will expand and refuse to adhere to the Law of Conservation of Mass. When it hits, it will expand to the size and mass of a Greyhound Bus. But when carried, will have the weight of Cotton Candy.


Sorry man you're too late, apparently RBCD and Extreme Shock have already done that.

brad cook

[Dorrin79]

I think that the Fed 124gr +P EFMJ is good stuff.

It's not neccessarily better than any other +P expanding ammo, but I don't think it's any worse, either.

Jim March - in general, I agree regarding Federal loadings. Their "personal defense" loads are extremely underpowered.

[BHPshooter]

Replace JHPs? Not in my range bag, they won't.

Personally, I like to sit on the sidelines and see what the new whiz-bang contraptions will do. I'm not too impressed with the mixed results with either PowRBalls or EFMJs.

I tend to prefer 115-gr. or higher in 9mm, so I'll just stick to JHPs (like Hornady's XTP) and FMJ.

I'll be watching, though.

Wes

[Sulaco]

I use CorBon defensive loads in all of my defensive guns and haven't had any problems with them in the years that I have been using them. I am a big fan of Pow'Rball and think it works very well. It has consistent expansion, is very accurate and super hot. What's not to like? Not to mention it's inherent ability to penetrate where a traditional hollowpoint may or may not. I admit, I have not seen any "out of spec" CorBon ammo, though. Maybe I am lucky in the hundreds of boxes I have purchased over the years...

[Urban Warrior]

NO.

[clubsoda22]

EFMJ's do not expand to as large a diameter as similar JHP's. Becuase of the silicon front core, the ullet is longer, reducing powder capacity, which is why +P EFMJ's only fly as fast as standard pressure 9mm's of the same weight. Also, a large precentage of them fail to expand or break apart.

Corbon Powerball is a good idea, but to work it requires light, fast bullets. The problem here is that of penetration. Corbon powerball tends to expand larger and with better consistency than EFMJ, that is, when it doesn't frag. corbon ammo does not have bonded jackets. Their high velocity rounds tend to loose their jackets and fragment. Not retaining their weight caused crappy penetration in tests.

Conversely, my winchester rangers fully expand almost all of the time. They are bonded so they retain their full weight nearly all the time. The reverse taper jacket gives all the penetration and expansion through barriers that the EFMJ and powerball offer. They are a good value for the price (much cheaper than powerball). They are available in standard pressure in 9mm (147gr) and .45 (230gr) and still offer good persormance in those loads.

What's the advantage to FMJ profile expanding rounds if your gun feeds reliably and you can carry JHP legally in your area?

[Sulaco]

Corbon Powerball is a good idea, but to work it requires light, fast bullets. The problem here is that of penetration. Corbon powerball tends to expand larger and with better consistency than EFMJ, that is, when it doesn't frag. corbon ammo does not have bonded jackets. Their high velocity rounds tend to loose their jackets and fragment. Not retaining their weight caused crappy penetration in tests.

Proof?

Here's mine.

http://www.ammolab.com/corbon_prb_45.htm

[clubsoda22]

here's mine

http://www.thegunzone.com/powrball.html

[jimmyjoebob]

dude, using anything by dean speir as a defense, is like having PeeWee Herman as your Defense Attorney during a murder trial, I hardly consider him a better source than ammolab

[PCRCCW]

ROFLMAO...............:D

To answer the original question...........NO!

Shoot well.

[Sulaco]

Ok, I will be nice. :)

I suggest you do some research on both individuals we have referenced here. ;)

[clubsoda22]

um, yeah, i happen to know david difabio and have bought several guns through him.

I had to see what he said about speir's tests, he said that speir and peter pi don't get along and that speir used pre-production rounds. Newer rounds don't have nearly as much core seperation. Though because of the light bullet, the Powerball has good but not great penetration.

This is not to say that difabio isn't without his biases. If you talk to him long enough you'll find he has a strong bias towards 1911's. He also did a good job selling me my bersa calling the .380 pitiful choice for self defence. I bought it anyway.

Either way, he's a cool guy with a lot of experiance, though he won't let me shoot handguns in his range without a parent, despite the fact that i am of legal age. (Law he thinks exists)